[Game] Umineko no Naku Koro ni Chiru - Ep. 8 Twilight of the golden witch

[James Lame]

Alright, i recently started playing the 50% Trans patch and I'm already slightly confused.

What's with Kinzo being alive? What happened to "Kinzo is already dead at the starting time for all games!"?

[AuraTwilight]

Red doesn't predict the future.

[Jan-Poo]

obviously red can apply to future and past games or only to past games on ryuukishi's whim.

For example the red about "nobody could mistake Kinzo by sight" was still valid in EP5 even if it was said in EP4.

However this particular red about Kinzo being already dead apparently follows different rules.

[Renall]

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

Spoiler for Bullshit:

If she was truly driven to consequentialism she wouldn't of tried to justify it by suspecting him of being in on the assassination.

Most consequentialists are pretty bad at it.

[Azule]

I think that some red's can apply to future games, but some can't.
Kinzo is dead at the start time for all games doesn't account for a different gamemaster or someone with a different set of rules.
Nobody would mistake Kinzo by sight does account for different gamemasters and different rules, since it's basically a law to the way the game plays out.

That's what I think of it, anyway. I don't know if that's really how it works or not.

[LyricalAura]

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

Red doesn't predict the future.

It can within individual individual games ("I am about to kill you." "None escape, all die."), just not between games.

[Renall]

Originally Posted by LyricalAura

It can within individual individual games ("I am about to kill you." "None escape, all die."), just not between games.

Arguably, predictive or opinion-based reds don't count because they have no inherent truth value. See Beatrice's taunting reds in ep2.

The point is more that a statement with a definitive truth value doesn't actually say anything substantive about the context in which it applies. Even Kinzo is dead doesn't actually apply to anything without a qualifier like "in this game." And even then the qualifier is capable of being questioned.

I wouldn't harp on this, but Ryukishi did, so it's fair game I guess.

[Witch of Nonsense]

I just discovered this bit of 'translated dialogue' (which is obviously NOT the real translation to the bits of text) while re-editing the script of EP8, after cheating my way to 18 medals.
Of course, this was discovered in Witch Hunts patch. I don't own anything.

Do not read if you do not intend to laugh for the next hour.

Spoiler for Easter Egg:

This scene plays after Ange tosses the gift into the ocean, on Kawabata's boat. As I can't provide any screenshots because the English parts end before that part, I'll write down the name of the characters.

Ange: I threw *gift* into the ocean.
Amakusa: "...What was that?"
Ange: "A toilet brush. ......What did it look like?"
Amakusa: "Yes, I can see that you'd have no use for that."
Ange: "......That's not what I meant. I meant I've had enough of being human."
Amakusa: "?"

Ange: That long journey wasn't a waste.
I now have a new way to live.

And that isn't as a human.

I am now......a toilet brush.

"Captain, sorry, but would you mind leaving for a second?"
Captain Kawabata: "Hmm? Sure, whatever you say."

- Captain Kawabata buried his face in the driver's seat. -

Amakusa: "......What is it, Lady? Why the troubled face?"
Ange: "I want...to be a toilet brush."
Amakusa: "You already are."
Ange: "True. ......If I could wipe off the sludge of the Ushiromiya family and donate it to charity, everything would be clean. Then I could scrub away the left over bits of Ushiromiya Ange."
Amakusa: "............
......That seems a waste of good sludge."
Ange: "Who cares? I don't need it."
Amakusa: ".........That may be true. ......Then again, not all of that sludge belongs to you. ......For example..."
Ange: "You mean Okonogi?"
Amakusa: "......That's right. He might just be a scrap of paper to you, but the fate of a huge company rests on him... I don't think he could stand the weight."

Ange: "Yeah, I know. Mmm, cake."

If any of the Witch Hunters has a problem with me putting up the Easter Egg dialogue then I'll delete this post, of course.
But as most of the fellow users won't ever see this piece of awesomeness, I thought I'd share it with the forum.

[James Lame]

Fair enough, thanks for the clarification.

[AuraTwilight]

What I meant about the reds predicting the future is that things are subject to change even if they were true at the time. An author can say that a character is dead in all the games they wrote or will wrote, but it does nothing to prevent Bernkastel or Battler altering the premise in order to express a different point or objective than what Beatrice had been going for. Note that EP6 was considered the 'final game' by all characters involved.

[Klashikari]

I'm personally not too sure why we should take Bern's game as part of Beatrice's premises.
Her game itself is basically a digest "literal game" instead of a gameboard whatsoever, not even close to the "odd" ones with Erika etc.

[Kylon99]

Originally Posted by James Lame

What's with Kinzo being alive? What happened to "Kinzo is already dead at the starting time for all games!"?

Back when I theorized about this, I noted that if the author didn't conform to central core concepts, then it wouldn't be an Umineko game.

Perhaps EP8, with Battler presenting the story as such doesn't really qualify as an Umineko game the same way that Beatrice's games do. You can even see how Ange reacted to it calling it fake. I thought it was more about how Battler wanted to show Ange a side to her family more than coming up with a legitimate and accurate 'game' anyways.

And anyways, Ryukishi mentioned the mystery part of Umineko was finished as of EP7, so EP8 is more of a story instead, I'd think.

EDIT: Oops... that's what I get for sneaking in posts at work... AuraTwilight said it just as clearly... 8)

[Jan-Poo]

Originally Posted by Witch of Nonsense

I just discovered this bit of 'translated dialogue' (which is obviously NOT the real translation to the bits of text) while re-editing the script of EP8, after cheating my way to 18 medals.
Of course, this was discovered in Witch Hunts patch. I don't own anything.

Do not read if you do not intend to laugh for the next hour.

Spoiler for Easter Egg:

This scene plays after Ange tosses the gift into the ocean, on Kawabata's boat. As I can't provide any screenshots because the English parts end before that part, I'll write down the name of the characters.

Ange: I threw *gift* into the ocean.
Amakusa: "...What was that?"
Ange: "A toilet brush. ......What did it look like?"
Amakusa: "Yes, I can see that you'd have no use for that."
Ange: "......That's not what I meant. I meant I've had enough of being human."
Amakusa: "?"

Ange: That long journey wasn't a waste.
I now have a new way to live.

And that isn't as a human.

I am now......a toilet brush.

"Captain, sorry, but would you mind leaving for a second?"
Captain Kawabata: "Hmm? Sure, whatever you say."

- Captain Kawabata buried his face in the driver's seat. -

Amakusa: "......What is it, Lady? Why the troubled face?"
Ange: "I want...to be a toilet brush."
Amakusa: "You already are."
Ange: "True. ......If I could wipe off the sludge of the Ushiromiya family and donate it to charity, everything would be clean. Then I could scrub away the left over bits of Ushiromiya Ange."
Amakusa: "............
......That seems a waste of good sludge."
Ange: "Who cares? I don't need it."
Amakusa: ".........That may be true. ......Then again, not all of that sludge belongs to you. ......For example..."
Ange: "You mean Okonogi?"
Amakusa: "......That's right. He might just be a scrap of paper to you, but the fate of a huge company rests on him... I don't think he could stand the weight."

Ange: "Yeah, I know. Mmm, cake."

If any of the Witch Hunters has a problem with me putting up the Easter Egg dialogue then I'll delete this post, of course.
But as most of the fellow users won't ever see this piece of awesomeness, I thought I'd share it with the forum.

Chrono must have been bored XD

[Witch of Nonsense]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

Chrono must have been bored XD

My thoughts exactly. xD
Never would've thought I'd find (funny) nonsense like this in the patch.

[ferthepoet]

Hey just finished reading the 50% patch.... one question..... does it makes any difference which cake slice you choose?

[UsagiTenpura]

None at all.
I believe it's a direct message from Ryuukishi, that "probability doesn't exist in Umineko".
Or rather a confirmation of it.

[ferthepoet]

Another question I used the Battler/Kyrie/Rudolf answer to get the story to progress as I had been spoiled and I see how it fits with the rules, but why aren't other solutions acceptable, besides Erica's solution, everyone being a culprit and purple not meaning anything would also work, or any combination of 2 families would also work.

Plus I'm confused about the part of the first twilight culprit killing 6 people...... obviously rudolf/kyrie did not kill 6 people in the first twilight so should it be taking as the one who did the killings in the first twilight went to kill at least 6 people during the whole game?

[UsagiTenpura]

For your first question, I believe Ryuukishi was paralleling arc 6's cheese question.
The answer written on the back of the question card was "3". Battler and Erika reached "1".
Kyrie/Rudolph/Battler is the answer "written on the back of the question card".

Everyone cannot be a culprit, because culprits cannot die yet have to commit murder to be considered culprit. There's other possibilities that works tho, including Yasu.

For your other question, it's supposed to be "Rosa/Genji/Hideyoshi/Eva" of the FT + "Krauss/Natsuhi" that makes up six victims.

[AuraTwilight]

None at all.
I believe it's a direct message from Ryuukishi, that "probability doesn't exist in Umineko".
Or rather a confirmation of it.

Oh, it most certainly does, but the cake slice thing was obviously a rigged game. What it does tell us, though, is that your odds of winning aren't altered by what you subjectively know; it can only confirm or deny when you open the box.

[rogerpepitone]

Exactly how many questions did Claire ask at the end of E7, and how many puzzles were there in E8?

Some of the puzzles (Rudolf's, Kyrie's) were straight logic puzzles. Some (Kinzo's, Eva's) are open trick questions: they focus on the part that's difficult. Some (Rosa's, Maria's) are hidden trick questions: they try to get you to answer a question that isn't the one being asked.