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Old 2013-04-22, 06:50   Link #1041
mikeomni
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Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor View Post
Then it must be one helluva assurances considering how much unnecessary lost Gargantia fleet suffered in order to obtain it.
Yes, it's still silly due to the cost in lives and material. It also seemed like Fairlock was willing to be a noble(?-yah) sacrifice to appease the pirates. If you layer all these conflicting requirements together it's all wonky. They didn't have the power to make Ledo go away, despite the words of some of their leaders, only the ability to tell him they didn't want him there.

Think of Afghanistan where attack choppers do use Maverick missiles on taliban infantry. An ANA officer doesn't have the ability to intercept those missiles even if he had RPGs, all he could do is ask "pretty please don't use them, they scare us and the neighbors." If your words are respected then it's something far more effective than the weapon in your hands. I'm thinking this may have played into the decision process.
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Old 2013-04-22, 07:31   Link #1042
Jan-Poo
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Originally Posted by justinstrife View Post
And ontop of that, in the beginning of the episode where they are discussing what to do with him, they act like they have some kind of power to resist him if they had to 'deal with him'. Hello, Did you not see what he did to the Pirates? You people are morons. You can't decide to hand him over to the pirates, or dump him overboard and take his mecha. -facepalms-
Actually considering how easily Ledo accepted food, some of them could think of the possibility of poisoning him. The problem is that they don't know how Chamber would react. It seems that they have a problem understanding what an A.I. is.

Anyway they do have a bargaining point which is pretty evident. Ledo obviously wants something from them, and it is apparent by the fact he doesn't attack them and that he's been waiting for days literally doing nothing in the hope of receiving an alliance agreement.

Ledo understands the necessity of finding human allies to provide for his needs as a human. Just because he can destroy everything it doesn't mean that he can be self-sufficient.
Chamber initially had a different idea on how to acquire that. Basically he wanted to subdue the whole fleet. It wasn't a completely wrong strategy, but very risky. Ledo had very little knowledge on those people and he didn't know if they would acknowledge him as their new leader after witnessing his display of power.
This is a tactic that would have probably worked with the pirates though, but at that point I think that Ledo was already affected by Amy's honesty and sincerity. He's probably wishing even more to be on the Gargantia's side, even if unconsciously. Bellows talk probably made him realize that they can be people that he can trust too.

Anyway the people on the Gargantia can decide whether to accept his wish to become their ally or not. But Ridget probably realized that if they said "no" then they would leave Ledo with no other choice but to try with the pirates with the awful consequences that that would imply.

They have already witnessed how Ledo has little care for human lives, the hypothesis of an alliance between him and the power hungry Luckage is absolutely terrifying.

It's a good thing that Ledo is a simple soldier and, as Chamber reminded him, he doesn't have the authority to decide what to do with that planet. Else someone else in his place would probably decide to ally with the more powerful and warmongering faction to subdue everyone else. Then the alliance would just need to step in and reap the fruits, dethroning the stupid power-hungry human who thought he could become emperor of earth for free.
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Old 2013-04-22, 07:49   Link #1043
Giriath
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Originally Posted by Hypernova View Post
Well the commanders here aren't thinking rationally either.

They've been shown to only ever considering two things:
-Cool mecha, let's rob him! ie. blond guy
-You don't exist, go away! The captain with his refusal to communicate directly, when Ledo first communicated the first thing he asked for was to speak with the one in charge. The officers seem to take insult at having to face Ledo.
I don't expect every character to always be rational in the fiction I read or watch, but characters that don't make sense in their context are a real thorn in my side.

Any non-comedy fiction should have plausible reasons for how their characters act in a given situation, or they don't feel at all human, which is a major source of disconnect for me—I can't get excited for characters (or plot) that make no sense. Even deus ex machina explanations, as horrible as they are, are better than no explanation at all.

If, as an example relevant to the show, a person has no hesitation and feels no remorse for taking human lives, there must be a reason that made them indifferent to this natural reaction. Ledo seems to have been a soldier since birth(?), and all his human interaction up until waking on the fleet was probably as allies vs the enemy, rather than as individuals and comrades; he has never known anything but being a soldier, and never identified anything with a designation other than ally or enemy, and enemies are to be killed.

A character that can kill indifferently like this, with no explanation why or how, would defy natural human behavior.

Last edited by Giriath; 2013-04-22 at 08:17.
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Old 2013-04-22, 08:10   Link #1044
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Originally Posted by Giriath View Post
I don't expect every character to always be rational in the fiction I read or watch, but characters that don't make sense in their context are a real thorn in my side.
Which is what I'm saying: The people in charge whose job is to make rational decisions are doing it.
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Old 2013-04-22, 08:21   Link #1045
Giriath
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Which is what I'm saying: The people in charge whose job is to make rational decisions are doing it.
And I agree. I made the same argument.
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Old 2013-04-22, 08:25   Link #1046
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And I agree. I made the same argument.
Ok sorry then I guess I misunderstood you

Ledo should really demand (I have stronger words in mind) to talk to the captain and just get his point across. This whole negotiating by delegates thing isn't really working.
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Old 2013-04-22, 08:58   Link #1047
solidvanz
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All about Chamber:
Spoiler for Large Images from Episode 1-3:
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Old 2013-04-22, 09:33   Link #1048
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All about Chamber:
Spoiler for Large Images from Episode 1-3:
I didn't learn a thing about chamber from your post.
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Old 2013-04-22, 10:32   Link #1049
Helius
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Originally Posted by Jan-Poo View Post
Actually considering how easily Ledo accepted food, some of them could think of the possibility of poisoning him. The problem is that they don't know how Chamber would react. It seems that they have a problem understanding what an A.I. is.

Anyway they do have a bargaining point which is pretty evident. Ledo obviously wants something from them, and it is apparent by the fact he doesn't attack them and that he's been waiting for days literally doing nothing in the hope of receiving an alliance agreement.

Ledo understands the necessity of finding human allies to provide for his needs as a human. Just because he can destroy everything it doesn't mean that he can be self-sufficient.
Chamber initially had a different idea on how to acquire that. Basically he wanted to subdue the whole fleet. It wasn't a completely wrong strategy, but very risky. Ledo had very little knowledge on those people and he didn't know if they would acknowledge him as their new leader after witnessing his display of power.
This is a tactic that would have probably worked with the pirates though, but at that point I think that Ledo was already affected by Amy's honesty and sincerity. He's probably wishing even more to be on the Gargantia's side, even if unconsciously. Bellows talk probably made him realize that they can be people that he can trust too.

Anyway the people on the Gargantia can decide whether to accept his wish to become their ally or not. But Ridget probably realized that if they said "no" then they would leave Ledo with no other choice but to try with the pirates with the awful consequences that that would imply.

They have already witnessed how Ledo has little care for human lives, the hypothesis of an alliance between him and the power hungry Luckage is absolutely terrifying.

It's a good thing that Ledo is a simple soldier and, as Chamber reminded him, he doesn't have the authority to decide what to do with that planet. Else someone else in his place would probably decide to ally with the more powerful and warmongering faction to subdue everyone else. Then the alliance would just need to step in and reap the fruits, dethroning the stupid power-hungry human who thought he could become emperor of earth for free.
That's a good point. We don't know how the Galactic Alliance perceive drifters who are not part of the Alliance. But life in space and indeed the military training had taught Ledo that enemies are to be eliminated, humans or not.

The reason he doesn't blow Gargantia to kingdom come like he did the pirates is because he wants something from them and he thinks bargaining and negotiation is the best course of action instead of subjugation.

And to respond to Hypernova's point, the top brass initially didn't know just how powerful Ledo/Chamber is. To them he was just some guy with a weird ass Yunboro that was dug up from the bottom of the ocean. At the time they had bigger concerns like the running of the fleet and its people.

Bear in mind their decisions are based on the extent of their knowledge. Before they didn't even know there were people living in space fighting a galactic war on a scale that is incomprehensible to them. Rinion rejected the notion outright, the Commodore thought it was irrelevant and that Ledo should be treated no differently than any other stowaway they'd come across.

So my point is, since all these ruckus happened onboard Ridget's ship, of course she'd deal with it as she saw fit. "Take me to your leader?", "Well tough, you're on my ship, I call the shots." That's what any authority would do in the situation, really. And of course they finally take him seriously after that little light show.
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Old 2013-04-22, 11:34   Link #1050
serenade_beta
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Spoiler for ep3:
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Old 2013-04-22, 12:03   Link #1051
Cytrus
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Originally Posted by serenade_beta View Post
Spoiler for ep3:
He might not understand their logic in those demands, but neither does he understand why they eat animal corpses. I think he's resolved to just accept things as they are and is past the point where he would immediately get angry when people do/say things he considers unreasonable.
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Old 2013-04-22, 12:14   Link #1052
Jan-Poo
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I thought that Ledo understood the logic behind Bellows' explanation.

Oh, I'm sure that he wouldn't think twice before lying and pretending to agree just to get their cooperation, but I thought he sincerely understood that one.
He waited quite a few seconds before answering, and that's a sign he was reflecting about it at the very least.
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Old 2013-04-22, 12:18   Link #1053
calorie
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Originally Posted by serenade_beta View Post
Spoiler for ep3:
Yeah, all that felt contrived. I can understand that there's a huge cultural difference but is it possible that there isn't a single person in that huge ship who could think that it would be unwise to reject Ledo and Chamber and waste human lives in an attempt to reason with ruthless pirates? These mecha-using earthlings are sufficiently advanced to recognize vastly superior technology, but they're acting like retards from the Stone Age, when the invincible duo from outer space could easily win any battle.

Oh and the water looks too generic and fake, needs more sea wave patterns.
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Old 2013-04-22, 12:19   Link #1054
Trajan
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I think if Gargantia was solely interested in de-escalating the situation and returning to the status quo ante, their best course of action would have been to ask/demand Ledo leave. The pirates come for their revenge and to reassert their dominance over the fleet and a limited engagement ensues. The pirates search the fleet for Chamber, don't find it, take some booty/slaves and leave, and everything goes back to the way it was before.

It's a less rational course of action to accept Ledo's "deal" if Gargantia does not wish to use Chamber's potential to severely cripple the pirates because it simply ensures that the pirates will continually attack Gargantia, both in an attempt to reassert their dominance (after being personally embarassed Lukkage must attack Gargantia again) and in an attempt to capture Chamber. As Bellows said, Gargantia's weapons are meant to deter the pirates from attacking because the costs of conflict outweigh the spoils the pirates might obtain. However, with an "unused" superweapon aboard Gargantia, the potential benefit to the pirates in attacking skyrockets, so in the future Gargantia is probably more likely to be attacked by the pirates with Chamber on-board.

However, perhaps something in their culture obligates them to accept Ledo's proposal. The phrase "give water to the one who catches the fish" is used several times throughout the episode. Bellows mentions it to Ledo, and explains it is as a concept of "mutual aid", but it also seems like it is also an obligation to assist/protect one who has done something beneficial for you. Ledo then uses this phrase to secure acceptance of his proposed deal. When Ridget suggests to the Fleet Commander that they accept Ledo's deal, he responds with "we mustn't neglect to give water to the one who catches the fish," which seems to indicate he is honor-bound to accept the deal.

From there, the limitation on using Chamber is not entirely understandable story-wise, but it make sense plot-wise. A common problem in sci-fi with any super-advanced technology is that it takes the drama out of the story. A prime example of this is the transporters in Star Trek. If you can simply beam people out of danger, then there is no real tension, danger, or excitement. So almost as soon as the transporters were introduced, the writers realized they had to continually come up with reasons why the transporters would not work, in order for the plot to have tension and drama. So to with Chamber. If he just nuked the entire pirate main fleet in episode 3, then were exactly does the plot go from there? A slice of life anime at sea for nine episodes?

Spoiler for Ledo's "threat":
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Old 2013-04-22, 12:41   Link #1055
Jan-Poo
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From there, the limitation on using Chamber is not entirely understandable story-wise, but it make sense plot-wise. A common problem in sci-fi with any super-advanced technology is that it takes the drama out of the story. A prime example of this is the transporters in Star Trek. If you can simply beam people out of danger, then there is no real tension, danger, or excitement. So almost as soon as the transporters were introduced, the writers realized they had to continually come up with reasons why the transporters would not work, in order for the plot to have tension and drama. So to with Chamber. If he just nuked the entire pirate main fleet in episode 3, then were exactly does the plot go from there? A slice of life anime at sea for nine episodes?
Oh I think everyone understands that, except it is generally seen as a flaw not something acceptable.

Take for example the question: "Why didn't they just let Ledo deal with the pirates?" Because then it would have been a completely lopsided battle where the pirates couldn't even score a single point. Instead we got to see the lobster mecha in action and seriously threatening the Gargantia.

Oh I understand that, except the storywriters are meant to come up with satisfying explanations.

It isn't a big deal to me, but it's still a flaw in my opinion.
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Old 2013-04-22, 12:45   Link #1056
Kaoru Chujo
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Originally Posted by serenade_beta View Post
The protagonist is a really chill guy to not get irritated at the crew. Scolding him for protecting people. Them telling him he shouldn't kill and all of that pacifist stuff then telling him to help them fend off the pirates. But all of that time, they themselves are shooting ammunition....)
No "pacifist stuff." Cool calculation from within a cultural context. And the difference isn't holes vs. vaporizing, it's struggling to kill a few people, vs. killing everybody and destroying their boats. The latter makes revenge necessary.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Trajan
I think if Gargantia was solely interested in de-escalating the situation and returning to the status quo ante, their best course of action would have been to ask/demand Ledo leave. The pirates come for their revenge and to reassert their dominance over the fleet and a limited engagement ensues. The pirates search the fleet for Chamber, don't find it, take some booty/slaves and leave, and everything goes back to the way it was before....
Interesting idea, but I think Gargantia's commander prefers to keep the superweapon, rather than being killed himself and having the pirates take more booty and slaves than normal. However, I do think he was prepared to give himself up before they decided to use Chamber.

We don't know yet whether the pirate queen will try again, or will have been sufficiently impressed by Chamber's power to just let things ride. Or even to try to find a way of sharing the benefits of Chamber. If she tries again, Gargantia may let Ledo use more of Chamber's firepower.

One thing I find interesting is how ready some Gargantians seem to be to kill Ledo and keep Chamber. In a real traditional society, the outsider gets short shrift. But the combination of Ledo/Chamber's power and the fact that Ledo/Chamber have already benefited ("brought water to") Gargantia, means they are beginning to accept the starfarers as part of the tribe. Beginning. Amy, of course, has already accepted them. My favorite line in the whole show was her "sugoi, sugoi, sugoi" ("wonderful," "wow") when she realized a machine was talking.
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Old 2013-04-22, 12:50   Link #1057
Kiss Shot
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Episode 3 was good fun in spite what I felt were reasoning inconsistencies by Bellows. I agree with the sentiment of not wanting to escalate the conflict but I feel the dialog and reasoning were fumbled a bit. I think stating they are a small fleet that does not want undue attention that would come with killing off a famous pirate clan, or scaring off other fleets from dealing with them would have worked better in my opinion. That combined with the "show of force" policy they seem to have might have made more sense to me.
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Old 2013-04-22, 12:59   Link #1058
Kirarakim
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I notice people think that with Chamber there is no problem, Ledo cannot solve. But that is only true if all the problems he faces are Gargantia based.

I think it would be a pretty weak story if the extent of conflict, Ledo faces is some pirates.

However we do not know what the future of the story will bring and we still have two loose threads, the aliens and Avalon. Do people truly believe these elements are not going to turn up in the story again at all? If that was the case why introduce them in the story in the first place?

That being said there could be a far greater threat to the Gargantians that Ledo and Chamber might have to face in the future.
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Old 2013-04-22, 13:02   Link #1059
Jan-Poo
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Bellows reasoning is basically:

If we cause them damage when they attack us they will know that there's no profit in doing so and look for another easier mark

If we humiliate them they will have no choice but shed more blood least they will lose their position as a threatening force.


Their objective is to reduce the chances of conflict against them, not to increase them. The logic is sound.
The problem is that at that point it was too late, they could either let them have their revenge or humiliate them even more.
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Old 2013-04-22, 13:07   Link #1060
calorie
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Oh yeah, by the way, didn't Chamber say something about limited energy reserves in the first episode? It's as if they've all forgotten about that by now -- they're blowing up shit with lasers and flying where in the beginning Chamber was concerned about even getting up and moving around IIRC.
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