Magic and Technology of MGLN

[Skane]

Wasn't it already stated by the creators that Nanoha and friends would not be able to survive a nuclear bomb?

Cheers.

[Kha]

Originally Posted by Skane

Wasn't it already stated by the creators that Nanoha and friends would not be able to survive a nuclear bomb?

Cheers.

Yes, but we're thinking that was when they were lolis. Now can Nanoha in Exceed mode tank one?

[Nightengale]

Originally Posted by Kha

Yes, but we're thinking that was when they were lolis. Now can Nanoha in Exceed mode tank one?

Well, Nanoha had no damage accepting S-rank HB, but it's not like she flicked it off with a finger either...and Heavy Barrel clearly's a far cry from powerful nukes. Even though it was protected with barriers, it didn't really damage the tower badly... In terms of physical damage, I'd think nukes rate higher than SSS.

[An Hero in Disguise]

Originally Posted by Nightengale

Well, Nanoha had no damage accepting S-rank HB, but it's not like she flicked it off with a finger either...and Heavy Barrel clearly's a far cry from powerful nukes. Even though it was protected with barriers, it didn't really damage the tower badly... In terms of physical damage, I'd think nukes rate higher than SSS.

Well there're different kinds of nukes. And generally my point was not whether Nanoha, for example, could survive a nuke, but if it was theoretically possible for a mage at all or there were any completely unavoidable effects of the blast. So far ionizing radiation and heat radiation seem like the most troublesome aspects.

[Jimmy C]

Originally Posted by Nightengale

Even though it was protected with barriers, it didn't really damage the tower badly...

That's because they didn't want to damage the tower at the time. It was a paralysis gas attack.

Spoiler for And that was because:

They had 3 targets to capture alive. They can't use killshots until their targets have been secured.

[stormturmoil]

Originally Posted by stormturmoil
Not wholly true...there's a 'practical' limit of ten megatons to any kind of explosion when used on a planetary body, because once you reach this 'threshold' if you will, the vast majority of the explosive effects are actually blasted right out of the atmosphere, and the demonstrated effects actually become less than a lower rated blast.

This is why ICBM's are now regularly loaded with low megatonnage Multiple independently targeted re-entry Vehicles (MIRV's) rather than single huge 'tzar bomba' style massive megatonnage warheads...aside from the obvious coverage issues

Incidentally, this 'effective threshold' might be just as relevant to magically inflicted explosions as well, meaning that you might get more bang from a smaller better aimed blast than from a huge ball of doom that blasts itself into orbit rather than stay put and do damage... Of course, it would depend on the nature of the spells involved...
Does this work the same way with heat and ionizing radiation as with physical blast wave? (I'm kinda lazy to look for it now) Also atmospheric explosions aren't the only possible method, I believe that underground ones would at least have another value of the threshold. And 10 MT would've probably already been more powerful than what YnS did that time anyway.

umm...it does include the heat, since any conduction/convection(the main causes of heat transfer in this case) won't wok due to atmospheric implosion (as the blast is directed upward, it sucks air along with it, leaving a near vacuum). There will be a small amount (relatively!) of radiated heat, but it will be effectively minimal due to the limits on radiation being the least efficient means of heat transfer.

In the case of radioactivity, the vast majority of Particle radioactivity (including alpha rays, beta rays and free neutrons) will be swept up with the blast and safely carried out of the atmosphere, making the blast relatively clean as far as particles go, however, some Gamma rays may be released over the site.

Significantly, there will be an implosive air event rather than explosive, as the blst will suck air up with it, creating a near vacuum at ground zero, into which air will rush, giving a sort of reversed blast wave, so the threat of anoxia will still be present.

As you say, this only works for surface deployment. A subterranean blast wouldn't have the same effects.

Also for the Keroko/Erio argument: A barrier jacket maintains a full 360 degree barrier and field on the wearer as long as it remains manifested. As a result there is no casting time for said field/barrier, nor does a barrier Jacket have weak vulnerable points. What said barrier and field can stand up to is another matter of course (source is A's to Striker's Manga)

[Keroko]

Still not dead yet!

Originally Posted by Erio

That's simple: because it would help me contradict you.



Seriously, though, first, I agree 100% with lazy animators. They are the cause of our endless argument here.

Then why not simply agree? Makes things a lot easier.

Originally Posted by Erio

Second, the reason why I used eye candy this time is because you said:

This, in my opinion, is extremely misleading. There are a bunch of stuff that you can take in consideration, such as energy compression. Just look at Dragon Ball Z, all beams are of random sizes, but later in the series, the same beam does 100000 more damage than the same one 10 years ago. Makes sense? Not at all.

This is just animation stuff.

DBZ doesn't make sense either. The earth seems to regenerate such damage at an amazing rate, and the population breeds like rabbits.

Originally Posted by Erio

That's not the point!!!!

The whole point is that a Nuclear Explosion is NOT THE SAME as a Magical Explosion, because of all the factors I described, and that the Aces have NEVER BEEN IN SUCH SITUATION.

If you are so anxious as to use realism, then they have been in the explosive decompresion situation. The blast clearly showed the air being pushed away. Eyecandy doesn't apply, because we are using realism here.

Without realism, in an anime, heat, radiation, toxic gasses, explosive decompresion... such things would not even get involved, they wouldn't matter, they wouldn't even apear! The only thing that would matter matter would be the big explosion.

Originally Posted by Erio

And no, the airport stuff DOES NOT COUNT. First, the explosion was not big at all, or the airport would have been completely wiped out... no piece of building standing. And second, the Aces were not there at the time of the explosion. When they got there, only small flames were around the place, and smoke was the only thing they had to take care off, and they did with their 360 shields. In other words, they were PREPARED to be in such situation, so they went into the airport with their 360 shields on.

Why does it not count? I'm not talking about the explosion in the airport, I'm talking about the fact that the barriers clearly had the abillity to filter smoke clogged air. Logically, it also has the abillity to block heat and radiation. Why? Canonical reason: It's a defensive spell, blocking the heat from -for example- a fire attack is a smart thing to do. Shields always block radiation.

Non canonical reason: It magic.

Originally Posted by Erio

First, the 360 barrier was only cast on Arisa and Suzuka. Second, the barrier was cast off the second the explosion stopped. So, no.

Air had returned by that time. And there is no way to prove the Barrier was dropped 'the second' after the explosion passed, as we didn't get to see that.

Originally Posted by Erio

Remember, Zafira stopped fighting to tell Arf "Hey, protect your allies." Yuuno noticed because he wasnt doing anything, and he saw the huge dark lightning hit the time-space barrier from the outside and went "Oh sh--!" And immediately started casting his defensive spell. If you notice, he has to concentrate quite a bit before pulling off his barrier.

Arf still has to gather Fate and Nanoha in one spot, and Yuuno was hardly 'concentrating quite a bit' in fact, he merely pressed his hands together, mutters the spell and that's it.

Originally Posted by Erio

Now, picture the same event, where the Wolkenritter are assholes and dont say anything about the incoming magical nuke, and the barrier was not present, so the Annihilation Lightning instantly hits the battlefield... Not even Arf or Yuuno could get barriers up in a split of a second to survive such thing. Our heroes would have been DEAD. (For more about Annihilation Lightning, check the last of my responses on this post)

Note that Yuuno was not informed in the slightest, and still managed to defend himself quite adequitly.

Originally Posted by Erio

And about the "shockwave needs time too" part, YES, that's why I say, you can get ready for the first blast, but then you would be engulfed in flames, etc etc... look below.

Which would not matter in anime anyway. The shockwave is all that matters.

Originally Posted by Erio

I'll copy paste my last argument again:

"Now, one more thing. The shield that covers you 360 degrees is not as powerful as a Round Shield that covers only one side. So, in order to survive the FIRST blast, you definitely need a Round Shield. But letme ask you, even if you're Yuuno or Arf, can you POSSIBLY set up a 360 degree shield, and/or a field defense in that SPLIT of a second just after the blast, before the fire and everything else engulfs you? In my view, that's impossible."

This still stands. There's NO WAY you can react that fast. If you contradict this, I'll just drop this discussion, as it really wont make any sense to me. Besides, almost all of our characters are trained to attack. You have to be a barrier master to be able to even withstand the first blast of a nuclear explosion.

OK, seriously, if you argue against all I've said here, and still think that such thing is possible, I just dont know what else to say. I have explained things as best as I can this time.

...I just dont know what else to say.

My fault, I should have been a bit more clear on this sbject. Let's start of with the 'split second' you are talking about. We already established that ground zero is a no-go, which means that our heroes have made some distance before the misile hit. That means that they have a gap of time before the misile hit, and another gap of time before the explosion hits them.

In other words: There is no split second.

If its a surprise attack, sure they'll get killed. But then again, you wouldn't need the power of a nuke if you catch them by surprise.

Originally Posted by Erio

Hey, I know that. But seriously, why do you have so much faith in a BJ? The BJ clearly does not cover your entire body, so you're still vulnerable! And against a huge explosion that hits every single part of your body, front and back, top and bottom... Sincerely, I just dont get it. And before you say anything about barriers and field defenses, this part of the discussion involves only the Barrier Jacket... Just think of a situation where you dont know what hit you and could not set up any type of barrier on time.

*sweatdrop* ... not including the fields and barriers? That's like saying "How fast can your car go if we take away the engine and wheels?"

The barrier and field the Barrier Jacket generates are the defenses of the barrier jacket. The jacket -as in the cloth of the jacket- itself is pure cosmetics, and offers no defense whatsoever. The field and barrier are as much part of the Barrier Jacket as engine and wheels to a car, you simply can't expect a car to work without them.

Once again: These Fields and Barriers are automatic defenses generated by the Barrier Jacket itself. They are not cast by the mage. Therefore, they are a lot weaker then defenses cast by the mage, but still offer plenty of protection without the mage having to activate them.

Originally Posted by Erio

OK, lets use "critical condition" a different way then... she was not in such state because her life was not in danger. However, she was still pretty weak. That's the effect of having your mana drained.

Sure, no arguments there, but it does mean that a Linker Core can be drained till the last drop, and simply make you extremely weak untill you recover.

Originally Posted by Erio

I wish it was that easy... however, even inside the time-space barrier, buildings ARE destroyable. The sole fact that the buildings are not destroyed or even scratched after Annihilation Lightning or Starlight Breaker proves that these two spells deal magical damage.

And here is where lazy animation strikes its blow.

However, even for this I can offer an explanation: every time a building inside a barrier was damaged, it was because of a material source (usually a mage ggetting tossed through it) this means that the barriers don't so much as interfere with damage being done to the suroundings, but more the damage of spells to the suroundings.

Originally Posted by Erio

And notice that Annihilation Lightning hit the CITY ITSELF. The Lightning hit the time-space barrier from the outside and broke it, and so the real-time, real-life city itself was hit. And yet not a single building got even scratched.

I disagree, it may have punched a hole in the barrier, but once it was inside it was subject to the barriers restrictions. Otherwise the Wolkies would have killed the entire part of the city it struck.

Originally Posted by An Hero in Disguise

Because there was no physical impact on her? If the strength of a physical blast was enough to knock Teana out she should've been pushed back quite considerably, probably sent flying through the air, she didn't use any kind of shields to negate such effect and BJ alone surely can't do this.

*sigh* why do people keep forgetting that Barrier Jackets generate Fields and Barriers of their own? Besides, Tia did get knocked back. Not that far, but then again it wasn't a full power blast.

Originally Posted by An Hero in Disguise

Also look at Diabolic Emission spell for example - there was no barrier around that city part in StrikerS I believe, yet no physical damage was dealt to the surroundings.

My personal explanation for DE is that it is an energy attack. If you run lightning through a building, you won't see much in terms of damage, right? But run that lightning through a person, and you're lucky he survives. It's comparable to Erio's Magical Damage, but it's still physical.

Originally Posted by An Hero in Disguise

Yeah, energy compression Generally in anime the wider the beam the more powerful it is, while actually it'd be the opposite.

Anime doesn't follow laws of nature. Which is probably a good thing, can you imagine Starlight Breaker as a pin-prick beam?

Originally Posted by Nightengale

Well, Nanoha had no damage accepting S-rank HB, but it's not like she flicked it off with a finger either...and Heavy Barrel clearly's a far cry from powerful nukes. Even though it was protected with barriers, it didn't really damage the tower badly... In terms of physical damage, I'd think nukes rate higher than SSS.

I'm... not sure. We already saw Hayate casting mini-nukes multiple times in a row. Such a bombardement could devastate a city, and that spell was no higher then S rank.

A nuke would be higher then S, sure, but higher then SSS?

Not so sure...

[Nightengale]

Originally Posted by Keroko

I'm... not sure. We already saw Hayate casting mini-nukes multiple times in a row. Such a bombardement could devastate a city, and that spell was no higher then S rank.

A nuke would be higher then S, sure, but higher then SSS?

Not so sure...

A consistent barrage of mini-nukes, yes. In the end, the combined effects may had surpassed SSS in total, but each one clearly wasn't extremely powerful. Each attack seems to have an average of 200~400 meters in damage radius. In comparison, nukes generally is around 10 times that at 20kT. And 20 is nothing by today's standards.

Note that I wasn't referring to the single nuke surpassing the maximum of what a top class bombardment mage can release, but rather a simple comparison of a singular effect vs another singular effect.

I'd think a damage level 10 times more powerful that what Hayate used should more or less qualify for SSS. Unless of course SSS is like the super peak of magical-ish spells, of course and Arc-en-Ciel is one, then I'll back down.

[Chaos2Frozen]

"Divine Shooter" - B ranked damage

"Divine Buster" - A ranked damage

"Starlight Breaker" - AAA ranked damage

"Starlight Breaker +/EX" - S ranked damage

These were taken from the post A's manga, so I don't know about you guys, but I'm pretty sure a nuclear explosion is WAY WAY WAY bigger than the Starlight Breaker, or any of the other Breakers.

[Keroko]

According to Wikipedia, a 20 Megaton Nuke (which, I believe, is the biggest load any country has at the moment) has a destructive radius of about 70 Km.

Arc-en-Ciel has a radius of, and I am quoting Yuuno on this, "Hundreds of kilometers"

This means that the Arc en Ciel is more powerfull then the strongest nuke we can use for comparison. Now all we need is a reliable source for Arc-en-Ciel's rank, and we'll know just how high we can rank a nuke.

[Erio]

Before I respond, Keroko, I just want to ask you, what the hell do you think a nuke is? Do you know of its power?

Second, why are you trying to argue that "in anime such thing wont happen"? This is why this discussion fits better in the OC thread, because over there we ARE trying to include such things. In the anime we probably will never see such situation. So at least allow me to ask that you not to use such response again, please.

Originally Posted by Keroko

Still not dead yet!

Then why not simply agree? Makes things a lot easier.

I did say I agree, however what you said is just misleading. Notice I'm just repeating why I said the post before.

DBZ doesn't make sense either. The earth seems to regenerate such damage at an amazing rate, and the population breeds like rabbits.

Did I say DBZ make any sense? As far as I know, I said it DIDNT. You're missing the point, again.

If you are so anxious as to use realism, then they have been in the explosive decompresion situation. The blast clearly showed the air being pushed away. Eyecandy doesn't apply, because we are using realism here.

Without realism, in an anime, heat, radiation, toxic gasses, explosive decompresion... such things would not even get involved, they wouldn't matter, they wouldn't even apear! The only thing that would matter matter would be the big explosion.

I'm not "anxious" to use realism. I just dont know what you're thinking anymore. The whole point of this argument is to compare Physical damage and Magical damage. I'm just describing how DIFFERENT a nuclear explosion is from a magical explosion.

But anyway, apparently you say that IF in the anime there is such a non-magical explosion, it will be the same as a Reinforce I's Starlight Breaker explosion... I'll just shut up now. Apparently what I've been trying to say doesnt make any sense.

Why does it not count? I'm not talking about the explosion in the airport, I'm talking about the fact that the barriers clearly had the abillity to filter smoke clogged air. Logically, it also has the abillity to block heat and radiation. Why? Canonical reason: It's a defensive spell, blocking the heat from -for example- a fire attack is a smart thing to do. Shields always block radiation.

Non canonical reason: It magic.

You just dont get it, do you? That was NOT. THE. POINT.

Air had returned by that time. And there is no way to prove the Barrier was dropped 'the second' after the explosion passed, as we didn't get to see that.

Did you... read what I said? What about NANOHA and FATE?

Arf still has to gather Fate and Nanoha in one spot, and Yuuno was hardly 'concentrating quite a bit' in fact, he merely pressed his hands together, mutters the spell and that's it.

Note that Yuuno was not informed in the slightest, and still managed to defend himself quite adequitly.

Again, DID YOU EVEN READ WHAT I SAID?!

Man, seriously, in the last post I did my very best to explain in DETAIL the situation... but since you just dont seem to understand what I'm saying... I just wont say any more...

Which would not matter in anime anyway. The shockwave is all that matters.

So nuclear explosion = magical explosion. Point taken.

My fault, I should have been a bit more clear on this sbject. Let's start of with the 'split second' you are talking about. We already established that ground zero is a no-go, which means that our heroes have made some distance before the misile hit. That means that they have a gap of time before the misile hit, and another gap of time before the explosion hits them.

In other words: There is no split second.

If its a surprise attack, sure they'll get killed. But then again, you wouldn't need the power of a nuke if you catch them by surprise.

And AGAIN you miss the point. The split second you speak of is not the same as mine. Read again, if you want.

*sweatdrop* ... not including the fields and barriers? That's like saying "How fast can your car go if we take away the engine and wheels?"

The barrier and field the Barrier Jacket generates are the defenses of the barrier jacket. The jacket -as in the cloth of the jacket- itself is pure cosmetics, and offers no defense whatsoever. The field and barrier are as much part of the Barrier Jacket as engine and wheels to a car, you simply can't expect a car to work without them.

Once again: These Fields and Barriers are automatic defenses generated by the Barrier Jacket itself. They are not cast by the mage. Therefore, they are a lot weaker then defenses cast by the mage, but still offer plenty of protection without the mage having to activate them.

These Fields and Barriers you speak of are not covering the entire mage, but the BJ itself. The ones that go 360 degree are automatically casted by the intelligent device.

But fine! Have it your way. I sincerely dont care about this point, as its the least important one. Apparently this barrier jacket is way more awesome than I thought.

Sure, no arguments there, but it does mean that a Linker Core can be drained till the last drop, and simply make you extremely weak untill you recover.

I just know, again, that the Wolkenritter did not plan to do such a thing.

And here is where lazy animation strikes its blow.

However, even for this I can offer an explanation: every time a building inside a barrier was damaged, it was because of a material source (usually a mage ggetting tossed through it) this means that the barriers don't so much as interfere with damage being done to the suroundings, but more the damage of spells to the suroundings.

... CORRECT!!!!!!!!

And tell me now. Why the freaking hell am I discussing that a Dragon Slave or a Nuke deal "PHYSICAL DAMAGE"?! The damage would be of this "Material Source" you speak of.

You yourself answered this whole thing. I just dont understand why do you keep disagreeing with me aside from your stubbornness.

I disagree, it may have punched a hole in the barrier, but once it was inside it was subject to the barriers restrictions. Otherwise the Wolkies would have killed the entire part of the city it struck.

Fine, that may be true. Still, the damage was magical. This is proved by Amy.

[An Hero in Disguise]

Originally Posted by Keroko

*sigh* why do people keep forgetting that Barrier Jackets generate Fields and Barriers of their own? Besides, Tia did get knocked back. Not that far, but then again it wasn't a full power blast.

There wasn't any visible field or barrier around Teana then. First blast didn't make her move an inch. Second knocked her out and made her fall. From the looks of it she was falling straight down, so almost no knocking back took place. I find it hard to belive that a hit can be hard enough to cause a knock-out and at the same time close to no pushing back. If the barrier absorbed the hit to the level it only slightly knocked Teana back it should've protected her from being knocked out altogether.

My personal explanation for DE is that it is an energy attack. If you run lightning through a building, you won't see much in terms of damage, right? But run that lightning through a person, and you're lucky he survives. It's comparable to Erio's Magical Damage, but it's still physical.

Energy isn't something immaterial. Lightning is a flow of charged particles. The way DE behaved, well, the emission of high-energy particles doesn't work like that. Nothing was affected at all except the two Numbers, DE's surface didn't even twitch the slightest contacting buildings, while there was some sort of splash when the Numbers emerged from it. If it had physical properties I don't know what kinds of particles make it up. It's always possible to say that it involved some kind of fictional particles of course, and that would be the same as admitting the existence of magical damage by the way.

A nuke would be higher then S, sure, but higher then SSS?

Not so sure...

Well, the Sun is one continuously working thermonuclear reactor based on the principle of gravitational confinement. Should be higher than SSS It's just the amount of fuel that matters. (don't take it seriously )

[Keroko]

To Erio: I think we have stumbled upon the crux of the matter. Several discussions have become intwined into one another. It started with if a Dragon Slave was H4XX, then it turned to whether the Aces could block a nuke, then Magic Damage came into play and now neither of us knows left from right. One one side we are still discussing ways to defend against a nuke -or rather the aditional effects that makes a nuke so nasty, which is what I have been doing- and on the other you try to explain to me the differences between both.

Since I look left, and you look right, we are both talking about things the other does not hear, or misunderstands.

So, since it's pointless to carry on the way we are now, to summarize the discussions into different small parts:

1: Dragon Slave and Starlight Breaker, the same?

2: Can the Aces block a nuke?

3: Magic Damage, real or bolloks?

4: Just how round is a Barrier Jacket's protection?

Or we can leave the discussion as it is, decide this is all not worth the trouble, and go back the OC thread.

Originally Posted by An Hero in Disguise

There wasn't any visible field or barrier around Teana then. First blast didn't make her move an inch. Second knocked her out and made her fall. From the looks of it she was falling straight down, so almost no knocking back took place. I find it hard to belive that a hit can be hard enough to cause a knock-out and at the same time close to no pushing back. If the barrier absorbed the hit to the level it only slightly knocked Teana back it should've protected her from being knocked out altogether.

.... M'kay, quoting time:

Spoiler for undeniable proof:

Now as you can see, every single moment a mage is wearing a Barrier Jacket, he/she is protected by a low Field and Barrier spell generated by the Barrier Jacket itself. Obviously, these defenses are not visible.

Now, to point two: Tiana was already half unconcious by the time the attack hit. The hit merely send her tumbling back and gave that final push towards unconciousness (though the fall might have helped, too).

Originally Posted by An Hero in Disguise

Energy isn't something immaterial. Lightning is a flow of charged particles. The way DE behaved, well, the emission of high-energy particles doesn't work like that. Nothing was affected at all except the two Numbers, DE's surface didn't even twitch the slightest contacting buildings, while there was some sort of splash when the Numbers emerged from it. If it had physical properties I don't know what kinds of particles make it up. It's always possible to say that it involved some kind of fictional particles of course, and that would be the same as admitting the existence of magical damage by the way.

You know... before I really continue on this subject, I really want to know what this Magical Damage of yours is. Mine is very simple:

For me, any offensive spell is labeled as dealing Magical Damage. It hurts, it tears, it burns, but since it was a spell, it is Magical Damage.

For you, Magical Damage is damage that... I still don't really understand. Doesn't damage buildings, can or cannot kill people while not leaving a scratch and... Argh!

Could you give me a small summary on your version of Magical Damage? Pretty please?

Originally Posted by An Hero in Disguise

Well, the Sun is one continuously working thermonuclear reactor based on the principle of gravitational confinement. Should be higher than SSS It's just the amount of fuel that matters. (don't take it seriously )

That's... the first time someone made fun of my tendency to argue.

[stormturmoil]

My personal explanation for DE is that it is an energy attack. If you run lightning through a building, you won't see much in terms of damage, right? But run that lightning through a person, and you're lucky he survives. It's comparable to Erio's Magical Damage, but it's still physical.

Energy isn't something immaterial. Lightning is a flow of charged particles. The way DE behaved, well, the emission of high-energy particles doesn't work like that. Nothing was affected at all except the two Numbers, DE's surface didn't even twitch the slightest contacting buildings, while there was some sort of splash when the Numbers emerged from it. If it had physical properties I don't know what kinds of particles make it up. It's always possible to say that it involved some kind of fictional particles of course, and that would be the same as admitting the existence of magical damage by the way.

well, both times that Diabolic emission has been seen used, it has been described as being a 'Spatial Attack'

if we then imply that it is, then, an attack that affects space on a fundamental level (eg, fabric of reality stuff here) then my theory is that DE is neither particle or wave based, but instead operates by slightly altering the properties of spacetime itself, by changing the curvature of spacetime itself. In the case of inanimate objects, they undergo a slight alteration in size/shape and then flex back to normal. If you kept repeating the process, you'd get material fatigue and cracking, but as a one off effect, you don't see much in the way of damage...

but in the case of living beings, you have every nerve in the body being stretched/compressed simultaneously...and all of them firing simultaneously as a result. This kind of nervous overload is almost guaranteed to result in unconsciousness, even though no 'real' damage is done, since once the effect passes, spacetime returns to it's default setting...

that's my initial theory, anyway.

[Erio]

Originally Posted by Keroko

To Erio: I think we have stumbled upon the crux of the matter. Several discussions have become intwined into one another. It started with if a Dragon Slave was H4XX, then it turned to whether the Aces could block a nuke, then Magic Damage came into play and now neither of us knows left from right. One one side we are still discussing ways to defend against a nuke -or rather the aditional effects that makes a nuke so nasty, which is what I have been doing- and on the other you try to explain to me the differences between both.

Since I look left, and you look right, we are both talking about things the other does not hear, or misunderstands.

So, since it's pointless to carry on the way we are now, to summarize the discussions into different small parts:

1: Dragon Slave and Starlight Breaker, the same?

2: Can the Aces block a nuke?

3: Magic Damage, real or bolloks?

4: Just how round is a Barrier Jacket's protection?

Or we can leave the discussion as it is, decide this is all not worth the trouble, and go back the OC thread.

...

I can't believe I just said that.

I just dont understand what you are trying to prove here, Keroko.

As to what I am trying to prove, here:

a. Nuclear explosions (physical damage and elemental damage) are not the same as Magical explosions (magical damage).

b. Even if you can withstand the first blast of a Nuclear explosion, its sideeffects will eat you alive. I even explained a detailed situation when this happens in the post before the last one. Apparently, though, you completely missed it.

c. An explosion of this caliber should be UNSTOPPABLE by a human being, be him a mage or a genetically enhanced Relic weapon, or even an artificial being. As I said above, I dont know what you're trying to prove. And if you plan to have a character able to withstand such power, I'll just quietly back away from it.

I seriously thought I explained myself very, very well in the post before the last one. I just dont understand why you took every point I was making and seeing some other way, so I'm going to copy and paste that same post again, this time with headers. It'll be inside a spoiler, so if you dont want to read it, its alright with me.

Spoiler for Read if you want:

Originally Posted by Keroko

I have that effect at times.

Usually means they're about to crumble.

Dont worry, I'm still standing.

Oh now it's eyecandy! Why is it that whenever I use 'lazy animators' as an excuse you try to logic it, but whenever I bring up the size of attacks and details surounding it, it becomes 'eye candy?'

That's simple: because it would help me contradict you.



Seriously, though, first, I agree 100% with lazy animators. They are the cause of our endless argument here.

Argument #1: Dont look at the size of a beam; it can be very misleading

Second, the reason why I used eye candy this time is because you said:

But judging by the beams width, it would have been just as strong.

This, in my opinion, is extremely misleading. There are a bunch of stuff that you can take in consideration, such as energy compression. Just look at Dragon Ball Z, all beams are of random sizes, but later in the series, the same beam does 100000 more damage than the same one 10 years ago. Makes sense? Not at all.

This is just animation stuff.

Argument #1 OVER

*shrug* can't really argue with that, even with my version of Magical Damage.

WOOHOO! One less point to argue.

That can all be dealt with. Refer to the airport scene where Fate's barrier protects the victims from the smoke, and gives them a fresh air suply. This means a barrier can provide and keep a stable airsuply. Keeping the heat out is only logical, as it is a defensive spell. Barriers and shields often keep out radiation, so this is a no-brainer.

Argument #2: Magical Explosion is not the same as Nuclear Explosion (Physical damage)

That's not the point!!!!

The whole point is that a Nuclear Explosion is NOT THE SAME as a Magical Explosion, because of all the factors I described, and that the Aces have NEVER BEEN IN SUCH SITUATION.

Argument #2 OVER

Argument #3: The Aces arrived at the airport AFTER the explosion, and thus they were prepared to deal with smoke.

And no, the airport stuff DOES NOT COUNT. First, the explosion was not big at all, or the airport would have been completely wiped out... no piece of building standing. And second, the Aces were not there at the time of the explosion. When they got there, only small flames were around the place, and smoke was the only thing they had to take care off, and they did with their 360 shields. In other words, they were PREPARED to be in such situation, so they went into the airport with their 360 shields on.

Argument #3 OVER

Or it could mean that the barrier kept them all nice and safe from the vacuüm that was created.

Argument #4: Nanoha and Fate were not inside the barrier, so what you said should have not applied to them; and thus they would have at least been screaming for air.

First, the 360 barrier was only cast on Arisa and Suzuka. Second, the barrier was cast off the second the explosion stopped. So, no.

Argument #4 OVER

Arf, in episode 5, managed to recognize the danger, gather Fate and Nanoha in one spot and cast not one, not two, but three 360 degree barriers blocking a direct hit from Yami no Sho. Yami no Sho! Not some sad little nuke, but The book of Darkness!

besides, the shockwave needs time too.

Argument #5: Yuuno and Arf had plenty of time to react to the explosion, and Arf even more time than Yuuno thanks to Zafira's warning.

Remember, Zafira stopped fighting to tell Arf "Hey, protect your allies." Yuuno noticed because he wasnt doing anything, and he saw the huge dark lightning hit the time-space barrier from the outside and went "Oh sh--!" And immediately started casting his defensive spell. If you notice, he has to concentrate quite a bit before pulling off his barrier.

Argument #5 OVER

Argument #6: If Arf had not been warned, and Yuuno had not noticed the incoming attack because it first hit the barrier from the outside, our heroes would have DIED.

Now, picture the same event, where the Wolkenritter are assholes and dont say anything about the incoming magical nuke, and the barrier was not present, so the Annihilation Lightning instantly hits the battlefield... Not even Arf or Yuuno could get barriers up in a split of a second to survive such thing. Our heroes would have been DEAD. (For more about Annihilation Lightning, check the last of my responses on this post)

Argument #6 OVER

Argument #7: REACTION TIME. But not against the first blast. I never said they could not withstand the first blast, however, their time of response cannot be as fast as described, or they would not be human.

And about the "shockwave needs time too" part, YES, that's why I say, you can get ready for the first blast, but then you would be engulfed in flames, etc etc... look below.

I'll copy paste my last argument again:

"Now, one more thing. The shield that covers you 360 degrees is not as powerful as a Round Shield that covers only one side. So, in order to survive the FIRST blast, you definitely need a Round Shield. But letme ask you, even if you're Yuuno or Arf, can you POSSIBLY set up a 360 degree shield, and/or a field defense in that SPLIT of a second just after the blast, before the fire and everything else engulfs you? In my view, that's impossible."

Note: The "split of a second" is just after the first blast had been canceled by a round shield, which covers just one side of the attack, and just before fire, smoke and everything gets to you. Hm, I'm repeating what I just said above.

This still stands. There's NO WAY you can react that fast. If you contradict this, I'll just drop this discussion, as it really wont make any sense to me. Besides, almost all of our characters are trained to attack. You have to be a barrier master to be able to even withstand the first blast of a nuclear explosion.

Argument #7 OVER

OK, seriously, if you argue against all I've said here, and still think that such thing is possible, I just dont know what else to say. I have explained things as best as I can this time.

...I just dont know what else to say.

Once again, you have to remember that a Barrier Jacket involves more then just a fancy piece of clothing. Multiple spells are involved.

Argument #8: I dont believe BJs give you 360 degree protection. There have been several times in the anime where the characters have bruises where their BJs are not covering them.

Hey, I know that. But seriously, why do you have so much faith in a BJ? The BJ clearly does not cover your entire body, so you're still vulnerable! And against a huge explosion that hits every single part of your body, front and back, top and bottom... Sincerely, I just dont get it. And before you say anything about barriers and field defenses, this part of the discussion involves only the Barrier Jacket... Just think of a situation where you dont know what hit you and could not set up any type of barrier on time.

Argument #8 OVER

In my view the Linker Core is the mana pool, and when you drain it -even completely- it will just refill itself over time. Just like your energy does.

And once more, Fate was not in critical condition. That's the entire bloody point!

OK, lets use "critical condition" a different way then... she was not in such state because her life was not in danger. However, she was still pretty weak. That's the effect of having your mana drained.

Oh, and I just found this quote of yours in the OC section:

See, this is another reason why I don't bother with the Magic Damage stuff, it needlesly confuses everything. It's all very simple, really:

-Magical Damage and Physical Damage are one and the same. Magical Damage merely means that the damage was dealt through a spell.

-The reason people get shot and come out without a scratch is because of the Barrier Jackets.

-The reason giant beams hit a city and everything keeps standing is because of barriers.

See? Very simple, no need to go and make everything difficult.

Argument #9: Proof of "Magical damage" and why it greatly differs from a Nuclear explosion (again, physical damage), which would clearly wipe out the city.

I wish it was that easy... however, even inside the time-space barrier, buildings ARE destroyable. The sole fact that the buildings are not destroyed or even scratched after Annihilation Lightning or Starlight Breaker proves that these two spells deal magical damage. And notice that Annihilation Lightning hit the CITY ITSELF. The Lightning hit the time-space barrier from the outside and broke it, and so the real-time, real-life city itself was hit. And yet not a single building got even scratched.

Argument #9 OVER

Now, to answer your stuff above:

1. I've said this over 20 times already, and I'll say it again. NO. Apparently you're just comparing their power rank or something. That doesnt matter! They are different types of attacks, and a Dragon Slave is way more lethal, for reasons I've mentioned over and over again.

2. NOONE should be able to stop a freaking nuke. I just dont know what you've been trying to prove.

3. Not real, that's why its called "magical". And why isnt it real? Because it does not do physical damage.

4. I sincerely dont really care about this. To you, these Barrier Jackets are just so awesome I can barely begin to comprehend them.

Want my opinion? Bullet Proof Jackets. Except in this case, Magic Proof Jackets. Notice how the "proof" is very misleading, as these jackets dont give you 100% protection. So, no, they dont protect your face.

[tshouryuu]

You guys should define what exactly you want to discuss first instead of arguing over each other's points.

[Keroko]

Originally Posted by tshouryuu

You guys should define what exactly you want to discuss first instead of arguing over each other's points.

We're working on it.

Originally Posted by Erio

I just dont understand what you are trying to prove here, Keroko.

Not sure what you mean by 'prove' but here are the points I am trying to get clear on.

1: Wether the Aces can or cannot block a nuke doesn't matter to me. I already said that a ground zero nuke is impossible to block, whenever I mentioned the nukes I was talking about them getting a headstart, to the outer edge of the blast radius. What I do want to prove is that the entire heat, lack of air and radiation thing doesn't matter to a mage. The force of those elements does and that depends on their distance from ground zero. As the distance grows, heat will cool down, radiation will lessen etc. etc. My arguments were build on the idea that mages are not stupid enough to knock a nuke head-on, but will look for a more favorable ground.

2: As I have said before, you and I have two different views on Magical Damage. I have posted about this in the very post you quoted, though granted it was aimed at An Hero. I'll bring it back up:

Spoiler for what I said was:

You know... before I really continue on this subject, I really want to know what this Magical Damage of yours is. Mine is very simple:

For me, any offensive spell is labeled as dealing Magical Damage. It hurts, it tears, it burns, but since it was a spell, it is Magical Damage.

For you, Magical Damage is damage that... I still don't really understand. Doesn't damage buildings, can or cannot kill people while not leaving a scratch and... Argh!

Could you give me a small summary on your version of Magical Damage? Pretty please?

This is my main concern, as the term keeps confusing me over and over. I want to discuss this and get clarity on it.

3: The Barrier Jacket. Though it doesn't matter to you, it stood out me because out of all the things we've discussed in this mad rush of confusion, this is the one thing that was made clear in canon. That's all I was trying to tell you. They're not 'jackets of invincibillity' but they generate their own Fields and Barriers that do protect every inch of the body.

Here is the page I was refering to:

Spoiler for undeniable proof:

[Erio]

The only problem I've been having with you is that apparently everything I say just doesnt make sense to you. Its getting frustrating, I gotta say.

I'll just work on your points for now.

Originally Posted by Keroko

We're working on it.

Not sure what you mean by 'prove' but here are the points I am trying to get clear on.

1: Wether the Aces can or cannot block a nuke doesn't matter to me. I already said that a ground zero nuke is impossible to block, whenever I mentioned the nukes I was talking about them getting a headstart, to the outer edge of the blast radius. What I do want to prove is that the entire heat, lack of air and radiation thing doesn't matter to a mage. The force of those elements does and that depends on their distance from ground zero. As the distance grows, heat will cool down, radiation will lessen etc. etc. My arguments were build on the idea that mages are not stupid enough to knock a nuke head-on, but will look for a more favorable ground.

Letme ask you. Why do you keep disagreeing with what I've been saying then? I've already taken everything you say here into consideration... I just dont get it. I described a situation where... you know, I'll try it one more time because I feel like typing right now.

First I'm going point by point:

• I already know ground zero is a no. I too was describing a situation where they know the explosion's outer edge is coming. I will be repeating it again in a moment.
• I agree also, heat, lack of air, radiation; those things dont matter to a good mage.
• Yes, the force depends on the distance from ground zero.
• Mages are not stupid. But letme ask you, what makes you think in every situation they KNOW a nuclear bomb is going to explode? What if they dont know its coming?

Here's the situation again. PLEASE read. *tries to breathe*

(Note that this is on a regular character, NOT a barrier expert like Yuuno or Arf)

• A 360 degree barrier is not as powerful as a Round Shield.
• The mage sees the outer edge of the explosion coming his way. The best bet to stop such a blast is to cast a Round Shield.
• Are we good so far? OK.
• After the outer edge of the explosion hits the Round Shield, the next step is to protect yourself against fire, smoke, radiation (thermal, ionizing, etc), the lack of breathable air inside such hell, among other things.
• The awesome Barrier Jacket will surely protect you a bit, however there will always be parts of your body still exposed.
• So, you need a 360 degree barrier so you can stop all these side effects.
• Now, here's the tricky part. A human being is not capable of switching from a Round Shield to a 360 barrier instantly. A person's reaction time is just not that good, or the person would be some kind of God.
• In other words, even if you are able to stop the outer edge of the explosion, because you're far away from the hypocenter, the side effects will kill you.

If that doesnt make sense, I dont know what does, really. If you are just thinking about situations where you're SO far away from the explosion that you are able to see it without doing anything, then you're talking about something else. If that was the case, YOU SHOULD HAVE SAID SO, because you're driving me crazy here.

2: As I have said before, you and I have two different views on Magical Damage. I have posted about this in the very post you quoted, though granted it was aimed at An Hero. I'll bring it back up:

Spoiler for what I said was:

You know... before I really continue on this subject, I really want to know what this Magical Damage of yours is. Mine is very simple:

For me, any offensive spell is labeled as dealing Magical Damage. It hurts, it tears, it burns, but since it was a spell, it is Magical Damage.

For you, Magical Damage is damage that... I still don't really understand. Doesn't damage buildings, can or cannot kill people while not leaving a scratch and... Argh!

Could you give me a small summary on your version of Magical Damage? Pretty please?

This is my main concern, as the term keeps confusing me over and over. I want to discuss this and get clarity on it.

My view on Magic Damage is, indeed, different.

Pure magical damage is like damage to the spirit, to the linker core, of a person. The damage does not affect the body directly (that is, no "physical" damage). This has been proven plenty of times in canon. There IS Magical Damage, period. And such magical damage does not deal physical damage to the body or destroy buildings.

Now, there are spells which combine Magical Damage with Physical Damage. A good example are almost all of Fate's attacks, which all look like Lightning. If you have noticed, these spells are not elemental. They are part magical and part elemental. If I had to guess a ratio, I would say 80% magical, 20% elemental. That's why she needs a pure elemental spell (weather manipulation) such as Thunder Fall, to be able to penetrate AMF.

As far as I know, the idea behind the TSAB banning conventional weapons is so there wont be tools for massive destruction available. If that's the case, then their Mid-Childa magic should not have any spells that deal purely Physical Damage, or those spells would go against their own principle. Remember that Mid-Childa magic was created to replace conventional weapons. That there ARE spells capable of dealing purely Physical Damage? I dont doubt that. Surely there are. However, they should be prohibited by law. Remember that our governments, wherever we are in the world, break their own laws, so this is totally possible. However, we have yet to see something like this in the anime.

Now you're going to say, "Hayate's Tac-Nukes"? They surely blew those drones away. However, to tell you the truth, those didnt look like nuclear explosions. There was no fire, no elemental damage. If I had to comment on this spell, it was, again, part magical and part physical. Apparently, the ratio is more equal than those of Fate's spells. 70/30 or maybe 60/40... dunno, a guess.

3: The Barrier Jacket. Though it doesn't matter to you, it stood out me because out of all the things we've discussed in this mad rush of confusion, this is the one thing that was made clear in canon. That's all I was trying to tell you. They're not 'jackets of invincibillity' but they generate their own Fields and Barriers that do protect every inch of the body.

Here is the page I was refering to:

Spoiler for undeniable proof:

I already read the manga, and I know that perfectly.

My argument is very, very simple. The BJ itself has all those properties, but they do NOT cover the unprotected areas, JUST AS a regular Bullet Proof Jacket.

Am I wrong? I have no idea. However, there is proof that the aces have received bruises where the barrier jackets are not protecting them.

[tshouryuu]

Originally Posted by Erio

The only problem I've been having with you is that apparently everything I say just doesnt make sense to you. Its getting frustrating, I gotta say.

I'll just work on your points for now.


Letme ask you. Why do you keep disagreeing with what I've been saying then? I've already taken everything you say here into consideration... I just dont get it. I described a situation where... you know, I'll try it one more time because I feel like typing right now.

First I'm going point by point:

• I already know ground zero is a no. I too was describing a situation where they know the explosion's outer edge is coming. I will be repeating it again in a moment.
• I agree also, heat, lack of air, radiation; those things dont matter to a good mage.
• Yes, the force depends on the distance from ground zero.
• Mages are not stupid. But letme ask you, what makes you think in every situation they KNOW a nuclear bomb is going to explode? What if they dont know its coming?

Here's the situation again. PLEASE read. *tries to breathe*

(Note that this is on a regular character, NOT a barrier expert like Yuuno or Arf)

• A 360 degree barrier is not as powerful as a Round Shield.
• The mage sees the outer edge of the explosion coming his way. The best bet to stop such a blast is to cast a Round Shield.
• Are we good so far? OK.
• After the outer edge of the explosion hits the Round Shield, the next step is to protect yourself against fire, smoke, radiation (thermal, ionizing, etc), the lack of breathable air inside such hell, among other things.
• The awesome Barrier Jacket will surely protect you a bit, however there will always be parts of your body still exposed.
• So, you need a 360 degree barrier so you can stop all these side effects.
• Now, here's the tricky part. A human being is not capable of switching from a Round Shield to a 360 barrier instantly. A person's reaction time is just not that good, or the person would be some kind of God.
• In other words, even if you are able to stop the outer edge of the explosion, because you're far away from the hypocenter, the side effects will kill you.

If that doesnt make sense, I dont know what does, really. If you are just thinking about situations where you're SO far away from the explosion that you are able to see it without doing anything, then you're talking about something else. If that was the case, YOU SHOULD HAVE SAID SO, because you're driving me crazy here.

My view on Magic Damage is, indeed, different.

Pure magical damage is like damage to the spirit, to the linker core, of a person. The damage does not affect the body directly (that is, no "physical" damage). This has been proven plenty of times in canon. There IS Magical Damage, period. And such magical damage does not deal physical damage to the body or destroy buildings.

Now, there are spells which combine Magical Damage with Physical Damage. A good example are almost all of Fate's attacks, which all look like Lightning. If you have noticed, these spells are not elemental. They are part magical and part elemental. If I had to guess a ratio, I would say 80% magical, 20% elemental. That's why she needs a pure elemental spell (weather manipulation) such as Thunder Fall, to be able to penetrate AMF.

As far as I know, the idea behind the TSAB banning conventional weapons is so there wont be tools for massive destruction available. If that's the case, then their Mid-Childa magic should not have any spells that deal purely Physical Damage, or those spells would go against their own principle. Remember that Mid-Childa magic was created to replace conventional weapons. That there ARE spells capable of dealing purely Physical Damage? I dont doubt that. Surely there are. However, they should be prohibited by law. Remember that our governments, wherever we are in the world, break their own laws, so this is totally possible. However, we have yet to see something like this in the anime.

Now you're going to say, "Hayate's Tac-Nukes"? They surely blew those drones away. However, to tell you the truth, those didnt look like nuclear explosions. There was no fire, no elemental damage. If I had to comment on this spell, it was, again, part magical and part physical. Apparently, the ratio is more equal than those of Fate's spells. 70/30 or maybe 60/40... dunno, a guess.

I already read the manga, and I know that perfectly.

My argument is very, very simple. The BJ itself has all those properties, but they do NOT cover the unprotected areas, JUST AS a regular Bullet Proof Jacket.

Am I wrong? I have no idea. However, there is proof that the aces have received bruises where the barrier jackets are not protecting them.

I have to disagree with you. Although the barrier jacket doesn't physically cover the entire body, it still produces a auto field and barrier that surrounds the entire body. Although there is evidence that bruises formed on the unprotected areas, there isn't any to prove that bruises do not form underneath the areas protected physically by the BJ.

I think a nuke will surely kill a mage, whether protected by shields, barriers, fields whatever.

About the issue about magical damage, I have a different opinion from you two. In my opinion, all non elemental attack spells until it hits something is purely magical in nature. When it hits something, part of the attack will be magical and part of it physical. Elemental attacks are already partly physical, partly magical when cast.

[Erio]

Originally Posted by tshouryuu

I have to disagree with you. Although the barrier jacket doesn't physically cover the entire body, it still produces a auto field and barrier that surrounds the entire body. Although there is evidence that bruises formed on the unprotected areas, there isn't any to prove that bruises do not form underneath the areas protected physically by the BJ.

I think a nuke will surely kill a mage, whether protected by shields, barriers, fields whatever.

About the issue about magical damage, I have a different opinion from you two. In my opinion, all non elemental attack spells until it hits something is purely magical in nature. When it hits something, part of the attack will be magical and part of it physical. Elemental attacks are already partly physical, partly magical when cast.

1. Perfectly valid. As I've been saying, I dont really care much about this BJ stuff. I just dont see it as powerful and effective as you guys. Oh well... I'm good with all of that...

2. Exactly. But Keroko always comes to me with something, so I had to describe such a situation.

3. That's partially true... You see, as I described, there are 3 types of damage: elemental damage (physical), part elemental/part magical damage, and magical damage (non-elemental).

Elemental damage is proven by the weather manipulation spells used to destroy AMF-powered drones.

Part elemental/part magical is proved by Fate's spells, which are magical in nature, but also contain some elemental properties. If her spells dealt pure elemental damage, there wouldnt have been a need to use a weather manipulation spell.

And magical damage is proven by a bunch of things, from Annihilation Lightning, to Nanoha's Cross Fire Shoot against Teana.

I dont think I'm wrong here, but if I am, do tell.