Suisei no Gargantia - Episode 10 Discussion / Poll

[Diveman]

Originally Posted by GreyZone

I am a bit confused: When Chamber was talking about how the Hideauze were "giving up their humanity", at that exact moment we could see the "cultists". Maybe their are PRO-Hideauze after all?

Or maybe it was just to show how the GA handles people who have "given up their humanity".

I think the cultists are from Kugel's group. Maybe Kugel did what Ledo didn't, he showed himself as an all powerful being and formed a cult to worship and obey him.

[Cloudedmind]

Whether or not the Hideaze are still human doesn't matter to me, as that doesn't necessarily make them mindless beasts either. We really don't know what their level of intelligence is.

Chamber himself pointed out that the vast difference between the physical makeup of humans and the Hideaze means that the Hideaze have no need for certain types of human constructs, no point in building things you don't need or engaging in things you don't value, doesn't make them any less worthy of existent though, or on the same level as mere animals.

It's kind of sad how the thinking you're either human or an animal hasn't changed. There can in fact be a third way.

So what if the Hideaze gave up their humanity, so what? Who's to say the human way is the only way, or even the best way? In the end that's on each person to decide for themselves, but that doesn't mean the other side are just animals/or have turned into animals or that they should be judged on how much they measure up to our human standards. Why when they may not even be human anymore. Our standards most likely wouldn't apply to them. They may not have need for our human way of thinking, or care about the things we may hold dear, because they're different.

Of course that's not to say that I think the Hideaze are all grand and good and the GA is solely in the wrong, as Chamber pointed out the vast difference between the two have now possibly made it impossible for them to co-exist, one side winning would mean the death /extermination of the other. Both sides are now just fighting for survival.

[Traece]

Originally Posted by Diveman

I think the cultists are from Kugel's group. Maybe Kugel did what Ledo didn't, he showed himself as an all powerful being and formed a cult to worship and obey him.

It would seem that Kugel is the all-powerful destroyer of the whalesquids, the unkillable foe. The dread of mankind. He comes from space to rule us all.

Something like that, was the impression I got. Clearly his little society has a lot to do with his ability to kill whalesquids due to the fact that they were staked all over his ship(s).

[FredFriendly]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

I'm not sure if that counts as co-existence. The whalesquids basically killed any human that dared to cross their borders.

I know I have a short-term memory problem, but I don't remember, other than Pinion's brother, any mention of the whalesquids actually killing humans.

Which also reminds me of one of my earlier posts, which I don't remember anyone responding to, where I pondered what it was that caused the Gargantians to be so fearful of the whalesquids to begin with. When they heard the whalesquid swarm was coming, many of the Gargantians were visibly "frightened to death." Maybe it's my faulty memory again.

Originally Posted by HandofFate

Surprised that even as a mechanic, Pinion was able to repair/install the technology they found.

One minute, they pull some blob of unrecognizable junk out of the water. A couple minutes later, it's all shiny and like new, and ready to blow away the competition. Was this barely believable unbelievable miraculous restoration achievement simply a result of the moron Pinion's incredible skills? So, if he [they] were able to resurrect that ancient piece of computerized technology in a matter of minutes, why did Pinion need Chamber's help in discovering what that other piece of junk was? Is this just another case of anime logic?

[Jan-Poo]

Originally Posted by FredFriendly

I know I have a short-term memory problem, but I don't remember, other than Pinion's brother, any mention of the whalesquids actually killing humans.

We only have one certain death but consider the following:

1) Everyone thinks that the whalesquids should not be messed with while not thinking of them as anything different from dangerous animals.

2) Fairlock believed that the whole fleet was at risk and everyone was scared to death when the swarm of whalesquids passed them.

3) There were likely others who knew about the ruins in the mist, and they knew there was powerful technology awaiting there, but even unscrupulous pirates preferred to attack other humans than dealing with whalesquids.

4) We know that whalesquids are very aggressive, and that when feel threatened they attack indiscriminately.


Just how likely it is that they never killed anyone except Pinion's brother?

[Guardian Enzo]

To an A.I. like Chamber this argument of his surely is perfectly sound, but to my ears it's incredibly hollow and semantic. Chamber uses words like "pure" and "civilization" a lot to defend his position - surely no coincidence. In his logic any sacrifice is justifiable to preserve civilization, and his own existence is the proof of the purity of the cause - effectively "Because I exist, the cause must be just."

We have one side that's given up their physical humanity and the trappings of civilization, and another which has kept their physical form on the strength of eugenics, slavery and advanced robotics. Yes, it's a mess - I know - but what I long for here is for Gen to put himself on the line, just this once. Choose a side and stick with it - make someone the good guy, and tell us what he thinks the right answer to try and resolve this terrible mess is.

Ledo, of course, could be the good guy. He's a fine protagonist, and certainly a victim - but Gen has already proved himself adept at creating those. What will Ledo choose to do from here, and will it make any difference? If this really is a different sort of show for Urobuchi Gen, what I want to see is for Ledo to make a stand for what he believes in his soul is right - and for that act to actually have an effect.

[GreyZone]

Originally Posted by FredFriendly

One minute, they pull some blob of unrecognizable junk out of the water. A couple minutes later, it's all shiny and like new, and ready to blow away the competition. Was this barely believable unbelievable miraculous restoration achievement simply a result of the moron Pinion's incredible skills? So, if he [they] were able to resurrect that ancient piece of computerized technology in a matter of minutes, why did Pinion need Chamber's help in discovering what that other piece of junk was? Is this just another case of anime logic?

The material was VERY SUPER MEGA resistant against rusting, and probably also got non-stick coating (although they call it "ancient" the technology is still superior to ours). So all they had to do was to clean it the same way as they would have cleaned, say, a window.

[maplehurry]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

I'm not sure if that counts as co-existence. The whalesquids basically killed any human that dared to cross their borders.

Just like tigers, bears, some species of apes, and Texans.

If they are not, then you'd need to explain why they should be treated any different than you would with termites.

well, for starters, apes are treated differently from bugs.

[GreyZone]

I don't know what you are talking about anymore... what is the point, you all want to make? All I see now are comparisons, but I have no idea what all of you want to convince the others of...

[FredFriendly]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

We only have one certain death but consider the following:

1) Everyone thinks that the whalesquids should not be messed with while not thinking of them as anything different from dangerous animals.

2) Fairlock believed that the whole fleet was at risk and everyone was scared to death when the swarm of whalesquids passed them.

3) There were likely others who knew about the ruins in the mist, and they knew there was powerful technology awaiting there, but even unscrupulous pirates preferred to attack other humans than dealing with whalesquids.

4) We know that whalesquids are very aggressive, and that when feel threatened they attack indiscriminately.


Just how likely it is that they never killed anyone except Pinion's brother?

Probably not very likely, but we have yet to hear otherwise. Nonetheless, re:

1. and 2. you would not shut down your entire fleet and quake in your boots if a swarm of sharks (another very dangerous animal) approached, so, back to my original question, what happened in the past to cause the Gargantians to be so fearful of the whalesuids as to go to the lengths they do? If it was just:

3. and 4. whalesquids attacking other creatures that enter their territory, that would not lead Fairlock (or his predecessors) to the conclusion that they needed to shut down the entire fleet to avoid a fatal confrontation.

It makes me wonder if this is something that was explained in the source material, but just left out of the anime for whatever reason the writers chose to leave it out.

Originally Posted by GreyZone

The material was VERY SUPER MEGA resistant against rusting, and probably also got non-stick coating (although they call it "ancient" the technology is still superior to ours). So all they had to do was to clean it the same way as they would have cleaned, say, a window.

And read the instruction manual to learn how to a) connect a power supply to charge up the hundreds, if not thousands of years old batteries (if you even had the power equivalent available; where I come from there are a gazillion different power supplies just for cell phone, even within the same brand), and, b) turn the bloody thing on, let alone get it to fire. Pinion and crew must be electro-mechanical geniuses.

I can believe that the unidentifiable blob could be cleaned up in a jiffy, being space-age and all that, but getting it to work in minutes (hours? days?) seems extremely far-fetched to me. Not just linguistically speaking, the language most likely having changed dramatically since the blob was made, so they probably couldn't even read the instruction manual, but one would think that they would have had to use Chamber's abilities (which I was led to believe that they did not) to crack whatever password system the thing would have had to prevent use by unauthorized persons. It's not like they just found a howitzer and some ammo that they could just fire at will.

It's my theory that, if they are as technologically advanced as to be able to resurrect and use such an advanced technological gadget, then they should also be able to make technology more advanced than that we've seen them otherwise possess.

[Cloudedmind]

Originally Posted by FredFriendly

And read the instruction manual to learn how to a) connect a power supply to charge up the hundreds, if not thousands of years old batteries (if you even had the power equivalent available; where I come from there are a gazillion different power supplies just for cell phone, even within the same brand), and, b) turn the bloody thing on, let alone get it to fire. Pinion and crew must be electro-mechanical geniuses.

I can believe that the unidentifiable blob could be cleaned up in a jiffy, being space-age and all that, but getting it to work in minutes (hours? days?) seems extremely far-fetched to me. Not just linguistically speaking, the language most likely having changed dramatically since the blob was made, so they probably couldn't even read the instruction manual, but one would think that they would have had to use Chamber's abilities (which I was led to believe that they did not) to crack whatever password system the thing would have had to prevent use by unauthorized persons. It's not like they just found a howitzer and some ammo that they could just fire at will.

It's my theory that, if they are as technologically advanced as to be able to resurrect and use such an advanced technological gadget, then they should also be able to make technology more advanced than that we've seen them otherwise possess.

It's possible that this particular tech was already in operable condition. Meaning the pulled it up and saw that it was still "on" in a manner of speaking. We don't know why kind of energy reserves this thing had, it could have run on some type of "battery" and still had some juice left, and the chick who gets inside just starts pushing buttons until something happens. Not the best way to go about things but yeah.

[FredFriendly]

Originally Posted by Cloudedmind

It's possible that this particular tech was already in operable condition. Meaning the pulled it up and saw that it was still "on" in a manner of speaking. We don't know why kind of energy reserves this thing had, it could have run on some type of "battery" and still had some juice left, and the chick who gets inside just starts pushing buttons until something happens. Not the best way to go about things but yeah.

Loaded, cocked, and ready to fire just by randomly pushing some buttons? Give-me-a-break. That's total nonsense. You really think the Evolvers or the Union Guys would have created such a high-tech weapon that just anyone could sit in and fire willy-nilly???

[Cloudedmind]

Originally Posted by FredFriendly

Loaded, cocked, and ready to fire just by randomly pushing some buttons? Give-me-a-break. That's total nonsense. You really think the Evolvers or the Union Guys would have created such a high-tech weapon that just anyone could sit in and fire willy-nilly???

Considering I'm neither I can't say what they were thinking, I'm just speculating based on what was shown.

It probably just comes down to "anime logic":
Staff 1: We need them to use something big to scare the pirates?!
Staff 2: How about we have them use the tech they just pulled up to show how badass it is!
Staff 1: Brilliant!!!!

Thus we get that scene.

[Gravitas Free Zone]

It would have been just as telling if the gun that they only had the barest idea of how it worked had misfired and vaporized a good portion of their deck with it... the episode is designed to show Pinion and the others with him being baited by the lure of power, but it's hitting them with the stupid stick rather more than it needs to.

[FlareKnight]

Will be interesting to see how long Kugel has been awake. At the very least it seems to have been long enough to start up his own cult. One could say being older and in a position of authority before all this happened it was easy for him to make the switch to showing off his tech and forcing the locals that found him into submitting to him. Certainly would make it easy to go on the Hideauze war when you have an entire army ready to follow you.

As if Ledo wasn't in enough of a crisis he know has to deal with this. No idea how he's going to respond and interact with Kugel. He's very uneasy about continuing his war at this point, but Kugel doesn't seem to be that concerned. Of course he may not have access to the same information as Ledo, but at the same time that might not matter to him now.

Pinion really continues to be a moron. I mean nice enough that your brother was avenged, but now you turn into a power hungry lunatic? Let's just declare war on the entire planet...I bet some of the people that came along are really wishing they'd stayed with Gargantia . If Pinion doesn't see the danger of bringing together a ton of people you defeated with pure force....he's going to have a rude awakening when the eventual mutiny occurs. I get that it's about being corrupted by power, but it's just making him look dumber than usual.

The only thing that really bothered me was the reaction scene on Gargantia. It's like everyone on that ship was reacting after getting the same revelation that Ledo got in the previous episode. There shouldn't have been any shock here that he wiped out some Hideauze, that was kind of the point of going. Although to be fair it kind of still fits since it wasn't like they considered his point of view before he left in the first place.

[Traece]

Originally Posted by FredFriendly

Loaded, cocked, and ready to fire just by randomly pushing some buttons? Give-me-a-break. That's total nonsense. You really think the Evolvers or the Union Guys would have created such a high-tech weapon that just anyone could sit in and fire willy-nilly???

Fun fact: The military doesn't make weapons that are hard to fire. That makes them hard to fire. If they need to fire them, they want to be able to do so quickly.

Just as well, in hundreds of years time there will likely be very little change in the actual firing of even the most advanced weapons in terms of the person pulling the trigger. The mechanics of it can be as advanced as they need to be, but when it comes to firing the bullet it has to be as simple as it can be.

That having been said, they manually pointed it at the target to begin with, so all they really had to do was find the big red button, so to speak.

[Unknown Soldier]

Wow, what the hell just happened at the end? I think we're about to jump the shark here.

I guess the last episode will end with Ledo killing Kugel and blowing up his Machine Caliber in a huge battle where everyone on the ships gets killed. Amy will probably get killed when Kugel vaporizes her with his death beam. Dat Gen Butch Ending incoming!

[Cloudedmind]

Originally Posted by FlareKnight

Will be interesting to see how long Kugel has been awake. At the very least it seems to have been long enough to start up his own cult. One could say being older and in a position of authority before all this happened it was easy for him to make the switch to showing off his tech and forcing the locals that found him into submitting to him. Certainly would make it easy to go on the Hideauze war when you have an entire army ready to follow you.

As if Ledo wasn't in enough of a crisis he know has to deal with this. No idea how he's going to respond and interact with Kugel. He's very uneasy about continuing his war at this point, but Kugel doesn't seem to be that concerned. Of course he may not have access to the same information as Ledo, but at the same time that might not matter to him now.

Pinion really continues to be a moron. I mean nice enough that your brother was avenged, but now you turn into a power hungry lunatic? Let's just declare war on the entire planet...I bet some of the people that came along are really wishing they'd stayed with Gargantia . If Pinion doesn't see the danger of bringing together a ton of people you defeated with pure force....he's going to have a rude awakening when the eventual mutiny occurs. I get that it's about being corrupted by power, but it's just making him look dumber than usual.

The only thing that really bothered me was the reaction scene on Gargantia. It's like everyone on that ship was reacting after getting the same revelation that Ledo got in the previous episode. There shouldn't have been any shock here that he wiped out some Hideauze, that was kind of the point of going. Although to be fair it kind of still fits since it wasn't like they considered his point of view before he left in the first place.

I don't think they were JUST reacting to the killing of the Hideaze though, but Pinion's over all messaging of he's not sharing and declaring war on anyone who came near/tried to take it by force, which seems to go against the Gargantian and many of the other ships way of doing things (the whole not wanting to willing share/trade thing). Even Flange was shocked at Pinions proposal to not just share/trade what they'd found with the other ships. Basically he was being greedy, and stupid by declaring what they'd found. You're just asking to be attacked by pirates.

[Quarkboy]

What do people think Kugel's reaction will be when Ledo tells him about the true nature of the Hideauze?

[Nvis]

Just found something that can finally destroy Chamber.