Fate/Apocrypha - Episode 24 Discussion / Poll

[XFire]

Originally Posted by Ruki0089

At least at least in my opinion, Shirou(FSN) much better than Sieg...

Eh, I personally like Sieg over his Fate route version. UBW and Heaven's Feel are definitely better for me, though.

[Ruki0089]

I'm talking about Shirou(all route) though... Eh, but Miyu's verse Shirou also great...

[XFire]

Originally Posted by Ruki0089

I'm talking about Shirou(all route) though... Eh, but Miyu's verse Shirou also great...

Miyuverse Shirou is better than any of the others to be totally honest

[Ruki0089]

Yup... That Shirou is freaking great...

[GDB]

Originally Posted by XFire

The lengths people go to fit Sieg into their sound byte criticisms is almost disturbing sometimes. The guy has problems, like most of his character development taking place internally (which means the anime misses a lot of it) but cardboard and Gary Stu aren't ones that fit.

Most of his character development is skipped, but he isn't cardboard. He's just given superpowers because why the hell not, and because he got so many he can combine them to better use than the original owners, but he isn't a Gary Stu. Okay, sure.

Originally Posted by Xero8420

Racist or not, it's just the salty lots who think they're entitled to their own opinions & the others' opinions don't matter out with inconsideration due to their crooked perception on things they like & don't like.

As opposed to you, who fights so hard to defend Sieg that you think those whose opinions differ on him don't matter due to your own perception on things you like and don't like.

Ultimately, they're probably being upset & salty of the truth that Mordred & Kairi are the decoy protagonists, to think they should have been the authentic protagonists from the beginning to the end. This is the piece of their collective "opinions" think they're entitled to lift their fingers against Sieg.

Lot of buzzwords there to basically say "I'm right, you're wrong, think like I think or I'm going to act like your opinion makes you an inferior being". I mean, you're basically calling people entitled for having opinions different from your own.

[MgMaster]

Originally Posted by XFire

The guy has a body that's literally falling apart at the seams and drags himself out of a cage he was never even supposed to be aware of. He forces himself to learn how to walk on feet that spurt blood from the act of supporting his own weight to give him a chance to survive.

Siegfried sacrificed himself because that was his character and his stated wish, to be able to save someone for the sake of simply saving them. Astolfo is fucking Astolfo, he does what he wants, and what he wants is to save the person that asked for help, because he's a goddamn paladin. Every description of Frankenstein's NP punches you in the face with it's "lightning of life and death" schtick and the chance of some form of revival.

Astolfo and Jeanne both go out of their way to keep him away from the battlefield because they don't think he should get wrapped up in it, but he chooses to do so of his own will because of what he had to go through to leave and his desire to save the other Homonculi.

Sieg at no point tries to claim that he can fight through his own strength and attributes it all to Siegfried's strength, and no one ever acts like its anything but Siegfried being channeled through him that makes it strong.

He could play out his part as side character and it could end with him either remaining at Yggdmillennia or be weakened enough after the fight with Karna that he couldn't participate in the conflict any further(you know, the thing that happens with like the rest of the servants). If that's STILL not enough, have him support Jeanne & not completely take over, just like how Semiramis arrived while barely standing after her fight with Mordred and supported Shirou in whatever way she still could.

And all of that is just one example(I'm sure a good author could think of many other & much better ways) of how Sieg could play out his part in the story without having it bend for him, which is s how the anime makes it look like.

At any rate,for the love of god, please just consider the mere notion that when a certain part of an anime get's called out for being bad by a good number of people which are made out of the average,casual and hardcore anime viewer(and at least some of the diehard Fate fans as well) then it's a glaring issue with the anime. We're not all casuals who are barely watching our 1st few anime series and don't have enough perspective in order to be "entitled" to have call out & criticize a glaring issue. And if having the knowledge of the entire or most of the Nasuverse is what's required for us to ,god forbid, be "entitled" to have an opinion then the anime's doing something very wrong.

Perhaps if Fate/Zero never existed we'd all get used to this, at least when it comes to Fate series, and have all our expectations in check whenever another anime comes out. It'd be known as that franchise where the protagonists of it's stories are these cardboards clanned in plot armor,ready to pull out something out of their ass whenever there's trouble and receive things on a silver platter and I don't know about you, but I personally wouldn't want that to be the go-to opinion of a franchise I'm fond of. But it's there, and it's a well known fact that it's appreciated way more by the majority, which remember, ain't just made out of the casual anime pleb. I don't need to point out why since every knows that very well.

I talked way more about Sieg than I wanted to here, so I'll stop now. I still enjoy Apocrypha and am grateful for the fact that Sieg at least doesn't get as much screentime as Shirou did from FSN.

[Ruki0089]

Shirou is MC of FSN though... Of course he will get more screentime than Sieg, a forced mc... If Jeanne is the only MC, I'm completely understand that...

[XFire]

Originally Posted by MgMaster

He could play out his part as side character and it could end with him either remaining at Yggdmillennia or be weakened enough after the fight with Karna that he couldn't participate in the conflict any further(you know, the thing that happens with like the rest of the servants). If that's STILL not enough, have him support Jeanne & not completely take over, just like how Semiramis arrived while barely standing after her fight with Mordred and supported Shirou in whatever way she still could.

Semiramis had her spirit core shattered to pieces after losing a fight, something that is physically impossible under the Fate rulebook. Sieg used up his command seals. But yeah those are totally comparable.

Originally Posted by MgMaster

At any rate,for the love of god, please just consider the mere notion that when a certain part of an anime get's called out for being bad by a good number of people which are made out of the average,casual and hardcore anime viewer(and at least some of the diehard Fate fans as well) then it's a glaring issue with the anime. We're not all casuals who are barely watching our 1st few anime series and don't have enough perspective in order to be "entitled" to have call out & criticize a glaring issue. And if having the knowledge of the entire or most of the Nasuverse is what's required for us to ,god forbid, be "entitled" to have an opinion then the anime's doing something very wrong.

You can criticize it all you want.

And I'm going to criticize that criticism because I disagree with it.

This is not a difficult concept.

Originally Posted by MgMaster

Perhaps if Fate/Zero never existed we'd all get used to this, at least when it comes to Fate series, and have all our expectations in check whenever another anime comes out. It'd be known as that franchise where the protagonists of it's stories are these cardboards clanned in plot armor,ready to pull out something out of their ass whenever there's trouble and receive things on a silver platter and I don't know about you, but I personally wouldn't want that to be the go-to opinion of a franchise I'm fond of. But it's there, and it's a well known fact that it's appreciated way more by the majority, which remember, ain't just made out of the casual anime pleb. I don't need to point out why since every knows that very well.

I talked way more about Sieg than I wanted to here, so I'll stop now. I still enjoy Apocrypha and am grateful for the fact that Sieg at least doesn't get as much screentime as Shirou did from FSN.

Lol wut?

You're using Zero as an example of a show where the protagonists aren't protected by plot armor?

The show where Saber leaves Kiritsugu alone in a room with an angry Lancer who doesn't shank him? The show where Lancelot survives multiple fights with Gilgamesh? The show where Arturia fights Lancelot for three minutes in the middle of a fucking breakdown and still wins? The one where Kiritsugu takes a go at Kirei, a guy who can keep up with Assassin, and comes out on top? The show where Kiritsugu is standing at ground zero of an Excaliblast without the grail mud shielding him like it did Kirei and walking away unscathed?

That Zero?

Originally Posted by GDB

Most of his character development is skipped, but he isn't cardboard. He's just given superpowers because why the hell not, and because he got so many he can combine them to better use than the original owners, but he isn't a Gary Stu. Okay, sure.

Cardboard doesn't openly reject the good intentions of people he's shown to care about because he can't accept not helping those trapped in the situation he was saved from. It doesn't have a mental breakdown over whether or not people are actually worth caring about.

And all of his powers are weaker versions of the others, what are you talking about? He's a fully manifested Siegfried and still needs Frankenstein backing him up to replicate something the real one did by breathing.

[Dengar]

Am I the only one who thinks Sieg being rather generic makes sense? You know since he was only born a couple weeks ago and had to learn everything about the world and his place in it during such a short time?

Even now, as he is basically running on emotion rather than logic, he hasn't truly found that answer. He just happens to be saved by circumstance as well as people who took pity on him.

Furthermore, while he is somewhat of a "protagonist", he doesn't actually seem to be hogging the spotlight from other people. Looks like more of an ensemble cast to me, Sieg just happens to be at the front.


I also find it interesting that I find people "defending" certain parts of the story against criticisms that weren't even raised in this thread. I don't think I've seen anyone complain about the sudden appearance of Berserker's power. I totally didn't expect it, but it made sense to me.


Anyway, maybe I'm closed minded, but I can't understand anyone who would cheer on Shirou. A plan to basically "send all of humanity to heaven" without even giving anyone a say in it? Doesn't really roll well with me.

[Sheba]

It's just that compared to Sieg there is, imo, a more endearing story in Fiores and Caules.

[Xero8420]

Originally Posted by Dengar

I also find it interesting that I find people "defending" certain parts of the story against criticisms that weren't even raised in this thread. I don't think I've seen anyone complain about the sudden appearance of Berserker's power. I totally didn't expect it, but it made sense to me.

Anyway, maybe I'm closed minded, but I can't understand anyone who would cheer on Shirou. A plan to basically "send all of humanity to heaven" without even giving anyone a say in it? Doesn't really roll well with me.

The anime should have explained how Sieg manifested Fran's power he got from the Blasted Tree in more details from the source material.

As for those suddenly jumped on the Shirou bandwagon, it's probably the same kind of F/Z toxicity - kinda like "edgy emo bitchboy Kerry can go to hell. GO KIREI & GIL-KUN!". It's funny especially when Amakusa Shirou turned out to be an edgy bitchboy who's pessimistic of humanity.

[Dengar]

Originally Posted by Sheba

It's just that compared to Sieg there is, imo, a more endearing story in Fiores and Caules.

Isn't that fine? The story does focus on them at times. Their story still got told. Really the fact that Sieg is "the protagonist" means very little to me. It doesn't make the other characters any less interesting.

[bakato]

Originally Posted by MgMaster

He could play out his part as side character and it could end with him either remaining at Yggdmillennia or be weakened enough after the fight with Karna that he couldn't participate in the conflict any further(you know, the thing that happens with like the rest of the servants). If that's STILL not enough, have him support Jeanne & not completely take over, just like how Semiramis arrived while barely standing after her fight with Mordred and supported Shirou in whatever way she still could.

And all of that is just one example(I'm sure a good author could think of many other & much better ways) of how Sieg could play out his part in the story without having it bend for him, which is s how the anime makes it look like.

That is not plot bending. It's just plot. What sort of classic hero story has the hero having all the cards he needs to defeat the dragon or demon king from square one? Sieg did not know the cutest trap of the year would come to his aid when he decided to bust out of his tank and make a crawl for freedom. He did NOT know that Fran would resurrect him and give him Servant powers when he decided to make what he DID KNOW to be a suicidal attempt at rescuing his fellow homunculi. Siegfried, Frankenstein, Jeanne. Every one of these characters were acting in line with their ideals when they helped Sieg. No one was twisting or bending anything. It's like Jeanne said. Sieg is someone who lives in the present and when he was too weak to bring about his future, these Servants lent him their power.

Originally Posted by Dengar

Am I the only one who thinks Sieg being rather generic makes sense? You know since he was only born a couple weeks ago and had to learn everything about the world and his place in it during such a short time?

Even now, as he is basically running on emotion rather than logic, he hasn't truly found that answer. He just happens to be saved by circumstance as well as people who took pity on him.

Furthermore, while he is somewhat of a "protagonist", he doesn't actually seem to be hogging the spotlight from other people. Looks like more of an ensemble cast to me, Sieg just happens to be at the front.

Anyway, maybe I'm closed minded, but I can't understand anyone who would cheer on Shirou. A plan to basically "send all of humanity to heaven" without even giving anyone a say in it? Doesn't really roll well with me.

That is a common opinion, but rather than generic I'd call him a certified, legal blank. Generic has a stigma attached to it and implies some sort of wish fulfillment crap. Sieg has legitimate reasons for his "blankness." That said I believe a better execution could have made him more compelling as a character as well as endear the majority of critics to him.

Siegfried, Astolfo, and Jeanne did not help him out of pity. That would be insulting them. Siegfried did it out and in pursuit of his ideal of justice. Astolfo because she's his waifu. Jeanne out of compassion.

I don't agree with Shirou, but you know saviors generally don't ask if people wanted to be saved.

Originally Posted by Xero8420

The anime should have explained how Sieg manifested Fran's power he got from the Blasted Tree in more details from the source material.

The source material wasn't great on that either. It was just a paragraph or two describing how there was a note in Frankenstein's blueprints about how there was a small chance of her lightning carrying her will and the possibility of being reborn. None of the characters even knew. This sort of lazy, minute, and completely insignificant exposition is disturbing to see in a Nasu work. I've said this before but Higashide is a shit writer. Off the top of my head, we could have heard Caules deducing how lightning is a life to Frankenstein and how a portion of her might have taken in refuge in Sieg, explaining his abilities.

[HandofFate]

I like Seig, but I'm a sucker for Fateverse MCs.

Liked this episode. The Frankenstein thing is a bit random even if its cool. I do love how a good number of the servants admire Sieg in some way

[Xero8420]

Originally Posted by HandofFate

I like Seig, but I'm a sucker for Fateverse MCs.

Liked this episode. The Frankenstein thing is a bit random even if its cool. I do love how a good number of the servants admire Sieg in some way

Particularly Jeanne & Astolfo who being his best girlfriends. Mordred seem to developed some respect to him in spite of rivalry. Let's not forget Karna who seen him as a genuine Siegfried's incarnation. But we will never know about Fran's.

[Dengar]

Well the only thing that was really there was a bit of a similarity. They were both things who wanted to be people.

[shadow1296]

Originally Posted by Dengar

Well the only thing that was really there was a bit of a similarity. They were both things who wanted to be people.

isn't that a major wish of the actual Frankenstein, to be treated as human but the world and its creator treated like a monster so it became a monster, or at least that has been the case in most modern interpretations of it, i think

[Dengar]

That's why I said she was similar to Sieg in that regard.

[HandofFate]

what does "materializing the soul" actually mean?

[XFire]

Originally Posted by HandofFate

what does "materializing the soul" actually mean?

People would love as spirits, basically. They'd be non-physical beings.