Gundam Seed/Seed Destiny General Discussion Thread

[Obelisk ze Tormentor]

Originally Posted by Rising Dragon

Overall, Athrun just seems to do better in a non-variable suit like the Justice, like he's more familiar with it.

I would argue that he is equally good in both Aegis and Justice. It’s just, during his piloting Aegis, Athrun was hindered by his feelings when fighting Kira (until he killed Nicol), while during his piloting Justice, he has no personal attachment to his druggists opponents and EA in general.

[monster]

Originally Posted by Aquaman OS

He fought the Murasame's very halfassed though. He tried to disable them Kira style, but couldn't really pull it off all that well.

Um, what? Athrun did it as easily as Kira.

Obviously he was holding back, and it affected his performance.

That doesn't explain his performance against the Chaos and the Freedom.

As far as fighting Freedom, again once Kira pointed out very clearly that he was essentially being their enemy and going against Cagalli's interests, Athrun basically folded, and put up little resistance as Kira tore him apart (his only option at that range would have been to fire his cannons anyway, which would have killed Kira, something he obviously wouldn't do ).

Um, I'm talking about all of his interference leading up to that point. And beside, I don't think you can say that Athrun was holding back. Kira simply outmaneuvered him with the second beam saber.

Before that he was only banging their sabers together and firing near misses while yelling at Kira to leave. Obviously he wasn't trying to seriously hurt him.

And yet, that's more than what Athrun did against the Chaos.

Sting even had to yell at Athrun for running away and yet here he is being aggressive and actually chasing Kira.

Although after rewatching his earlier battle with Sting during Junius Seven, aside from destroying his Gunpods, which he seemed to do by taking Sting by surprise, with his skill level, they were evenly matched until he and Yzak started double teaming him. Maybe Sting really was that good enough to stalemate Athrun.

Well, one of my initial points was that double teaming was an advantage. That's one of the main reasons why the Biological CPUs did better than the Extendeds on Earth.

[Rising Dragon]

Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor

I would argue that he is equally good in both Aegis and Justice. It’s just, during his piloting Aegis, Athrun was hindered by his feelings when fighting Kira (until he killed Nicol), while during his piloting Justice, he has no personal attachment to his druggists opponents and EA in general.

Athrun still had hesitance and wavering feelings when he first piloted the Justice in battle, which seemed to have persisted past that battle up until the next fight. He still managed to do far better against his enemies with the Justice than he had against the Strike.

[monster]

Originally Posted by Rising Dragon

He still managed to do far better against his enemies with the Justice than he had against the Strike.

Are you really going to blame this on the Aegis being a transformable mobile suit?

[Obelisk ze Tormentor]

Originally Posted by Rising Dragon

Athrun still had hesitance and wavering feelings when he first piloted the Justice in battle, which seemed to have persisted past that battle up until the next fight. He still managed to do far better against his enemies with the Justice than he had against the Strike.

Hmm...but during Justice, his hesitance and wavering feelings are not directly towards his druggists and EA opponents, unlike during Aegis when he fought Strike piloted by his best-friend. That's why he can put his and Justice's ability to the max when he fought the druggists and EA despite his wavering feelings for going against ZAFT ruled by his father.

[Aquaman OS]

Keep in mind Justice and IJ are much more powerful than most mobile suits. As is the Freedom's. In fact if you're wondering why Kira was able to break his guard so easily once he decided Athrun had to go down, that's likely why. Even though it was older, Freedom was still far superior to even the 2nd stage Zaft Gundams. That's also why Kira is able to easily trash Sting that one time. He's right behind him before Sting's even finished turning around and slices him up.

[monster]

Originally Posted by Aquaman OS

Keep in mind Justice and IJ are much more powerful than most mobile suits. As is the Freedom's. In fact if you're wondering why Kira was able to break his guard so easily once he decided Athrun had to go down, that's likely why. Even though it was older, Freedom was still far superior to even the 2nd stage Zaft Gundams.

Keep in mind that Kira only used the Freedom's beam sabers to defeat both the Chaos and the Saviour. There is no evidence that the Freedom's beam sabers are more powerful than any other beam sabers, including the ones that the Saviour has.

In fact, rewatching the scene between the Freedom and the Saviour, here's what I see:

1. The Saviour blocked the Freedom's beam saber with its shield.
2. The Saviour pushed the Freedom's right arm with its shield and took an upward swing with its own beam saber on its right arm.
3. The Freedom ducked under the Saviour's swing and took its own upward swing with its second beam saber on the Saviour's right arm while it was still at the end of its swing arc.

That's also why Kira is able to easily trash Sting that one time. He's right behind him before Sting's even finished turning around and slices him up.

Actually, the Chaos finished its turn before the Freedom appeared in front of him. And that's not really something special as the Chaos actually charged at them.

In fact, there's no reason why the Saviour couldn't do the same thing if Athrun hadn't just used it to run around but actually get close just as he ended up doing against the Freedom.

[Aquaman OS]

Freedom is faster than both. It's stated at least once that Freedom is the strongest and fastest MS prior to the Destiny and Legend being rolled out, and is reflected in the official tech specs. Kira beat Athrun because Freedom was faster on the reaction time as seen when he ducks and pulls out the second saber, and Freedom was able to get the drop on Chaos faster than Savior seemingly could. Sting always kept his distance as well, so Athrun could never get into melee range so quickly as Freedom could.

[monster]

Originally Posted by Aquaman OS

Freedom is faster than both. It's stated at least once that Freedom is the strongest and fastest MS prior to the Destiny and Legend being rolled out, and is reflected in the official tech specs.

First of all, the Freedom is fast, but not insurmountably faster as the Force Impulse could keep up with it in phase 34. Second of all, that's talking about thruster speed, not limb speed. Mobile suits like the Forbidden and the Blast Impulse have dodged the Freedom's swings.

Kira beat Athrun because Freedom was faster on the reaction time as seen when he ducks and pulls out the second saber,

Kira beat Athrun because Kira made the wiser moves in that encounter.

and Freedom was able to get the drop on Chaos faster than Savior seemingly could. Sting always kept his distance as well, so Athrun could never get into melee range so quickly as Freedom could.

Again, Athrun was the one who kept his distance. Sting was yelling at him to fight.

And once again, while Athrun made no move against Sting, Kira got in close and actually tried to and succeeded in doing something about the Chaos.

[Aquaman OS]

Actually for all Sting's taunts, he never tried to go for Athrun with his sabers either, and in fact he ran away from Athrun at least once. All of their fights were both of them keeping their distance and dogfighting with beam rifles (and at least one Athrun was actually aggressively raining rifle and cannon blasts that he could barely dodge) The time Sting was yelling at him not to run away was when he was chasing Athrun with two Murasames's as back up. Running away is actually advisable in the position, expecially since Athrun was refusing to killshot Murasame's.

He never tried to get the drop on him like Kira did, but again, Freedom is quickly on the fly than Savior so Athrun might not have wanted to risk it.

[monster]

Originally Posted by Aquaman OS

Actually for all Sting's taunts, he never tried to go for Athrun with his sabers either,

How can Sting when Athrun kept running away?

and in fact he ran away from Athrun at least once.

And how many times did Athrun run away? I'm pretty sure many more times than Sting.

All of their fights were both of them keeping their distance and dogfighting with beam rifles

Keep in mind that the Saviour, being more suited for aerial combat, has more control of the range than the Chaos. So if they're dogfighting with beam rifles, it would be more because Athrun made it so rather than Sting. We're talking about a pilot who used beam sabers freely with the Aegis, Justice, and Infinite Justice. And yet, he never used it with the Saviour against the Chaos.

(and at least one Athrun was actually aggressively raining rifle and cannon blasts that he could barely dodge)

That only proved that Athrun could've done well against the Chaos. And yet, he never followed through with it.

The time Sting was yelling at him not to run away was when he was chasing Athrun with two Murasames's as back up. Running away is actually advisable in the position, expecially since Athrun was refusing to killshot Murasame's.

Sting yelled at Athrun again later that episode on his own after Athrun took shots at a couple of Murasames.

In fact, all Athrun really did against the Chaos was take a couple of shots and run away and repeat.

He never tried to get the drop on him like Kira did, but again, Freedom is quickly on the fly than Savior so Athrun might not have wanted to risk it.

The Saviour was quick too. It's made for aerial combat.

[kaito-kid]

Originally Posted by Aquaman OS

He was pretty much doing the same thing he did in battles with the original druggies. Tying them up and wasting their time, keeping them away from their allies, and such. It was different in Junis Seven when their was little time and Sting needed to go then and there.

The 1st gen CPU's were on a similar skill level with Kira and Athrun (or at least closer then the 2nd gen). It was believable when they fought on equal footing. Keep in mind that Kira and Athrun did actually win both fights in Orb and wasting time was an effective way to win the fights as Clotho, Shani and Orga had limited operation time. That is not the case with Athrun and Sting in Destiny.

Originally Posted by monster

By the way, does the Freedom have a longer attack range than most? Kira was able to fire at the GINN's rifle at Alaska, the Minerva's cannon, and the Murasame at Crete without setting off anyone's sensor.

It's a secondary effect of the NJC. Other than canceling the N-Jammer and enabling the Nuclear reactor, it also weakens the effects of the N-Jammer on a larger scale and that improves the mobile suits range greatly, the multi targeting system especially would be a lot less effective without the NJC.

btw, he did set off Minerva's sensor, but he was just too fast. I'm guessing battleships have much better sensors despite the lack of a NJC.

[monster]

Originally Posted by kaito-kid

It's a secondary effect of the NJC. Other than canceling the N-Jammer and enabling the Nuclear reactor, it also weakens the effects of the N-Jammer on a larger scale and that improves the mobile suits range greatly, the multi targeting system especially would be a lot less effective without the NJC.

Ooh, I forgot about the NJC, but it's supposed to have a much shorter range of effect than the N-Jammer; I believe just enough for the near vicinity of the mobile suit itself.

Beside, even if it could extend its range of effect beyond the mobile suit, I don't see how it would improve the sensor/attack range for the mobile suit without doing the same thing to anyone else within its range.

btw, he did set off Minerva's sensor, but he was just too fast. I'm guessing battleships have much better sensors despite the lack of a NJC.

I don't see anything in phase 22 and phase 23 that would indicate this and, in phase 28, Arthur was notifying Talia of the incoming Murasame squad, not the Freedom.

Ah, were you talking about phase 42? Yeah, that's a weird exception in contrast to the previous incidents, unless it's because the Strike Freedom and the Infinite Justice together just stick out on anybody's sensor.

[kaito-kid]

Originally Posted by monster

Beside, even if it could extend its range of effect beyond the mobile suit, I don't see how it would improve the sensor/attack range for the mobile suit without doing the same thing to anyone else within its range.

I don't know much about radar tech, so have no idea.. Maybe because of the N-Jammer all the MS in CE71 have weaker radars, as there there is no point in building stronger once. Or maybe the OS can not work with the temporary increase in range caused by a moving NJC. Who knows..

Originally Posted by monster

and in phase 28, Arthur was notifying Talia of the incoming Murasame squad, not the Freedom.

Didn't the alarm go off in the background? :/ At least the ship did detect something.
Or are you asking why they didn't immediately identify it as the Freedom?

[monster]

Originally Posted by kaito-kid

I don't know much about radar tech, so have no idea.. Maybe because of the N-Jammer all the MS in CE71 have weaker radars, as there there is no point in building stronger once. Or maybe the OS can not work with the temporary increase in range caused by a moving NJC. Who knows..

Indeed...

Didn't the alarm go off in the background? :/ At least the ship did detect something.

There was no alarm.

Or are you asking why they didn't immediately identify it as the Freedom?

No, I'm asking why it's not like in phase 42, when the Minerva officer was at least able to detect the Strike Freedom and the Infinite Justice as an incoming object from space, even if he couldn't identify it.

But in phase 34 of SEED and phase 22/23 and 28 of Destiny, the Freedom was able to be in attack range without anyone knowing it's there.

Now that I think about it, the Justice was even more impressive as it actually got right in between people battling in SEED without anyone noticing.

[Obelisk ze Tormentor]

Originally Posted by monster

Now that I think about it, the Justice was even more impressive as it actually got right in between people battling in SEED without anyone noticing.

There's a technical explanation for it. It's called "the cool factor".

[monster]

Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor

There's a technical explanation for it. It's called "the cool factor".

Ouch, it's so technical, that explanation went over my head.

[kaito-kid]

Originally Posted by monster

There was no alarm.

... I swear something was going off at somepoint. plz don't make me go watch Destiny again..

Originally Posted by monster

Ooh, I forgot about the NJC, but it's supposed to have a much shorter range of effect than the N-Jammer; I believe just enough for the near vicinity of the mobile suit itself.

Again we can only speculate, but maybe we have to look at this differently? Maybe the NJC field isn't like a bubble that barely covers the MS, but more like a fog(?) that's very dense in the center, allowing nuclear fission to happen, and from there gradually wears off covering a great distance, canceling the radio waves disrupting side effect of the N-Jammer.


As for your other points, I guess we can make sense of it if we try a little harder, but I don't want to defend all of Fukuda's bulls*it.. I don't know who wrote all the technical stuff in Seed and Destiny, but it sure as hell ain't him.

[Obelisk ze Tormentor]

Originally Posted by monster

Ouch, it's so technical, that explanation went over my head.

That or those people from EA/EF, Orb and Archangel just too busy fighting each other they forgot to look at their radars or other detection tools. Thus, Justice can just tip-toeing through their defenses and, voila! It’s your usual “Las Vegas magic”

[monster]

Originally Posted by kaito-kid

... I swear something was going off at somepoint. plz don't make me go watch Destiny again..

Don't worry, I just watched it to confirm that there was no alarm.

Again we can only speculate, but maybe we have to look at this differently? Maybe the NJC field isn't like a bubble that barely covers the MS, but more like a fog(?) that's very dense in the center, allowing nuclear fission to happen, and from there gradually wears off covering a great distance, canceling the radio waves disrupting side effect of the N-Jammer.

Well, the thing is, as I said, even if that's the way it works, there's no way to cancel the effect only for the Freedom. Whatever distance it covers, it will cancel the effect for all sensors and communication devices within range.

As for your other points, I guess we can make sense of it if we try a little harder, but I don't want to defend all of Fukuda's bulls*it.. I don't know who wrote all the technical stuff in Seed and Destiny, but it sure as hell ain't him.

It's harder only because of phase 42.

Unless...

Originally Posted by Obelisk ze Tormentor

That or those people from EA/EF, Orb and Archangel just too busy fighting each other they forgot to look at their radars or other detection tools. Thus, Justice can just tip-toeing through their defenses and, voila! It’s your usual “Las Vegas magic”

Huh, that might be possible.

Seeing as how the sensors don't necessarily identify anything beyond their presence depending on their distance, the Freedom/Justice could be initially mistaken as just another combatant who's too far away to worry about until it suddenly swoops in on you.

With the Strike Freedom/Infinite Justice entrance, the Minerva wasn't in the front lines at the time and they were specifically watching out for aerial attacks, so I guess it wouldn't be unusual then for that officer to notice an object coming from space.