Accel World - Episode 15 Discussion / Poll

[Dark Wing]

Here is what I don't get people are constantly talking about how this situation could, would, or should be handled. However I have to ask have any of you all ever been accused of a crime or wrong doing that you did not commit?

Trust me when I say the majority of people are quick judge you in light of accusations no matter how big or small they may be and all someone has to do is point a finger.

[Reckoner]

Originally Posted by monir

For whatever it's worth, I agree.

People in this thread weren't fuming at the Haru's character development. It's the all too convenient plot device to stir the plot which is a bit stretching. Other than some of the most basic human element, we shouldn't be able to relate to Haru. Yeah, at that age most of us are walking/breathing issues, but with the integration of that world with technology along with other social factors which aren't that obvious, we shouldn't be able to guess how it is developing the adolescent mind. Haru's world and circumstances are much different. His age doesn't help the argument much either considering the blackmailer is probably younger than him.

For me, all this had to take place because the plot required it. How it came about is what I don't like. And like a lot of people in the thread, understanding where Haru is coming from doesn't help at all at how it was brought about.

Ah yes, the fact that there are bad people in this world who will try to harm you based on their selfish wish to gain more power in AW was not an already established phenomena.

The idea that kuroyukihime would be absent from school for some time is a possibility that stretches our imagination beyond our limits.

The fact that some ass hole like Noumi would use this absence as a good time to approach and make a move on her subordinates was completely out of the question.

The threat of the blackmail potentially causing a huge stir up in Haru's life, regardless of how it would really turn out in the end, was something Haru was not willing to entertain is simply too ridiculous.

Haru losing a fight he was in complete control of due to some overconfidence was something too convenient.

This somehow invalidates the development Haru is getting, mmhmmm.

[Dr. Casey]

Reckoner's post summarizes better than I could have why the episode doesn't come across as being forced or contrieved to me. To me 'forced' would be like if a random meteor saved the day by falling down on Noumi right as he was messing around with Haru or Chiyu, or something. To AnimeSuki, something being contrieved is... uh... I don't even know... anything and everything? I don't even know where to begin, both because this episode's detractors speak in such broad, general terms that I don't even know when they're coming from when they cry 'Deus Ex Machina' (I guess because they're in such a rage over how awful and terrible Haru was in this episode that they simply don't have the capacity to think straight) and because their criticisms towards things I find perfectly okay are so aggressive and over-the-top that I find it hard to imagine they're not simply being impossible to please.

Seriously, not everything that depends upon any degree of chance or luck (good or otherwise) is forced, manipulative, etc. People don't have to cry out "THIS IS SUCH DEUS EX MACHINA BULLSHIT, WAY TO STRETCH MY SUSPENSION OF DISBELIEF YOU TERRIBLE WRITER" every time something that requires good, or bad, timing happens. This morning, I was almost late to school because my Alzheimer's-ridden grandmother woke up right as it was time for me to leave. Back in 1971, my dad's best friend at the time got worked up because my dad couldn't find the 'hot chick' at this one party that the friend was trying to point out, to which he responded with "Hell, Jack, it's not like I'm going to marry the girl or anything." (The girl was my mom; Daddy first spoke to her a few weeks later, they started dating, and they're still together 41 years later.) Things just falling into place a certain way because all the right pieces come together at the right time should not stretch anyone's suspension of disbelief. That's simply how everyday life works, the way it's always worked for everyone and probably always will.

[relentlessflame]

Well, I would concede that the confluence of circumstances driving the plot is certainly convenient, and the extent of the breakdown we see as a result is pretty extreme. Perhaps it's partly because it happens over so few episodes, so everything seems really abbreviated.

I suspect that part of it is because we all know that this is much ado about nothing. Noumi is, at best, a low-level mid-boss, and is certainly going to be defeated one way or another. If the characters in the story could see that, of course, there would be no plot. As a character, Noumi is little more than a means to an end for Haru's character development. Perhaps if people found him more genuinely menacing, and if the stars hadn't aligned in such a perfect way, they might not consider the plot to be so "contrived" (even though it personally didn't bother me as much as some others).

[Bahamut]

Spoiler for ...a stranger's opinion...:

...if only those previous scenes of haru saying he will devote himself to kuroyuki-hime...protect chiyu...and the scene where he saved taku when they fought empathizing friendship...if they didnt make itso dramatic and life-changing for him it wouldnt have been such a big deal to see his backbone crumble so easily...

...but then again hes just a kid...i was emo when i was his age...i remember i broke mirrors with my fists...carried tools and took apart half a baseball diamond...made a claw weapon from compasses and threw a knife at some stupid kid (he ran out and luckily the door closed behind him...i would have regretted that)

...basically kids are stupid...i was too...kids will make mistakes but they will learn from it...
...when haru gets over this i just hope we dont see another mental break-down like this without a real fight from him...

...but chances are there will probably another moment like this concerning kuroyuki-hime somewhere near the end?

[Haak]

I don't know what you guys are talking about but the reason I say some events are contrived is not because they're too convenient but because they simply don't make sense whatsoever.

It doesn't make sense for Haru not to tell Taku about the letter beforehand.

Noumi's blackmailing plan has too many holes for it to actually work or make sense.

It doesn't make sense for Haru to just stop punching the crap out of Noumi for the sake of using his wings (And no there's no actual suggestion that he was overconfident).

And whilst it makes sense that Haru would feel so ashamed about losing his wings that he can't even bring himself to tell Taku about what happened, it's actually brought in rather suddenly because I never once thought he was overconfident about his wings beforehand. That's not to say there's no development this way whatsoever. When Haru actually lost wings and he was shocked we were given flashbacks showing how much he cared about them so I was actually thinking "Wow dude, that must suck. I feel for you". But the problem is that the degree to which they did it was never going to satisfy what we were going to see later. It was too little for me.

[Dr. Casey]

Originally Posted by Haak

I don't know what you guys are talking about but the reason I say some events are contrived is not because they're too convenient but because they simply don't make sense whatsoever.

To clarify, my post actually wasn't in reference to anything you've said; some posters in here are bad and they should feel bad (And my posts are aimed at them), but your posts are good and you should feel good.

[Kaioshin Sama]

Originally Posted by Dr. Casey

Reckoner's post summarizes better than I could have why the episode doesn't come across as being forced or contrieved to me. To me 'forced' would be like if a random meteor saved the day by falling down on Noumi right as he was messing around with Haru or Chiyu, or something. To AnimeSuki, something being contrieved is... uh... I don't even know... anything and everything? I don't even know where to begin, both because this episode's detractors speak in such broad, general terms that I don't even know when they're coming from when they cry 'Deus Ex Machina' (I guess because they're in such a rage over how awful and terrible Haru was in this episode that they simply don't have the capacity to think straight) and because their criticisms towards things I find perfectly okay are so aggressive and over-the-top that I find it hard to imagine they're not simply being impossible to please.

Seriously, not everything that depends upon any degree of chance or luck (good or otherwise) is forced, manipulative, etc. People don't have to cry out "THIS IS SUCH DEUS EX MACHINA BULLSHIT, WAY TO STRETCH MY SUSPENSION OF DISBELIEF YOU TERRIBLE WRITER" every time something that requires good, or bad, timing happens. This morning, I was almost late to school because my Alzheimer's-ridden grandmother woke up right as it was time for me to leave. Back in 1971, my dad's best friend at the time got worked up because my dad couldn't find the 'hot chick' at this one party that the friend was trying to point out, to which he responded with "Hell, Jack, it's not like I'm going to marry the girl or anything." (The girl was my mom; Daddy first spoke to her a few weeks later, they started dating, and they're still together 41 years later.) Things just falling into place a certain way because all the right pieces come together at the right time should not stretch anyone's suspension of disbelief. That's simply how everyday life works, the way it's always worked for everyone and probably always will.

Yes thank you! I'm sorry but so much this. It's not just animesuki though, it's what's going on in general right now. I tend to refer to it as "picky choosy" because it seems like these things people are taking issue with and the conditions applied to what can be considered good writing could apply to just about any show at any time if people wanted. It's almost like certain shows get selected for a certain kind of reception/treatment while others get a by. I'd say it applies to certain genres more than anything, but then I see it everywhere and at random now so I'd say it applies more to the person and their current mood.

I'm sorry but when it becomes a bad thing to have the plot set up in such a way as to serve an end and when you start debating what's convenient and forced in such general manner as is being done here you don't leave many options as to what can be considered sensical/good writing.

Anyway to me it looks like this started off as an argument about whether Haru's actions are justified to discussing the mechanics behind whether they make sense, but I think what the real issue is is whether they've allowed them to make sense. It almost feels like Accel World has suddenly become the lightning rod for issues some people have with Light Novel writing in general (believe me I have my share) as opposed to issues that are unique to Accel World proper. The fact that I don't see that huge a difference between how Accel World gets laid out and how a lot of other LN adaptations get laid out (other than I frankly find it much better paced and far more suited to my tastes in style and content than the average sci-fi action LN adaptation) makes me think that the real spark lies in the fact that the characters are at a low point both in terms of confidence and their character (personality) and a whole lot of things happening at once has led to it.

Let me see if I can break this all down even further. What we have here reminds me of a classic martial arts movie plotline. The scenario is the one where the master (KYH) is away and the students are left in charge (Taku/Haru) of the dojo (the school) and for the first time the student has to act on his own (Haru telling KYH that he'll take care of things). The master is not there to instruct him, he can't go to her for advice and concurrently there's a challenger (Noumi) come to usurp the dojo and steal the students away (in this case it's Noumi's whole blackmailing scheme). The student is challenged to a fight and in his overconfidence he is lured into a trap and loses to a hidden technique and is forced to abdicate the dojo and his honor (in this case Haru's wings). He feels he has let the master down, he felt he had reached a certain level but finds that he came up short in this instance and is humiliated and can't bear to face the master, fearing he isn't worthy. He begins to wonder if his confidence was really his at all (KYH's absence makes this possible) and whether he can actually defeat the challenger at his level of skill at all. Just as he's about to give up an old friend appears and he's offered the chance to learn a new technique from a hermit (Sky Raker) that could give him an edge.

This is about where we are in this pretty common martial arts flick styled arc, all that obviously remains is for the student to struggle through mastering the new technique, finding the confidence he needs and going back to challenge the usurper and win his honor (wings) back. In all honesty it also kind of reminds me a LOT of the Rocky III plot too where Rocky had risen to the top of his game and is overconfident (he hasn't realized that Micky has been supporting him in the shadows and fixing his matches so as to give him easy challengers) but suddenly things go wrong, his support is gone (Micky dead, Paulie arguining with him, Adrian ) and he loses his confidence (Micky gets hurt before the big fight and can't be there to coach him so he gets distracted and loses the title) and is the underdog again to a hungry challenger (Mr. T) who is kind of a dick and goaded him into fighting by threatening to move in on his girl (Adrian). Just when he's about to give up and call it a career an old rival (Apollo Creed) comes by and tells him he's better than that and takes him to see his master (Duke) who teaches him new techniques to compensate for the ones that he's lost so that he can have an edge again when he goes to try and regain the title.

Now here's the catch though, does one find the above two scenarios and Accel World's current arc contrived, or does one find it merely a common story arc suited to fit the sci-fi/gamer/high school drama angle that is Accel World. To me it could easily be either depending on the mentality of the poster and I think that's what we're seeing here in this debate.

[OPN]

I thought this episode was great. I can understand where haru is coming from and i don't mind it at all hell i think it was done quite nicely. What made the episode was none other then ASH BROLLER !!! I'm surprised how much of a bro he was too haru and next episode looks to be interesting .

[monir]

Originally Posted by Reckoner

This somehow invalidates the development Haru is getting, mmhmmm.

If bottom line makes it all okay in the end, then no, it doesn't invalidate his development. But if you think otherwise even for a second based on how the event played out, then the above indeed invalidates his development just because it is given Haru will have to ascent from where he is with or without his wings. We'll know in the upcoming episodes at how will that play out, but I'm also pretty positive I'll be rolling my eyes at least once when Haru comes out on top on the merit of those qualities he was conveniently lacking just episode or two ago, the same qualities he has displayed several times all on his own in incident like the fight against Cyan Pile, or when Kurohime was about to get hit by a car. The glaring deficiency of this episode may become even clearer when Haru comes out on top in the later episodes.

Yeah, I've got all of those points you've made in your post, and I've mentioned and acknowledged them more than once in this thread. Yet, I can't still accept the way those points are made for several reason that was painfully obvious as the episode played out. Just because I can rationalize or can see the underlying message, doesn't mean I'll have to accept it. That's all I can offer.

[Reckoner]

I have no problem if you can't accept the story, what I am arguing against is this perpetration that the writing is somehow deeply flawed because it created all sorts of characterization or plot hole issues. Maybe this isn't what you're essentially arguing, if I am wrong please correct me here, but I got the impression that this is what you and many others were trying to say to justify your dislike of it.

We already established earlier in this thread what the plot is trying to get at. Some people argued this was poor characterization because they perceived it as a regression in character, to which many of us argued on the contrary while this is a temporary setback, it is ultimately a progression in character if the arc pans out like suspected.

Then people started saying they can't care about the idea because of the execution of the plot. Things like plot holes and what not, to which now I've also pointed out why I think these claims are ridiculous to me because I have yet to see a convincing argument about it.

All of which this leads me to believe that people just don't like the ideas of the story her fundamentally. If that is case, not much to really say. I don't see a problem with it personally and this comes down to your own subjective tastes in the end. But if you sit here and try to explain to me that there's somehow a flaw in the writing's execution to the degree that the thread is arguing, then I can only scoff at that. The writing has been very linear and easy to follow, with logical progressions in characterization to boot.

IMO if there is anything that has weakened this arc at all,and the only place I can sympathize to a degree with the critics here (Since I'm not terribly impressed by this arc in comparison to others mind you), it's the whole idea of the blackmailing surrounding something like him tricking Haru to go into the girl's bathroom. I think the idea wasn't bad, the idea of blackmailing, but they could've come up a with more convincing matter to do it with.

[monir]

Originally Posted by Reckoner

IMO if there is anything that has weakened this arc at all,and the only place I can sympathize to a degree with the critics here (Since I'm not terribly impressed by this arc in comparison to others mind you), it's the whole idea of the blackmailing surrounding something like him tricking Haru to go into the girl's bathroom. I think the idea wasn't bad, the idea of blackmailing, but they could've come up a with more convincing matter to do it with.

The backlash for this episode in this thread anyway mostly stems from there. It also undermines somewhat to Haru's already shaky personality and his characterization considering the previous arc has already fleshed out some of Haru's personality trait and qualities. Your last sentence pretty much sums up my dissatisfaction with the episode. Like I said before, while I understand the need to give Haru's character a jolt to move him up to the next stage, I wasn't too keen on how it was accomplished.

[Triple_R]

Well, what we have in this arc is basically an average superhero comic book plot.

The villain's scheme is a bit half-baked. Not downright horrible, but not exactly ironclad either.

So it's slightly disappointing that the hero is not taking advantage of the holes in the villain's scheme. There's a slight touch of characters being dragged along by the plot here.

But really, I've seen much worse (Lex Luthor has done things that makes Noumi's scheme look totally fine and positively restrained ). There's times I think we anime fans have been spoiled a bit when it comes to airtight plots. I think we've been spoiled a bit by the Gen Urobuchis of the world. Part of the reason Madoka Magica and Fate/Zero are so great is because they have remarkably few plot holes in spite of having complex plots and massively dangerous plot devices (massively dangerous from a writer's perspective I mean - it's so very easy to screw up a wish-based plot device, for example). But they're the exception, not the rule, when it comes to plot-heavy narratives.

In most plot-heavy narratives you're going to have a bit of contrivance, a bit of convenience, a bit of "that's not really the smartest thing he could have done...".
It's not bad. It's just average. Take a point or two off in episode ratings, but otherwise let it slide. That's my approach anyway.


So yeah, I totally see where Haak is coming from, but it's not worth saying "Accel World is crap" or anything like that. Accel World is still a very enjoyable show with a moderate amount of plot contrivance, which is normal for a plot heavy show.

Relentlessflame is right about the "mid-boss" feel that Noumi gives off, and that's probably part of the issue here for some viewers. But then, I never expected this show to just blitzkrieg through all the Kings, and that's pretty much what it would have to do if it didn't have KYH head off for awhile. That, or nerf KYH in some contrived fashion... and honestly, that would be worse, imo.

Just accept this "in between" arc for what it is, and hopefully it'll do some good, lasting character development (that's how a lot of these "in between" arcs are handled, after all).

[relentlessflame]

Originally Posted by monir

It also undermines somewhat to Haru's already shaky personality and his characterization considering the previous arc has already fleshed out some of Haru's personality trait and qualities.

This is the only part that I still don't really understand.

Of course, the strength to defeat this mid-boss comes from within, and no matter what Sky Raker has to say, it'll no doubt amount to "believe in yourself" deep down (whether she shows him some other technique or not). But, I think that him losing sight of that fact makes sense because he legitimately believes he is powerless right now:

1. He is being bullied in the real world, and he feels trapped. (Some of this is old unresolved trauma coming to the surface again.)
2. Kuroyukihime is not there to save him this time (and she's someone he admires and believes in, and who saved him (twice) in the past).
3. He feels responsible for dragging Chiyu into this, and feels that he can't protect her.
4. He lost his wings, which represent his special power/ability in the Accelerated World.

As the last arc said, losing your will to fight can be a powerful force, and this is building on that fact (last time it struck Kuroyukihime, and now it's striking Haruyuki). I can grant that the bullying/blackmail is a bit flimsy (as we already discussed in previous episode threads), but I can also see that it might seem real and menacing to him. So... how exactly does it undermine his character development?

All the rest seems okay to me, but this particular leap I still can't follow.

To be clear, I too have some problems with this arc (though I liked the way the emotions played out in the first half of this episode -- I liked the direction of that first part), but I still have a hard time understanding some of the specific criticisms being raised.

[Haak]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

So yeah, I totally see where Haak is coming from, but it's not worth saying "Accel World is crap" or anything like that. Accel World is still a very enjoyable show with a moderate amount of plot contrivance, which is normal for a plot heavy show.

Yeah that's the same for me as well actually. It's a problem for sure but in the grander scheme of things, I've seen worse and I can still enjoy the show.

[monir]

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

This is the only part that I still don't really understand.

But, I think that him losing sight of that fact makes sense because he legitimately believes he is powerless right now:

1. He is being bullied in the real world, and he feels trapped. (Some of this is old unresolved trauma coming to the surface again.)
2. Kuroyukihime is not there to save him this time (and she's someone he admires and believes in, and who saved him (twice) in the past).
3. He feels responsible for dragging Chiyu into this, and feels that he can't protect her.
4. He lost his wings, which represent his special power/ability in the Accelerated World..

When I was mentioning "previous arc", I was harping on the Cyanpile arc which I didn't elaborate on, but did mention Cyanpile several times in my previous posts. You've to give that there are uncanny similarities between how this arc is playing out and Cyanpile arc did. When he fought Cyanpile, 1 and 2 listed above clearly were issues he was dealing with. Remember that Kuroyukihime was just as incapacitated in that arc. 3 also fits into it because, once again, he is trying to protect someone who is special to him. 4 is the only thing that seperates this arc to Cyanpile's. Despite the similarities between these two event, Haru come out on top in the first one. If he doesn't win his fight against Cyanpile, that was the end of Kurohime. In the second he needs to lose the fight so he will eventually lose his wings. The significance here is the psychological make up of Haru is pretty much the same in both of those arc, and yet you've two different result. He won his fight against Cyanpile because he has found an edge through desperation ( a character development ). In this arc, Haru loses his fight (and his wings) because there is no edge which undermines his character development even though both arc shares some important traits listed above in your post.

And when I start to think about how he may overcome his current foe in the absensce of Kurohime in the upcoming episode (haven't seen 16 yet), the only answer that comes to me is that he will rediscover his edge that was lacking earlier. My point is pretty much that a good character development occurs naturally which takes into account all advances made previously on such character. In this case, however, the plot is scripted to fit the progression of the story rather than letting it happen which tend to navigate character development naturally and without omitting any development that has already taken place. Haru's character development here is forced to reach a certain outcome and to get to that outcome, some of his character development we've already recognized in the Cyanpile arc had to be undermined. I've no doubt he will "fly again with or without his wings", but only because he will rediscover his edge, a set of development that was already there and didn't need any discovering.

Like I said a few times already, yes, I can rationalize why Haru should be acting this way in this arc.... it still doesn't mean I'll accept it.... because I've already seen a different set of outcome with the same set of condition bestowed upon Haru.

And while I'm at it, I'll just go ahead and say it already.... this isn't good writing. *ducks tomatoes* The script is pretty basic which is pretty much there to instigate a reaction more than anything else. And judging from how most of the post expressed their take on the episode, I'd say those reactions are more appropriate and called for than the ones who are trying to understand Haru. And that's you too Relentless. Just say it with me, "I've seen better."

[novalysis]

Just watch 16. I look forward to your comments on 16, because I don't really think 15 should be treated as a self-contained story in itself.

It's worth noting that Noumi is in no way a known quantity. There is no prospect of KYH returning swiftly. Haru is a boy with horrendously low self-esteem, and needs others to strengthen his backbone. If Haru was female, what Noumi did to him would be quite similar to rape. Whatever development Haru has undergone is not enough for him to deal with someone like Noumi (yes, as mid-grade boss villain material he is) solo.

I prefer not to take a reductionist view and treat each episode as a self-contained story anyway, so I think throwing egg-tarts at Haru , or the author, Kawahara is premature until we see this arc play out to it's ultimate conclusion.

[Kaioshin Sama]

Originally Posted by monir

And while I'm at it, I'll just go ahead and say it already.... this isn't good writing. *ducks tomatoes* The script is pretty basic which is pretty much there to instigate a reaction more than anything else. And judging from how most of the post expressed their take on the episode, I'd say those reactions are more appropriate and called for than the ones who are trying to understand Haru. And that's you too Relentless. Just say it with me, "I've seen better."

Hmmm...appealing to the majority is the weakest of all possible argumentative strategies in my eyes. Just because a voice is louder doesn't make their points any more applicable or valid and frankly I'd worry less about what other people think and just stick to what you think and the point you're trying to make. Super weak argument here and I can't help but still feel that people and specifically you here are taking out grievances over things that happen in many a show and applying it specifically to Accel World because it's the cool thing to do for certain parts of this arc, which is why I keep coming back to the label of "picky/choosy" here. There's nothing specifically wrong with the character development of Haru, it's that people have chosen to make a stand here because they feel they need to in order to go with the flow of the rage that they've been told is supposed to come with the arc.

Really still can't help but think that Dr. Casey is 100% right and that swap out Haru for any other character....hell even swap out his design and voice and the reaction here would be that much more mild. I've seen this sort of thing argued over before a bit, but rarely such a blowup and the only factor that's really different here is that it's fat little Haru. There's so many developments for so many other more shall we say "treasured" main characters that I could spin as "forced" if I really wanted to, but why bother unless it's something I'm truly bothered by or actually feel I've been disenfranchised by witnessing happen.

Anyway this episode has passed and from the next episode we're already seeing Haru take a different altogether new path so I'm tempted to say this argument is more or less becoming obsolete. I still say it's a whole lot of blood, sweat, anger and tears over a whole lot of nothing and that people overreacted big time like they always seem to when things don't go the way they expected them to or in the most entitled of scenarios the way they wanted them too. I'm sure I'll see even worse next week as well.

P.S: I'd probably be willing to acknowledge some of the posters grievances here if they actually own them more instead of trying to project it back onto the show as it's fault and that's it's all because of the shows "bad writing" and nothing at all to do with how they are perceiving it. Now of course people have to actual try to prove this point since they've taken it up and frankly I don't think they've been doing a very good job of convincing anyone.

Originally Posted by novalysis

Just watch 16. I look forward to your comments on 16, because I don't really think 15 should be treated as a self-contained story in itself.

It's worth noting that Noumi is in no way a known quantity. There is no prospect of KYH returning swiftly. Haru is a boy with horrendously low self-esteem, and needs others to strengthen his backbone. If Haru was female, what Noumi did to him would be quite similar to rape. Whatever development Haru has undergone is not enough for him to deal with someone like Noumi (yes, as mid-grade boss villain material he is) solo.

I prefer not to take a reductionist view and treat each episode as a self-contained story anyway, so I think throwing egg-tarts at Haru , or the author, Kawahara is premature until we see this arc play out to it's ultimate conclusion.

Agree, can't help but think that again people are getting a little too into the heat of the moment of the arc they've already been sold as being "rage-inducing" and are getting ahead of themselves, but if there's something I've learned of late it's that asking people to exhibit patience when it comes to ongoing narratives like Accel Worlds it's unfortunately probably asking to much. We live in the reality where angry fanboys wants what they wants and they wants it now or else they get cranky dagnabbit.

[relentlessflame]

Originally Posted by monir

And judging from how most of the post expressed their take on the episode, I'd say those reactions are more appropriate and called for than the ones who are trying to understand Haru. And that's you too Relentless. Just say it with me, "I've seen better."

I think it is a bit a lot convenient for you to declare your own point of view as the "more appropriate reaction", and then to "call me out" about it. I think you are assuming a lot when you propose that the ostensibly-similar reactions of others are rooted in the same logic that you are employing. I'm not convinced that most people gave their initial reaction much thought at all.

Now, to your point. In my view, the only reason this third arc can happen is because of the way Haru gained his powers in the first arc, which is no less of a "because the plot requires" than what we saw here.

Cyan Pile arc:
- Haru is on the verge of defeat; all hope is lost
- He vows to keep on fighting because it's the only thing he can do
- He conveniently gains his wings at the moment of his greatest need
- He uses his wings to win the fight

Dusk Taker arc:
- Haru is being harassed and things look bad, but he fundamentally believes he can win in the Accelerated World because of his wings, and will show his opponent a thing a two
- He makes a tactical error and allows Dusk Taker to use his special ability
- He loses the wings right when he thought things were going in his favour
- He is devastated and can't find the will to keep fighting

So I suppose you could say "in the first arc, when he was down in the dirt, he still found the will to fight, so why not here?" But I think it's precisely because time has passed and he remembers that, before he had his wings, he was hopeless. (He only won that fight after he got his wings; to that point he was losing soundly.) It's different to find inner strength when you have nothing than it is to remember that when you just lost the symbol and manifestation of that very power/strength. So this is why it's important for Haru to go back to having nothing again. It's a story of appreciating what you have, and him understanding that his wings were never really the source of his power (or why he really won that first fight) in the first place. If it weren't for the exact way the first arc developed, the development here wouldn't make any sense.

So I don't think that this is a step backwards for his character development, but rather something that builds progressively on what we've already seen. It does very much "take into account all advances made previously on [his] character". Of course, as I said, I certainly concede that him needed to lose that fight was no less contrived than him needing to win the fight with Cyan Pile. And if you want to make an argument, as some did, that Dusk Taker's bullying is flimsy and seemingly easy-to-defeat, I can certainly entertain that (I said something similar in the previous week's thread). But I think it is perfectly reasonable -- and yes more appropriate -- for people to see how the overall plot development builds on the previous arcs than to claim that it's a regression of character. Whether I've "seen better" is totally irrelevant to that argument.

[monir]

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

I think it is a bit a lot convenient for you to declare your own point of view as the "more appropriate reaction", and then to "call me out" about it.

Finally someone has said it. Yes, that's exactly the point which highlights much of the argument of this thread because some reactions are considered more appropriate than others based on subjective understanding. Lot of us are guilty of that including me and you've my apology for calling you out to make that point.

I think you are assuming a lot when you propose that the ostensibly-similar reactions of others are rooted in the same logic that you are employing. I'm not convinced that most people gave their initial reaction much thought at all.

That in itself is a pretty presumptuous too if I may say so. I've posted similar reaction based on the visual portrayal of a story in many threads. I was also confident most of the time that I would be able to trace back step by step as to why I felt in a certain way at the time even if I didn't write much initially. An articulated point of view carry more weight in an argument, but it doesn't mean it's okay to automatically invalidate a reaction because it comes across not as well thought out based on how it was expressed. Actually it kinds of explain why there is always (and will be) posts that are raging about "rage posting" or why some posts expresses surprise by certain set of views. From my point of view, those sort of take usually stems from the mixture of the unwillingness to see or unable to understand where the opposing view may be coming from, or simply don't have the patience to even consider why such view can be or should be held. Before you get me wrong..... this is definitely not an accusation, rather an observation on my part that I've come to understand slowly over the years. I was more entertained in the thread than the episode, and I was equally curious when you said that you were taken back by some of the reaction. I was wondering why because you did come to understand the message, so why wouldn't you be able to understand where these initial reactions were coming from? The truth is, both point have merits... well, as of episode 15 anyway. I don't think the episode conveyed the understanding few of you took from it and thought the initial reaction made more sense from the context.

Now, to your point. In my view, the only reason this third arc can happen is because of the way Haru gained his powers in the first arc, which is no less of a "because the plot requires" than what we saw here.

Cyan Pile arc:
- Haru is on the verge of defeat; all hope is lost
- He vows to keep on fighting because it's the only thing he can do
- He conveniently gains his wings at the moment of his greatest need
- He uses his wings to win the fight

Dusk Taker arc:
- Haru is being harassed and things look bad, but he fundamentally believes he can win in the Accelerated World because of his wings, and will show his opponent a thing a two
- He makes a tactical error and allows Dusk Taker to use his special ability
- He loses the wings right when he thought things were going in his favour
- He is devastated and can't find the will to keep fighting

So I suppose you could say "in the first arc, when he was down in the dirt, he still found the will to fight, so why not here?" But I think it's precisely because time has passed and he remembers that, before he had his wings, he was hopeless. (He only won that fight after he got his wings; to that point he was losing soundly.) It's different to find inner strength when you have nothing than it is to remember that when you just lost the symbol and manifestation of that very power/strength. So this is why it's important for Haru to go back to having nothing again. It's a story of appreciating what you have, and him understanding that his wings were never really the source of his power (or why he really won that first fight) in the first place. If it weren't for the exact way the first arc developed, the development here wouldn't make any sense.

Allow me to summarize our disagreemnet in few sentences. I consider the visual translation of the story in episode 15 to drive home the message rather a poor one. You don't. I'm willing to assign criticism at how it is written to achieve why Haru has acted the way he has. You are acknowledging a weakness which is used to flesh out Haru's development, but still willing to move on because you've got the end-message.

So I don't think that this is a step backwards for his character development, but rather something that builds progressively on what we've already seen. It does very much "take into account all advances made previously on [his] character". Of course, as I said, I certainly concede that him needed to lose that fight was no less contrived than him needing to win the fight with Cyan Pile. And if you want to make an argument, as some did, that Dusk Taker's bullying is flimsy and seemingly easy-to-defeat, I can certainly entertain that (I said something similar in the previous week's thread). But I think it is perfectly reasonable -- and yes more appropriate -- for people to see how the overall plot development builds on the previous arcs than to claim that it's a regression of character. Whether I've "seen better" is totally irrelevant to that argument.

The idea behind episode 15 was to deconstruct Haru to set up further plot progression which require a new Haru to emerge from the ashes so he can face off stronger opponent who has yet to appear while at the same time getting a boost in character-confidence and further his development. Yes, a deconstruction took place in this episode, but to me it came at an expense.

Originally Posted by novalysis

Just watch 16. I look forward to your comments on 16, because I don't really think 15 should be treated as a self-contained story in itself.

I don't know if you had the pleasure of reading through some of our posts, but it mostly stemmed from if the initial reactions are fair or not from the context of the episode. Some of us thought there was nothing wrong with it, others felt the reactions are inappropriate because either they didn't understand what's taking place or just "rage posting" to quote Kaio.

It's worth noting that Noumi is in no way a known quantity. There is no prospect of KYH returning swiftly. Haru is a boy with horrendously low self-esteem, and needs others to strengthen his backbone. If Haru was female, what Noumi did to him would be quite similar to rape. Whatever development Haru has undergone is not enough for him to deal with someone like Noumi (yes, as mid-grade boss villain material he is) solo.

Agreed! I'm just arguing that episode 15 may have undermined some of those points and development to achieve the deconstruction of his character.

I prefer not to take a reductionist view and treat each episode as a self-contained story anyway, so I think throwing egg-tarts at Haru , or the author, Kawahara is premature until we see this arc play out to it's ultimate conclusion.

How this plays out in the future remains to be seen, but that said, I think I'm allowed to make an assessment of the writing after watching 15 episodes and I'm certainly not basing such opinion on episode 15 alone. As I said, I watched all 15 episodes before concluding the writing is rather average and I have seen better. The show is still enjoyable because Haru's character is pretty interesting to watch considering it's not often where you see an attempt made to make a character where many can relate to in real life regardless of the type of story told. Yeah, it's not often I get to see a fat kid as the star of the show where his problems are exposed so candidly and still able to generate so much empathy, anguish, and anger from so many. I've been enjoying reading the threads more at times than watching the show as a result. Anyway, looking forward to episode 16 as soon as I can make some time.