Mobile Suit Gundam AGE - Episode 47 Discussion/Poll

[Znozzy]

Originally Posted by Dengar

I was trying to point out that you can't really judge an entire population by the actions of one guy.

Of course not, but thats not the way AGE has portrayed the Vagans at all.

The Vagans shown in Gen 1/2 has been ruthless fanatics, not a single one of them has been shown to care about the people on earth as a whole, at all, they all hated the earthlings.

In Gen 3 we've been shown Deen and ... well, Lu. Waah waah people have it horrible back on Mars, sure. thats horrible and all, but its Ezelcants fault and people who ruled earth soon to be 200 years ago.

Vagans have, and is still portrayed in a bad way, Deen and Lu isnt going to change the entire view people have on the Vagan as a whole.

As you said yourself:

you can't really judge an entire population by the actions of one guy. (Or his red haired younger sister who was dying)

Of course you cant, but you can judge an entire population by what the majority of its population has done sofar, and thats been ruthless killing of civilians and war crimes that tops Zeon outside of colony drops.

[Revolutionist]

For most the series the Vagans just blow shit up because they can, at random. Need to draw out the Gundam? Blow up the suburbs instead of attacking the military base...Need to take over Olivernotes? blow up the city, NOT the military base...

They just do random, stupid shit that makes no sense unless you look at them as generic, evil beings incapable of human emotions or reason.

We shouldn't have to assume that most of them are like Zeheart pre-derailment, or Deen, and not like Ezelcant, Zanald, Decil, Yark Dole, etc.

Compare Cima's backstory to the BS that Yark Dole spills in ep 15 and you see the difference in quality between somethng that's well written, and something that's half-assed.

[overloard]

Originally Posted by Znozzy

Of course you cant, but you can judge an entire population by what the majority of its population has done sofar, and thats been ruthless killing of civilians and war crimes that tops Zeon outside of colony drops.

To be fair, majority of vagans have done no such things. So far only Gerra Zoi' forces and Zeheart with his idiotic attack on Olivernotes can be considered war criminals, a that's only small portion of vagan forces. Other Vagan soldiers are just typical military forces and no better/worse than their federation counterparts.

[Se7en Sabers]

Originally Posted by overloard

To be fair, majority of vagans have done no such things. So far only Gerra Zoi' forces and Zeheart with his idiotic attack on Olivernotes can be considered war criminals, a that's only small portion of vagan forces. Other Vagan soldiers are just typical military forces and no better/worse than their federation counterparts.

But the Federation troopers don't go attacking and butchering civilians Vagan even if they didn't have the occasion to do so

[Dengar]

Just to be sure I don't get ostracised or anything, I will acknowledge that Vegans have committed a few war crimes. I do feel it is unfair to judge all of Vegan by just this. It's not like I was saying all Earthers deserve to die because the government condemned all of them to death either. My point is that the Vegans were in pain, and now the Earthers are feeling similar pain, and are fighting for their lives, and of course shooting down the soldiers who are attacking you isn't exactly criminal, or even 'wrong'. However, to say they, (and by "they", i mean "all Vegans") are EVIL, is blowing things out of proportion. They have a reason for fighting: Some of them want revenge, others want to make sure they (or at least their families) survive. If you're saying it's ok to wipe out all of the Vegans for "what they did", you cannot say that the reverse isn't true.

In the end, everyone is a human being, who fight for what they believe in. And Kio really is no different. He fights to make all humans survive. Kind of like Ezelcant, but in a less messed up way.

[Revolutionist]

Originally Posted by Znozzy

Of course not, but thats not the way AGE has portrayed the Vagans at all.

The Vagans shown in Gen 1/2 has been ruthless fanatics, not a single one of them has been shown to care about the people on earth as a whole, at all, they all hated the earthlings.

In Gen 3 we've been shown Deen and ... well, Lu. Waah waah people have it horrible back on Mars, sure. thats horrible and all, but its Ezelcants fault and people who ruled earth soon to be 200 years ago.

Vagans have, and is still portrayed in a bad way, Deen and Lu isnt going to change the entire view people have on the Vagan as a whole.

As you said yourself:

you can't really judge an entire population by the actions of one guy. (Or his red haired younger sister who was dying)

Of course you cant, but you can judge an entire population by what the majority of its population has done sofar, and thats been ruthless killing of civilians and war crimes that tops Zeon outside of colony drops.

Nobody tops Zeon in terms of body count AND being down right evil. Tomino's intention was for them to be the clear cut bad guys, and he modeled them after Nazi germany right down to the uniforms, the political rallies and even had direct references to Hitler. The problem is they were actually fleshed out as bad guys, with the majority of the grunts being regular Joes doing their jobs, with the few psycopaths in positions of power making all the evil decisions, like it usually is IRL. In addition to this, the Federation, while being the "good guys" also had its share of morally questionable characters, i.e Bask Om, Shiro's commander, etc. In terms of realism, any population of humans is bound to have its bad apples, but rarely do the bad apples make up the majority. If that comes across as being the case, then somewhere along the line someone failed terribly...

[overloard]

Originally Posted by Se7en Sabers

But the Federation troopers don't go attacking and butchering civilians Vagan even if they didn't have the occasion to do so

As I said, majority of Vagan soldiers have never done anything like this. But anyway, I'm pretty sure if you let squadron of federation pilots in the Second Moon it could very well result in the massacre similar to Olivernotes. They don't even have to be bad people, just angry and confident that they are justified in their actions

[Se7en Sabers]

Originally Posted by overloard

As I said, majority of Vagan soldiers have never done anything like this. But anyway, I'm pretty sure if you let squadron of federation pilots in the Second Moon it could very well result in the massacre similar to Olivernotes. They don't even have to be bad people, just angry and confident that they are justified in their actions

I agree.


The truly bad point is we don't get a or many recurring characters on the Vagan side exploring their pain of their usual life, their motivation.

Instead, we always (or most of the time) have the same line : you banned us so, we are going to make you pay !

Sure, there is the couple of poor kids in Kyo's arch but come on, near the end of the show ?

thus, we have two distinct side : the good ones and the bad ones without any shades of grays.

[Dengar]

I do agree it's a pretty poor story writing choice to focus so much on the Feds' POV.

[Znozzy]

Originally Posted by Dengar

Just to be sure I don't get ostracised or anything, I will acknowledge that Vegans have committed a few war crimes. I do feel it is unfair to judge all of Vegan by just this. It's not like I was saying all Earthers deserve to die because the government condemned all of them to death either. My point is that the Vegans were in pain, and now the Earthers are feeling similar pain, and are fighting for their lives, and of course shooting down the soldiers who are attacking you isn't exactly criminal, or even 'wrong'. However, to say they, (and by "they", i mean "all Vegans") are EVIL, is blowing things out of proportion. They have a reason for fighting: Some of them want revenge, others want to make sure they (or at least their families) survive. If you're saying it's ok to wipe out all of the Vegans for "what they did", you cannot say that the reverse isn't true.

In the end, everyone is a human being, who fight for what they believe in. And Kio really is no different. He fights to make all humans survive. Kind of like Ezelcant, but in a less messed up way.

Why is it unfair? The majority of the Vagan has been shown to support Ezelcant
the only Vagan that has been shown to NOT hate earthlings is Lu, and she died around 5 minutes later.

We can speculate if the Vagans in the colonies hate Earthlings or not, but we've been given no proof that they don't, they support Ezelcant in his holy war to reclaim Earth and their Eden, at the same time, i don't bring them up because it's speculation if they support the war there or not.

Originally Posted by overloard

To be fair, majority of vagans have done no such things. So far only Gerra Zoi' forces and Zeheart with his idiotic attack on Olivernotes can be considered war criminals, a that's only small portion of vagan forces. Other Vagan soldiers are just typical military forces and no better/worse than their federation counterparts.

Destroying 3 civilian colonies, attacking people out of the blue, Killing civilians many times over, supplying mobile suits to rival gangs to cause chaos, Oh, Attacking more civilians, and oh, Attacking more civilians instead of military targets, Doing the same thing in each generation.

As i mentioned above, the only Vagan who has been portrayed in a good manner is Lu, and to a extent Deen, Fram isnt a good nice character, she was driven by revenge and now she is driven by her death flag lust towards Zeheart's approval. Zeheart has always been loyal to the Vagan, not even his friendship with Asemu and Romary changed that.

Oh, Maybe Ezelcant's housekeeper, she seemed like a happy character.

List of good Vagans:
Lu
Deen
Housekeeper

Originally Posted by Revolutionist

Nobody tops Zeon in terms of body count AND being down right evil. Tomino's intention was for them to be the clear cut bad guys, and he modeled them after Nazi germany right down to the uniforms, the political rallies and even had direct references to Hitler. The problem is they were actually fleshed out as bad guys, with the majority of the grunts being regular Joes doing their jobs, with the few psycopaths in positions of power making all the evil decisions, like it usually is IRL. In addition to this, the Federation, while being the "good guys" also had its share of morally questionable characters, i.e Bask Om, Shiro's commander, etc. In terms of realism, any population of humans is bound to have its bad apples, but rarely do the bad apples make up the majority. If that comes across as being the case, then somewhere along the line someone failed terribly...

I said the Vagan's top Zeon in war crimes, as in killing civilians (Zeon gassed colonies, Vagans destroyed them) Zeheart's fellows Glassed Olivernotes, Zeon wiped out several cities (hell, even part of a country) with their actions.

That's why i compared the two, it has nothing to do with who had the most sympathetic characters.

[overloard]

Originally Posted by Znozzy

Destroying 3 civilian colonies, attacking people out of the blue, Killing civilians many times over, supplying mobile suits to rival gangs to cause chaos, Oh, Attacking more civilians, and oh, Attacking more civilians instead of military targets, Doing the same thing in each generation.

As i mentioned above, the only Vagan who has been portrayed in a good manner is Lu, and to a extent Deen, Fram isnt a good nice character, she was driven by revenge and now she is driven by her death flag lust towards Zeheart's approval. Zeheart has always been loyal to the Vagan, not even his friendship with Asemu and Romary changed that.

Oh, Maybe Ezelcant's housekeeper, she seemed like a happy character.

List of good Vagans:
Lu
Deen
Housekeeper

95% things you listed were done by single vagan cell led by Gerra Zoi and other 5% go to Zeheart. Doesn't exactly encompass majority of the vagan soldiers. And though we didn't get to see vagan civilians a lot, I doubt that Deen's and Lu's neighbors from the next hovel to the left will happen to be mad Ezelcant's cultists with inborn malice toward Earthers.

[Dengar]

Originally Posted by Znozzy

Why is it unfair? The majority of the Vagan has been shown to support Ezelcant
the only Vagan that has been shown to NOT hate earthlings is Lu, and she died around 5 minutes later.

I never said they didn't support Ezelcant or that they didn't hate Earthers. They DO support Ezelcant and they DO hate Earthers. What is exactly the point you are trying to make?

[Znozzy]

Originally Posted by Dengar

I never said they didn't support Ezelcant or that they didn't hate Earthers. They DO support Ezelcant and they DO hate Earthers. What is exactly the point you are trying to make?

That its fair to judge the Vagan as a whole from what we've been shown sofar in the show.

Originally Posted by overloard

95% things you listed were done by single vagan cell led by Gerra Zoi and other 5% go to Zeheart. Doesn't exactly encompass majority of the vagan soldiers. And though we didn't get to see vagan civilians a lot, I doubt that Deen's and Lu's neighbors from the next hovel to the left will happen to be mad Ezelcant's cultists with inborn malice toward Earthers.

Sofar, 47 episodes in the show we've seen nothing that points towards the Vagans not supporting Ezelcant and his views. We can only speculate, without any information to back it up, that the Vagan people are nice, when we've seen proof that they are not, Also both those cells took orders from Ezelcant, i don't see the point you are trying to make there, care to elaborate?

Of course, i know the Vagan population is unaware of Ezelcant's true project Eden, but that doesn't change the fact that they follow & support his massacre of civilians in the Earth Sphere.

[Dengar]

Originally Posted by Znozzy

That its fair to judge the Vagan as a whole from what we've been shown sofar in the show.

Just because they hate Earthers?


Ok, all of the Earthlings are outright bastards because they hate Vegans!

How is the former statment any different form the latter?

[Revolutionist]

Originally Posted by Znozzy

I said the Vagan's top Zeon in war crimes, as in killing civilians (Zeon gassed colonies, Vagans destroyed them) Zeheart's fellows Glassed Olivernotes, Zeon wiped out several cities (hell, even part of a country) with their actions.

That's why i compared the two, it has nothing to do with who had the most sympathetic characters.

Your comparison is way off. Very few villains top Zeon in terms of war crimes, and the Vagans don't even come close. Zeon not only gassed the colonies, they dropped them on Earth, and by the end of ONE year, over half the human population was dead as a result of their actions, be it from colony drops or blatant use of WMDs. I suggest you brush up on your Early UC. Vagans have killed less people in 70 years than the Zeeks did in 1 lol.

[Znozzy]

No, because they support the massacre of other civilians, if anything, the Vagans, with their history, should understand that Civilians take the blame for their superiors fuckups.

There is one thing to hate someone, but wiping his entire family off the grid is another.

See the difference?

Originally Posted by Revolutionist

Your comparison is way off. Very few villains top Zeon in terms of war crimes, and the Vagans don't even come close. Zeon not only gassed the colonies, they dropped them on Earth, and by the end of ONE year, over half the human population was dead as a result of their actions, be it from colony drops or blatant use of WMDs. I suggest you brush up on your Early UC. Vagans have killed less people in 70 years than the Zeeks did in 1 lol.

ruthless killing of civilians and war crimes that tops Zeon outside of colony drops.

outside colony drops

outside colony drops

as in:

not counting colony drops

The point i was trying to make, was that the Vagan's is the only other group in the Gundamverse that has been close to kill as much civilians as Zeon did without colony drops without giving a shit. (Disregarding Gundam X, but that's complete overkill, and that would be comparing things way off)

[Dengar]

Originally Posted by Znozzy

No, because they support the massacre of other civilians, if anything, the Vagans, with their history, should understand that Civilians take the blame for their superiors fuckups.

There is one thing to hate someone, but wiping his entire family off the grid is another.

See the difference?

Not really. If the Earthers were trapped on Mars and somehow obtained access to superior military technology, and if the Vegans were the ones living on earth in Blissful Ignorance, I doubt the outcome would've been much different.

[Znozzy]

That all depends on if their dictator's son died or not

[Revolutionist]

Originally Posted by Znozzy

No, because they support the massacre of other civilians, if anything, the Vagans, with their history, should understand that Civilians take the blame for their superiors fuckups.

There is one thing to hate someone, but wiping his entire family off the grid is another.

See the difference?



ruthless killing of civilians and war crimes that tops Zeon outside of colony drops.

outside colony drops

outside colony drops

as in:

not counting colony drops

The point i was trying to make, was that the Vagan's is the only other group in the Gundamverse that has been close to kill as much civilians as Zeon did without colony drops without giving a shit. (Disregarding Gundam X, but that's complete overkill, and that would be comparing things way off)

Do you even know what a war crime is or are you just fucking trolling? Why would you not count colony drops? Dropping a colony on Earth and killing billions of civilians is a goddamn war crime any way you want to slice it. You don't get to ignore that fact just because it suits your distorted argument.

The Vagans blew up two colonies, and the Feds managed to evacuate the entire population of one, so in terms of Earth sphere losses, the Vagans only killed 1 colony worth of civilians + the attacks on Flit's home colony and other random, small scale attacks here and there + Olivernotes.

Zeon on the other hand attacked Sides 1, 2, 4 and 5, which contained clusters of colonies, the numbers aren't exact but they destroyed several colonies, and murdered billions of people not counting those that died on Earth once they dropped colonies. Then there are the subsequent insurrections and colony drops in the years following the OYW carried out by Zeon loyalists.
The vagans are bad, but they don't even come close to the Zeon.

You need to get your facts straight.

[overloard]

Originally Posted by Znozzy

Sofar, 47 episodes in the show we've seen nothing that points towards the Vagans not supporting Ezelcant and his views. We can only speculate, without any information to back it up, that the Vagan people are nice, when we've seen proof that they are not, Also both those cells took orders from Ezelcant, i don't see the point you are trying to make there, care to elaborate?

Of course, i know the Vagan population is unaware of Ezelcant's true project Eden, but that doesn't change the fact that they follow & support his massacre of civilians in the Earth Sphere.

My point is that judging whole vagan military/population by the actions of Gerra Zoi's and Zeheart's cells is a mistake. Those two are Ezelcant's personal task forces and their actions, knowingly to them or not, most likely directed toward advancement of Project Eden. So far, i can't remember a single instance of regular Vagan military forces purposefully slaughtering civilians or doing other things from your list. It's just a speculation, of course, but I think it reasonable to assume that for the most of the Vagan soldiers involvement in the war is limited to fighting Federation military. Therefore claiming that majority of vagan population is formed by mass murderers and war criminals and could be judged on that basis is wrong.