Code Geass R2 - Episode 25 Discussion / Poll [END]

[Frostfire]

Originally Posted by Xander

But that means it's not so unexpected for him to keep contradicting himself, so I think it's a matter of time, because Suzaku's had several moments of rage, coldness or single-minded determination before...the difference is he pulled himself back most of the time or the situation changed somehow (see: his search for Zero/Lelouch at the end of season one, the phone call to Nunnally, his attempted use of Refrain on Kallen, etc). Again, Suzaku was convinced about ZR off-screen and his behavior had to change somehow to reflect that, dropping the last bits of his preaching which he had brought up against Charles and Lelouch, even as part of the plan...which is one reason why I don't like the use of time skips in this show, since that part of his development didn't flow too well.

That is the underlying problem, and the problem I've been talking about for the ending of R2. The skips changed characters in significant ways. Character A went on to become Werewolf A with little explanation. I've thrown the word cop-out a few good times, but that is exactly what this was. Whether a lack of time, or a lack of explanation of how to get from A to B, or even a lack of caring, something was lacking on the creative staff for them to gloss over such a pivotal character change.

Further, as was brought up, the Mutuality short story goes well on its way to even contradicting the idea that he chaged during the skip. He was supposedly still trying to talk Lelouch out of it and was being his best friend. There is a bit of an even bigger jump if we take that as canon because you end up going from: enemies -> friends -> vindictive assholes with a grude towards one another. I can understand: enemies -> time skip -> vindictive assholes with a grudge towards one another. I can't understand the former all that well, however.

Did Lelouch get pissy that Suzaku was trying to stop him... and then Suzaku got pissy at Lelouch getting pissy?

Originally Posted by Xander

Expecting Schneizel to come to power once Charles dies is one thing, but that doesn't mean he would be allowed to outright depose Charles by force without any opposition, even if as an absolute minimum that meant dealing with Bismark and the other Knights. After all, Britannia officially promoted survival of the fittest so theoretically Charles himself would want to put up a fight and not go quietly into the night, if for whatever reason he just couldn't complete the Ragnarok Connection, which would make everything anyone else did irrelevant (since he'd get his magical world of understanding and impose it on humanity).

Killing Lelouch within the World of C would pretty much mean that Charles would win. Killing him afterwards was prevented because Lelouch managed to sell the new plan to Suzaku off-screen. For all we know, Suzaku originally intended to do what you've just said.

Killing Lelouch in the World of C means that Schneizel wins, not Charles. Charles had at that point lost completely. The world was either going to move forward roughly (Lelouch) or stasis-lock (Schneizel). The past had already lost when Charles and his system fell to pieces. I doubt Suzaku is intelligent enough to really plan that far ahead, I would say his actions have always been impulsive and stupid.

The only shown opposition to his rise is Bismark. Schneizel does not have to explain how Charles has died, he can simply make note that he has been informed of the matter and that he, as the most capable (and likely supported by the eldest brother) would take command during the investigation. A man as politically suave as Schneizel would not simply depose his father in the face of everyone. The other KoR seem to have been split (with Gino being a complete daliance with pointlessness) following eithe Schneizel or Bismark. But seeing as how quickly Suzaku disposed of them, I doubt anyone other than Bismark would have been even a remote problem.

Not to mention the complete absurdity of everyone forgetting Schneizel's little coup at around Turn 20. It came up and then was completely forgotten as if it had not happened. It was something, rather clearly, just introduced as a plot detour to get it moving on that aspect. But the entire scene plays out as "Oh no how terrible" to two episodes later, "Oh schneizel our savior who tried to coup and do the same thing Lelouch did will save us from Lelouch." I've heard of fighting fire with fire, but this fighting a fire by burning down everything that can burn in the vicinity.

Originally Posted by Xander

Yes, Lelouch's definitely presented as an emotional wreck, which is why even if he could have rationally decided to do something else he didn't do so...but whether you believe he was merely running away or not is a matter of personal philosophy and values. There's no absolute moral standard.

I am more trying to base it on his own actions through the show, than my own standards. Character evolution tends to make this hard, but until ZR Lelouch had hardly changed through R2.

Originally Posted by Xander

I won't even try to explain Schneizel, since I also didn't quite get what was going on with him there and didn't really like him as a character.

He was the final villain, what else is there to get? They needed someone to oppose Lelouch to make him the protagonist.

Originally Posted by Xander

A pessimistic interpretation is valid, but so is a more positive one, because there's really no way to confirm either of them other than "I expect this to happen based on my interpretation of historical example X, you expect something else based on your interpretation of historical example Y" without enough solid information.

Fair enough, we'll skip the history lesson.

Originally Posted by Xander

A lot of this is also up to personal interpretation. We are talking about a warmongering tyrant who ruled over the entire world, however briefly, as opposed to a massacre which happened during a single day in Japan (and which the Japanese themselves will remember the most, since they were the victims...but the real world isn't exactly the most caring and altruistic place today, even as genocides happen in Africa and elsewhere, but when certain world powers move and invade, everyone pays more attention, at least initially).

Initially, I have no doubt that Lelouch's little dabbling in evil would be more memorable. But after enough time and once history has settled, I would question how he'd match up against the Euphinator. If anything, the most baseline conclusion would be that they would both be remembered, back to back, in the anulls of history.

Originally Posted by Xander

To tell you the truth, I never expected history, of all things, to be accurately represented and dealt with in this show (extremely few series, like Legend of Galactic Heroes, even do an acceptable job). A world divided into three huge powers isn't what I would call a realistic setup, though even that idea was handled better in 00's first season (and I still wouldn't call it too realistic there either, even if some aspects of modern politics were given more attention, but that's for another discussion) than in Code Geass R1. I expected more from the plot, yes, but not in this area.

Historic history, sure. But the show did try to keep to its own history rather smoothly through S1, even if it was not done that well. In R2 history became more a luxury bonus at times than an expected.

Originally Posted by Xander

Without going over that on a case by case basis, which is where the differences lie, I guess you're right overall. There were indeed too many plot conveniences in this show, on a regular basis, but I don't think there's nothing else at all. Something can be too convenient and still work within the story, more or less.

I do not say nothing else at all. Simply too much convenience covering up and stretching everything else that may justify the events. You can bend a metal stick over and over to make all the fascinating twists you want, but eventually it will snap.

Originally Posted by Kaioshin Sama

Yes it certainly does little to address the possibility of a lasting threat. However, if Lelouch could give the world piece in this generations time then wouldn't that be enough. There is indeed no such thing as an end to conflict and there is nothing stopping one from arising again in this universe (sequel anyone?), but the show ended in the first peace in that world in a long long time. I say that's something accomplished, even if there's still lots of work to be done.

The problem is its not shown that he gave a lasting peace. He gave a peace, there's no real sign of it being a lasting one. Ougi is the prime minister for one, the man is as intelligent or politically suave as a sponge left out in the sun for too long. Had the epilogue been ten years later, not a few months later, then I would be in full agreeance with you. (Had ZR been longer lasting than 2 months, I'd be even more in agreeance. The problem is that all the skips are just short of being pointless and teetering on the edge of it. A time skip is supposed to be a substantial amount of time for pivotal events, not two months. The G00 four month skip was understandable where it was, even if it too took liberties to drive the plot. In the case of ZR a year skip would have made more sense.)

Originally Posted by Kaioshin Sama

Addressed above, but I defy that. You can never have eternal peace, but there can be a time of unity. Fpr example, during the 20th Century countries like the UK and Germany were at odds, but now they are steadfast allies. Same with Britain and France who had many eras of peace and warfare between them through the middle ages. This is like an end to the hundred years war, some may also call it a detente, although I think it's a little bit between a detente and a peace. Where are you getting two months from though? Anyway, at least this isn't as idealistic as the end to Gundam Wing which flat out goes, "And weapons called Mobile Suits were never seen again", implying a lasting peace, which just gets a "Pfft yeah right!" from me. I can't recall an instance were they called this ending a lasting peace, but feel free to point out to me where you think it might have been the case.

These contries were bound by long lasting war, attrition, and a need to work together, not a two month conflict.

... Gundam Wing, such a hilarious ending.

Originally Posted by Kaioshin Sama

Ohhh? Why not? What was preventing it from being the ending. Sure there could have been many other options for an ending, but that doesn't necessarily preclude or invalidate this one as a working finale.

It simply feels that Schneizel was nothing more than forced into being the antagonist for the sake of the ending. That is, if anything, not a good sign of a strong conclusion. I simply believe there could have been a much better ending put together.

Originally Posted by Kaioshin Sama

Well, to each his own there I suppose. Though basically you just absolved the blanks from being a universal fault with the series. I can dig that as I don't like it when people tell me how something should and shouldn't be based on nothing but their own assumptions. Glad you haven't hit this pitfall once in your post.

I am not one about universal faults. Universal faults may sometimes even be intentional faults. My problem is when things get knocked out of whack at strange moments for the sake of some twist or event.

Originally Posted by Kaioshin Sama

Sloppy this sloppy that, bad writing this, it's all a cliche and in the eye of the beholder. And if you understand the author's intention then it means that he succeed in doing what he needed to do. No script is ever perfect, no instance of writing ever without it's flaws, and really if you want to see a lot of flaws in writing then you can just as easily find more of them in the arguments that have presented against this series then in all of Code Geass R2's script.

If by succeeded you mean forced me to go back, rewatch, and fill in the blanks with my own imagination to explain some of the absurdity, then yes. He succeeded. But few stories would call that a success. Missing some underlying motif is understandable and done often, but when you have to explain to yourself why this character started being so... awkward, you have to question it.

Not to mention just how many people evidentally did not understand the ending at all. *Points at the Kallen thread and the quote in there.*

Originally Posted by Kaioshin Sama

You know what though, I really don't care anymore to be honest. People have worn this sloppy writing, bad writing whatever hatchet so thin that it's high time they switched over to a new one. It's lost it's edge and ability to cut at the narrative of this show is what I'm trying to say and it's high time people learned to lay it to rest and to move on.

I am bored. I fight boredom with whatever happens to be on hand.

[Dream_Traveller]

He only reformed the world's largest empire then did an about turn, enslaving its soldiers and citizens to his will through the use of mind control and terror respectively, almost needlessly executed every single person he once knew, sans Ashforders, just so he could stage his equally needless grandiose theatrical display of a demise, and then broke the world over his knees, leaving everyone else to slowly pick up the pieces, when he could have suddenly not become an idiot, not have spat all over Euphemia's ideals and twisted her character into something totally unrecognizable, dealt with Schneizel without flipping out, and when he could have, by himself, and without having to kill himself and also become the world's most murderous and hated tyrant because he wanted to, led the world into a new age of prosperity.

But, hey, plot-induced stupidity, yes?

[bladeofdarkness]

the final battle is basiclly lelouch vs shnizel with the OOBK becoming shnizel's army
the problem with this script is that lelouch's actions made it completely possible for shnizel to be REMOVED ENTRIELY from the equation and it would still be a battle
its not as if the OOBK and the UFN are opposing lelouch BECOUSE they are on shnizels side
they are opposing him becouse LELOUCH declared a war against them (declared isnt quite the right word, since he struck first before saying anything)
and becouse they are fighting a DEFENSIVE WAR against him after HE attacked them and took their leaders hostage (during a peace summit) they end up fighting on the same side as shnizel
if shnizel chose to just sit back and then wipe out who ever is left, the battle at the end would have still happened all the same
which is why ZERO-R made no sense from the "he has to stop shnizel' angle

[Dream_Traveller]

You sure that was the only pointless aspect of Zero Requiem...?

[dantyx]

i heat you Suzaku sooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo much

[bladeofdarkness]

good point

i should also point out that if lelouch REALLY wanted to join the UFN
he could have the entire OOBK leadership step down from their positoins as the leaders of the UFN army
all he had to do was point out that since every country joining the UFN must surrender its army to be part of the OOBK
and the OOBK was formed for the purpose of fighting against britannia
which means that its corrent leadership is made up soley of britannia's enemies
its not possible to ask him to turn over his army to their control
he can then demand that the OOBK be disbanded in its corrent form and re-created in a way that better represents the NEW UFN (which britannia is now part of) and its leadership be made up of other more balanced people from both sides (stating out right that every corrent memeber of the OOBK leadership, should be ruled out)
given that he is basiclly offering to make his army part of this NEW OOBK
any member of the corrent OOBK leadership who tries to protest would look like they are letting their ego get in the way of world peace

[Levy]

let's try to be quick..

@Frost: (I'll answer better about Suzaku and Lelouch once I'll got a chance to re-read the Mutuality piece you're talking about, but, on the 'final boss thing'...)
To me, the ending of Code Geass was all Lelouch VS Lelouch, or better ... "will Lelouch succeed in getting what he wants or will he succumb under the pressure of his weaknesses?"
And putting him against his most precious thing - his beloved Nunnaly - in the end fits well in this reading.
Schneizel's plan was a plot device used to cause a bit of action and add the spice to the last battle, but it was Lelouch's ideals VS Lelouch's mask (and physicall persona, yes) and I still find the paradox of this - despite all the absurd stuff flying around the last arc and the rushed execution - brilliant *_*
*thunder*... be carefull, young man...One day, you'll fall for you own game, this is the fate of those who play too fondly...*_* *thunder*
=P

@yvj & Charred_knight: What if the hardcore noble nazis are all dead on Lelouch's order? I think it's slightly implied he killed off the followers of his father when Jeremiah came back reporting he took care of.. ahahrgscrewhisNameSomeRebelBrittNobleman.
The conservative fringe lead by Bismark in the army has been annhilated by Suzaku. Also, the capital city was blown out by Schneizel and the court with it, and people would be probably too tired of violence to really want to start a civil war against Nunnaly in order to restore the old system. Britannia is ready for a fresh start, and we can't know - for the moment - if Nunnally would stay as a ruler or is turning her country into a democracy - unless it's stated somewhere in side materials I'm oblivious of...
What doesn't work is more what blade said: Britannia has been shown as a nation of asses all though the series, and then a loli dressed in pink came and the UNF accepted them. Okay, I'll believe this because I love my Disney movie, but the writer could have put a little more effort in portraying Britannia less mislead if this is the ending they've planned from the vey start. ^^;

And I can see Lelouch fighting between the desire of living and the resolution of dying, I was just saying that I find coherent that Lelouch - Lelouch of the Rebellion - did not take the path of the supreme ruler on a long run. It's one of the aspects of ZeroRequiem I find less pointless....

[yvj]

Good points all around.

In hindsight ZR seems more and more pointless and illogical which makes it quite a stab at Lelouch's character. That said the end result looks less sacrificial and more cop out-ish.

What would have been funny was if Schneizel revealed that he would set up Damocles in a way where he could set it and then kill himself.

Then it would have been a race too see who could kill themselves for humanity first.

[bladeofdarkness]

Schneizel himself probably suffered the greatest character derailment in the show
he spends the entire show being billed as the only guy smarter then lelouch at his own game (ep 19 totally sells him as a great final villain)
and in the end he turns into a poor rip off of that dillando guy from GSD
the nuke spamming doom fortress alone is OOC for a guy who spends the entire show with a great understanding of people's hearts and a great touch for diplomacy (its just NOT RIGHT)
but the fact that he forgoes using it in the final battle is beyond dumb
he has an army about the same size of lelouch's at his command
and this army asked that he doesnt use his doom fort to nuke lelouch for fear of killing their leaders who are on board lelouch's flagship (a fact lelouch freaking TOLD HIM)
why on earth would he not simply say "how about i nuke the flanks of lelouch's army and take out most of his army that way and THEN send the OOBK to take over the avalon"
its in line with why the OOBK dont want him to nuke lelouch (it doesnt kill their leaders)
and it makes it impossible for him to lose the battle (he would have a much larger force that contains all the aces, except suzaku)
why did he instead opt to use CONVENTIONAL startegy against lelouch who has NEVER EVER EVEN ONCE had a battle in which he DIDNT use some crazy unconventional trick (not once during the entire show)
then there is the fact that he is holding nunnaly HOSTAGE (pretty much)
why isnt that point actually used in his plan ? (he knows lelouch better then to believe lelouch doesnt care about nunnaly)
and the final part about the way lelouch actually geass him is just beyond dumb as hell (so much has been said about this point that i dont even need to say anything)

[yvj]

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

Schneizel himself probably suffered the greatest character derailment in the show
he spends the entire show being billed as the only guy smarter then lelouch at his own game (ep 19 totally sells him as a great final villain)
and in the end he turns into a poor rip off of that dillando guy from GSD
the nuke spamming doom fortress alone is OOC for a guy who spends the entire show with a great understanding of people's hearts and a great touch for diplomacy (its just NOT RIGHT)
but the fact that he forgoes using it in the final battle is beyond dumb
he has an army about the same size of lelouch's at his command
and this army asked that he doesnt use his doom fort to nuke lelouch for fear of killing their leaders who are on board lelouch's flagship (a fact lelouch freaking TOLD HIM)
why on earth would he not simply say "how about i nuke the flanks of lelouch's army and take out most of his army that way and THEN send the OOBK to take over the avalon"
its in line with why the OOBK dont want him to nuke lelouch (it doesnt kill their leaders)
and it makes it impossible for him to lose the battle (he would have a much larger force that contains all the aces, except suzaku)
why did he instead opt to use CONVENTIONAL startegy against lelouch who has NEVER EVER EVEN ONCE had a battle in which he DIDNT use some crazy unconventional trick (not once during the entire show)
then there is the fact that he is holding nunnaly HOSTAGE (pretty much)
why isnt that point actually used in his plan ? (he knows lelouch better then to believe lelouch doesnt care about nunnaly)
and the final part about the way lelouch actually geass him is just beyond dumb as hell (so much has been said about this point that i dont even need to say anything)

I don't think he was derailed that much. For the most part he stayed within his limited character traits. Though I can't argue that his IQ didn't dip a bit here and there. The videotape anyone? Plus he really failed to utilize Kallen with any strategic value at all.

[Dream_Traveller]

Well, it's a rather iffy turn to see the man billed as Lelouch's greatest adversary with mysterious motives become yet another B-list villain with a god complex.

[DeX-kun]

Originally Posted by Dream_Traveller

Well, it's a rather iffy turn to see the man billed as Lelouch's greatest adversary with mysterious motives become yet another B-list villain with a god complex.

Wouldn't you say that Lulu's greatest adversary, was himself? At least that's what I got by the ending of the series.

[bladeofdarkness]

Lulu's greatest adversary (or in this case, ENEMY)
were the writers

[Kaioshin Sama]

Good point let's bash Geass some more, yeah good point. You know what, I give up. You people are hopeless. If rehashing this stuff over and over again is truly how you want to spend your time, if you truly have this little appreciation for the show, you've already ruined this subforum and the show. HAVE IT!

[yvj]

Originally Posted by Kaioshin Sama

Good point let's bash Geass some more, yeah good point. You know what, I give up. You people are hopeless. If rehashing this stuff over and over again is truly how you want to spend your time, if you truly have this little appreciation for the show, you've already ruined this subforum. HAVE IT!

Criticizing bad points is bashing now? Crappy writing = crappy writing

CG is a roller coaster extremely high points with just as many low points. I'm pretty sure the good points have had their fair time to be discussed.

[Kaioshin Sama]

Originally Posted by yvj

Criticizing bad points is bashing now? Crappy writing = crappy writing

CG is a roller coaster extremely high points with just as many low points. I'm pretty sure the good points have had their fair time to be discussed.

It's all you do though. Literally it's ALL YOU DO. I see like no point to it whatsoever. Crappy writing is just a cliche now. It's become the ultimate cliche. I'm so sick and tired of hearing a whole bunch of non-writers going on about bad writing when they can't even begin to understand the basics of writing. Just because you don't like something does not automatically make it cliched ass bad writing. Learn this already.

[Levy]

@Kayoshin: I wonder why the heck you bother when you are showing such a low consideration of the IQ of everyone here that you decode any single line of criticism here as childish and pointless bashing.

[bladeofdarkness]

the show had high points and low points
its just that the ending arc was the point where the whole thing just took a nose-dive fo no explainable reason other then the writers saying "lets go with the original plan for the ending" without taking into consideration that the NEW story renders the OLD ENDING oddly out of place
this could have been done better in many ways
but the pacing of the last arc doesnt allow for that
so instead you have several different concepts being introduced (ZERO-R, shnizels plan, half the cast coming back to life, suzaku's LEEV mode, etc) without being properly being explained
cut half of those ideas out and you have enough time to have a proper ending for the show
as it stands it just makes the ending arc ruin what was up to that point a rather good show (IMOH)

@Kayoshin
what makes you think we dont understand good writing ?
just about everyone in this forum has probably seen tens of animes
we can tell which ones are poorly written and which are well written

[Kaioshin Sama]

Originally Posted by Levy

@Kayoshin: I wonder why the heck you bother when you are showing such a low consideration of the IQ of everyone here that you decode any single line of criticism here as childish and pointless bashing.

Because as I said it's all you guys do now. It's not a case of any, it's a case of all by default. What kind of subforum is that. What if somebody wants to come in and say something good about the show. Does that mean they have to work around all of you guys and answer to you and all your implications of bad writing this, bad writing that? It's just getting stupid, and yes I am implying that it is childish. What haven't you people covered that you can't just drop it already.

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

the show had high points and low points
its just that the ending arc was the point where the whole thing just took a nose-dive fo no explainable reason other then the writers saying "lets go with the original plan for the ending" without taking into consideration that the NEW story renders the OLD ENDING oddly out of place
this could have been done better in many ways
but the pacing of the last arc doesnt allow for that
so instead you have several different concepts being introduced (ZERO-R, shnizels plan, half the cast coming back to life, suzaku's LEEV mode, etc) without being properly being explained
cut half of those ideas out and you have enough time to have a proper ending for the show
as it stands it just makes the ending arc ruin what was up to that point a rather good show (IMOH)

And if you ask me it was the bashers that totally ruined the show towards the end, not the writers, not Sunrise, the incessant complainers who just would not let anything go and totally ruined the forum experience for me and by extension brought my whole enjoyment of the show skyrocketing down at the end to the point where I just wanted to get it over with.

And you can tell which ones you THINK are poorly written, not which ones are poorly written. I'm sorry, you are not the word of god.

[Levy]

@Kaioshin: Maybe we have just a lot of time to waste.

And no, you must have overlooked a very huge bunch of discussions in which we deal also with what we liked and find cool in the show. I can become very narcissitic and point at you my post of this afternoon in wich I said that pushing Lelouch against himself in the end was brilliant, but that's just the first example that popped into my mind, there are alot of positive posts...

Any of this is gonna change the overall value of the show in any case - Code has both awesome and not-so-awesome parts. We still love to talk about this and I don't see how this can be a bad or childish thing, expecially in a place that should serve for discussion.