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Old 2014-03-17, 20:14   Link #34121
jjblue1
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About <b>Kuwadorian Beatrice</b>:
Beatrice is more surprised and curious that angry that there are no wolves. To her it's good news but it's also confusing as everyone else told her there were, not just Kinzo.
Her reaction is rather similar to the one of a child who is presented a huge cake and then is told that, contrary to what his parents said, if he'll eat it whole he won't get stomach ache. He'll be more interested in eating the cake than in getting angry with his parents for the lies.

We're told many and many times in his mind Kinzo didn't see Beatrice as a daughter once she's old enough to look like Beatrice Castiglioni, but as her mother's reincarnation. Ergo making love with her should have felt 'natural' to him. He didn't mean to rape her or force her, just to rebuilt with her the relation he had with 'her previous self'.

The fact that the servants did nothing is disgusting but not so surprising. Even in modern times there's people who turn their eyes away from abuse. For servants back then it should have felt even more normal not to nose into their master's business with Beatrice.

After all think at how Maria is abused and neglected by Rosa and everyone turns his gaze away. Even social services in the end left Maria in Rosa's care and they had evidence that Rosa abandoned on her own a child.

Servants from Kuwadorian were also already getting extra paid for keeping Kuwadorian and Beatrice's existence as a secret and to keep Beatrice ignorant... which I guess is a hint people working in Kuwadorian was also selected to be loyal to Kinzo and that they had no really moral problems in keeping a person ignorant, hidden and secluded on in a house and lie to her continuously about wolves and who know what else. I wouldn't really expect them to help.

About Prime's truth:
As Ange knows it I don't see any harm in letting us know it as well.
My only guess is that it's not exactly the same as Ep 7 Teaparty's truth but likely resembles it in the same was as Ep 4 resembles it.

For Ep 7 Teaparty to be fully true you need to collect the tales of at least 5 people:
Battler for the chat in the cousins' room and his own feelings
Shannon (or George) for the meeting they had before everything went downhill
Eva for what happened after she woke up in the golden room and her own thoughts
Rudolf for what happened with George and his own thoughts
Kyrie for what happened with Jessica and her own thoughts

Those people can also provide info about facts that were witnessed by more of them, for example Rudolf, Kyrie, Eva and Shannon can provide info about what happened in the gold room... but each of them knows facts that apparently didn't manage to share with the others.

Eva's diary can contain only Eva's truth. She wasn't told in details what Rudolf and Kyrie did when they were out of her sight and I don't think she managed to find out about George's meeting with Shannon or what Battler and Jessica talked about.

So the truth Eva knows can't cover the whole Teaparty and the bits she doesn't know can be only speculation. Ange couldn't have read the whole Teaparty in her diary, even if what she read could have been close enough.

I like to think that the fact that the Teaparty being shown to Ange and Lion symbolized that both Ange and Yasu had to face the Teaparty. Ange read about it, Yasu witnessed it personally. If Yasu survived and became Ikuko and she's living with Tohya the Teaparty can represent at best the story as 3 people saw it, Battler, Yasu and Eva as the Hachijos have her diary.

It still leaves Kyrie and Rudolf's actions and motivations as pure speculation. Eva, Ange and Battler might have assumed the worst due to their various circumstances but they can't claim they know the why or the details about the how. It's a truth that remains in the catbox and therefore you can decide whatever interpretation you want.

About Ep 7 Teaparty and Ep 4:
Renall mix of the two Ep works really well and my guess is it must be pretty close to the truth.

I've been wondering if Kyrie said all those stuffs to Eva because she wanted Eva to kill her.

Kyrie lived in hell for many years due to a man she obsessed with and that wouldn't have chose her if she didn't had abortion... because actually she didn't have abortion, she gave birth to a healthy baby boy and he stole him from her.
Rudolf chose Asumu and yet Kyrie spent her life clinging to him until she was lucky enough to get her chance to have him and now... Rudolf is death.
Kyrie wasted 18 years of her life after a man who favoured another woman over her and married her because that other woman died and she was pregnant.
And now she had murdered people for him and... he died.
Maybe instead than feeling angry she just felt empty. She wasn't greedy per se but because she thought it would benefit Rudolf and despite all she did for him... in the end he never truly loved her as much as she loved him. And now he's gone and she has nothing.

I think it could have been a bad blow that could have pushed her, who knew well how to use guns, to let Eva kill her. Maybe for once she didn't rationalize.

As for Kyrie's words to Battler I like to think they were an advice to Tohya actually on how to deal with the truth. Kyrie suggests to believe. You can take it in two ways. Either believe the witch and avoid thinking that his parents killed people or accept that his parents were a demon and a witch and there's no reason to question this, to torment himself over it, to investigate further as nothing good would come out of it.

Interesting enough Kyrie's words might sound also as is they contained regret.

Quote:
“Probably, ......even after being clearly shown so many things not of this world, ......we probably still weren't able to believe any of it, I think. I'm still like that now. ......The true form of this thing that keeps attacking me, trying to shoot through my forehead, ......is something I don't understand, .........and I can't believe it. So, ......I want you alone to believe, to understand, .........to accept the existence, ......of that which we couldn't accept. If you do that for me, our deaths won't be wasted. .........It'll also have been worth it for me to make this phone call.........Ah...!”
The things 'not of this world' might be the gold and the bomb that, although existing in this world, seems incredible. We can also add how everyone lost his head and a fight started.

The 'we weren't able to believe it' might be some sort of justification for how everyone went insane. It was a situation too big, they couldn't grasp it and people overreacted and did things they wouldn't believe themselves capable of. The thing that's trying to shoot her head might be a thought that's tormenting her, driving her insane. Maybe she can't accept what she did so smoothly, how they could act so horribly, but wants Battler to accept it and learn fom it that people can do horrible things. Battler always tries to see the best in people but maybe she thinks in that case there's none.

Also, I wonder if actually Kyrie didn't perceive Eva as a treath more than as an obstacle. Eva and Hideyoshi had 'incidentally' killed 2 people and Eva was in a highly agitated state. She pointed her gun at Rosa and vice versa. Maybe Kyrie too felt threatened. It would be interesting to actually learn Kyrie's motive.

Going back to Ep 3, it was actually possible up to that point to build a theory in which it was Rudolf who killed Rosa when he went to search for her and then Kyrie dragged out Hideyoshi to kill him too, not to question him... but Battler tried to build a theory that protected Kyrie.
For all we know Eva and Kyrie could have been both unknowingly be hired by Yasu and work for her to get rid of the others. Yasu merely decided to sacrifice Kyrie to keep Eva but when Kyrie lead Hideyoshi out she knew Yasu would kill him... or make it look as he was killed.

So it'll be interesting to speculate on Kyrie's motive for doing things but likely we'll never know...
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Old 2014-03-17, 23:30   Link #34122
Golden Bug-Hunter
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Originally Posted by Captain Bluebeard View Post
Yeah, but it is canon. The inconsistencies derive from the bad characterization of Kuwadorian Beatrice, which can be justified, because we were still in EP3, it would be risky to communicate more about her situation and psychosynthesis, it might give away too much. It may have been a good idea to adress it at some point, but I assume it would be difficult to find a proper place for that.
I'm very hesitant to throw that term around for much beyond 'Yasu / ShKannontrice is the game board culprit'. Ryukishi has demonstrated a fondness for incompetent detectives that come to the wrong conclusions (Battler and Erika especially) prompting ridiculous theories, and letting all sorts of characters speak their mind without ever being explicitly corrected. He seems to prefer giving us 'ideas' over answers, and he's thrown wrong ideas out more than once (The alibis for Rosa and Kannon in Ep 2 for example come to mind).

Quote:
She was planning to escape so it's pretty natural that she wouldn't tell anybody. I don't think they would let her take a stroll anyway, considering the fence and the whole 'wolves' story.
Actually, there's one person she'd almost definitely tell if this was an 'under their noses' escape attempt and she was worried about getting caught: 'Come on, Rosa. We better hurry since Kumasawa could come out at any moment and I'll get in trouble.'

Quote:
In that case I have proof for it, because they did exist in the first scene of EP3. Kumasawa (Virgilia, to be percise, but it's the same thing) and various other female servants were there, so I think it would be safe to assume that aside from Kinzo's trusted servants, Kuwadorian must have been equiped with a heavily bribed personnel.
Nah, that only proves that Kumasawa visited at some point, probably on a regular basis. I've never disputed that. It doesn't prove that she was there at the time that Rosa popped up in the backyard.
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Old 2014-03-17, 23:46   Link #34123
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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
Cynically, was Kyrie trying to manipulate Battler into calling Eva out as the murderer, or was she trying to get him to do exactly the opposite? You could sort of read it both ways, depending upon how you think Battler would take things to seem. Whether he actually followed her advice would be another matter entirely, as we know Battler is always the sort to question this kind of thing. The other question would be whether Kyrie knew Battler was going to meet Beatrice. In the "ep4 is Battler's POV of something like ep7" reading she shouldn't though.
I don't think Kyrie's phone chat should be seen as pertaining to Eva herself at all. At that point, Eva would have still been left with the corpses in the gold room, presumed dead, or possibly heading out to see Rudolph. The first Rudolph or Kyrie know that she's still alive are scenes where they get shot with no opportunity to contact Battler or each other. Maybe if breaking the news to George and Jessica went poorly and became a fight to the death?

Maybe we're seeing Kyrie's subterfuge attempt at motherly advice? This girl loves you, ya big lunk, so don't hurt her feelings by laughing at her. A woman scorned is TERRIFYING' And I mean, Kyrie would know on that part.
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Old 2014-03-18, 08:10   Link #34124
Renall
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While true, that'd be a bit odd if Kyrie thought Shannon was already dead (especially if Kyrie was fairly sure she was the one who killed her). But that does assume a course of events nearly identical to either ep4 or ep7, and it's not entirely necessary that this be the case. And if Kyrie didn't even make the call, then it becomes more of a meta-hint regarding Beatrice than anything.

Ultimately however, I do think that Eva had to have been missing information. Looking at ep5 and ep6, both essentially lean on Battler's knowing participation in one scheme or another (the manga confirms this for ep5 and it's pretty obvious for ep6). If some sort of game was meant to be going on, who was in on it? Were Kyrie and Rudolf picked out as accomplices and decided to exploit that? Were they picked to play a role and did, but then things went terribly wrong? We ultimately don't and can't know their POV as no information from them appears to have survived. We only have Eva's diary, which we can summarize as "some course of events similar to what she would've reliably been able to witness in the ep7 TP;" and Battler's fragmentary memories, which suggest he wasn't necessarily sitting around ignorant of everything.

So Eva almost certainly wasn't in on whatever was happening behind the scenes, in which case her conclusions may be unreliable because the things she saw may not have been what they appeared... and Battler seemingly was in on, well, something, which means there actually was something going on behind the scenes. And then there's the other adults, the servants, George and Jessica, etc., none of whom have an accessible POV. So there are almost certainly things that happened that neither Eva nor Battler actually saw. In those instances we can't necessarily trust either of them to have properly interpreted things, but perhaps Battler could be trusted a little bit more (if he was indeed in on some plan or game or somesuch).
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Old 2014-03-18, 09:08   Link #34125
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In the Ep7 tea party, Shannon's execution was after Eva had passed out, so I consider that part of 'Eva's Fantasy' along witha ll the other mustache twirling stuff.

I don't think of Kyrie as the type to initiate all that fantastical magic stuff, so I tend to believe that the narrative of the escape attempt is something Yasu came up with and gave her to read on the spot. Either at gunpoint, or because she was persuaded to play the game some time after the shootout in the gold room. In that case, it's less 'Why would Kyrie say Shannon's dead, and more like 'why would Yasu off her two other personalities in the fantasy narrative' which is not too hard to guess at: George and Jessica were already dead at that point.
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Old 2014-03-18, 09:23   Link #34126
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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
Ultimately however, I do think that Eva had to have been missing information. Looking at ep5 and ep6, both essentially lean on Battler's knowing participation in one scheme or another (the manga confirms this for ep5 and it's pretty obvious for ep6). If some sort of game was meant to be going on, who was in on it?
I think one of the points we can take from the EP8 manga's solution of EP5 is also that there was more than one scheme going on.

Since the overarching story of "The Rokkenjima Witch Serial Murder Case"(TM) is a mystery (however much infused with other tropes), there needs to be a mastermind...which is what Erika was trying to find out for those Episodes and which they allowed.

But it's also still strange that Battler came back this of all years, when we know that the Eva, Rudolph and Rosa factions were working together in bringing down Krauss and Natsuhi's scheme of hiding Kinzo's death. It is not unlikely that Rudolph and Kyrie brought back Battler for pretty much a tactical reason as well...because they might have had a bigger plan set up.
At the same time Yasu had her own plan and she didn't even know that there was going to be something running counter to her own plan. Looking at EP1 and 2 it's fairly clear that while the parents suspect foul play, they never bring up any sign of a unified front or plan against Kratsuhi, while it starts popping up in 3 and becomes really apparent in 4 and 5.

So, the EP8 manga tells us that Battler would never be a culprit in Beatrice's games...OF COURSE NOT, since she loved him and he was the one person she perceived as innocent and idealistic. The question is, was he?!
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Old 2014-03-18, 10:01   Link #34127
Renall
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Originally Posted by Golden Bug-Hunter View Post
In the Ep7 tea party, Shannon's execution was after Eva had passed out, so I consider that part of 'Eva's Fantasy' along witha ll the other mustache twirling stuff.
True, but it would be odd for Eva not to notice if somebody was missing from the room when she woke up. If "Beatrice" vanished, she would've been as wary of that as that Rudolf and Kyrie weren't present anymore.

Of course that assumes events played out exactly as portrayed, so maybe and maybe not. But if we try to separate out Eva's POV scenes in the ep7 TP and assume they're the contents of her diary (because really, that's all we have to go on at this point), she at least knew who was in the room before the shooting started. If any of those people were gone later, she ought to have known that as well and assumed them to still be alive unless and until she saw otherwise. Eva actually knowing Yasu was probably still alive is a big thing.

To say nothing of what a difference it would make to events if Yasu were, in fact, alive. It definitely would muddle the interpretation provided in ep7 (and would provide an opening for Battler to have seen her later, potentially).
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Originally Posted by haguruma View Post
So, the EP8 manga tells us that Battler would never be a culprit in Beatrice's games...OF COURSE NOT, since she loved him and he was the one person she perceived as innocent and idealistic. The question is, was he?!
The question is more whose schemes Battler was in on and why. In ep1-4, Beatrice's games, he's clearly out of the loop entirely. But in ep5 he's seemingly a reluctant accomplice in the plan to reveal Kinzo's death, and in ep6 he's a major participant in a fake murder game. There's also a strong possibility he's in on the fake murders in ep5, although I'm not sure if that was meant to be part of the Kinzo plot or something else entirely. If we take Battler's refinement of his role over the course of Chiru to be a metaphor for remembering what role he actually took in events in 1986, it would certainly seem that he's part of a plot... and maybe several? But what were those plots, what did Battler think was going to happen with them, and how did everything end up going wrong?

Although it's hard to know whose interpretation this was (since Eva didn't see it), Battler certainly seems to reject his parents' killing spree in the ep7 TP. Then again, Bern includes him as a cackling participant in her ep8 game. But I would find it a bit odd that a person who abandoned his father because of a perceived lack of integrity would come back to help said father commit an unethical act (let alone a blatantly immoral one like murder). So I don't think murder was in the cards to start with, and I wouldn't be surprised if Battler wasn't the most enthusiastic participant (in the ep8 manga solution to ep5 he appears uncomfortable at least). But, much like the servants in Our Confession, Battler could easily have been lied to about what the actual plan was.

I suppose there's also the issue of squaring the Battler/Beatrice on the 6th bit with Beatrice being completely disappointed with him in ep4. Granted, that sort of conversation could've gone very differently if Battler did remember, and by ep4 perhaps he hadn't remembered whether he had remembered (in a manner of speaking). And the ep8 bit can be metaphorical too. If Battler's perspective or memory could be unpacked from the larger narrative perhaps it'd be clearer, but I'm not sure that it can be.
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Old 2014-03-18, 18:44   Link #34128
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Originally Posted by Captain Bluebeard View Post
I'm not really sure if Ryukishi would decide to give away Rokenjima Prime in the manga depiction, to be honest, because that would send EP8's entire message to hell. Plus what about Bernkastel? Why set up this entire charade of showing it to Ange and then make her search for the Book of Truth, when there is also the 'word trick' of her red truth, which was clearly intentional? It just doesn't connect very well.... She could very well tell her the whole thing in red one more time and get it over with. (Plus Bernkastel clearly says "Oh, no that wasn't the truth", which well... sort of means it wasn't)
Except the manga does pretty clearly show the contents of the BoOT. Considering similar images are in the files for episode 8 (but unused), I think that Ryukishi originally planned to reveal the truth but backed out due to not having enough time to fully explain it. Bernkastel also didn't say it wasn't the truth - she merely backed down and said it was a possibility, before once again reasserting it was true after Ange read the book. It's a cruel act for a cruel witch - she wanted to hit her with the realization twice.
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Credible? You want to call the EP7 scenario credible? Because it isn't. Kyrie is fucking retarted in EP7! Why go to all the trouble of murdering everyone, when they'll die from the explosion? She could just sit around in Kuwadorian drinking coffe or something.
I've made a post on this subject before:
http://forums.animesuki.com/showthre...11#post4978111
Basically, you're assuming that everyone else doesn't know about the bomb. This is wrong. The servants probably all know about it (see Our Confession), and Kyrie has every reason to think that the cousins do too. Thus any survivors could have easily escaped the explosion and provided incriminating testimony against Kyrie.

I also think that the revelation about Battler had to play a part, but I'm not sure when she learnt it. Was it before, resulting in her mind being clouded with rage? Or did Rudolf tell her during the rampage in an attempt to save Battler?

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Originally Posted by Captain Bluebeard View Post
So, let's agree it is the only explanation of the Rokenjima event, (let's leave credible out, well, nothing in Umineko really is but anyway) but there is nothing in EP8 suggesting that it was intended for one to be given in the first place. Why make the real truth such a huge plot point when Ange already knows it, and it has been confirmed with the red truth as well? Isn't that a very stupid excuse to make an 8th episode?
Again, because episode 8 is about Ange's attempts to come to terms with the truth. Under your interpretation one could instead ask: why make the real truth a huge plot point and then never reveal anything about it?

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If it's true though, then Eva's interpretation is missing massive amounts of necessary information, because Kyrie's actions appear to make no sense whatsoever based on existing characterization. So either that was right and Eva missed something or that was wrong and surprise, Kyrie was a psychopath all along and every other author just missed that part except Eva who got to witness it. Neither of these is a very satisfying point, especially since the ep7 TP covers events Eva could not have witnessed (and, if her diary is honest, did not witness; she'd only be able to infer that Kyrie murdered Jessica and Gohda for example).
I agree. Anything Eva did not directly witness is probably just speculation on her part. Although I do think there's plenty of evidence to suggest that Kyrie is capable of turning off her empathy (as psychopaths do) when needed.

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Is it possible Battler's interpretation is actually closer to the truth, to a certain extent? That is, Kyrie was the culprit (for motive x) but people didn't die in the order that was expected? That would explain something like Rudolf dying, if a shootout or other such incident didn't go according to plan (and as we see in the ep7 TP, things don't go to plan for Rudolf specifically).
I think ep4 is an honest attempt by Battler to find the truth of the incident, and I do think there are some parts of it that illuminate the gaps in episode 7, yeah. I think the wrong people dying part is just his confused memory though (other than Eva, which he might have done to obscure the nature of the story), all those corpses probably blended together in some horrible haze.

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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
It's clear there is some intended Rudolf/Kyrie factor starting in the stories not written by Yasu. Note that both are FT'd in ep1 and ep2 and have no further impact on the story, but that isn't the case at all in ep3 and ep4. Arguably, one could say that ep3 is also the first point where the plan does not work flawlessly, as Legend and particularly Turn are essentially 100% Beatrice victories with no one interfering with the plan at all (except Kanon in ep1, and well...).
Yeah. I think that's because the first two were Yasu's plans - she just expected to kill the adults quickly and without fuss. But it turned out the adults were smarter than her, and successfully solved the epitaph. That's why the two episodes written after the fact are so dramatically different - they reflect reality, rather than the dreams of a naive fantasist.

I'm not really 100% sure what's going on in episode 3, but it wasn't part of Ryukishi's original plan. I guess Tohya might have constructed it from some of his memories ("I remember waiting around in the guest house a lot and finding corpses scattered around outside") and speculation based on the original message bottles and the fact that Eva survived. The game might ultimately stay on track because Battler was filling in the blanks with the message bottle stories.

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So I think, if anything, the truth can be argued to be something like this:
  • From Eva's perspective, the riddle was solved and something happened with "Beatrice" and the adults. People died; Eva may or may not be credible with respect to people's motivations at this time, especially her own, but in hindsight she regrets the sequence of events. She later awakens and goes on to discover a bunch of people who weren't among the first group dead, other than Rudolf and Kyrie. She infers that they were responsible, and Kyrie mysteriously goes so far as to confirm all of her suspicions and guilt-trip Eva into caring for her daughter before Eva kills her.
  • From Battler's perspective, some kind of weird game happens and the cousins get bizarre phone calls that gradually call them out one by one. Kyrie calls him with a very strange message while apparently dying. Battler eventually goes out himself and meets the human Beatrice, but he can't understand what she wants and she disappears. He then gets into the mansion mere minutes later and finds bodies everywhere and no clear source for them.
  • Battler and Eva meet up at some point. I think there is a confrontation similar to the end of ep3, but Eva either doesn't shoot Battler or does, thinks she's killed him, and flees but Battler is still alive. If there isn't a confrontation or if the confrontation is defused, Battler and Eva quickly realize that neither is the culprit and try to make sense of what happened. Unable to figure things out, they resolve to leave together and to cover up the specifics of the truth to some extent.
  • Something happens. Battler and Eva are separated in some manner. If Eva didn't shoot Battler then I have no good explanation as to why, other than maybe Battler finding an injured Yasu and basically deciding to commit suicide with her. Eva agrees not to write anything about Battler in the diary, or else the shooting scenario plays out and she chooses not to write anything about Battler out of guilt. Either way a big hole is left in the narrative specifically for Battler's fate to be hidden in. Battler probably wasn't intending to exploit this, but ended up accidentally doing so by losing his memory (alternatively, Eva did write about shooting Battler, and this part was simply not shown in the ep7 Tea Party).
This seems largely true to me. I think Yasu probably did actually survive to the 6th - her death in ep7 isn't directly witnessed by Eva, and it seems like her ep4 death might have just been copied in from Turn. Considering meta-Battler doesn't have the revelation about Beatrice until episode 5 I think he still doesn't remember his meeting with her when he wrote Alliance.

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Now, for the sake of argument, assume the following things are true: Kyrie was the culprit (or at least wanted to be seen as such), and Kyrie did make this call to Battler. What does what she's saying mean? What is she advising Battler to actually do, and why?
Interesting question. The phonecalls are unlike anything seen in past episodes, so it seems possible that they're actually from Tohya's memories.

I think that scene works best if she's being coerced by Yasu - somehow Yasu turned the tables and forced her to try and shield the truth from Battler. It could be that Eva agreed to write out the part about Yasu as well as Battler, in that case.

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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
While true, that'd be a bit odd if Kyrie thought Shannon was already dead (especially if Kyrie was fairly sure she was the one who killed her). But that does assume a course of events nearly identical to either ep4 or ep7, and it's not entirely necessary that this be the case. And if Kyrie didn't even make the call, then it becomes more of a meta-hint regarding Beatrice than anything.
I don't think Kyrie shot Yasu in the gold room. That's because she was a valuable hostage who could lure Jessica, George and Maria out of the guesthouse, as seen in episode 4. Also I think Kyrie and Rudolf had to be Yasu's accomplices on some level, because otherwise Battler might never have returned.
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Old 2014-03-19, 05:52   Link #34129
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Ryukishi has demonstrated a fondness for incompetent detectives that come to the wrong conclusions (Battler and Erika especially) prompting ridiculous theories, and letting all sorts of characters speak their mind without ever being explicitly corrected. He seems to prefer giving us 'ideas' over answers, and he's thrown wrong ideas out more than once (The alibis for Rosa and Kannon in Ep 2 for example come to mind).
Well, except this one is demonstrated pretty clearly in EP7. It's not like it throws around the idea that Kinzo might have committed incest with his daughter, it pretty much confesses it. It does bounce around the bush a little, probably because it's a delicate subject, but not to a degree when you cannot be sure that that's what is intended to be said. And it would kinda make him an asshole because he spent hours saying 'trust the author, without love... and all that'.

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Actually, there's one person she'd almost definitely tell if this was an 'under their noses' escape attempt and she was worried about getting caught: 'Come on, Rosa. We better hurry since Kumasawa could come out at any moment and I'll get in trouble.'
Mentioning Kumasawa might have been too much of a hint. Plus, are you suggesting that she wasn't escaping and everyone would just let her go if she asked?

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Nah, that only proves that Kumasawa visited at some point, probably on a regular basis. I've never disputed that. It doesn't prove that she was there at the time that Rosa popped up in the backyard.
You're missing my point. I'm not saying Kumasawa was there 24 hours a day, but that there were people in Kuwadorian, such as the servants who notice the broken vase.

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Except the manga does pretty clearly show the contents of the BoOT. Considering similar images are in the files for episode 8 (but unused), I think that Ryukishi originally planned to reveal the truth but backed out due to not having enough time to fully explain it.
Though admittedly, this is what the images seem to suggest, that's far from stating it 'pretty clearly.

I also doubt that he intended to reveal it but cut it out because of time pressure. If he wanted, he could make the time very very easily. The narrative goes on and on and on endlessly about trivial stuff and pointlessly dragged battles, and he just couldn't make space for the truth? So, "Okay, I have had to cut out what my entire novel is all about, but thank god I've included super-magical-loli battles! Heh! Who still thinks I need an editor?"

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Bernkastel also didn't say it wasn't the truth - she merely backed down and said it was a possibility, before once again reasserting it was true after Ange read the book. It's a cruel act for a cruel witch - she wanted to hit her with the realization twice.
But that doesn't really justify Ange's reaction. She flips out. She wouldn't do that if she already knew what she was reading. She might be mildly shocked to read that about her family twice, but mostly she'd be 'dang Bern, you're nasty!'

And hitting her with the realization twice just sounds stupid. No, the entire thing is stupid on Ryukishi's part. Shitty writing is an actual problem with Umineko, but this one would kinda throw everything out the window. It would be like Ryukishi is suddenly making Ange oblivious of the truth she turned herself to a meat lump over to just include some battles and melodramatic goodbyes with his characters.

And it still doesn't explain Ange's 'hey, the truth was no big deal after all'. Is your parents being psycopaths who murdered your entire family over money and shamelessly admitted they never loved you not a big deal, or something you 'wouldn't need to know?' Why would Ange say that?

I don't think she would come to realize Battler's message after seeing a truth like that, on the contrary, it would be much more coherent to her character if she became even more pissed at him for hiding this from her when she had every right to know. And the fact that she doesn't seem pissed at all at her parents further supporst this.

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Basically, you're assuming that everyone else doesn't know about the bomb. This is wrong. The servants probably all know about it (see Our Confession), and Kyrie has every reason to think that the cousins do too. Thus any survivors could have easily escaped the explosion and provided incriminating testimony against Kyrie.
Why would the cousins know about the bomb? Yasu avoids to tell them much more substancial stuff about herself, which are kinda necessary for them to know if she wants to pursue a relationship, so it's unthinkable that she'd consult them about her ten tons of gold and bomb.

For the sake of arguing, okay, let's agree that Kyrie needs to go kill everybody, but that still doesn't fill the holes in her logic. She acts like she's retarted in more than one way.

Though, to be fair, I think that her sudden turn into a psycho could have been foreshadowed by the entire Asumu story. But is still isn't satisfying characterization.

Quote:
Again, because episode 8 is about Ange's attempts to come to terms with the truth. Under your interpretation one could instead ask: why make the real truth a huge plot point and then never reveal anything about it?
Because that kinda IS the whole point EP8 was making.

I believe it is kind of a stretch to assume EP8 is about Ange coming to terms with the truth she learned, because if she already knew it there would be no point in the entire "Tell me the truth damn iiiiiit!!!!!" drama.

The chapel scene she implies that she heard rumors about her parents being the culprits from kids at school or TV. It's probably Ange being desparate about learning the truth because she suffers from not knowing and hearing all sorts of crap about her parents.
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Old 2014-03-19, 08:41   Link #34130
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Interesting question. The phonecalls are unlike anything seen in past episodes, so it seems possible that they're actually from Tohya's memories.

I think that scene works best if she's being coerced by Yasu - somehow Yasu turned the tables and forced her to try and shield the truth from Battler. It could be that Eva agreed to write out the part about Yasu as well as Battler, in that case.

I don't think Kyrie shot Yasu in the gold room. That's because she was a valuable hostage who could lure Jessica, George and Maria out of the guesthouse, as seen in episode 4. Also I think Kyrie and Rudolf had to be Yasu's accomplices on some level, because otherwise Battler might never have returned.
Well, here we get to the problem of reconciling a possible truth with what ep7 presents, although admittedly we're not 100% confirmed that Eva's POV in ep7 is indeed the truth of her diary. But again, if it isn't, then we'd only know that "the diary is kinda similar," which doesn't help us any.

I say reconciling because we definitely have a potential problem looking at ep4 and ep7 and Kyrie's death. In ep7, there's really no equivocating on the matter: Eva killed Kyrie. If that's the truth of her diary then Eva is admitting that she's the one who took out Rudolf and Kyrie. On the other hand, ep4 certainly seems to be implying that it was Yasu who killed Kyrie, probably at the end of that call as you proposed. Obviously, Kyrie can't die twice.

Let's assume your sequence of events: Gold shootout happens, Eva passes out, Yasu is not killed and is used as a lure for the cousins, Yasu manages to somehow turn the tables or at least escape alive. Now we're at a point where, at least as far as we know, the following people are still alive: Yasu, Battler, Eva, Rudolf, and Kyrie. Rudolf probably dies first, given the sequence of events shown in the ep7 TP. It's possible he died even sooner than that, but for now let's roughly take Eva's word on it (although she doesn't necessarily know how much time has passed). There doesn't seem to be much doubt that Eva kills him (although see below).

Okay, so the Kyrie shooting has to happen, and if Yasu does anything with respect to making Kyrie make a phone call (or if Kyrie makes it of her own volition) that means one of a handful of things:
  • Eva did kill Kyrie when she shot her, and the call either was never made or was made before this, meaning Kyrie didn't really die at the end of the call. Why Kyrie would say the things she said on the phone then I'm not sure.
  • Eva shot Kyrie but didn't kill her, although she thought she did. This is plausible since the same thing happened when Eva was shot, and the Rudolf/Kyrie/Hideyoshi part of Banquet could be argued as a hint as well under certain interpretations. Kyrie crawls off and either makes the call or is found by Yasu and Yasu forces her to make the call. Dying from a wound and unarmed, Kyrie has no choice but to comply. She then either dies on her own or Yasu finishes her off. Eva wouldn't write that part because Eva didn't know that happened.
  • Eva didn't kill Kyrie (or possibly even Rudolf), but chose to write in her diary that she did. The only reason I can see her claiming credit for that crime (self-defense as she wrote it, but still essentially a confession) is that someone else killed Rudolf and Kyrie and she doesn't want the world or Ange to know and hate that person (even though Eva understands they were justified, or at least believes so), so she's taking on their role instead. Sort of supported by the existence of Eva-Beatrice, as the only real opportunity Eva has to become a witch in the sense the story presents is through that diary. It "becomes" the Book of One Truth because it's the only record, regardless of whether it was actually true. Of course, there's really only two people that Eva could be covering for: Battler and Yasu. So this scenario only really makes sense in a situation where on October 6th all three parted amicably, as I doubt Eva would feel any reason to protect those two if she didn't know they survived or thought they were culprits themselves.
The third perspective is interesting because it might actually lend some kind of sense to the decision not to release Eva's diary to the public. If the Hachijous learned through their own research and memories that Eva's diary was an intentional distortion or an incomplete record that misinterpreted facts because Eva didn't grasp their significance, they might realize that its release would necessitate either that they reveal their own truth (that at least one of them is also a survivor) or that they not do that and allow the world to run wild with an incomplete picture. Why they would decide the latter depends on just how much Battler's memories actually revealed, I suppose, but it's hard to know. But if there was an unexplained critical detail that they knew that wasn't in the diary that was needed to understand the truth, then they'd have to explain how they actually came to find out about it when Eva's diary is supposed to be the only source of information. That's a decision they clearly didn't want to make.

But how would that relate to Ange/Meta-Ange? Not really sure. If the BoOT contained some details Eva did witness but which were left out of other segments of the story, maybe there'd be something in there that triggered a different eventual interpretation in her mind. That is, "This is as bad as I hoped and just like I'd been told, but..." The problem being figuring out what the "but" is, and whether it's in the book itself or based on some information learned from elsewhere. Plus there's the issue of what the "real" Ange did and how we're supposed to read the Magic ending. If it's meant to be the true, factual outcome then Ange clearly did decide to take the message to heart and go on living, but what facts accessible to Ange-Prime finally convinced her? Ange-Prime isn't Meta-Ange, so she can only act according to Ange-Prime's own knowledge.
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Old 2014-03-19, 23:10   Link #34131
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Well, except this one is demonstrated pretty clearly in EP7. It's not like it throws around the idea that Kinzo might have committed incest with his daughter, it pretty much confesses it. It does bounce around the bush a little, probably because it's a delicate subject, but not to a degree when you cannot be sure that that's what is intended to be said. And it would kinda make him an asshole because he spent hours saying 'trust the author, without love... and all that'
Dude, are you serious? Are you pulling out a 'Trust the author more' card when another aspect of this debats is 'Going along with this sort of craziness seems inconsistent with the portrayal of other characters that MUST be involved for the conspiracy to work.' vs. 'THat's because Ryukishi did a bad job of developing the characters.' I'm not the one who's lacking trust in the author here.

To me, trusting the author, especially in a meta-mystery-story that plays with the audience as much as Umineko, isn't about accepting the conclusion of the detective(s) or other characters as 'and that's the way it is'. It means to keep thinking and considering possibilities, acknowledge the possibility that any character might misinterpret the things they see, and constantly rearrange the pieces until you get something that makes sense and fits the themes.

I mean, on this very page we've got it spelled out even more clearly than anything about Kinzo-cest that the Ep 7 tea party is basically what's in Eva's Diary. But there are things about it that don't make sense to us (Moustache Twirling Kyrie and Rudolph especially) so despite trusting the author that this is 'the truth Eva believed in' we look for better answers.

How is that any different from me suggesting that even though Kinzo-cest is the truth that Yasu/Battler/Will/Claire/Bernkastle believed in, the actual 'one truth' of 'Prime' is something different? What makes that line of thinking obvious or at least plausible for one case but white-washing foolishness for this one? Is Yasu's beliefs about how she was conceived any more valid than Eva's beliefs about what happened in other rooms she wasn't there for? I don't think there's any difference at all.

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Mentioning Kumasawa might have been too much of a hint. Plus, are you suggesting that she wasn't escaping and everyone would just let her go if she asked?
I'm suggesting that there was no one else there at that time. No Kumasawa, no Genji, no infant child, just Beato2 left alone to take care of herself for a bit like a big kid. I mean, yeah, name-dropping Kumasawa would be a bit much, but then again something vague like 'That old Goat' would be vague enough to double as a fantasy-origin of 'This is where Beatrice/Kinzo's Goat servants came from' while still conveying that there is a real urgency to their exit. It suggests a real escape instead of wandering off to check out interesting things.

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You're missing my point. I'm not saying Kumasawa was there 24 hours a day, but that there were people in Kuwadorian, such as the servants who notice the broken vase.
No, I get that. The requirement of constant competent presence for proper child care is something I'm asserting, because gosh darnit people need maternity/paternity leave for a reason. Parenting, especaily the very young is hard work. Kinzo's too busy living a double life to do it properly, Beato2 is too ignorant to handle it on her own (doubly so if she somehow doesn't understand the significance of the fact that she was pregnant.) so that means there would have to be a live-in servant at Kuwadorian conveniently keeping Beato2 under watch if we are to believe that there was also an infant incest-baby-Yasu being raised there.
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Old 2014-03-20, 03:53   Link #34132
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Dude, are you serious? Are you pulling out a 'Trust the author more' card when another aspect of this debats is 'Going along with this sort of craziness seems inconsistent with the portrayal of other characters that MUST be involved for the conspiracy to work.' vs. 'THat's because Ryukishi did a bad job of developing the characters.' I'm not the one who's lacking trust in the author here.
Well I guess I stepped on a mine with this one, trusting the author is kind of a taboo, but this isn't exactly what I meant.

Trusting the author does not mean 'have faith in his abilities as an author' because let's face it, Ryukishi is an amateur writer, and naturally, since he doesn't have an editor, his works have some 'technical' errors, neither does it mean to 'take whatever he says to heart'. To trust the author, in my opinion, means something like 'it can definitely be solved, so do your best and try to solve it'. What this means is that the canon solution is undoubtedly the intended solution that we were supposed to reach. But that solution only corresponds to the "fictional" stories of the message bottles. How much of this is true of Rokenjima... well, that, we will never know.

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I mean, on this very page we've got it spelled out even more clearly than anything about Kinzo-cest that the Ep 7 tea party is basically what's in Eva's Diary. But there are things about it that don't make sense to us (Moustache Twirling Kyrie and Rudolph especially) so despite trusting the author that this is 'the truth Eva believed in' we look for better answers.
I doubt that Eva would know about Kinzo's incest. Basically, our knowledge about it derives from the fictional stories. Yasu seems to suggest she is Kinzo's illegitimate child in EP1 and EP2, but interestingly enough, the first time anything about Kuwadorian Beatrice is mentioned and incest is hinted is in Battler's EP3.

Now, as to how on earth would Battler know something like that, I can't really say. It would be more reasonable if this was addressed in Yasu's stories, because she could have been told by Genji and the rest. The fact that Battler knows raises some questions about his role in Prime, but we can be certain of Kuwadorian Beatrice's existence because of Captain Kawabata's testimony in EP4.

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How is that any different from me suggesting that even though Kinzo-cest is the truth that Yasu/Battler/Will/Claire/Bernkastle believed in, the actual 'one truth' of 'Prime' is something different? What makes that line of thinking obvious or at least plausible for one case but white-washing foolishness for this one? Is Yasu's beliefs about how she was conceived any more valid than Eva's beliefs about what happened in other rooms she wasn't there for? I don't think there's any difference at all.
I think there is the difference that Eva has no source of knowledge about what took place in the rooms she couldn't observe, whereas Yasu must have been told where she came from by Genji.

Quote:
I'm suggesting that there was no one else there at that time. No Kumasawa, no Genji, no infant child, just Beato2 left alone to take care of herself for a bit like a big kid. I mean, yeah, name-dropping Kumasawa would be a bit much, but then again something vague like 'That old Goat' would be vague enough to double as a fantasy-origin of 'This is where Beatrice/Kinzo's Goat servants came from' while still conveying that there is a real urgency to their exit. It suggests a real escape instead of wandering off to check out interesting things.
Even if there was no infant at all, I'm not sure it's plausible that Kinzo would let his daughter unattended. Not necessarily because she would try to escape or was incapable of taking care of herself, but because for people like Kinzo, meaning, people with his social status (in context of the time period of course) it would seem like a necessity to have someone like that in the house. You wouldn't expect Kinzo's beloved daughter to have to clean the house herself or do her own laundry.

Especially considering the environment she lived in. A secret house in an already isolated island, in the middle of the forest. If anything happened to her she would be unable to even call for help until Kinzo decided to pay a visit, which he probably wasn't certain how often he could do, so he probably always had to leave someone in his stead.

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No, I get that. The requirement of constant competent presence for proper child care is something I'm asserting, because gosh darnit people need maternity/paternity leave for a reason. Parenting, especaily the very young is hard work. Kinzo's too busy living a double life to do it properly, Beato2 is too ignorant to handle it on her own (doubly so if she somehow doesn't understand the significance of the fact that she was pregnant.) so that means there would have to be a live-in servant at Kuwadorian conveniently keeping Beato2 under watch if we are to believe that there was also an infant incest-baby-Yasu being raised there.
I don't get why you think there is something suggesting there weren't live-in servants in Kuwadorian, because there isn't. Actually, even without the existence of an incest baby, it seems necessary for the reasons mentioned above that Kinzo would hire someone to be there non-stop, or would arrange it she would never be alone in there.

That might have made for a pretty interesting character, but the text seems to suggest her most frequent and close attendand was Kumasawa. Certainly, it is an inadequacy in the writing that Kuwadorian Beatrice's situation is not adressed more explicitly, one that makes her story all the more unrealistic than it already is.

Yes, the lack of mention of somebody that might notice her escape might not actually support the existence of people in the mansion, but everything else does. It is unthinkable that there wouldn't be somebody there to take care of her, so her not mentioning anything must be purely strategical on Ryukishi's part to cloud her story in mystery since it's still pretty early in the story.
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Old 2014-03-20, 08:25   Link #34133
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Of course even if someone had noticed Beatrice was gone just 10-15 minutes later and immediately set out to look for her, it would've been too late to actually catch up with her and Rosa anyway. The only real oddities I can see are that nobody was nearby (which isn't implausible, she's a grown woman in a garden and probably doesn't need to be watched at all times, so someone probably would've come by eventually), and that there was no mention of anything even hinting at the existence of a baby in Rosa's story (which I'd more likely ascribe to a hole in the writing caused by the retooling of what would become ep3 and an attempt to integrate it into the story properly later on).
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Old 2014-03-21, 22:04   Link #34134
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About the Battler culprit theory:

Although I'm fond of Black Battler the interesting thing about the game is that the best Battler can do, even in Bern's cruel game, is to murder Shannon, which can be applied metaphorically to the fact he 'destroyed' her. In EP 6 he basically committed suicide by "killing himself" (instead than getting killed by one of the other characters). In Ougon, although he claims to be the culprit, honestly he feels more like Shannon's fantasy, something with which she covers up her actions which reminds me how Beatrice told him "due to you people die".
In Ep 5 he also claims to be the culprit but we know he's covering for someone.

Battler however seems to definitely be in on something not too nice. Starting from Bern's game he'll cover up for his parents faking death knowing what they're doing, In Ep 6 he is in into the murder game to trick Erika and in Ep 5 he's in into the mummery to trick Natsuhi and Erika.

Ep 5/6 and Ep 7 Teaparty seem however to imply although he was in on something he didn't think it would cause people to die but that it was just a game/prank.

The way Black Battler acts, claiming he's forced to be the culprit by theatregoings and that he doesn't have a motive can also be a reference to how he was coerced into something.

Now the problem would be... which role could he actually have?
Apart from setting Yasu's plan into motion he doesn't seem to have many chances to do something. Sure, it could be he knew/figured out Kinzo was dead and his parents wanted to force Krauss to admit it and that he had been dragged on Rokkenjima merely because in the original plan Rudolf wanted to use the excuse Battler had came back to force the issue of having Kinzo to show up greet him but that's no big deal.

Ep 5 seems to hint he could have figured out the solution of the epitaph which would require him to be present when the adults argue as implied by Ep 5... or that he actually solved it on his own and showed up in the golden room later on to witness what had happened and therefore 'disappeared' because when Kyrie called the cousins he wasn't there and no one knew where he went... ergo when he found the bodies he was too late to come back and warn his cousins about what had happened.

Although it'll be interesting if he was organizing also a murder game with the cousins at the same time as Yasu was organizing one with the adults and things ended up getting messed up (pretend Kyrie and Rudolf never meant to kill anyone else but they, and later Eva found George, Maria and Jessica playing dead in agreement to Battler's game and Genji, Kumasawa and Gohda playing death in agreement to Yasu's game as they were supposed to be sacrifices for the first twilight Yasu hadn't gotten along to kill yet... Maria can fake being death quite well, Ep 6 said she remained still even as Erika killed her mother...) it would be unlikely no one realized the others were just pretending to be dead... and that Battler would escape without warning the cousins it wasn't time to play any longer.

So even if Battler might have been involved in something, I've hard time thinking he deliberately murdered someone on his own.
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Old 2014-03-22, 03:11   Link #34135
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The difficulty about Battler is, at the end we realise, just like Kinzo or Yasu, we practically know nothing about him at all. The narratives of the first two is kinda an ideal version of Yasu imagination of him (I think she played up his womanizer aspect ). The rest of the narratives, especially Chiru, sometimes put some grey shades into his characters, and yes, it definitely shows us that he was not so unaware of everything like we initially thought. But which schemes did he involve in and to which extent? We don't know anything. It's even more suspicious when Touya claimed that he did not want to return to be Battler again, but that could be interpreted in a thousands way.

I know that Black Battler is meant to be a joke of R07 (in the extra tip at least), but for some reason I cannot think of a sure way to discredit that theory. No, in my mind due to lack of valid evidence claimming otherwise, Battler-culprit is still a possible solution. After all, looking back, what do we know about the Battler of Rockenjima Prime? Practically nothing! He's just like a blank canvas. Even more than Yasu, because at least Yasu shows hints of her personality when you re-read the episodes written by her. About Battler, all we have is hints and I feel that there're nothing concrete in those hints.

And why didn't he return in the fragment when Yasu exist? I cannot help thinking that in that universe, his comming back does not require for some reason (some schemes are not needed, like the siblings doesn't need to expose Kinzo's death). That means his return always has a certain purpose, and without all the mess with Yasu's existence, that purpose is lost.

The weird thing is, that kind of situation applied to many characters in the series, not just Battler: Kinzo, Kumasawa, Kyrie, Eva...

At the end, it created a strange feeling, like I have been knowing those people for a really long time, I know their stories, I know them so well like old friends, but at the end, I know nothing about them. I wonder if it is somehow the author's intention?
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Old 2014-03-22, 05:04   Link #34136
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Hey guys, are you all in some good Umineko bullshit theories?



I guess it's hard to understand what the difference between the gameboards is , and how they have their own exclusive red truth and how it's different from Prime world.
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Old 2014-03-22, 06:03   Link #34137
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I won't blame them. The story keep getting more and more meta. Some events we're not even sure on which layer of reality. There're lot of argument in this topic about whether some specific red truth refered to one specific gameboards or every of them. The rule about the red is not clear too, and sometimes I feel they're very misleading, or turn out to be a Jedi truth kind of statement.

And actually I have to admit that I always got confused about what the Gold is. In my head I always see it as something along the like: "I'm the author and I told you that, so just take my words and shut up will you?"

On a serious note, I think it's when the author/gamemaster asked us to believe something, because our belief is nescessary for the story to continue.
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Old 2014-03-22, 11:12   Link #34138
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I won't blame them. The story keep getting more and more meta. Some events we're not even sure on which layer of reality. There're lot of argument in this topic about whether some specific red truth refered to one specific gameboards or every of them. The rule about the red is not clear too, and sometimes I feel they're very misleading, or turn out to be a Jedi truth kind of statement.

And actually I have to admit that I always got confused about what the Gold is. In my head I always see it as something along the like: "I'm the author and I told you that, so just take my words and shut up will you?"

On a serious note, I think it's when the author/gamemaster asked us to believe something, because our belief is nescessary for the story to continue.
I think we might get an explanation about what gold is later in the manga as it has already explained red... and it'll probably explained gold as well... at least I hope.

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The difficulty about Battler is, at the end we realise, just like Kinzo or Yasu, we practically know nothing about him at all. The narratives of the first two is kinda an ideal version of Yasu imagination of him (I think she played up his womanizer aspect ). The rest of the narratives, especially Chiru, sometimes put some grey shades into his characters, and yes, it definitely shows us that he was not so unaware of everything like we initially thought. But which schemes did he involve in and to which extent? We don't know anything. It's even more suspicious when Touya claimed that he did not want to return to be Battler again, but that could be interpreted in a thousands way.

I know that Black Battler is meant to be a joke of R07 (in the extra tip at least), but for some reason I cannot think of a sure way to discredit that theory. No, in my mind due to lack of valid evidence claimming otherwise, Battler-culprit is still a possible solution. After all, looking back, what do we know about the Battler of Rockenjima Prime? Practically nothing! He's just like a blank canvas. Even more than Yasu, because at least Yasu shows hints of her personality when you re-read the episodes written by her. About Battler, all we have is hints and I feel that there're nothing concrete in those hints.
Well, to be honest Yasu heard about him by Rudolf, who kept tabs on him, so she didn't totally made him up, and surely in Prime he had plenty of classmates, friends, teachers and people who went to gym with him to whom people could ask, post-incident, which sort of person he was so, if he was really that dark as... let's say Kyrie, it should have showed up more explicitly.

Battler looks more like the brash guy who means well but has an odd sense of humour and here and there lacks the tact to realize he might be hurting someone's feelings. The type that might get in a fight with you because he thinks you wronged him or someone else but that won't bully someone who's weaker on purpose.

I think though that Battler had his share of dark feelings, but they aren't callous or murderous, more the type we all can have when we get angry, jealous, disappointed or irritated.

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And why didn't he return in the fragment when Yasu exist? I cannot help thinking that in that universe, his comming back does not require for some reason (some schemes are not needed, like the siblings doesn't need to expose Kinzo's death). That means his return always has a certain purpose, and without all the mess with Yasu's existence, that purpose is lost.
Maybe it's only wishful thinking but I've been wondering if Battler returned to Prime due to Shannon and only pretended not remembering about her.
In Ep 5 he lamented how Beatrice lost hope and didn't wait for him and in Ep 6 he told to chick Beato he needed only her to believe in him and when his trick doesn't work he continues to think to a way to try and get out of the room he closed himself in although he'll manage only thanks to Beato's help.
If you see that closed room as the world out of Rokkenjima and Beato's help as her organizing things so that Rudolf will feel he needs Battler's help on Rokkenjima and went to ask him to return back to the family you've a Battler who always wanted to come back to Rokkenjima but 'closed himself out of it'.

In Lion's world Shannon doesn't exist so he has no special need to go back on Rokkenjima when he might know his parents are about to start a war to stal Lion's chair.
Battler knows they're greedy and doesn't expect much from them nor hope he can stop them so maybe he just contented himself by keeping far.

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Originally Posted by ndqanh_vn View Post
The weird thing is, that kind of situation applied to many characters in the series, not just Battler: Kinzo, Kumasawa, Kyrie, Eva...

At the end, it created a strange feeling, like I have been knowing those people for a really long time, I know their stories, I know them so well like old friends, but at the end, I know nothing about them. I wonder if it is somehow the author's intention?
Well, I think the truth is we were supposed to know well the pieces, not the real people. Umineko makes a big distinction between being a piece and therefore being something others can use and being yourself.
Battler can be forced to become the culprit when in piece form even if he has no motive for murdering people just because he technically can kill people. EP 5 PieceYasu can be forced to sacrifice her plan to get Battler to remember his promise and focus solely on revenge but we know it's unlikely real Yasu did it.

So yes, the people in Prime weren't necessarily portraied faithfully by their piece version who was, after all, also an interpretation of their own self done by the gamemaster and not their true nature.

However I think that with the exceptions in which the witches tampered with the gameboard the pieces acted more or less close to their true selves as they looked to the outside world. So... we'll know about them as much as an external observer can know.
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Old 2014-03-22, 11:39   Link #34139
ndqanh_vn
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I think we might get an explanation about what gold is later in the manga as it has already explained red... and it'll probably explained gold as well... at least I hope.
I noticed the manga is sometimes making thing clearer than the game too. Honestly, even though the chance of Chiru getting animated is close to zero, I still hope that if they do it, they would follow the manga version of EP 8.

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Well, to be honest Yasu heard about him by Rudolf, who kept tabs on him, so she didn't totally made him up, and surely in Prime he had plenty of classmates, friends, teachers and people who went to gym with him to whom people could ask, post-incident, which sort of person he was so, if he was really that dark as... let's say Kyrie, it should have showed up more explicitly.

Ah, it's not the only time I hope we got the knowledge of what the public in Prime is capable of...a bit of investigation would shed so much light on Shkanon situation, but we never see it.

And I do think if Battler is a manipulative bastard deep inside, people around him won't get close enough to him to notice. And Yasu, I know she could be smart (and dumb at the same times), but her point of view is quite...subjective when it comes to some certain matters.

Yes I agree that at the end, we really don't know much about them than the perception of various sources about them... Just like Battler said, the image of Kinzo could have been twisted into a demonic old guy, and he could soften down and be really sweet and cute to his immediate family when he got older, who knows?

I definitely do not have enough proof to know.
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Old 2014-03-22, 12:01   Link #34140
jjblue1
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Originally Posted by ndqanh_vn View Post
I noticed the manga is sometimes making thing clearer than the game too. Honestly, even though the chance of Chiru getting animated is close to zero, I still hope that if they do it, they would follow the manga version of EP 8.
Same here!

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Originally Posted by ndqanh_vn View Post
Ah, it's not the only time I hope we got the knowledge of what the public in Prime is capable of...a bit of investigation would shed so much light on Shkanon situation, but we never see it.

And I do think if Battler is a manipulative bastard deep inside, people around him won't get close enough to him to notice. And Yasu, I know she could be smart (and dumb at the same times), but her point of view is quite...subjective when it comes to some certain matters.

Yes I agree that at the end, we really don't know much about them than the perception of various sources about them... Just like Battler said, the image of Kinzo could have been twisted into a demonic old guy, and he could soften down and be really sweet and cute to his immediate family when he got older, who knows?

I definitely do not have enough proof to know.
Well, maybe there was investigation about this mysterious servant that Kanon was but as Kanon didn't seem suspicious that little that was found might have seemed of no interest to speculate further.
The police might be a different matter althogether but maybe info that the police found about Kanon and how he seemed to not exist were never shared with the public.

Well, unless Battler is a genius or people around him are really guillible or he rarely uses his manipulative bastard ability, someone should notice how he got others to do what he wanted and report it. Maybe they wouldn't grasp how much of a manipulative bastard he was but it should show up.

Instead at best we get he had anger issues with his father but that he solved them by leaving the family and that he gradually got back on being close to them or that he was playful and didn't seem to take girls' crushes on him seriously.

The best Ep 7 Teaparty could say against him was he felt a bit jealous about George and Shannon being together.

So I think Battler was a pretty normal guy in the end, not quite my idea of evil mastermind.

Yasu isn't smart and dumb at the same time. She's good on certain things and bad at others. For example she knows how to perform her work well but she's prone to get distracted or nervous when put under pressure so she ends up making mistakes not because she doesn't know how to do it but because she was thinking at other stuffs or was too nervous to control herself.

Kinzo's true face is quite hidden from the public view because there are basically no survivors that can talk of what a sweet grandad Kinzo was (if we are to assume he was a sweet grandad) as this might have been viewed only by his immediate family and friends (Nanjo and Genji) and they all died apart from Ange who doesn't remember and Eva who isn't talking.

Kinzo lives secluded on an island and interacted with the outside world only on a professional level, in which he was quite ruthless so that's the only side of him that survived.

If Rosa had also lived on an island we would probably not know she mistreated Maria but as she lived in the outside world and she and Maria interacted with it quite a bit people ended up knowing even her pesonal side and not just how she handled business.

Battler wasn't living on a island nor he really had a need to sell himself as hugely different from what he was so it's more likely he has many people that could describe him as he was.

Of course this is speculation but considering the material we have it makes sense that Battler was, more or less, the guy we saw and not someone hugely different from him.
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