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Old Yesterday, 16:28   Link #141
BWTraveller
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stray View Post
I haven't actually budged from legal insanity. You're the one who wants me to sign off on your flexible definition here.
You're the one that started getting at people for calling him insane because it doesn't match your definition of insanity. We were talking about something different and you just suddenly rebuked us for suggesting something we weren't even suggesting.

As for the redemption thing I mentioned, I didn't really mean to suggest happiness in slavery if that's the problem, rather just a desire to not go back to who and what they were before. And frankly, I don't think it'd work or be at all satisfactory unless at least one of the people involved had a breakdown, rejecting the whole thing. Flare could scream and fight over different sides that want to take vengeance on Keyaru for the months/years of slavery and to continue to separate themselves from a past self that they have grown to hate. Keyaru could break down because his victims have somehow found a way to respond with something besides rage, pain, fear and hate. For any kind of redemption to be even remotely acceptable a very serious price has to be paid. I'd say Flare is already in the promise of some degree of payment, but I definitely would want Keyaru to have problems letting his hate go, and to suffer at least to some degree for that.

And VDZ, I'm sorry if I came across as suggesting that Keyaru was justified. In my book there's no such thing as justified revenge. As I'd said, I can feel some satisfaction in seeing an awful person suffering, but that doesn't make the person causing the suffering any less awful. In my opinion, the "hero" and all his victims are awful, and as I said, I'd be strongly opposed to anyone who said that any of them was "less awful" than another.

Last edited by BWTraveller; Yesterday at 16:41.
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Old Yesterday, 17:26   Link #142
Blueknight78
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Originally Posted by VDZ View Post
Again, not saying Flare is innocent, she is absolutely a terrible person. But implying that Flare's actions and intentions are significantly worse than Keyaru's would make Keyaru arguably justified in his actions so far. (Though I still think people are overlooking the fact that he just straight up murdered two people too much just because it didn't get as much story focus.) If Keyaru can be argued to be justified in his intentions and actions, he could reasonably be argued to not be evil. Someone who takes justified revenge against those who deserve it is not a villain but a hero, and so far Keyaru has not done anything other than taking revenge against those who wronged him. And some people do seem to be implying that Keyaru is not wrong in his actions. This is why it's important to acknowledge that Keyaru's revenge goes way beyond what is justified. If it doesn't, Keyaru is arguably a hero, or at worst not a villain.
those 2 peoples which you are trying to again "acting like being innocent of victims, remember they also raped and torted him too, they also where "soldiers, part of her personal body guard which means they where ready to kill or be killed, this was a situation where him could also be killed by then, also i'm pretty sure those "2 peoples" already killed others peoples aswell.

again the mc only raped her a single time while himself was raped 6 months if we don't count the first reset and not only raped but again humiliated tortured and others stuffs which i can't say which will be expoiler for next episode and maybe some others stuffs, but she allowed him suffer and even goes to watch as him get tortured and raped, all over her "orders" she never denied anyone to do anything to him and even ordered peoples go for him to get powerup, we put in a balance the ammount of "suffer" he received compared with what he did to her, well you know... it not gonna be fair, if we put let's say in a court both of then will de deemed guilty but which one you thing get the worst punishment????? and again while he killed 2 peoples without any spoilers just based on what we watched i'm pretty sure she alone could had killed much more peoples than him and not only enemies but anyone she feel wanting.

the thing is while both are monsters the difference is which she did much more horrible stuffs until this point than what he did and not only to him but to others peoples aswell and almost everything he did she somehow or did aswell or ordered someone to do for her which already is enough to put the same weight on her sholder.


The point is trying to protect her and make it's looks like what he current did was "the same as what she did" is wrong because while his actions are indeed terrible and passive of punishment by no means when comes to "ammount" it comes close to her, without again count the fact which what he is now is full her fault, his current state is her full fault while his current self is a monster he still in a part "a victim" of all the crap they throwed at him, but this don't means which also being a victim make what he is doing "something to easy forgive" or give a pass, but he still was a victim too before he goes crazy.

is so hard to understand that??, both are monster and he will do more bad stuffs for sure but what he currently did still low compared with what he suffered and what those peoples did not only to him but others peoples aswell, while for me "evil still evil, i can accept the concept of "less or more evil", i belive in both quality and ammount when comes of evil when comes to judging peoples, like a single chicken robber which robbed hundreds or chickens still a "less evil" than a guy which let's say cleaned your house full from all the stuffs, or if we going for edge, a guy which kiled a single person for the first time most of the times have a big chance to get a smaller punishment than let's say a mass muderer, or genocide, ofcourse it will based on each country and culture, some places both can get a death penal in others only the second while the first can go from a long time inside the prision for forever being jailed, ofcourse others stuffs matter like reason, without count at last for me the fact which he is only doing it for "evil peoples" which normally would diservers at best a death penal and not "everyone" like a full psychopat he is focused on the peoples for his revenge "not the whole world", or anyone which appear in his path. again compared with the castle he still have some "moral ground"s which they clear don't have.

what really make me feel weird is peoples show compassion over her while at other hand acting like he aways was a monster and what he did not was with some "reason" or even some justification, which again don't means which what he did was right, being justified by his action not automatically means which what he did was right, just means which he had a reason and a good one to do it and some peoples could had did in his place but it don't remove his guilty or make him anything better just means which he had a reason to do that, if you can understand ""flare" and her actions which was worse than him why you can't understand the mc?? because he is a guy????, BWTraveller told if we reversed the stuffs and he was a girl and flare was a guy peoples could still having the same reaction????
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Last edited by Blueknight78; Yesterday at 17:42.
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Old Yesterday, 18:54   Link #143
VDZ
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Originally Posted by Blueknight78 View Post
what really make me feel weird is peoples show compassion over her while at other hand acting like he aways was a monster and what he did not was with some "reason" or even some justification, which again don't means which what he did was right, being justified by his action not automatically means which what he did was right, just means which he had a reason and a good one to do it and some peoples could had did in his place but it don't remove his guilty or make him anything better just means which he had a reason to do that
He had a reason to murder her there and then, at the final battle. Perhaps in the brief moment he got his chance, he could've made her suffer before she died due to his emotions in the moment; that too would have been understandable. But what reason did he have to travel back in time, much less scheme for 1.5 years to maximize his victims' suffering?

Flare's sin is completely disregarding Keyaru's humanity, completely not caring about him as he was forced to suffer to meet her practical needs. (Remember: She commanded them to drug and lock up Keyaru if needed so he would do his job when necessary, not because she simply wanted him to suffer. She just didn't care about his suffering.)

Keyaru, on the other hand, has nothing to gain by traveling back in time to get his revenge. In doing so, he 'revived' two of his enemies (who died in the original timeline), and he even had to endure six months of abuse. The outcome was only negative for him. He did all of this out of sheer malice to make others suffer.

Flare was doing whatever was beneficial for her, and Keyaru was just collateral damage in that. She was 'merely' heartless; any suffering she caused was in pursuit of self-interest. Keyaru, on the other hand, did things that made him suffer more just so others would also suffer more. He is actively malicious; suffering is not a side effect, but the entire purpose of his actions. One can be reasoned with, and the suffering caused by her could be reduced if she has an equally attractive alternative to reach her goals. The other is pure malice, and will attempt to cause maximum suffering no matter what. How can the latter ever be less evil than the former?


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Originally Posted by Blueknight78 View Post
BWTraveller told if we reversed the stuffs and he was a girl and flare was a guy peoples could still having the same reaction????
Yes, definitely. Pure malice can never be less evil than anything else.
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Old Yesterday, 20:14   Link #144
stray
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Originally Posted by BWTraveller View Post
You're the one that started getting at people for calling him insane because it doesn't match your definition of insanity. We were talking about something different and you just suddenly rebuked us for suggesting something we weren't even suggesting.
My definition has a Wikipedia page; you're defending hyperbole as far as I can tell. But whatever.

Your redemption scenario sort of implies the "ends justify the means" which is really iffy I think. And we still haven't even met the rest of the harem/party.
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Old Yesterday, 21:12   Link #145
LG-MAX 2.o
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Originally Posted by VDZ View Post
He had a reason to murder her there and then, at the final battle. Perhaps in the brief moment he got his chance, he could've made her suffer before she died due to his emotions in the moment; that too would have been understandable. But what reason did he have to travel back in time, much less scheme for 1.5 years to maximize his victims' suffering?

Flare's sin is completely disregarding Keyaru's humanity, completely not caring about him as he was forced to suffer to meet her practical needs. (Remember: She commanded them to drug and lock up Keyaru if needed so he would do his job when necessary, not because she simply wanted him to suffer. She just didn't care about his suffering.)

Keyaru, on the other hand, has nothing to gain by traveling back in time to get his revenge. In doing so, he 'revived' two of his enemies (who died in the original timeline), and he even had to endure six months of abuse. The outcome was only negative for him. He did all of this out of sheer malice to make others suffer.

Flare was doing whatever was beneficial for her, and Keyaru was just collateral damage in that. She was 'merely' heartless; any suffering she caused was in pursuit of self-interest. Keyaru, on the other hand, did things that made him suffer more just so others would also suffer more. He is actively malicious; suffering is not a side effect, but the entire purpose of his actions. One can be reasoned with, and the suffering caused by her could be reduced if she has an equally attractive alternative to reach her goals. The other is pure malice, and will attempt to cause maximum suffering no matter what. How can the latter ever be less evil than the former?




Yes, definitely. Pure malice can never be less evil than anything else.
I really don't understand all the problematization. Keyaru suffered abuse for several years in a world where he didn't have twitter to share his experiences, much less had psychological counseling to overcome the trauma or someone to ask for help in a kingdom where almost everyone is a rapist. So he came to the conclusion that he wants revenge, but not just killing, he wants to kill every one of them who hurt him, while having fun in the way that is just more fun for him. End


I don't know if you're trying to force people to send you private messages with spoilers, but at least in the manga a lot of your questions are answered in the course of the story, like the reason for keeping Flare alive, so it's not better to wait than treat this as something that has already ended with several plot holes?

We are still in the second episode ...
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Old Yesterday, 21:27   Link #146
BWTraveller
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Originally Posted by stray View Post
My definition has a Wikipedia page; you're defending hyperbole as far as I can tell. But whatever.

Your redemption scenario sort of implies the "ends justify the means" which is really iffy I think. And we still haven't even met the rest of the harem/party.
Actually, your definition comes from the Wikipedia page on a legal defense, while mine comes from the description on the generic Insanity article.

How do you get an "ends justifies the means" from my suggestion? I'm not saying anyone "succeeds". But a dark story has to go somewhere, and while it most certainly could just keep going deeper until everyone dies, I think that it would be interesting to see a conflicting psyche dealing with the fact that she hates what was done to her but she was indeed happier. This wouldn't directly suggest that raping her and turning her into a sex slave was beneficial to her, only that losing her memory and gaining freedom from her past was. And again, I'd be much more interested in seeing Keyaru collapse in shock at the fact that his plan failed, as it did not result in a full breakdown. Anyway, I never said it was perfect, just that I thought it would be interesting. If done really well it might result in a satisfying ending, but it could definitely be an interesting read.
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Old Today, 10:10   Link #147
Kuroageha
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Yeah let's ignore the poor demon Lord who pulled Keyaru's heart strings before dying.
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Old Today, 11:10   Link #148
Blueknight78
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Originally Posted by VDZ View Post
He had a reason to murder her there and then, at the final battle. Perhaps in the brief moment he got his chance, he could've made her suffer before she died due to his emotions in the moment; that too would have been understandable. But what reason did he have to travel back in time, much less scheme for 1.5 years to maximize his victims' suffering?

Flare's sin is completely disregarding Keyaru's humanity, completely not caring about him as he was forced to suffer to meet her practical needs. (Remember: She commanded them to drug and lock up Keyaru if needed so he would do his job when necessary, not because she simply wanted him to suffer. She just didn't care about his suffering.)

Keyaru, on the other hand, has nothing to gain by traveling back in time to get his revenge. In doing so, he 'revived' two of his enemies (who died in the original timeline), and he even had to endure six months of abuse. The outcome was only negative for him. He did all of this out of sheer malice to make others suffer.

Flare was doing whatever was beneficial for her, and Keyaru was just collateral damage in that. She was 'merely' heartless; any suffering she caused was in pursuit of self-interest. Keyaru, on the other hand, did things that made him suffer more just so others would also suffer more. He is actively malicious; suffering is not a side effect, but the entire purpose of his actions. One can be reasoned with, and the suffering caused by her could be reduced if she has an equally attractive alternative to reach her goals. The other is pure malice, and will attempt to cause maximum suffering no matter what. How can the latter ever be less evil than the former?
what part of him being mentaly broken you are "forgeting"? crazy peoples like that have that issue to not proper rationalise and only focus on they source of desire which in this case was his revenge, also you are again keep ignoring which even "before" what he did after the six months, he was still a "victim" even if him allowed to suffer again for six month, this don't changes the fact which "she did" and allowed others do horrible things to him during those six months where he "did nothing to diservers it" than just being her "tool" to power up or recover her guards while slowly breaking him(well he already broken at this point however what she did in the second time was exactly what she did in the first which would again lead him to break anyway, even if him don't had the knowledge from before the reset thing could just repeat leading him to become mad at the end.

his desire of revenge was more than just "kill" he wanted those peoples to suffer the same as he suffered this is why he don't just "kill then" it was clear in the final battle it was so which he told which he wanted more than just see then being killed, this is how "crazy peoples are" don't expectate they being "rational" for everything, many psychopats have a "modus operant" or a routine which is his case, which was first make the reset, then be ready for all the crap and make sure everyone diservers his punishment which is a point you are ignoring, what he talked to her was truth he really don't want to "punish" non guilty peoples and he was not really sure if she was really the monster as the others because most of the times she was near him when he was being "molested" he was drugged or herself molesting him he was drugged he was not on his own mind then he was not sure if she really did on her own will or maybe forced or something like that, only after he confirms which she indeed is really bad as her hero partners which he could keep up his plan.

the reason for the reset, was more like a decision on the moment than was his full plan from the beginning, again during this year he started to become resistant and immune to the drug, he not auto broken and make all the plan in a single day just after he recover, it was something build slowly, he first tried to escape, tried to do others things but as everything keep failing and he find himself more and more deep in the darkness and since the drug don't protect him anymore from going crazy by using his power his mind started to break then he goes from want freedom to want revenge and not just a revenge to "kill" peoples but to make sure they will get max suffering before kill then, he become much sadist as the peoples which he want revenge, then his plan was being build during this time, he don't know about the time travel or anything it was something he was learning and making and again it was in that moment of the battle and when he saw the demon lord which made the decision to go back his curiosity over the demon lord was the last "string" to make him go back in time, he wanted revenge but he also wanted to know what the demon lord was trying to "protect" so fierce.


Quote:

Yes, definitely. Pure malice can never be less evil than anything else.
while this is true this is not what i see specially in our famous "social media or ultra trash garbage knowed as twitter, then like the shield hero which we have peoples ultragerous over the gilr being a "villian" and try to defend her and calling the novel writer a misogenist then same is happening her we have peoples calling the mc a monster but puting the princess in a high place as if she is a full victim and the writer is a mysogenist, sexist well all ists and hate womans and all the common crap, because we have peoples which seens as they "grow mature they brains" diminish making then more childsh and idiots than even childrens.

we have those peoples which believe "womans can't be evil and bla bla bla" and ignore a lot of trash and evil womans or try to defend then by saying which was the "male fault" they are that because "male horrible influence" and males must be destroyed from the world and all bla bla bla.
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Old Today, 14:47   Link #149
stray
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Originally Posted by BWTraveller View Post
This wouldn't directly suggest that raping her and turning her into a sex slave was beneficial to her
Suggesting it indirectly or implicitly doesn't really make it better.
Quote:
And again, I'd be much more interested in seeing Keyaru collapse in shock at the fact that his plan failed, as it did not result in a full breakdown.
Revenge stories tend to focus more on the cost of success than failure, with good reason.
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Old Today, 15:26   Link #150
BWTraveller
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Originally Posted by stray View Post
Suggesting it indirectly or implicitly doesn't really make it better.Revenge stories tend to focus more on the cost of success than failure, with good reason.
Bad choice of words perhaps. My point is that I wasn't suggesting that at all, only that being freed from her past might be something she'd see as a source of happiness. And in a way it would be success, it just would prove that he couldn't do what he set out to do, that instead of crushing her he freed her. But anyway, I don't really think it'll go that way and I don't think it's really a good ending. I don't know what WOULD be a good ending. I just thought it would be an interesting examination of a character's psyche.
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Old Today, 15:59   Link #151
stray
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Originally Posted by BWTraveller View Post
Bad choice of words perhaps. My point is that I wasn't suggesting that at all, only that being freed from her past might be something she'd see as a source of happiness.
Its not wording, its the crux of your scenario. You want her to be like Sill Plain or something which isn't really feasible with the baggage of revenge.

When I say the "cost of success" I mean... hmm. Check out Memento or maybe even Madoka: Rebellion. Sort of hard to reference anything without drowning in spoilers.
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Old Today, 16:16   Link #152
Rasty
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^ The point that every other series goes the "revenge is bad and you will lose everything by it" proves nothing about this one. I, for one, wouldn't be against some originality there and the show ending with a happy ending. Both of them did pretty terrible things to each other, so you can say they are even now (by the end) and now they can live on happily. Kind of like an extreme version of the "two guys making up by beating each other to KO by the riverside" cliche.
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Old Today, 16:24   Link #153
BWTraveller
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Well anyway it was only speculation, born from some small hints at what may be speculation or may be spoilers I'd heard people talk about, that Flare actually harbored a great deal of self-loathing and had wound up like she was for various reasons, as well as that all Keyaru did was erase her memories of being the princess Flare, indicating that Freya isn't some made up personality he implanted to make her a happy slave but the person she could have been... only deceived and convinced she was a happy slave. If these speculations I'd heard are indeed accurate, then it would seem reasonable to think that, if she got her memories back, she would remember a life technically free but full of darkness and disgust at herself for what she'd become and a life released from everything she hated about herself but enslaved to a sadistic madman who wants nothing more than to see the moment she breaks. Both sides are horrible in their own way, and both have aspects that might be desirable, so it could make for an interesting internal conflict.
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Old Today, 17:40   Link #154
stray
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Originally Posted by Rasty View Post
I, for one, wouldn't be against some originality there and the show ending with a happy ending. Both of them did pretty terrible things to each other, so you can say they are even now (by the end) and now they can live on happily. Kind of like an extreme version of the "two guys making up by beating each other to KO by the riverside" cliche.
Okay, yeah, I think you guys are actually starting to scare me now. The series has already gone overboard to make Keyaru seem justified in his revenge thus far; any further is moving well past edgy and into tasteless.
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Old Today, 17:45   Link #155
BWTraveller
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Yeah, I don't want them to end up together. That's way further than I'm willing to go. I just thought it'd be cool to see her upset over having two lives that she both loathes and loves, or to see the targets of his revenge find some way to become happy (not meaning happy with him, just normal and happy) and have him break down over that.
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