Fate/ Series Q&A

[Kimidori]

ok, just watched F/Z ep 24, how come kirei with all that speed and skills be easily killed by shirou in the end of F/SN? in F/SN last ep he looked totally defenseless without his Angra Mainyu

[Xellos-_^]

Originally Posted by Kimidori

ok, just watched F/Z ep 24, how come kirei with all that speed and skills be easily killed by shirou in the end of F/SN? in F/SN last ep he looked totally defenseless without his Angra Mainyu

Main Character Plot Armor.

[Touko]

Originally Posted by Kimidori

ok, just watched F/Z ep 24, how come kirei with all that speed and skills be easily killed by shirou in the end of F/SN? in F/SN last ep he looked totally defenseless without his Angra Mainyu

Spoiler:

There are two reasons why Zero Kotomine is a pinnacle that Kotomine was never able to reach again:
1. He was equipped with something like 12 Command Spells. Note that each Command Spell is a condensed miracle in itself. If you read the novel, you will see Kotomine actually deflected the Origin Round with Reinforcement from two Command Spells, rather than actually getting shot as shown in the anime. During the original development of F/SN, Nasu had actually planned to have Kotomine defeat Hassan with the power of the remaining Command Spells (rather than just pinning him). Now you see Command Spells are a insanely valuable and powerful commodity.

2. Kotomine had unending fascination and hared against Kiritsugu. No one else in his life was able to invoke that same feeling. And this feeling was the motivation that made him the monster fighting machine in Zero. Shirou just failed to invoke the same emotions in Kotomine.

[mAc Chaos]

Well, the FSN anime is based on the Fate route.

Spoiler:

In the Fate route, Kotomine never really sees what Shirou is capable of. He was overconfident, I guess.

Kotomine was sitting in a defensive bunker with a million tentacles of dark energy at his command against some kid who didn't even know what the Grail War was a few days ago. The last thing he expected was for Shirou to shrug off the curse that nobody could ever defeat and stab him in the chest.

But in the route Heaven's Feel, he goes all out against Shirou and it's awesome. It's pretty much the same as his fight against Kiritsugu except even better.

[Touko]

Spoiler:

Not exactly "better", since he did not have Command Spell Reinforcements, so his hands were pretty much falling apart. Also, he was dying.

He was never able to achieve the glory in Zero ever again.

[Kimidori]

even though, with the speed Kirei showed F/Z, he should be able to dodge shirou dagger even if it was a surprise attack. Kiritsugu attacked him at three times the speed of normal humans at his blind spot and he blocked them all in split second!! yet unable to dodge or block shirou attack even when he have more than a second to see it coming. ether urobuchi say "F**k it" to the original material and buffed him beyond reason or he was severely weakened after F/Z that if it was Kiritsugu in the end of F/SN, he would've been able to kill kirei without any problem

[mAc Chaos]

Well, Kotomine does mention at the end something about "No wonder I got soft" after he got hit.

Shirou is in pretty good shape himself too.

It was always a question how Kotomine got hit there though even looking at the other routes. Shirou is just that epic.

Spoiler:

Plus he just used Avalon to bust out of that cursed mud a second time, so Kotomine was just completely shocked.

TEXT FROM GAME:
He runs.
At the moment he is released from the darkness, his speed is like that of a shooting star.
"Projection? Just who are you!?"
The one overestimating their ability, and the one who cannot even spare to think about such things.
The difference is only an instant, but an instant that decides the outcome.

[Touko]

Originally Posted by Kimidori

even though, with the speed Kirei showed F/Z, he should be able to dodge shirou dagger even if it was a surprise attack. Kiritsugu attacked him at three times the speed of normal humans at his blind spot and he blocked them all in split second!! yet unable to dodge or block shirou attack even when he have more than a second to see it coming. ether urobuchi say "F**k it" to the original material and buffed him beyond reason or he was severely weakened after F/Z that if it was Kiritsugu in the end of F/SN, he would've been able to kill kirei without any problem

No, the super-buff Kotomine was actually Nasu and Takeuchi's idea.

[DragoZERO]

Originally Posted by chaos_alfa

Just read the visual novel for the best experience.

Amen. Can't beat it.

Originally Posted by Xellos-_^

Main Character Plot Armor.

That and because Kirei got soft in those tens years. Plus he underestimated Shirou. Getting stabbed wasn't what got him either - it was the second hit using the stored prana.

And remember, Shirou is bad ass. The anime totally missed this. God, if only ufotable would do Heaven's Feel and set everyone straight.

[mAc Chaos]

He fell into the mud afterwards too.

[Vicious108]

Originally Posted by DragoZERO

That and because Kirei got soft in those tens years.

Spoiler for Heaven's Feel:

He was still tough enough to handily own a Servant like True Assassin though.

So yeah, Main Character Plot Armor is probably still the biggest reason. Not the only one, mind you, but yeah.

[Reckoner]

You guys sure sell Shirou short . We're talking about the person who becomes gArcher. More than anything though, Kotomine was shocked and Shirou was quick. The surprise is what got him.

[Vicious108]

Correction: I sell Fate Shirou short. UBW or HF Shirou were different beasts altogether.

[Kimidori]

so can kirei, at his full strength, kill a F/Z assassin in an one-on-one fight?

[TwilightsCall]

Depends. Though they didn't really cover it in the anime, though i'm not sure if it was in the novel or in the side material, they do mention that each of the different Assassins that make up Assassin/Zero have different strengths, weaknesses, and general abilities.

I'm sure there are a number of them he could plaster, but that being said depending on what those individual strengths and weaknesses are, there could be a fair number that can defeat him as well.

If I had to generalize about Assassin as a whole though, I would speculate that without the command spells Kirei would definitely lose, and with them he would still probably have a difficult time. He only beat True Assassin in HF because of baiting him into using his Noble Phantasm at an inopportune time, so against an Assassin who doesn't have that Noble Phantasm to use he might not be able to find such a convenient opening.

[Touko]

Originally Posted by Kimidori

so can kirei, at his full strength, kill a F/Z assassin in an one-on-one fight?

Spoiler:

According to Nasu, Kotomine with Command Spells can defeat True Assassin, of course he can defeat the weaker Hundred Face Hassan members.

Nasu opted not to use that version of the scene in the final version of Fate/Stay Night because he wanted to show Kotomine's gambit and Hassan failing with the Delusional Heartbeat.

[Ragna92]

Spoiler for Kariya:

Did the anime cut out Kariyas death scene, or does it happen later on?

[GDB]

It happened in ep24. Watch it again.

[Ragna92]

Originally Posted by GDB

It happened in ep24. Watch it again.

Spoiler for Kariya:

From what I heard there is a lot more to his death scene. I'm just hoping they didn't cut it out.

[LostHanyou]

Spoiler:

The true death scene happens later. Unless they cut that.