Macross Delta - Windermere/NUNs War Discussion

[SleepingTerror]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

That's not peace, Heinz still thinks war is better for his people and that he is only stopping for the benefit of his enemies.

Well that's good isn't it? He's stopped because he now understands his enemies; he empathized with them. War, if you consider the country/nation as a whole, is profitable. If you consider the people you're killing off as a result, then it's not profitable and it's best to stop right there.
I disagree with your suggestion that Windermere will have no problem starting another war/wars. While I think Heinz and Windermere should show more remorse, I don't think they will start another war because they're starting to think about others.

[Father Hentai]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

Heinz has shown no sign of thinking there is anything wrong with the war, and as such will have another war at any time. That's not peace, Heinz still thinks war is better for his people and that he is only stopping for the benefit of his enemies. He doesn't believe in peace at all.

Have you missed watching episode 26 or how comes that you missed his part to end the war?

These were his words, when speaking with Keith:
"I could feel the wind of ten of thousands of lives being extinguished. Is this the burden Father had to shoulder?"

"From now on, I'll take part in this as well. But it is not my intention to needlessly spill blood. Now that they have witnessed the power of the song of the stars, I will initiate peace talks."

And now the important part: "I will end this struggle once and for all."

Are you saying that Heinz is a liar? Sorry, but the last thing where you would describe Heinz is that he is lying. He may be inexperienced and easy to manipulate. But lying is not in his character description.

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Of course Windermere want peace talks. But they want peace talks from the position of strength, because they still think they are the good guys. Don't be surprised if they insist on keeping the four planets they conquered as their compensation for peace. A new empire for the Master-race.

[HirouKeimou]

@Vallen_Chaos_Valiant: Unfortunately, Kawamori does not share your views, and will probably never share your view.

Personally, I'm satisfied when a series leaves even a little open for fan interpretation (i.e. open-ended triangular in Frontier; Megaroad-01 vanishing in DYRL / SDF-1) because it gives fans reasons to continue theorizing if events will occur in future installments in the franchise.

Becoming angry and/or disappointed by an open-ending where war is concerned is kind of... pointless, really; after all, in Frontier TV, Galaxy is alive (Grace dies, Galaxy does not) and no resolution on it; Gundam 00 had issues resolving its main conflict, too (specifically how one faction is alive regardless of the movie entry). War in anime is not really resolved for pleasing its fans (hell, Code Geass is an example of this: all of his ambitions, killing millions of people for an endgame where he dies... totally worth his whole conquest... ); it's resolving conflict enough so it'll be considered "finished."

Plus, in the Macross franchise, Kawamori says it himself that he doesn't like dealing with aftermath of war (which is #1 reason why SDF-1 episodes 28 through 36 were a piece of crap for most people).

@Father_Hentai: Yes, I agree.

Heinz is now focusing primarily on his planet's future because now he is alone in this (Roid and Keith dead), his military is in disarray, and his father's goals are mashed into the ground by Roid (who he followed blindly). He knows it'll be best for his people if he negotiates with Chaos (specifically Chaos because he'll never forgive NUNS). He'll be a good leader for the remainder of his life if he does this (because it'll show great strength from him: burying the past and moving forward).

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Father Hentai

uhm. Sorry, but the ones who have xenophobic tendencies are humans. It's proven in Frontier, it's proven in Delta.

What complete and utter nonsense on your part. The major human characters in Delta have not shown even the slightest hint of xenophobia or racism towards Freyja, Mirage, or Chuck. Delta Squadron is incredibly diverse representing multiple alien peoples, and it still typically has a very warm family feel to it.

At the same time, the Windermere characters frequently sound like racial supremacists. A few Windermere soldiers enjoying a Walkure performance doesn't change that.

Originally Posted by HirouKeimou

Oh for the love of God; it's an anime which doesn't necessarily pile on blood and gore, and sends messages of peace, friendship, and love for resolving conflicts (add HayaFre on here who represent both of their races and love each other regardless).

So what if it's an anime? Plenty of anime address the topic of war, and address it very seriously. Many Gundam shows present the horrors and downsides of war very starkly seriously. A show doesn't need to be gorey in order to do this, just like many Gundam shows aren't gorey.

I thought that Macross was against war. That it argued that peace was better. Having semi-victorious antagonists showing no remorse whatsoever over their horribly warmongering ways is not a good way to have your show speak to the value of peace and mutual understanding.

Originally Posted by HirouKeimou

.

Freyja exists for proving Roid wrong on who Mikumo really is because of friendship and communication; Roid exists for proving how a desire for power will destroy yourself; Keith exists for proving how people can change; and Heinz exists for proving how people recover in the aftermath of learning their life's work is a sham.

There are messages in Delta; you, and a majority of others, overlook them.

How did Keith change? Keith went against Roid purely because Roid's secret master plan wasn't at all what Keith wanted and was also against King Heinz's wishes. That doesn't demonstrate real personal change at all.

What indication is there that Heinz considers his life-work a sham? Do you hear any regret in his voice? Any remorse? Any guilt? Does he say anything that amounts to "My work was all a sham"?

Your Freyja message is awfully context-specific, lessening its value.

Your Roid message, if you're right, is actually a bad message. There's nothing inherently wrong in desiring power. The question is what you plan to do with that power should you gain it.

Originally Posted by HirouKeimou

Heinz is now focusing primarily on his planet's future because now he is alone in this (Roid and Keith dead), his military is in disarray, and his father's goals are mashed into the ground by Roid (who he followed blindly). He knows it'll be best for his people if he negotiates with Chaos (specifically Chaos because he'll never forgive NUNS). He'll be a good leader for the remainder of his life if he does this (because it'll show great strength from him: burying the past and moving forward).

So you think Heinz is lying then? When he says he wants to negotiate peace with NUN?

And it sounds like you actually think it's good that he never forgives NUNs. If he can't put aside his issues with NUNs in order to negotiate peace with them, then he is most definitely not showing strength; he is not burying the past and moving forward.

[HirouKeimou]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

So what if it's an anime? Plenty of anime address the topic of war, and address it very seriously.

The day anime (or TV in general) is considered a presentation for beginning a war will literally be the day I'll wish to die.

Seriously, at some point, people have to draw a line between an anime and real life. None of these conflicts will logically happen, which of course is why it's a damn story!

God, could never picture Hitler going "oh god, my brother / guardian died, hurry up and retreat even if we'll be the winners!" or people saying "oooh, let's sing! That'll solve the Great Depression!"

Originally Posted by Triple_R

I thought that Macross was against war. That it argued that peace was better. Having semi-victorious antagonists showing no remorse whatsoever over their horribly warmongering ways is not a good way to have your show speak to the value of peace and mutual understanding.

Honestly, it is.

Because Windermere and NUNS are the ones creating conflict (prior and current); Macross focuses on our main group: Chaos. Their message is resolving issues through song, which is the reason Walküre sings in the first place, preventing spread of Var. Of course, Freyja is on this wagon because her hope is said outcome, too.

The only reason I believe Windermere receives more focus in Delta is because of complaints in Frontier for Galaxy and Vajra receiving little information for their reasons for their motives.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

How did Keith change? Keith turned on Roid purely because Roid's secret master plan wasn't at all what Keith wanted. That doesn't demonstrate real personal change at all.

So... his whole speech in prior episodes of "if you do this, I'll dispatch you myself" to Roid means little to you?

Gradually, Keith developed as a character from a knight who solely wished to fly to someone who realizes how dire things are, especially because he loves his younger brother who is dying for their cause. His whole reason for fighting had initially been for childish reasons like Alto in Frontier ("all I want is to fly") and gradually evolved over time into him accepting his dream is protecting his planet / people. In the final episode, everything hits the fan, and Keith follows through with his promise to Roid because of his desire not only to protect the Galaxy like he promised Heinz, it's for his sky, his planet.

And all Keith cared about in the beginning is flying.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

What signs is there that Heinz considers his life-work a sham?

The fact he is retreating while Chaos is obviously lowered on defenses right now? The fact he is determined to go home to Windermere? The fact no mention of still eliminating NUNS is discussed in the final couple of scenes with him?

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Your Freyja message is awfully context-specific, lessening its value.

From a logical point, her dream is childish. How does music ultimately end war? All it does is resolve conflicts temporarily (i.e. Rebel Zentradi still pop up, you know); so it is right to call it a "childish dream." However, it's those kinds of dreams which give people hope for a future where no conflict will occur. It'll never happen, but it's the hope they're looking for.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Your Roid message, if you're right, is actually a bad message. There's nothing inherently wrong in desiring power. The question is what you plan to do with that power should you gain it.

That kind of is the point of Roid and Grace in their respective entries in the franchise. Too much power corrupts minds. Desiring power could ultimately corrupt minds (i.e. see Code Geass). His message is basically how power is not a solution for everything.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

So you think Heinz is lying then? When he says he wants to negotiate peace with NUN?

And it sounds like you actually think it's good that he never forgives NUNs. If he can't put aside his issues with NUNs to negotiate peace with them then he is most definitely not showing strength; he is not burying the past and moving forward.

Just because you don't forgive someone doesn't mean you will not negotiate. Forgiveness is something which is earned. And NUNS planning to bomb Ragna / Windermere (again, who cares?) with dimensional eaters is a sign NUNS has not learned their lesson from 7 years prior. Of course Heinz will not forgive them! However, his people come first, so he'll negotiate with Chaos (hopefully).

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by HirouKeimou

The day anime (or TV in general) is considered a presentation for beginning a war will literally be the day I'll wish to die.

I honestly wonder if you realize the implications of what you're saying here.

Because what you're saying basically amounts to this - The way war is presented in fiction is completely inconsequential (unless you think TV/anime fiction is inherently inferior to other forms of fictional narrative). So you don't think there's any value whatsoever to fiction trying to tackle the topic of war?

Honestly, it is.

It most definitely is not. It would obviously be better if Windermere displayed remorse and regret over their warmongering ways. I am frankly appalled that you can't even admit this much!

His whole reason for fighting had initially been for childish reasons like Alto in Frontier ("all I want is to fly") and gradually evolved over time into him accepting his dream is protecting his planet / people.

Keith was fighting for his planet/people right from the very first episode of Delta.

The fact he is retreating while Chaos is obviously lowered on defenses right now?

His own side took major hits itself.

From a logical point, her dream is childish.

Actually no, I don't think it's a childish dream at all. Certainly not in this fictional universe. Not given how powerful music is in Macross-verse. It's not a childish dream at all in Macross-verse. In fact, it's worked before in Macross-verse, has it not? Are the vajra still causing problems for humans post-Frontier?

Just because you don't forgiven someone doesn't mean you will not negotiate. Forgiveness is something which is earned. And NUNS planning to bomb Ragna / Windermere (again, who cares?) with dimensional eaters...

What would you do against people seemingly trying to mind-control the entire galaxy? Don't you think that sort of thing calls for very desperate measures?

Of course Heinz will not forgive them!

Heinz and his people are the ones that should be asking for forgiveness! They should be asking for forgiveness from the Ragnans, from the Voldorians, and from everybody else they severely hurt.

However, his people come first, so he'll negotiate with Chaos (hopefully).

Chaos is just a private military contractor, aren't they? Heinz should suck it up and negotiate with NUNs.

[HirouKeimou]

@Triple_R: Not even going to touch your post because it's like you're missing character development (even if very little in Delta) as a whole for Keith and Heinz, especially.

I also believe you, and various others on this board, believe a Macross series should be playing out a war like ones are held in real life, in a universe where a solution for wars is music. Go on, be disappointed no one paid for their crimes (or whichever crime you claim is applicable); I don't care. Series is over, your answers are shown: It's over.

On Freyja, I'm talking from a logic, real life term of music not solving everything so her dream is therefore childish. However, I also addressed how music even in universe has never solved conflict permanently like she'd hope for, after all, Sheryl Nome and Ranka Lee had equal opportunities for this (especially Sheryl who's life revolved around "shaking the galaxy with her song"); of course, do you see said issues ending? No. In other words, logic is against Freyja's dream. But seriously, her desire for this dream is her fuel, which is again why I commend her for it regardless.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by HirouKeimou

@Triple_R: Not even going to touch your post because it's like you're missing character development (even if very little in Delta) as a whole for Keith and Heinz, especially.

I'm not missing anything. I just don't think your position is strong as you think it is.

On Freyja, I'm talking from a logic, real life term of music not solving everything so her dream is therefore childish. However, I also addressed how music even in universe has never solved conflict permanently like she'd hope for,

I rhetorically ask again - "Are the vajra still causing problems for humans post-Frontier?"

The answer certainly appears to be "no". That's huge. A major conflict was completely ended in no small part thanks to music. Freyja's dream is quite adult in the world of Macross. Lofty and commendable, but adult.

[Obelisk ze Tormentor]

Originally Posted by HirouKeimou

Gundam 00 had issues resolving its main conflict, too (specifically how one faction is alive regardless of the movie entry). War in anime is not really resolved for pleasing its fans (hell, Code Geass is an example of this: all of his ambitions, killing millions of people for an endgame where he dies... totally worth his whole conquest... ); it's resolving conflict enough so it'll be considered "finished."

Honestly dude, you keep comparing Gundam (Endless Waltz, 00) when they did a (far) better job tying up their conflicts compared to Delta. The more you compare Delta with (the aforementioned) Gundams, Delta's resolution for its conflict looks worse and worse. Oh, and which surviving faction in Gundam 00 that you meant in your above post? Maybe I can answer the reason for you.

And yes, Code Geass' ending worth it because Lelouch’s primary drive and most-important ambition is to create a better world for Nunnally and so that she no longer have to live in fear of the Britannia Empire, and his whole campaign finally achieved that goal. It’s totally worth it from Lelouch's POV.

[HirouKeimou]

Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor

Honestly dude, you keep comparing Gundam (Endless Waltz, 00) when they did a (far) better job tying up their conflicts compared to Delta. The more you compare Delta with (the aforementioned) Gundams, Delta's resolution for its conflict looks worse and worse. Oh, and which surviving faction in Gundam 00 that you meant in your above post? Maybe I can answer the reason for you.

And yes, Code Geass' ending worth it because Lelouch’s primary drive and most-important ambition is to create a better world for Nunnally and so that she no longer have to live in fear of the Britannia Empire, and his whole campaign finally achieved that goal. It’s totally worth it from Lelouch's POV.

I'm not a dude (for clarification).

And I compared 00 because a faction survived in general with no explanation for aftermath, which is what everyone over here who is arguing / debating this outcome for Delta is asking for.

And by Code Geass, I'm more of referring to his endgame resolving nothing on-screen; because the series literally ends once he's dead. Kind of made it feel like he accomplished nothing in his endeavors (for the audience). And no, I'm not talking about continuation here because the following OVA/Movie series has a time skip where a new war is being placed (and if I recall, all Lelouch does amounts for nothing in the OVA...; I didn't finish it, couldn't stand it's protagonists...)

As for Delta, during it's air, I could logically join these debates about "aftermath"; however, as Frontier showed, Kawamori handles "aftermath" in Macross now as an explanation in the future installment of Macross. So literally, the whole debate is really pointless because it's either not going to be answered or will be answered in 8 more years, as in when a new Macross comes out.

[Father Hentai]

@Triple_R

the problem is not with Chaos but within NUN. Whoever made the decision to drop a bomb twice and planned to drop a third time has xenophobic tendencies.

To go into the discussion about Keith. He did change after loosing his eye.

If you compare the Keith during the coronation and Keith in his last moments, there is a big change. prior to this event he showed the loyal and distant keeping family member. by the Event in episode 26, he was surprised about the intention of his King. The cutting scene is where he linked his rune with his brother. Keith for the first time smiled towards his brother. This is a lot change.

About Windermere and Heinz. Since NUN has dropped the bomb on Windermere 7 years ago he is not the one to apologize first. It's the ones who led to this event. Before Windermere should be judged, NUN must prove why they did the bombing.

Windermere has a reason to hate but Heinz intends to negotiate peace treaties and within this, one point of this is to resolve the bombing actions. If this is explained maybe the hatred will disappear with time. And Hayate and Freyjas relationship will heal this wound because they show what is the right way.

Then after this is solved, then it''s time to judge about windermere. if you ask me what is worse, then it is a bomb. The casualty counter using mind control did at least not raise a death rate compared to nuking a planet. This does not mean mind control is right. in any event it must be clarified if mind control weapons are legal or illegal. But this is open story.

About using bombs in general and diplomatic relationships. Neither Japan apologized for Pearl Harbor nor did the US officially apologized for Hiroshima and Nagasaki. There are some parallels in delta.

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Then after this is solved, then it''s time to judge about windermere. if you ask me what is worse, then it is a bomb. The casualty counter using mind control did at least not raise a death rate compared to nuking a planet. This does not mean mind control is right. in any event it must be clarified if mind control weapons are legal or illegal. But this is open story.

About using bombs in general and diplomatic relationships. Neither Japan apologized for Pearl Harbor nor did the US officially apologized for Hiroshima and Nagasaki. There are some parallels in delta.

You are completely skipping the four planets and what to do about them. The only thing stopping them from declaring war on Windermere is mind control. So Windermere either rule over the four planets with an iron fist, or be wiped out by them in return. What do you propose that would supposedly allow the four planets to forgive Windermere's imperialistic invasions that murdered so many of their people?

Windermere have not lost the war, so right now the neighbouring planets have not yet gotten their justice. What made you think any of them would give a damn what Windermere want about punishing NUNs? Windermere never gave a damn about what THEY want, and now they will reciprocate in kind.

[Father Hentai]

Voldors Authority gave Windermere their permission to proceed to free the sector of NUN. There are three left. And again. First it is to understand the bombing of Windermere by NUN on Windermere. after this is solved then Windermere will face their action maybe. In any event the outcome of the trial for NUN has a huge impact on the planets windermere needed to establish the starwind sector.

But this is all part of Heinz to settle in his attention for peace treaties.

Also why should Windermere rule over the other planets like a dictatorship.? Heinz does not even show this traits. why a assuming it'll be a tyranny?

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by Father Hentai

Also why should Windermere rule over the other planets like a dictatorship.? Heinz does not even show this traits. why a assuming it'll be a tyranny?

Because the population will rise up, kick them out of their home planets, and then invade Windermere. Why do you even assume Windermere had ANY right to keep their new territory?

Without mind control, Windermere doesn't have the capacity to police a population five times bigger than they had before. So they either rule by tyranny of mind control or lose their rule entirely.

[Obelisk ze Tormentor]

Originally Posted by HirouKeimou

I'm not a dude (for clarification).

My apologies then, lass .

Originally Posted by HirouKeimou

And I compared 00 because a faction survived in general with no explanation for aftermath, which is what everyone over here who is arguing / debating this outcome for Delta is asking for.

The aftermath of Gundam 00 is made quite clear in the epilogue of the second season alone:

Spoiler for Gundam 00 epilogue:

A-Laws and their shady benefactor (Ribbons’ faction) are wiped out. The nations around the world became even more united after being freed from A-Laws’ tyrannical rule. Even Katharon leaders are now part of the union. Celestial Being survived and still doing intervention to some meaningless conflicts while they keep on being hunted by the world government (officially). Marina is rebuilding her kingdom, etc. Heck, even each remaining character got their bits of epilogue in that last episode. What more do you want?

Originally Posted by HirouKeimou

And by Code Geass, I'm more of referring to his endgame resolving nothing on-screen; because the series literally ends once he's dead. Kind of made it feel like he accomplished nothing in his endeavors (for the audience). And no, I'm not talking about continuation here because the following OVA/Movie series has a time skip where a new war is being placed (and if I recall, all Lelouch does amounts for nothing in the OVA...; I didn't finish it, couldn't stand it's protagonists...)

Did you miss the reveal in the final episode of Code Geass R2 where…:

Spoiler for CG ending:

...Lelouch, Suzaku & CC made a plan to antagonize Lelouch (Emperor of Britannia) and then killed him? And after that, Suzaku (posing as Zero) will take care of things in Lelouch’ place? And in the epilogue Nunnaly became the Empress of Britannia with “Zero” on her side while the rest of the aftermath was explained by Kallen and we got glimpses of what the other characters are doing after the big war. Again, what more do you want? An entire episode dedicated for aftermath and epilogue?

Lelouch accomplished the one most important thing that he wanted: a better world for Nunnally to live in. And since he is the MC, the audience (if they paid attention) should understand that Lelouch's campaign is practically a success on that front, all things considered. Oh, and he even got his revenge too as icing on the cake .

[HirouKeimou]

It's alright; it's not like we all call each other "him/her" every post so it's fine. I only wished to point it out for future reference.

Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor

The aftermath of Gundam 00 is made quite clear in the epilogue of the second season alone:

Spoiler for Gundam 00 epilogue:

A-Laws and their shady benefactor (Ribbons’ faction) are wiped out. The nations around the world became even more united after being freed from A-Laws’ tyrannical rule. Even Katharon leaders are now part of the union. Celestial Being survived and still doing intervention to some meaningless conflicts while they keep on being hunted by the world government (officially). Marina is rebuilding her kingdom, etc. Heck, even each remaining character got their bits of epilogue in that last episode. What more do you want?

Movie undid this a little.
And I don't like Gundam as a franchise so I don't know how it's continuity plays out in comparison so I'll of course lump the movie alongside the series. If there's a difference, I apologize, then.

Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor

Did you miss the reveal in the final episode of Code Geass R2 where…:

Spoiler for CG ending:

...Lelouch, Suzaku & CC made a plan to antagonize Lelouch (Emperor of Britannia) and then killed him? And after that, Suzaku (posing as Zero) will take care of things in Lelouch’ place? And in the epilogue Nunnaly became the Empress of Britannia with “Zero” on her side while the rest of the aftermath was explained by Kallen and we got glimpses of what the other characters are doing after the big war. Again, what more do you want? An entire episode dedicated for aftermath and epilogue?

Lelouch accomplished the one most important thing that he wanted: a better world for Nunnally to live in. And since he is the MC, the audience (if they paid attention) should understand that Lelouch's campaign is practically a success on that front, all things considered. Oh, and he even got his revenge too as icing on the cake .

Again, our debate is on aftermath.

He dies. Are we shown how his death did anything other than his prior hopes for it to? No.

And it's not necessary for a whole episode for this, a two or five minute scene alone or even exposition giving details on this could justify if this character died only for those who once held power to rise up again and regain control by killing Zero. That is kind of my point: There is no real telling on if his death did anything to Britannia beyond "killing the evil emperor."

It's kind of Delta in a nutshell; because Roid is killed, what did this do for Windermere? What did Windermere accomplish in all of this? How will Windermere recover from its losses? Again, half it's strongest military, the Aerial Knights, are dead and it's king will be dying soon. This is kind of like Code Geass in "the plot of the main cast is resolved" but the "aftermath for the people (or involved) is not shown."

[Dash_Hunter]

Originally Posted by Father Hentai

Voldors Authority gave Windermere their permission to proceed to free the sector of NUN. There are three left. And again. First it is to understand the bombing of Windermere by NUN on Windermere. after this is solved then Windermere will face their action maybe. In any event the outcome of the trial for NUN has a huge impact on the planets windermere needed to establish the starwind sector.

Yeah well when you have enemy ships and Drakens all over your planet and your military force is under enemy control via mind-control you have to give them "permission" to do as they please.
Did you miss the episode where Mikumo destroys the protoculture ruins? and by doing that they said the Windermereans would not be able to use the song of wind again on Voldor and everyone on the planet was celebrating, so I'm going to guess they were happy to see the windermereans leave.

I do not condone what the NUNS did on Windermere, but windermere already had gained their independence and even if they talked about embargoes and treaties they still were able to export their products, like apples and water (which they used for war) and do business with companies like Epsilon, it's not as if they were completly isolated, so did they really have to conquer other planets? in the end they were doing exactly what NUNS did to them, maybe even worse, because NUNS didn't mind-controlled anyone.

Originally Posted by Father Hentai

Also why should Windermere rule over the other planets like a dictatorship.? Heinz does not even show this traits. why a assuming it'll be a tyranny?

Umm, because we saw how they treated the conquered planets? with all the talk about justice and not being like the NUNS one would expect Windermere to treat better the planets they "freed" but instead they were distributing the var infected apples and water to the population even when they already had control over those planets, they also kept the local militaries under mind-control and their own soldiers and valkyries patroling the street frequently.

I was hoping to see all the planets that Windermere conquered free by the end, maybe in the little epilogue they did, but we just can confirm that Voldor and Ragna are free, what about Ioneth, Randall, Alfheim and the others? they conquered more than just 4 planets, they had control over all the planets of the cluster, if Heinz wants peace he should start by retreating from those planets or at the very least ask the population of said planets if they want Windermere to leave, but maybe democracy is too much to ask from them. Heinz has a bit of space to negotiate because he technically can still use the song of wind, but he is weak from doing it frequently and Walkure got Mikumo back and they can destroy the other ruins if necessary, so they need to reach a deal that is good for all the planets of the Brisingr Cluster.

[Obelisk ze Tormentor]

Originally Posted by HirouKeimou

Movie undid this a little.

Which part?

Originally Posted by HirouKeimou

And I don't like Gundam as a franchis....

Showing a bit of bias, huh? No wonder all you’ve been saying about Gundams are negative stuffs in Macross Delta threads. And most of the negative things you said are not even there.

Originally Posted by HirouKeimou

so I don't know how it's continuity plays out in comparison so I'll of course lump the movie alongside the series. If there's a difference, I apologize, then.

The movie is indeed a direct continuation of both seasons. But they only added a new (foreshadowed) threat and some good innovedos. I don’t remember them undoing the result of the two-season struggles of the characters. Yes, there is a new fight in the movie, but it’s against a new entity which is long foreshadowed in Aeolia Schenberg’s speech in the first season and they finally came in the movie.

Originally Posted by HirouKeimou

Again, our debate is on aftermath.

He dies. Are we shown how his death did anything other than his prior hopes for it to? No.

And it's not necessary for a whole episode for this, a two or five minute scene alone or even exposition giving details on this could justify if this character died only for those who once held power to rise up again and regain control by killing Zero. That is kind of my point: There is no real telling on if his death did anything to Britannia beyond "killing the evil emperor."

It's kind of Delta in a nutshell; because Roid is killed, what did this do for Windermere? What did Windermere accomplish in all of this? How will Windermere recover from its losses? Again, half it's strongest military, the Aerial Knights, are dead and it's king will be dying soon. This is kind of like Code Geass in "the plot of the main cast is resolved" but the "aftermath for the people (or involved) is not shown."

Isn’t the epilogue already explained enough of the aftermath?

Spoiler for CG epilogue:

The “evil” emperor died -> Suzaku/Zero took over -> Nunnally became empress after some time since most of the prominent Britannian family members got massacred by Lelouch & Suzaku -> Zero accompanied Nunnally with the all-time support of Schneizel who is now serving Zero due to the geass put on him. With Schneizel’s support, everything should be pretty easy for Zero & Nunnally to take over the Britannia Empire which just lost their primary leader after Lelouch’s death. Lelouch did all those to rid the tyrannical, bad and foolish high-ranking blue-blooded people of the Britannia and replace them with a more fitting people (by his standard) and make a better world for it. And the audience can connect the dots themselves. They don’t need to be spoonfed that badly.

So yeah, again, the epilogue is enough. Is it totally satisfactory? Not really, but it answered and conclude most of the important questions and plot threads. And it was beautifully executed with good music and great impact too according to most of the audience at the time watching for the first time.

Drawing comparison between Macross Delta's ending with Code Geass' is a bad call for Delta as CG did it miles better and it makes Delta feels even more lackluster overall.

[Magewolf]

I keep seeing NUNS talked about as some great evil but what did they really do? They tried to destroy a military target during a war with the only weapon they had that would effect it, which was stopped by a traitor. They tried their best to stop another war that threatened trillions of beings, that only failed because of the hand of God. Then they brought out the big guns to try a last ditch effort to save the galaxy only to have a fleet of heroes killed by the hand of God again.