[Manga] Naruto Chapter 636 Discussion Thread

[Hunter]

Originally Posted by itachi-san314

i disagree. i think it could have made sense for madara and obito to have met the way they did if madara brought him to himself via zetsu on purpose. and if madara was wacthing him his whole life because he knew the kamui bloodline was within him. the happenstance surrounding their meeting was bad. i have no problem with kakashi being made relevant again.

I'm not talking about making sense, I'm talking about meaningful drama. About a revelation with a true impact on the story, the characters and the readers.
Obito as an identity cannot give any of that because he's not important -he's not even known- to anybody except one secondary character.
The reason I argued back when we didn't know for sure Tobi's identity that while it was increasingly certain that Tobi was Obito it'd be however incoherent, boring and pointless was exactly what we're witnessing now : so what if he's Kakashi's former friend? Many people cared about Tobi's identity but who care about Obito? No one.
This is the sad joke this character is become, he has never been more a nobody than since we know who he is.

i disagree here too. of course this is all matter of opinion, but i would have been massively let down if we never got to know tobi's identity. it wasn't some fun thing to me like kakashi's mask. it was a crucial enemy and key player in the story who's identity means something. or at least should have meant something. if the story ended without us ever knowing who he was it would have been ballsy and interesting, but over all lackluster since we would never have been able to relate to a nameless faceless supervillain. it would have been like doctor claw in inspector gadget. basically just a big nothing and not satisfying in any way. i'm not saying obito is satisfying. i'm disappointed in his story. im just saying he could have been good. at least in my opinion

My preference of the unnamed flag bearer of the sins of this world is evidently my opinion, it should go without saying. The notion that Tobi's character was built around his mystery however is a fact. Therefore when removing the shroud of secrecy surrounding such a character one should replace it with something of greater value or watch interest wanes.
In the story as it is there was no character whose revelation could exceed what already was and so it was best for Tobi's identity to remain an enigma or at the very least in doubt.

Originally Posted by Casshern

I'm confused about obito's ability. Why didn't he completely transfer himself to his dimension against konan instead of using izanagi? He could teleport to a far-off location and watch the explosions, then port back when they were finished.

There are two parts of Obito's form of Kamui, the actual teleportation and the phasing ability where only the physical property of his body is transported elsewhere. Those two abilities cannot be used at the same time.
While the phasing ability is virtually instant, the teleportation proper is only very fast. The goal of creating a trap where explosions were continuous over a long period of time was to create an environment where Obito had no choice but to keep his body phased without enough to time to stop and teleport elsewhere.

[Ero-Senn1n]

Originally Posted by itachi-san314

it was a crucial enemy and key player in the story who's identity means something. or at least should have meant something.

It does mean a lot. Obito was like Naruto, but he was completely messed up by the ninja system. Well that's what the author meant it to be in my opinion. Of course here's where he partially failed. Obito's words are what Kakashi tells us in the very beginning of the manga, it's his ideal vs the reality of the ninja system where ninja are considered to be "tools". Obito's will lived in Kakashi and then through him in Naruto. Kakashi's father died becuase his friends were more important to him than some orders. And there are countless other examples. For example Itachi was the opposite, his extreme loyalty to the village made him the mass murderer of his own clan. So i think Obito's identity in this war means a lot. But unfortunately there are too many plot holes around his new existence.

[itachi-san314]

^sure. i agree about that being the theme here. as you've said in the past though, it's also too much konoha and uchiha. it gets old. the 3 arch enemies of the war, orochimaru, itachi and all the good guys worth mentioning are all from konoha. it diminishes the war and the alliance to utter unimportance. this whole war might as well have been a konoha civil war. and it's too much uchiha. like someone said recently, the other village kages like muu should have been saved for now. at least something or someone from another (preferably all) the other villages would make this story more compelling as well. then it would be even more evident that the system was to blame and not just a chakra mutation in uchihas' brains =/ i think danzo was onto something after all

Originally Posted by Hunter

In the story as it is there was no character whose revelation could exceed what already was and so it was best for Tobi's identity to remain an enigma or at the very least in doubt.

that's probably true, but it's also impossible to know how it would have felt to have the series end with his identity still in doubt. i think that would have been worse, but of course, opinion. an interesting occurance would have been if obito had burned his face off so nobody would recognize him and losing the mask would have been fruitless. then like you said, we and the characters would have to deduce who he was even though he never admits it

[Casshern]

Originally Posted by Hunter

There are two parts of Obito's form of Kamui, the actual teleportation and the phasing ability where only the physical property of his body is transported elsewhere. Those two abilities cannot be used at the same time.
While the phasing ability is virtually instant, the teleportation proper is only very fast. The goal of creating a trap where explosions were continuous over a long period of time was to create an environment where Obito had no choice but to keep his body phased without enough to time to stop and teleport elsewhere.

Ah ok thanks for that

[james0246]

Originally Posted by itachi-san314

that's probably true, but it's also impossible to know how it would have felt to have the series end with his identity still in doubt. i think that would have been worse, but of course, opinion. an interesting occurrence would have been if obito had burned his face off so nobody would recognize him and losing the mask would have been fruitless. then like you said, we and the characters would have to deduce who he was even though he never admits it

It didn't have to be in doubt, it just had to not matter. Tobi should (could) have been a stand-in for all the ills of the shinobi system. With no true identity himself/herself, Tobi could have represented all that was wrong in the Narutoverse.

Instead Tobi is Obito, and as been mentioned repeatedly for years, Obito just isn't that interesting within the context of the characters or their stories.

I expect Minato will get at least a word in with Obito, but poor Tobi has been a bad boy so he's getting a time out pretty soon...

[itachi-san314]

Originally Posted by james0246

It didn't have to be in doubt, it just had to not matter. Tobi should (could) have been a stand-in for all the ills of the shinobi system. With no true identity himself/herself, Tobi could have represented all that was wrong in the Narutoverse.

but how can that be conveyed without tobi having a specific identity who got screwed by the ninja system? i dont think it's effective enough for him to be a nameless spokesperson for nihilism. i doubt readers could grasp a character who has no specific reason to want an end of the ninja system

Instead Tobi is Obito, and as been mentioned repeatedly for years, Obito just isn't that interesting within the context of the characters or their stories.

agreed, but my point has been that he could have been. i.e. him being madara's grandson or from a lineage known to have kamui. that would make him important to madara as being potentially powerful enough to carry on his will during the interim between his life and revival

I expect Minato will get at least a word in with Obito, but poor Tobi has been a bad boy so he's getting a time out pretty soon...

haha yea. he's been an emo boy. might as well start smoking cigarettes and listening to the cure...

[GDB]

Originally Posted by itachi-san314

but how can that be conveyed without tobi having a specific identity who got screwed by the ninja system? i dont think it's effective enough for him to be a nameless spokesperson for nihilism. i doubt readers could grasp a character who has no specific reason to want an end of the ninja system

I don't know, it seemed people grasped his intentions and goals better before his reveal than after.

[james0246]

Originally Posted by itachi-san314

but how can that be conveyed without tobi having a specific identity who got screwed by the ninja system? i dont think it's effective enough for him to be a nameless spokesperson for nihilism. i doubt readers could grasp a character who has no specific reason to want an end of the ninja system

Well, symbolically, his mask represented Tobi's intentions better than anything Obito has ever said or done. But, if you want something more factual, he could simply know a great deal of details concerning countless lost and fallen shinobi that have existed over-the-years. Imagine, for example, if instead of saying that he was Madara, Tobi had addressed each of the Kages as a lost former friend or comrade, knowing personal details and information that only someone close could know; imagine if Tobi was Dan, but also Oonoki's son, and A's father, and countless other lost friends and family - and this wouldn't even be that hard considering the Zetsu goo can perfectly replicate someone, and there is probably a nifty Sharingan genjutsu Kishimoto could have developed that would allow the user to copy memories or some such nonsense. Such an occurrence, would have been far more unsettling and creepy not to mention evocative than anything Obito has said or done. To have someone you once knew criticizing you, addressing your flaws and weaknesses, pointing out the horrors of the very political systems you lead and control, would be debilitating, but to have that same character do that for everyone in a unique and different voice would have been monstrous. (This, of course, is just one of many different ways Tobi could have been used to represent everyone that the system has screwed over.)

Or, he could simply say that he is no-one (which, hey, he did...until he didn't), and leave it at that. It wouldn't have been a plot hole if Tobi was never revealed, it would have only been a defining characteristic for the character. Sometimes that idea is more important than the actual man/women, and in this case the idea of Tobi is clearly more important, and interesting, than the actual man.

[itachi-san314]

^That's only because obito's story sucks. obito could have literally done all that if he wanted with zetsu knowledge. and he already had a voice alteration thing going on so it wouldn't have been out of the blue. i really think you guys are just getting caught up in thinking tobi should be no one since obito sucked. what if orochimaru or itachi or madara or whichever character you like sucked? should they have not existed then as well? pain represented an ideal. should he have stayed in the shadows? my answer would be no. i much prefer knowing who pain was and it just so happens that nagato was interesting. same thing here. obito could have been interesting. he could have spent his time doing exactly what you said in your post and reviewing zetsu footage of all those people who got screwed over by the ninja system to bolster his decision

[GDB]

Except being nameless would've actually accented what he represented. As it is, it's a brat throwing a temper tantrum because the girl he liked died.

[itachi-san314]

Originally Posted by GDB

Except being nameless would've actually accented what he represented. As it is, it's a brat throwing a temper tantrum because the girl he liked died.

couldn't the exact same thing be said about pain? he represented a nameless ideal from the shadows as well

[Hunter]

Originally Posted by james0246

Well, symbolically, his mask represented Tobi's intentions better than anything Obito has ever said or done. But, if you want something more factual, he could simply know a great deal of details concerning countless lost and fallen shinobi that have existed over-the-years. Imagine, for example, if instead of saying that he was Madara, Tobi had addressed each of the Kages as a lost former friend or comrade, knowing personal details and information that only someone close could know; imagine if Tobi was Dan, but also Oonoki's son, and A's father, and countless other lost friends and family - and this wouldn't even be that hard considering the Zetsu goo can perfectly replicate someone, and there is probably a nifty Sharingan genjutsu Kishimoto could have developed that would allow the user to copy memories or some such nonsense. Such an occurrence, would have been far more unsettling and creepy not to mention evocative than anything Obito has said or done. To have someone you once knew criticizing you, addressing your flaws and weaknesses, pointing out the horrors of the very political systems you lead and control, would be debilitating, but to have that same character do that for everyone in a unique and different voice would have been monstrous. (This, of course, is just one of many different ways Tobi could have been used to represent everyone that the system has screwed over.)

Additionally there are a lot of things that could be done with this to create a relationship between Tobi and Naruto. Change the (terrible) encounter between Tobi and Minato and make use of the discarded fact that Zetsu devoured the corpses of the fallen and it'd open the door to some actual drama. Hell, make it so that Kushina had had twin and only Naruto got away and you can do a more tragic take on the "dark Naruto" idea and his desperate need for a family.

Originally Posted by itachi-san314

That's only because obito's story sucks. obito could have literally done all that if he wanted with zetsu knowledge. and he already had a voice alteration thing going on so it wouldn't have been out of the blue. i really think you guys are just getting caught up in thinking tobi should be no one since obito sucked.

Tobi being an amalgamation of personalities/memories/not someone real/etc. are theories that were discussed for years, way before we finally got to know and regret knowing Obito.
What we're saying goes deeper than the fact that Obito sucks, it's about the fact that he adds no value to Tobi regardless of what you write about him. You say that Madara could have sought Obito specifically as if that'd change anything. Obito could be the great grandson Madara had after cuckolding Hashirama with Mito and that wouldn't add a thing to what Tobi represented. It's in fact quite the opposite, the more you cram into his personality the more you divert attention from the ideology.

what if orochimaru or itachi or madara or whichever character you like sucked? should they have not existed then as well?

Yes? Is it a trick question?
If a character is so badly written that it lessens the story then of course the tale would be better off without him.

Originally Posted by itachi-san314

couldn't the exact same thing be said about pain? he represented a nameless ideal from the shadows as well

We knew next to nothing (less than nothing if you think about it) about Pain before his introduction so there is no real comparison but I think the character would have been better off without most of his flashback.

[itachi-san314]

Originally Posted by Hunter

Yes? Is it a trick question?
If a character is so badly written that it lessens the story then of course the tale would be better off without him.

haha! yea i didnt word that the way i intended it to sound. you've basically answered what i meant, but i could stretch it to say something like: isn't it worth trying an identity? it's true obito turned out to be a bad character, but not every character in a long manga like this is going to be amazing and well written. that may be an impossible request. are there any mangas this long where it's widely agreed that all the characters are great? i doubt it but i also dont know of course. i'm just saying that kishi tried with obito and failed, but i appreciate the attempt as opposed to not getting an identity ever. like i said, i for one, think obito could have been a good character

[Moeterum]

No chapter this week?

[james0246]

Originally Posted by Moeterum

No chapter this week?

Spoilers for Naruto are generally not released until early Wednesday morning (US time). So, there's still quite a bit of time until you need to worry about whether a chapter will be spoiled or not...

[Monster0]

Obito,Tobito,Tobi,or nobody.

Obito just might be one of the greatest characters in comic history.He has caused more controversy then the death of superman.Good character, bad character, is he important ?no he doesn't even need to be there.Like it or not more people are talking about him then anything else going on in manga or even in U.S. comics(I hate separating two things that are the same thing).

But everything about Obito makes perfect sense.You have to look back at a few episodes,even as far back as volume one and two.I certainly don't want to write any explaining crap.But i can see how linear thinking people can get a bit frustrated.That might not be a good thing for something trying to reach a wide audience.

[Ero-Senn1n]

Originally Posted by Monster0

But i can see how linear thinking people can get a bit frustrated.

Just a minor mistake: i guess you meant logical thinking people

Let's say i like the idea of Obito being Tobi and every aspect of it, be it his Madara behavior or his random changes in skill and power. But if that's true then for the next arc i would like to see the big revelation that the Ramen Guy is behind all this. He hates all the ninja, his life was ruined when he discovered that his son had ice element bloodline power, in his rage he killed his wife but then his son almost killed him, his name was Haku. He slowly recovered from the wounds that Haku made and discovered that his son is now a subordinate of a criminal ninja and they are comiting serious crimes. He witnessed the big ninja fight at the Naruto bridge and decided that some day he will take control of Naruto. He also poisoned Itachi, remember the time when Kisame and Itachi were eating in Konoha. He also weakened Jiraiya the day before he fought Pain when he was drinking sake with Tsunade. Also he was the one who sold the vegetables to the old Frog Ma' before she summoned Naruto to fight Pain, it was then that he delayed her using the trick of discounts on carrot.

[GDB]

Originally Posted by Monster0

Obito,Tobito,Tobi,or nobody.

Obito just might be one of the greatest characters in comic history.He has caused more controversy then the death of superman.Good character, bad character, is he important ?no he doesn't even need to be there.Like it or not more people are talking about him then anything else going on in manga or even in U.S. comics(I hate separating two things that are the same thing).

I don't see how "talking about him" is a good thing, when people should be talking about the actual events in the manga. That's the mark of terrible writing, and that's not good. I also don't see why you would bring up other manga or comics here. This is the Naruto subforum. People aren't going to be making topics on Spider-Ock here or anything.

But everything about Obito makes perfect sense.You have to look back at a few episodes,even as far back as volume one and two.I certainly don't want to write any explaining crap.

...What? So you tell people to re-read the whole manga and it'll make sense, but then refuse to explain at all? Troll, much?

[itachi-san314]

Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n

But if that's true then for the next arc i would like to see the big revelation that the Ramen Guy is behind all this.

great, another villain from konoha but seriously, ramen guy is the aizen of naruto. he really is behind everything. he's just so good that we'll never know

[james0246]

I've created the Chapter 637 discussion thread. Please move all relevant discussions to the new thread.