[Manga] Naruto Chapter 612 Discussion Thread

[TimeMask]

Originally Posted by itachi-san314

we have had characters like that before in akatsuki like deidara and hidan who just wanted to fight for the thrill of it. that lifestyle worked better for them since they were around kage level and did have a threat to them whether they chose to acknowledge it or not (which they didn't since they were both egomaniacs as well). but for madara, he's already too strong to be able to live like that. there doesn't really get much better an opponent in the ninja world than all 5 kages at once. and even though it wasn't an easy fight, he not only beat them, he taunted them the entire time suggesting that he had plenty of time to think and be disappointed in their performance. i think it is god level. he has infinite chakra and cannot be destroyed. all he can be is sealed which is the typical downfall for an omnipotent immortal in stories.

i agree that madara playing puppetmaster in a dream wouldn't be fun for him, but i also dont think that's what he really wants. if he were to setup something like the cell games in a tsukiomi world and power everyone up then that would be more his style. i'm not saying that's exactly what he wants either, but i highly doubt peace or full control over everyone's actions are what he wants. i think he probably only wants a new rival to replace hashirama

I could see Madara doing something a bit different with the moon eye plan then Obito expects.

Madara making everyone fight in tournaments in the genjutsu does seem more like something he would do instead of just making the genjutsu a world of peace. Unless Madara changed so much that he just wanted peace rather then to fight.

[Dengar]

I don't see why he can't make a world of peace where he can also fight. I mean it makes everyone's dream come sort-of-true right?

[Artimus_Prime]

Originally Posted by itachi-san314

i agree that madara playing puppetmaster in a dream wouldn't be fun for him, but i also dont think that's what he really wants. if he were to setup something like the cell games in a tsukiomi world and power everyone up then that would be more his style. i'm not saying that's exactly what he wants either, but i highly doubt peace or full control over everyone's actions are what he wants. i think he probably only wants a new rival to replace hashirama

i would like to see Madara just turn around and start smacking the juubi in the face...but he'll prolly end up having to fight a naruto/sasuke tag team...

[Ero-Senn1n]

Originally Posted by itachi-san314

we have had characters like that before in akatsuki like deidara and hidan who just wanted to fight for the thrill of it.

What i meant is a guy whose primary goal in life is to have great battles. Deidara's main goal was to refine his "art", while Hidan was worshiping a god. So in my opinon neither of these two or any other akatsuki fit the Evil-Goku personality

Originally Posted by itachi-san314

... i think it is god level. ...

Those are good points, we really can't say for sure what is Madara's motivation from his actions until now.

To me it seemed that Madara always uses just as much power as it is needed to have an interesting and risky fight, so i concluded that he wants to have fun by taking some risk. I mean he was always reacting to stronger attacks by activating stronger jutsu of his own. First sharingan, then EMS, then rinnegan. He could have ended quickly the whole thing with a perfect susano, but he just chose to have fun and he even stated that. Of course we could say that it's not Madara's will but the author wanted that the readers get an interesting fight, but if Madara started with a perfect susano right away then there wouldn't be any fight.

[sayde]

^^Do we know if he's got any other (significantly more powerful) techniques to resort to beyond perfect susano? Because the only good reason I could see him not using that instantly is because it's his trump card.

[Ero-Senn1n]

Originally Posted by sayde

^^Do we know if he's got any other (significantly more powerful) techniques to resort to beyond perfect susano? Because the only good reason I could see him not using that instantly is because it's his trump card.

He supposedly has mastered the use of rinnegan just like Nagato, and we saw him disposing of Naruto's rasenshuriken just like Pain did. He also could absorb any non-physical attack. So i guess he can do all 6 paths if he wanted to.
If he really has infinite chakra as a zombie then he should be able to use his perfect susano as much as he wants, so then it's not a "trump card" which he uses only when no other option is given. But who knows, it may be that Edo Tensei has also a weakness that Kabuto didn't know, i mean infinite chakra simply sounds too simple, even dumb. And if Madara knows about that then it would make sense that he doesn't want to overuse his perfect susano because it's too much risk for him.

[sayde]

Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n

If he really has infinite chakra as a zombie then he should be able to use his perfect susano as much as he wants, so then it's not a "trump card" which he uses only when no other option is given.

I guess our opinions on what makes a trump card a trump card might differ a little then. It never occurred to me to factor freedom of usage--or lack thereof--into it before. I've always just regarded the trump card as the last and most useful technique to fall back, even if that technique could be used infinitely. Though admittedly, that's typically not the case.

In other words, if someone were to actually find a way to counter perfect susano, he wouldn't have any other plausible techniques left that would be as effective (even with supposedly infinite chakra). With that said, it'd be hard to believe someone like Madara wouldn't have *something* else left to use in the unlikely event Susano fails. As you basically said, and now that I think about it, his mastery over the rinnegan must grant him other options that are just as (if not more) useful.

[Ero-Senn1n]

Originally Posted by sayde

I guess our opinions on what makes a trump card a trump card might differ a little then. It never occurred to me to factor freedom of usage--or lack thereof--into it before. I've always just regarded the trump card as the last and most useful technique to fall back, even if that technique could be used infinitely. Though admittedly, that's typically not the case.

If it can be used infinitely there's no point in not using it always. It's usually the strongest card you have in your hand, but you can use it only once. Or maybe more than once but the next time it's much less effective either because it was a secret (for example a secret jutsu or ability that once discovered the enemy can prepare to counter it).

Originally Posted by sayde

In other words, if someone were to actually find a way to counter perfect susano, he wouldn't have any other plausible techniques left that would be as effective (even with supposedly infinite chakra).

I think in this case it's the huge power of the jutsu that matters and not if it's secret. It's hard to believe anyone can find a strategy to deal with it, one has to power up to a level to deal with it. What i mean is that no matter how smart Kakashi or Shikamaru are they simply can't do anything if it's overwhelming power. For example Kakashi figured out a strategy against Pain and he even outsmarted Pain but he just could not win due to the huge gap between their power levels.

Originally Posted by sayde

his mastery over the rinnegan must grant him other options that are just as (if not more) useful.

He left all the stuff to Nagato and Obito, including the gedo mazo statue and the knowledge that's in the secret Uchiha scrolls. So he should have some more tricks If he turns out to be the final villain then he definitely will have to know many more tricks.

[sayde]

Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n

If it can be used infinitely there's no point in not using it always.

I just can't quite agree with that notion. I mean theoretically, if I had an ace up my sleeve, and it was the best trick I had going, I'd still be very hesitant to use it as a first resort, even if this trick was something I could spam indefinitely. And the reason for that rationale seems similar to something you stated later on in your most recent reply.

Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n

It's usually the strongest card you have in your hand, but you can use it only once. Or maybe more than once but the next time it's much less effective either because it was a secret (for example a secret jutsu or ability that once discovered the enemy can prepare to counter it).

^^The part I bolded was the rationale I was referring to. Needless to say, I agree with this since I did consider the possibility of perfect susano only being "perfect" because hardly anyone with enough intelligence and power has been afforded the opportunity necessary to discover any imperfections to exploit. Afterall, just witnessing the completed susano seems like an incredibly rare spectacle. So I do wonder if there's still a slim possibility for someone to find an easy solution to defeat the technique or if pure overwhelming power will be the only solution afterall (as you've predicted).

Beyond that, I pretty much agreed with everything else.

[Ero-Senn1n]

^
At some point Madara tells to the hokages that nobody ever lived who saw it. So going by that he can spam it because it still remains a secret since everybody who saw the jutsu has been killed

But i guess that's not the full reality since the 1st hokage won against Madara, so he had to witness that monstruosity and also defeat it. And since it has already been defeated i don't think that it will be the ultimate move of Madara, his ultimate jutsu should be something that not even the 1st hokage would be able to beat.

Originally Posted by sayde

I just can't quite agree with that notion. I mean theoretically, if I had an ace up my sleeve, and it was the best trick I had going, I'd still be very hesitant to use it as a first resort, even if this trick was something I could spam indefinitely. And the reason for that rationale seems similar to something you stated later on in your most recent reply.

Yeah, i understood what you meant, that's why i replied that in my opinion that move is not a "trick", it has no secret, it's simply so much powerful and "perfect" that it doesn't seem that revealing it would be a bad idea. Of course this would not be true if there were many people near Madara's power level, but currently we know of only one It's like having a gun in a sword fight, if you reveal it the next guy with a sword won't learn any good strategies, because there's simply no good strategy to beat a gun with a sword.

[itachi-san314]

Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n

It's like having a gun in a sword fight, if you reveal it the next guy with a sword won't learn any good strategies, because there's simply no good strategy to beat a gun with a sword.

unless it's in a shinichiro watanabe anime

but yea, i agree that perfect susano'o is a trump card, but it also wasn't used as a trump card imho. i think madara was just having fun as you said initially. he also wanted to try out the hashirama cells and wood element and then when he got bored with the kages he chose the quickest technique to destroy them so he could go see what obito was doing.

i'm sure madara has more up his sleeve, but so does perfect susano'o. we barely saw what it is capable of, so the next major fight madara has, he will assuredly use perfect susano'o and showcase all its abilities

[james0246]

The new thread has been started. Please move all relevant discussions to the new thread.

[StinkyKush]

LOL, "he only had the intel on their abilities recently but he already made such a smart strategy! Thats Shikamarus dad for you" NO shit! people from stone use earth, mist use water, cloud use lightning, leaf use fire, sand use wind.... EVERYONE knows that
The war has gotten brutal and has drastically lowered my ranking of Naruto and how good the manga is..
Also how can Naruto go into sage mode without even gathering any energy.. kind of stupid, or hell gather for 2 seconds