Weed vs. Alcohol

[Random32]

if you define heavy user like that
any heavy user of anything is bad

I knew a heavy gamer, he had to repeat a grade and still lives with his parents last time I checked
I know several heavy drinkers, I don't want to be any of their respective children
I know a few heavy workers, wouldn't want to be their children either
I could go on forever, too much of anything is bad

so lets ignore heavy users under your definition of heavy users

people that regulary smoke weed are better off than people that regularly drink alcohol

[Kaijo]

Originally Posted by Reckoner

Your comparison is an appeal to ridicule and is simply an attempt to run away from an actual response.

That is your opinion, but I will concede the point partially, as I didn't expand on it and explain enough of it, apparently. It was more an analogy, where I compared weed smoking to driving; both are dangerous, and both have the capability to kill people. But both are highly useful for a number of things, and both can be done safely.

Especially since, as noted from my link, weed can't actually kill you will alcohol can. No one really dies from weed (unless they have some allergic reaction), while drinking enough can kill you. I've never met an abusive stoner, but met plenty of abusive drunks. Given the choice, I'd rather someone around me be stoned, rather than drunk.

[hinakatbklyn]

Can't say I tried weed and I don't plan on trying it. Alcohol, maybe a special occasion but that's it. If I thought it was OK to drink a little, having a family member drunk (and angry) scared me straight.

[Reckoner]

Originally Posted by Kaijo

That is your opinion, but I will concede the point partially, as I didn't expand on it and explain enough of it, apparently. It was more an analogy, where I compared weed smoking to driving; both are dangerous, and both have the capability to kill people. But both are highly useful for a number of things, and both can be done safely.

Especially since, as noted from my link, weed can't actually kill you will alcohol can. No one really dies from weed (unless they have some allergic reaction), while drinking enough can kill you. I've never met an abusive stoner, but met plenty of abusive drunks. Given the choice, I'd rather someone around me be stoned, rather than drunk.

I wasn't talking about alcohol, but I'm also against alcohol if you knew my stance, but I'm not going to argue about alcohol.

And my problem isn't exactly just the physical health of a person who constantly uses weed, it's more the mental. It screws with people's minds over time from "my" experience.

But like I said before, I'll let people destroy their own lives, I have no right to say otherwise, unless it directly affects other people (Driving while high).

Originally Posted by Random32

if you define heavy user like that
any heavy user of anything is bad

I knew a heavy gamer, he had to repeat a grade and still lives with his parents last time I checked
I know several heavy drinkers, I don't want to be any of their respective children
I know a few heavy workers, wouldn't want to be their children either
I could go on forever, too much of anything is bad

so lets ignore heavy users under your definition of heavy users

people that regulary smoke weed are better off than people that regularly drink alcohol

You're commiting the lgoical fallacy of two wrongs make a right.

What I am stating, is simply my experience in life. It's not fact, but many smokers I know never live to their full potential or fully make use of what "I" see of their time. Smoking in particular leads several to an easy path of abuse.

My best friend gets horrible grades in college because he's too busy smoking all the time these days when really he is a smart guy who used to work hard. What's the difference between him then and him now? Just the pot.

[Sheba]

I'll just add to Reckoner's post. When I talk about my stoners friends, it is also from experience, and to have this handwaved with a "lol idiots" felt downright insulting. Also, I have said nowhere that alcohol is way better.

What I am going against in this thread is the spreading of the double standard that is "The cool rastaman who smokes weed" on one side and "the wife beating alcoholic loser" on the other side.
Even the opening post was heavily biased. It minimized the "good" effects of alcohol (less inihibitions, meaning that usually shy or uptight persons will actually be more talkative and sociable in occasions, it also makes the imagination run wilder, the cliche of the writer who down a glass of scotch whisky exists for a reason), and he grossly minimized the bad sides of cannabis like lung cancer is preferable to kidney damage (in case of "bad trips", weed smokers can get paranoid or panic crisis). And in the end, the OP even spell it out for you if you did not fully read, "Weed is the better choice".

But you know, just because you think that weed is safer does not mean that weed is safe. People can have "un mauvais vin" (a bad reaction to alcohol), true, but guys who gets bad trips DOES exist, and no it does not involve mixing products.

[Kaijo]

Originally Posted by Reckoner

And my problem isn't exactly just the physical health of a person who constantly uses weed, it's more the mental. It screws with people's minds over time from "my" experience.

Personal anecdotes are pointless. My personal anecdote is that I've known several upstanding pot smokers who led very rich and responsible lives. Oh hey, guess that means pot is a good thing, eh?

Or we can go with facts. Anything "can" screw with someone's mind over time, but pot is *much* less likely to screw with someone's mind over time. In a lot of ways, it's a lot like giving sugar to a kid; momentary effects that eventually wear off, with very minor long-term effects, if any (depends on metabolism and lifestyle).

Do you want to outlaw sugar, too?

I agree with you that alcohol and weed, when taken as drugs for pleasure, are a bad thing. If I could, I'd use my god powers and stop all drug use. But we're dealing with human nature here, and reality, and that just isn't possible. America already found out the hard way that you can't just write a law and outlaw things (prohibition).

In fact, doing so causes more harm than making them legal and regulating/taxing them. So instead of the money going to criminal gangs and resulting in more upheavel/death/violence/etc, the government gets money that they can use to spread a better anti-drug message as well as treat people suffering from it. From a practical and pragmatic point of view, that tends to be the better option.

But like I said before, I'll let people destroy their own lives, I have no right to say otherwise, unless it directly affects other people (Driving while high).

That's pretty much the crux. I'm on the side of letting people have the freedom to do what they wish, as long as they don't bring harm to another. So as much as I don't like alcohol and other recreational drugs, I respect another's right to do so, as long as they do so responsibly.

[qoute]What I am stating, is simply my experience in life. It's not fact, but many smokers I know never live to their full potential or fully make use of what "I" see of their time. Smoking in particular leads several to an easy path of abuse.[/QUOTE]

You need to make a clear distinction here, because smoking tobacco and pot are two separate things. Other than the fact that you can light pot on fire, the two are completely different. I'd say your friend is just lazy, and blaming pot instead of him is the easy way out. So I'd advise you not to confuse the two.

Pot, like many other things such as watching anime or playing video games, is an activity one does for pleasure. There is the potential for addiction or for the activity to take over one's life, but shouldn't be used as the scapegoat for what amounts to a personal decision.

[sergho]

Legalizing a drug is a trade off.

Yes, it does cut down on crime some, but if you tax it too much, it'll just go illegal again, ala tobacco.

And the cost is lives ruined. Sure some can handle weed, but some can't. It saps them of their ambition and they find themselves spending a large part of their earnings on weed. Some get high at lunch and don't work from lunch to quiting time.

That's the social cost.

If we legalize pot, we should legalize heroin too. I'd rather work with a heroin addict than a pot head any day. You can't even tell if a heroin addict is using.

[Reckoner]

Originally Posted by Kaijo

Personal anecdotes are pointless. My personal anecdote is that I've known several upstanding pot smokers who led very rich and responsible lives. Oh hey, guess that means pot is a good thing, eh?

Or we can go with facts. Anything "can" screw with someone's mind over time, but pot is *much* less likely to screw with someone's mind over time. In a lot of ways, it's a lot like giving sugar to a kid; momentary effects that eventually wear off, with very minor long-term effects, if any (depends on metabolism and lifestyle).

Do you want to outlaw sugar, too?

I agree with you that alcohol and weed, when taken as drugs for pleasure, are a bad thing. If I could, I'd use my god powers and stop all drug use. But we're dealing with human nature here, and reality, and that just isn't possible. America already found out the hard way that you can't just write a law and outlaw things (prohibition).

In fact, doing so causes more harm than making them legal and regulating/taxing them. So instead of the money going to criminal gangs and resulting in more upheavel/death/violence/etc, the government gets money that they can use to spread a better anti-drug message as well as treat people suffering from it. From a practical and pragmatic point of view, that tends to be the better option.



That's pretty much the crux. I'm on the side of letting people have the freedom to do what they wish, as long as they don't bring harm to another. So as much as I don't like alcohol and other recreational drugs, I respect another's right to do so, as long as they do so responsibly.

[qoute]What I am stating, is simply my experience in life. It's not fact, but many smokers I know never live to their full potential or fully make use of what "I" see of their time. Smoking in particular leads several to an easy path of abuse.

You need to make a clear distinction here, because smoking tobacco and pot are two separate things. Other than the fact that you can light pot on fire, the two are completely different. I'd say your friend is just lazy, and blaming pot instead of him is the easy way out. So I'd advise you not to confuse the two.

Pot, like many other things such as watching anime or playing video games, is an activity one does for pleasure. There is the potential for addiction or for the activity to take over one's life, but shouldn't be used as the scapegoat for what amounts to a personal decision.

This is an opinion thread more than anything, so I wouldn't say personal anecdotes are useless. Did I ever preach to anyone here to stop their smoking? I just told people of how it has destroyed the lives of many around me, including some in my family. Also, I just explained how I personally view people who engage in such a habit. That is all.

Also, your sugar example is simply once again an appeal to ridicule, and you are using a straw man argument when you even ask about outlawing (Since I never stated that it should be outlawed, just think it is a stupid choice in life for people to make).

And please stop the two wrongs make a right fallacy. It doesn't justify your habit as being good, or any "less" bad.

P.S. I never mixed up pot with tobacco so I have no idea where that came from by the way...

[Dilla]

Dude, please stop with that quoting Wikipedia bull, it's very grating when people do that. It's not a good look.

Just make your rebuttal and be done with it.

[Reckoner]

Originally Posted by Dilla

Dude, please stop with that quoting Wikipedia bull, it's very grating when people do that. It's not a good look.

Just make your rebuttal and be done with it.

Ad hominem. Attacking me instead of my points does little to nothing in this debate.

[Pocky Yoshi]

Well, this was an opinionated topic from the start. To me, it just simply screams "Support me as I preach that weed doesn't kills as much people as alcohol" or what not. Sure, certain people who take them are "swell" people. But try to consider that not everyone on this forum is like you, topic creator. As for weed and alcohol, both are harmful. But, it's your body and you do whatever you like with it. So no offense, forcing opinionated facts/beliefs onto others is a .

[Kudryavka]

Originally Posted by NamuSkull

Well, this was an opinionated topic from the start. To me, it just simply screams "Support me as I preach that weed doesn't kills as much people as alcohol" or what not. Sure, certain people who take them are "swell" people. But try to consider that not everyone on this forum is like you, topic creator. As for weed and alcohol, both are harmful. But, it's your body and you do whatever you like with it. So no offense, forcing opinionated facts/beliefs onto others is a .

Just reading the title, I know it's going to be opinionated. And on the internet, with conflicting opinions come...!

I'd like to talk about the US Legal Weed if it's Taxed law. Will it put weed on the same level as cigarettes, make it illegal to advertise on TV and billboards (or is that just a CA law, whoops)?

[Sheba]

Originally Posted by Komari

Will it put weed on the same level as cigarettes, make it illegal to advertise on TV and billboards (or is that just a CA law, whoops)?

Don't worry, it's that way in France too. There used to be ads for alcohol and cigarettes. In the 1980s. But not today. It seems that underage smoking have become a subject of public concern as far as health go. It makes you wonder why the fucking culture endorsed the image of the chain smoking, whisky x coffee chugging frenchman as something cool for so long.

[Kudryavka]

Originally Posted by Sheba

Don't worry, it's that way in France too. There used to be ads for alcohol and cigarettes. In the 1980s. But not today. It seems that underage smoking have become a subject of public concern as far as health go. It makes you wonder why the fucking culture endorsed the image of the chain smoking, whisky x coffee chugging frenchman as something cool for so long.

Because pre-21st century,
-we, as humans, didn't fully understand the dangers of alcohol and smoking
-the companies made lots of money and surely won't tell the public to stop smoking and drinking, or they'll go broke

[Miko Miko]

In my opinion, weed smells horrible, it's illegal and it's not worth like the £10 that people pay for a very small amount. I have never smoked it, and I don't want too, around here all the 'chavs' smoke it, acting the big man and I hate it.. a lot. About health, it's not good for you.. no way, people that say it is are deluded. Although it can be used to calm/slow/relax people with.. certain illnesses (am i right?)

Alcohol, I can't say I never drink! But I don't take it over the top.. It costs a lot, £10 for a bottle of vodka. Might not seem that much, but it adds up. I know an alcoholic and his life is a misery, so I hate alcohol for that reason, although it's his fault.. Health wise, It might not be good for you, but at least it's legal!

but i'm only a baby, so what do I know?

[Random32]

"it's not good for you.. no way, people that say it is are deluded."
most of us pro-weed people aren't saying its good for you, we are saying its safer for you than alcohol

personally, I'd stay away from both except for special occasions

[Throne Invader]

Ughhh Reckoner, your Wikipedia linking to fallacies reminds me of someone else in this forum. Are you two related? Just kidding. Anyways, I am leaning more to your opinion

That aside, even though I'm really against smoking weed and abusing alcohol, I can't really do much since everyone's going to say "It's my life. I can do whatever the hell I want with it." That's probably the last line, argument finished.

For me personally, I have never smoked weed and am not planning to drink any kinds of alcohol. I hate the taste. I just use the disinfectant alcohol to well disinfect and rid germs up to 99.9%. I think I only drank beer before and I hated the taste of that too. Gosh I hate alot of things people are so into nowadays xD

Originally Posted by Miko Miko

but i'm only a baby, so what do I know?

Haha! Miko Miko's so cute!

@Sheba

When you started your statement "....in France too" you reminded me of a friend I met here on AnimeSuki who just disappeared without saying anything. I miss her xD

[Kaijo]

Originally Posted by sergho

Yes, it does cut down on crime some, but if you tax it too much, it'll just go illegal again, ala tobacco.

There is always crime related to items that you can buy. Someone will always want to steal instead of pay. Do you have evidence this is more likely with tobacco than anything else?

Originally Posted by Reckoner

This is an opinion thread more than anything, so I wouldn't say personal anecdotes are useless. Did I ever preach to anyone here to stop their smoking? I just told people of how it has destroyed the lives of many around me, including some in my family. Also, I just explained how I personally view people who engage in such a habit. That is all.

I wouldn't say it's just an opinion thread. While opinions are welcome, to deliberately ignore facts is disengenuous. So yeah, our opinion is that the people around you made stupid choices; many do that with other things, like anime and video games.

Also, your sugar example is simply once again an appeal to ridicule, and you are using a straw man argument when you even ask about outlawing (Since I never stated that it should be outlawed, just think it is a stupid choice in life for people to make).

While others don't like you linking to these things, I actually don't mind. But you have to use them correctly.

You see, I'm using your criteria for pot and evenly applying it to other things to show the flaw. Rather than address the flaw in your argument, you incorrectly try to substitute a wiki link. Both Sugar and Pot are mind-altering substances, and both have ruined lives. Therefore, according to your logic, both are bad. So when you attempt to say "Attempt to ridicule" you're really saying "Stop that, because you're making my argument look bad!"

Somewhere along the line, you used a mind-altering drug: aspirin. In fact, practically every over-the-counter drug is bad when taken in large doses, and have been used to cause death. Suicides for one. Or murder, when you substitute one drug for another.

So it's very ironic that aspirin is legal when it can kill you, and pot isn't.

It's called a double-standard, and being hypocritical. That's the argument. And pot has a variety of very useful medical benefits, the foremost being the relief of pain to people can't can't get their constant pain relieved any other way. The illegality of pot is literally harming people.

And please stop the two wrongs make a right fallacy. It doesn't justify your habit as being good, or any "less" bad.

Unfortunately, humanity isn't perfect, and thus needs real, practical, pragmatic solutions rather than pie-in-the-sky idealism. The idealistic response is to outlaw all bad stuff, like alcohol, and everyone will be better. As we've seen, that doesn't work, or do I need to bring up Prohibition again? Pushing drugs into illegality merely empowers and pushes money into criminal organizations, rather than into government programs which can help treat people suffering from them.

The "two wrongs don't make a right" doesn't really fit here because pot isn't wrong, per se. It's not good or bad. Like everything else, it depends on how it's used. Pot is no worse than taking extreme amusement park rides, which can kill people, too. "Everything in moderation."

And before the argument gets repeated again, we're not saying pot is super, super good. I myself would rather see people not use it. But it's not inherently more dangerous than a ton of other things humans consume and do, thus there is no logical basis for it remaining illegal. Legalize *AND* license/regulate it, same as any other substance.

P.S. I never mixed up pot with tobacco so I have no idea where that came from by the way...

When you just say "smoking" the implication is generally that you're talking about tobacco. Pot itself can be inhaled, but it can also be eaten, or baked into various goods (ie, hash brownies).

[ChainLegacy]

Originally Posted by sergho

Legalizing a drug is a trade off.

Yes, it does cut down on crime some, but if you tax it too much, it'll just go illegal again, ala tobacco.

And the cost is lives ruined. Sure some can handle weed, but some can't. It saps them of their ambition and they find themselves spending a large part of their earnings on weed. Some get high at lunch and don't work from lunch to quiting time.

That's the social cost.

If we legalize pot, we should legalize heroin too. I'd rather work with a heroin addict than a pot head any day. You can't even tell if a heroin addict is using.

All drugs should be legal as the purpose of government is not to protect people from themselves. So yes, I agree we should legalize heroin along with cannabis, even if I STRONGLY disagree with that last bit of your statement. Man, you've got a really twisted opinion on weed, and I think it must stem solely from that friend you complained about a few pages back. Weed isn't ruining all these peoples lives. Most people only use weed every so often on special occasions (remember it ISN'T addictive physically so only a small percent become heavy users). That's unfortunate for you that your friend did that, but you need to balance science and personal experience if you really want an accurate picture of reality. Right now it seems you're weighing your experiences far more heavily than science, especially since you think working with a heroin addict is better.

[sergho]

There is always crime related to items that you can buy. Someone will always want to steal instead of pay. Do you have evidence this is more likely with tobacco than anything else?

Canada has high taxes on tobacco. The smuggling of tobacco is rampant. Google has more info.

The society has to take care of itself just like any living creature. Legalize any recreational drug and society will suffer whether it's a higher crime rate as with alcohol and rapes, molestations and wife beatings, or just reduced ambition as with weed.

I say we keep all the recreational drugs as illegal as possible.