High School DxD Light Novel - Character power-ups, match-ups, and ratings

[Giuseppe1234]

Originally Posted by B214

Do people know how the phoenix's tears work? Or on that sense, do people even understand how a devil's demonic powers work? It's not like everyone uses demonic power in the same way. If Diehauser can make those worthless, i don't see why he can't do the same to SG or Longinus in that sense.

Because maybe Longinus and Sacred Gear are a bit harder to understand? So much that for create an artificial SG were necessary many years of study to understand them.

Belial needed a match to study Riser and Ravel to understand the rigeneration of the tears and demoniac power is the most easy thing to understand.

If he was able of doing it, Issei in vol20 would have been unable to use the Boosted Gear.

[Marvix]

Diehauser could never make BG worthless because Issei's Penetrate counteracts Worthless.

[saucerKing]

Originally Posted by Giuseppe1234

Do you know is it impossible know how does Zenith work? He did not know BG that's should be easier to understand, let alone a longinus able to create and manipolate every element.

For Azazel, a true scientist are necessary so many years to understand the SG, while for Euclide was necessary Issei's body.

hence me saiyng "assuming he automatically knows", personally i dont think he can affect zenith tempest. the fireballs or some of the effects it creates sure, but not the source of them itself.

Originally Posted by B214

Do people know how the phoenix's tears work? Or on that sense, do people even understand how a devil's demonic powers work? It's not like everyone uses demonic power in the same way. If Diehauser can make those worthless, i don't see why he can't do the same to SG or Longinus in that sense.

diehauser has a few hundred years using demonic power himself so he very likely has a strong grasp on how it works, has very likely fought ruval many times since both are top ranked rating game players so him eventually understanding the regeneration by using what he himself knows about demonic power and the experience of said encounters is not impossible. and the phoenix tears can be explained by him being on rizevim side for some time, AKA the ones who were making artificial phoenix tears and thus had to know and have information on how it worked.

meanwhile, as giuseppe said, the lead expert on sacred gear research has only recently found out how to make working artificial sacred gears that are still inferior in comparison. there is no way that diehauser can understand a longinus of all things in middle of battle.

[Itsmepatrick]

Originally Posted by Giuseppe1234

Because maybe Longinus and Sacred Gear are a bit harder to understand? So much that for create an artificial SG were necessary many years of study to understand them.

Belial needed a match to study Riser and Ravel to understand the rigeneration of the tears and demoniac power is the most easy thing to understand.

If he was able of doing it, Issei in vol20 would have been unable to use the Boosted Gear.

Diehauser doesn't need to fully understand the whole sacred Gear and Longinus thing. As long he can understand how the ability of Sacred Gear and Longinus works it is already fine like what happened in volume 20 when he fought Issei. Even though he doesn't understand much about Sacred Gears he can invalidate Issei's Boost ability since he understands how this ability work .But he can't invalidate Penetrate since it can bypass all abilities ( even the Sacred Gear Canceller).

[Lucidrago]

Originally Posted by Itsmepatrick

Diehauser doesn't need to fully understand the whole sacred Gear and Longinus thing. As long he can understand how the ability of Sacred Gear and Longinus works it is already fine like what happened in volume 20 when he fought Issei. Even though he doesn't understand much about Sacred Gears he can invalidate Issei's Boost ability since he understands how this ability work .But he can't invalidate Penetrate since it can bypass all abilities ( even the Sacred Gear Canceller).

Penetrate is an ability just like Boost though. Worthless isn't some kind of defense that can be penetrated but an ability that can make special abilities worthless. In Volume 20, Diehauser had never seen Penetrate used before considering that Issei just got it in Volume 18 which may explain why he couldn't use Worthless on Penetrate.

[Itsmepatrick]

Originally Posted by Giuseppe1234

Because maybe Longinus and Sacred Gear are a bit harder to understand? So much that for create an artificial SG were necessary many years of study to understand them.

Belial needed a match to study Riser and Ravel to understand the rigeneration of the tears and demoniac power is the most easy thing to understand.

If he was able of doing it, Issei in vol20 would have been unable to use the Boosted Gear.

Why would Diehauser in volume 20 still need to Invalidate BG ?
At that time he was already able to invalidate Booster Gears basic ability even without being able to invalidate booster gear so at that time there's no point for him to learn the ins and outs of Sacred Gear and Longinus.Issei in Cardinal Crimson Promotion(his combat power at that time was just comparable to Ultimate class) at that time so logically speaking he was bound to lose even if he use the Penetrate and Longinus is Issei even stated himself that he can't defeat Diehauser even with that powerful combo.

[kiiro94]

Originally Posted by Itsmepatrick

For Indra it's like 50-50 if he fought Sirzechs. I think the power shown by him in his fight against Mahabali was not the full extent of his power.

But yeah I agree Sirzechs is a monster in his own right with his abnormal Power of Destruction. The same goes for Ajuka.

No, Sirzechs is 2.5 times stronger than Indra just as I said. Why? Well, Indra is said to be as strong as the Yondai Maou, and Sirzechs is 10 times stronger than a Satan in his full power.

[Giuseppe1234]

Originally Posted by kiiro94

No, Sirzechs is 2.5 times stronger than Indra just as I said. Why? Well, Indra is said to be as strong as the Yondai Maou, and Sirzechs is 10 times stronger than a Satan in his full power.

It was said years ago while we did not know nothing about him and Gods and actually that declaration is not more valid. Furthemore the power level changed.

Loki, a God of middle level were able to manage easily Barakiel and Azazel, two Maou-Class at best equal to the OG and for him they were not even a threat. Now Indra is not only a top 10 beings, the best of every mythology, but even stronger than the major part of them. This is the guy able whose attacks are as strong as IF and x4 maou should be equal to him?

Even Typhon had to as strong as Ddraig, but we saw how it ended even with the help of a Chief-God.

[Itsmepatrick]

In my estimate Indra and Sirzechs should be more or less comparable to each other in terms of overall combat strength or if there's a gap it should be almost negligible in my opinion. But if I were to pick I'd pick Sirzechs over Indra due to Sirzechs Power of Destruction but that's me though.

[kiiro94]

So is Sirzechs still 2.5 stronger than Indra?

[Fog Gate Boss]

Originally Posted by kiiro94

So is Sirzechs still 2.5 stronger than Indra?

Out of morbid curiosity did you get the 2.5x figure from?

[XFire]

Originally Posted by Fog Gate Boss

Out of morbid curiosity did you get the 2.5x figure from?

Indra was rated as being as strong as the four Daimaou together.....and then we find out Sirzechs is ten times stronger than he was thought to be.

[Fog Gate Boss]

Originally Posted by XFire

Indra was rated as being as strong as the four Daimaou together.....and then we find out Sirzechs is ten times stronger than he was thought to be.

So these quotes.

Originally Posted by Volume 12 Life -3

…If Sakra also gets involved, then the Underworld will have an even bigger crisis on its hands. He is a Battle God that is said to have the power where all the four Maous have to combine their powers and finally, they would have the power which rivals him. When the First and Vali’s conversation finished, I interrupted their discussion.

The thing is that, I assume, Kiba is talking about the current Satans who are stronger than the former Original Satans, and each have powerful special abilities. Falbium with his Absolute Defence, Serafall with her...? and normal Ajuka who is a master magician who can control the magic of others, boost the power of his own attacks, etc, and Sirzechs who even in base form has great control over his PoD.

Indra would have to fight against four trained opponents at once, something that is incredibly difficult and nigh-impossible for real life fighters in a straight fight without a significant advantage in skill and strength.

Originally Posted by Volume 12 Satan

Are you telling me that insane quantity of power of destruction compressed itself into the form of a human……? But the quantity of aura I can feel with my skin……! From the amount of aura I can feel right now……. Isn’t it ten times more than that of the former Lucifer!?

Azazel is compared him against the Original Lucifer from the original band lineup. We don't know how much stronger the current Satans are compared to the OG. The only time I remember a fight is between Ajuka against a Leviathan descendant in Zero who got her magic subverted against her and killed rather easily by him, but he is also a Super Devil even in base form, so he isn't representative to Falbium and Serafall. I have an English translation of Zero on my computer so I might read it again when I have time.

--
I don't disagree with True Form Sirzechs being stronger than Indra, but I don't agree with it either. I just don't know.

*Thinking about it, I don't remember if the current Satans have actually been stated in universe as being stronger. Forgive me if that is community head canon.

[kiiro94]

Originally Posted by Fog Gate Boss

So these quotes.


The thing is that, I assume, Kiba is talking about the current Satans who are stronger than the former Original Satans, and each have powerful special abilities. Falbium with his Absolute Defence, Serafall with her...? and normal Ajuka who is a master magician who can control the magic of others, boost the power of his own attacks, etc, and Sirzechs who even in base form has great control over his PoD.

Indra would have to fight against four trained opponents at once, something that is incredibly difficult and nigh-impossible for real life fighters in a straight fight without a significant advantage in skill and strength.



Azazel is compared him against the Original Lucifer from the original band lineup. We don't know how much stronger the current Satans are compared to the OG. The only time I remember a fight is between Ajuka against a Leviathan descendant in Zero who got her magic subverted against her and killed rather easily by him, but he is also a Super Devil even in base form, so he isn't representative to Falbium and Serafall. I have an English translation of Zero on my computer so I might read it again when I have time.

--
I don't disagree with True Form Sirzechs being stronger than Indra, but I don't agree with it either. I just don't know.

*Thinking about it, I don't remember if the current Satans have actually been stated in universe as being stronger. Forgive me if that is community head canon.

Well, nothing says that current maous are stronger than the former. Only Ajuka and Sirzechs are stronger than Maou class even in base.

The other 2 are Satan Class tier, maybe even the former were stronger.

[B214]

G

Originally Posted by kiiro94

Well, nothing says that current maous are stronger than the former. Only Ajuka and Sirzechs are stronger than Maou class even in base.

The other 2 are Satan Class tier, maybe even the former were stronger.

We don't know that for sure, Ishibumi never clarify if Serafall and Falbium is weaker or stronger than the originals. For starters, I've mentioned before once there's a "class", there will be a range. Just because a person is a God doesn't mean they're powerful. Even with the Five Dragon Kings, they aren't equal in strength, otherwise Tiamat wouldn't be call strongest of the five.
For me, I just consider that Maou-class are devils who have power equivalent to Gods, while Super Devils are Devils with powers beyond Gods.

[Giuseppe1234]

Originally Posted by kiiro94

Well, nothing says that current maous are stronger than the former. Only Ajuka and Sirzechs are stronger than Maou class even in base.

The other 2 are Satan Class tier, maybe even the former were stronger.

"It's simple. Currently in the Underworld, the four of you are by far the strongest demons, and to be honest, you're probably stronger than the deceased Maou. You are the most suitable candidates to occupy their thrones.”

It was enough have read Dx4 where Ravel stated Issei and even Grayfia to have a power maou-class or even better.

Originally Posted by B214

For me, I just consider that Maou-class are devils who have power equivalent to Gods, while Super Devils are Devils with powers beyond Gods.

Maou-class is a class with powers inferior to Gods. I remember you how in vol7 Loki could easily handle together Azazel and Barakiel, two maou-class that were seen by him as Bugs? And Loki is neither a powerful God.

Super Devils, depending on their power have power that overpass or are equivalent to Gods. Depending on what level of Gods.

Originally Posted by XFire

Indra was rated as being as strong as the four Daimaou together.....and then we find out Sirzechs is ten times stronger than he was thought to be.

Are we really going to believe to an old citation not more valid because the feats showed other? When the power of Gods weren’t really introduced and many thing changed?

In vol12 it was always said the difference between Ophis and Shiva was extremely immense, but then Ophis lost 1/4 of her power, neither half is weaker than Shiva.

Ishibumi said Typhoon was equal to Ddraig, but we have seen there is a big power gap even with the help of Apollon.

Loki could easily handle together two maou class beings and it’s not even a Chief God. Ddraig could easily handle Typhoon and Apollon. Indra, who is even more powerful firing from each attack an Infinity blaster should have difficulty to handle x4 maou?

Hell, even Hades that’s weaker was stated that Azazel, Sirzechs base form, Dulio (the victory card of Heaven) and Tobio (God level) together could not even challenge him.

Loki did x2 and During the peace meeting where there were him, Sirzechs, Serafall and Michael, Kiba stated Azazel’s power was the the second strongest here.

[B214]

Originally Posted by Giuseppe1234

Maou-class is a class with powers inferior to Gods. I remember you how in vol7 Loki could easily handle together Azazel and Barakiel, two maou-class that were seen by him as Bugs? And Loki is neither a powerful God.

Again nothing from the story indicates that Maou-class is inferior to God-class. If you're going to use feat, Fenrir is top 10 beast that is equivalent to Ddraig & Albion but all his current feat doesn't feel that way, so feats doesn't mean much. Besides in combat, experience matters more than power, Sun Wukong is always the best example. Even Cao Cao overpowered the Gremory and Vali team in V11 but is Cao Cao stronger than them in power? So there's nothing to say that a God will always win against a Maou vice versa.

[Giuseppe1234]

Originally Posted by B214

Again nothing from the story indicates that Maou-class is inferior to God-class. If you're going to use feat, Fenrir is top 10 beast that is equivalent to Ddraig & Albion but all his current feat doesn't feel that way, so feats doesn't mean much. Besides in combat, experience matters more than power, Sun Wukong is always the best example. Even Cao Cao overpowered the Gremory and Vali team in V11 but is Cao Cao stronger than them in power? So there's nothing to say that a God will always win against a Maou vice versa.

Nothing indicates? Loki is middle God and could easily stop together two maou-class.

Issei CxC was completely destroyed by Thanatos, a God-Class being.

Issei specifically said he need to use DxD to fight God-Class beings of every type and even Sairaorg Btb because his power is higher than a maou-class.

Otherwise for which reason it existes the term over-maou class or Super Devil? Because each of them overpassed the maou-class reaching the God-Class.

Experience is always irrelevant in combat aside if you are Strada or Vasco. Shall I have to remember you how Issei defeated enemies with centuries or thousands years of experience?

Sun Wukong even if lacks in raw power is always a God-Class being and Cao Cao together Kiba and Nezha are the only three technique types who can fight stronger opponents due to their technique in the whole story.

In raw power a maou-class is always inferior to God-Class of every level.

[Xuanwu]

Kiba was wrong about Azazel's power. Azazel had to use Balance Breaker to win against Cattleya, who is weaker than Serafall. Shalba was only on par with the previous Beelzebub using Ophis’ snake, so Cattleya should be around that level with Ophis’ snake as well.

Sirzechs > Serafall > original Beelzebub ~ Shalba w/ Ophis’ snake ~ Cattleya w/ Ophis’ snake >~ Azazel. So he was definitely not the second strongest at the peace conference.

The current Maou were said to be on par with the previous Maou in Volume 2 or so, but subsequent volumes have retconned them to be above that level. There's a lot of powerscaling retcons, simply because the novel has gone on longer than Ishibumi planned for.

[B214]

Originally Posted by Giuseppe1234

Nothing indicates? Loki is middle God and could easily stop together two maou-class.

Issei CxC was completely destroyed by Thanatos, a God-Class being.

Issei specifically said he need to use DxD to fight God-Class beings of every type and even Sairaorg Btb because his power is higher than a maou-class.

Otherwise for which reason it existes the term over-maou class or Super Devil? Because each of them overpassed the maou-class reaching the God-Class.

Experience is always irrelevant in combat aside if you are Strada or Vasco. Shall I have to remember you how Issei defeated enemies with centuries or thousands years of experience?

Sun Wukong even if lacks in raw power is always a God-Class being and Cao Cao together Kiba and Nezha are the only three technique types who can fight stronger opponents due to their technique in the whole story.

In raw power a maou-class is always inferior to God-Class of every level.

First off, where's your proof that Loki is a middle-class God? Also Norse is known to be more advance in magic than the Christianity. What's so weird if Loki who's a Norse God is able to use Norse magic proficiently to create an equation to negate Azazel and Barakiel's attack? Magic isn't all about power, there's equation involved in it as well.

Second, "Issei CxC was completely destroyed by Thanatos, a God-Class being." Your point? Ise also got trashed by Diehauser in CxC, are you going to say it was before unlocking DxD? You can say that but it doesn't change that Ise CxC still lost to Diehauser.

Third, "Otherwise for which reason it existes the term over-maou class or Super Devil? Because each of them overpassed the maou-class reaching the God-Class."
Again, where in the story has it been mentioned that God-class is superior than Maou-class. This is going back to the Great Red > Ophis thing. Ishibumi never confirmed that, its just us fans thinking so. Also Devils aren't Gods, it doesn't make sense for them to be called God-class when they're beings that are direct opposite of them. As for Super Devils are, they are Devils that transcended logic, Sirzechs & Ajuka literally have hack like abilities that easily surpasses even Gods. Even Rizevim has the SG Canceller that would make a Longinus useless before him when a Longinus is created to kill Gods. The Rizevim portion is before Ise unlocking Penetrate.