Rozen Maiden ~Träumend~ (Season 2)

[Kageitenshi]

I must have inherited talking too much gene from my mother, she can just go on and on and on and..... you get the point... got to love having loudspeaker function on my cell phone

Indeed, I have my own answers on liking or disliking something, absolute or relative, even if it's part of myself and depending entirely on the extent to which a certain aspect expresses itself. What matters is the outcome of it all, and if the outcome is such that certain people scream in most of their comments on how they hate this or that character as if everyone should do so, then what?...... I only ask why, oh why?!?

Can't really relate to feelings behind it all, but I can say for myself that I do my best to turn whatever dislikes I have into something likeable just as long as whoever is on the receiving end gives me a good reason to do so
My mind tells me that it's totally and utterly pointless to have strong negative feelings towards any one person - to quote myself "I don't hate people, just some of the things they do" rest of the time I just ignore it all since it's none of my business anyhow... not that I could possibly intervene even if I wanted to... not to mention that in this case it's fiction and very entertaining while at it.

Just my guideline: Ignore me and I ignore you, respect me and I respect you, hate me and I laugh at you for it, what you do and think of others is between you and them - none of my business - save for extreme cases ofcourse.

Talking about and observing these things could possibly cause no harm what so ever so I actually like doing so for a chance of pace every now and then, it's a form of self induldgence, like everything in life with the only end purpose of breeding.

What if it turns out that Rozen's intentions are good with a bad outcome? People are judging him entirely based on unfortunate outcomes that are related to him just because he was the creator of those who caused the eventual outcome? Like I said a catch 22! Think of that when we see how what happened between Gin and Shinku for example is entirely unrelated to him besides the Father part, as well as how Gin ended up defeating Souseiseki was only because of the aggravation and declaration of WAR caused by Enju, Laplace and Bara. What if Suigintou ends up saving lives instead of taking them despite her ruthlessness and whatever qualities people dislike about her? The blame is put on the creator, why I do not understand while I might know why. I sure wish to understand, merely to grow a better person myself... feelings perhaps, they defy logic?

I could hate my parents for giving me life so that I would be bound to make mistakes that I end up regretting, I could easily blame them for all that! But it's so easy to always blame others isn't it? No? People blame Rozen, he's an easy target isn't he, just because he hasn't appeared to speak for his "actions" that remain to be unspecified by those who dislike him?

All I ask is, what are these actions that people speak of anyhow? Not doing anything about the Alice Game? Perhaps he couldn't intervene? Giving the dolls "weapons"? They can be used for defence without causing permanent harm - and like we've seen, they have the power to help others in the dreamworlds, they're TOOLS for crying out loud! Telling them to beat each other up? Even if he did, he gave them the freedom of choice and the intelligence to realize what they're doing is wrong as well. The dolls hurt each other, not Rozen. I hurt myself, not my parents now that I live apart from them and can decide for myself.

Indeed, when it comes to giving "weapons" to the dolls, weapons are but tools and it's entirely up to the person using it to decide how to use it. this has been "pointed out" on the Ouvertüre thread. It's better to be armed when a situation arises when you need to use force than not to be able to do anything at all don't you think? What they think of these tools just depends on who you ask what they think of, for example an assault rifle or a hunting rifle, or whether think both are as bad, or the difference between a combat knife and a utility knife... Difference? NAMES and mental associations.

Using your illustration

Using your answer, you're free to feel that way and it's ok and understandable. But the answer is the question in itself: why the contradiction of liking some things but not the others and where to draw the line? When under ANY circumstances the very same person is both hated and loved all the same? It's everything or nothing, learn to live with it... or why not just drop dead to save everyone the trouble.

When feelings go as far as harming someone, then isn't even love and caring bad things? Thing is, I don't care if people like or dislike BUT I sure as hell care when the boards are filled with messages that serve only the purpose of making it clear that this one person dislikes someone, no matter how much they try to say that they like certain aspects of the very same person they claim they hate as a person. Contradicting isn't it? And I hate contradictions... Who cares anyhow? Why do I care...? Do I care? totally irrelevant, I just indulge myself on observing how people contradict themselves without blinking an eye.

You must realise that such dislike is never absolute.

WOOOT! Here's the funny thing once again: whatever, when - and where-ever I write, there's always answers handed out to me by those who seem to think answering to answers with questions or giving only questions instead of answers means that I don't have enough answers myself! Damned I hate that as well... not to blame Lost for anything since you answered my questions...... or at least shed some light to them on you part only. Anyone else care to share their opinions please... pretty please? With syrup on top?

No one can answer what isn't asked for... no one, that's how the oracles work! In a way I like to relay my messages in a way that provokes others to find or give their answer in such a manner, it just never seazes to amaze me how people relay their opinions in such... direct and "up yours" personal way. Read my last posts on the Ouvertüre thread and see what happens when one goes overboard with lack of subtlety! >____<

42 - Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy
"The wooden wall will save you and your children"

One can easily make enemies out of potential allies with prejudice and negative feliings. Once both sides realize there's no unreversable harm done to anyone even if you dislike something done or said. Absolute or relative likes or dislikes, good or bad intentions, what matters is the outcome; like it scares me when there's people going as far as saying "Damn I would love to strangle that Rozen bastard" or something along those lines.

Anyhow, final thoughts, since once again I only speak my mind, not spit out my opinions and the answers I have:

I hate hating and I hate a lot of others things, only because that's the only emotion I can actually feel because of how strong it is: it's the only thing that has kept me from becoming a sane person able to live with all the glaring controversies and contradictions in life, it's the only thing I've grown to take as granted besides the inevitable, the only thing that actually truly excites me when observing such behaviour in other people... the one and only thing. I've been hated enough for being just myself for the rest of my life during my time in life so far. But when insanity becomes the norm, what will sanity mean to us? Ignorance is a bliss, the very emotions that defines and keeps us alive as humans is our inevitable doom.

I love Suigintou for I hate her for being the manifestation of the very being that defines myself as a person... hurt, no real purpose in life, hate as the driving force seeking for a reason, even if I know what I want and have to do. Nothing ever changes, things just return to what they used to be.

I - hate myself only for hating myself

[Lost]

Erm, I couldn't really understand most of your post; especially the cryptic "I hate hating and I hate alot" (which sounds to me like a compounded contradiction) but meh, if that's how you feel, I'm fine with that. Now to comment on the parts I could understand (and some I don't).

Originally Posted by Kageitenshi

(1)What if it turns out that Rozen's intentions are good with a bad outcome? People are judging him entirely based on unfortunate outcomes that are related to him just because he was the creator of those who caused the eventual outcome? Like I said a catch 22! Think of that when we see how what happened between Gin and Shinku for example is entirely unrelated to him besides the Father part, as well as how Gin ended up defeating Souseiseki was only because of the aggravation and declaration of WAR caused by Enju, Laplace and Bara. What if Suigintou ends up saving lives instead of taking them despite her ruthlessness and whatever qualities people dislike about her? The blame is put on the creator, why I do not understand while I might know why. I sure wish to understand, merely to grow a better person myself... feelings perhaps, they defy logic?

(2)I could hate my parents for giving me life so that I would be bound to make mistakes that I end up regretting, I could easily blame them for all that! But it's so easy to always blame others isn't it? No? People blame Rozen, he's an easy target isn't he, just because he hasn't appeared to speak for his "actions" that remain to be unspecified by those who dislike him?

(3)All I ask is, what are these actions that people speak of anyhow? Not doing anything about the Alice Game? Perhaps he couldn't intervene? Giving the dolls "weapons"? They can be used for defence without causing permanent harm - and like we've seen, they have the power to help others in the dreamworlds, they're TOOLS for crying out loud! Telling them to beat each other up? Even if he did, he gave them the freedom of choice and the intelligence to realize what they're doing is wrong as well. The dolls hurt each other, not Rozen. I hurt myself, not my parents now that I live apart from them and can decide for myself.

(4)Indeed, when it comes to giving "weapons" to the dolls, weapons are but tools and it's entirely up to the person using it to decide how to use it. this has been "pointed out" on the Ouvertüre thread. It's better to be armed when a situation arises when you need to use force than not to be able to do anything at all don't you think? What they think of these tools just depends on who you ask what they think of, for example an assault rifle or a hunting rifle, or whether think both are as bad, or the difference between a combat knife and a utility knife... Difference? NAMES and mental associations.

On your first (1)and second (2) paragraph: that is good, and in line with my reasoning on why I cannot absolutely blame Rozen at the moment; especially the part where you state that he hasn't directly spoken for his actions. Just something I do not agree with:

Originally Posted by Yourself

I could hate my parents for giving me life so that I would be bound to make mistakes that I end up regretting

Note that Rozen did not just give them life. He gave them the means (those "tools") and the motive (love for him) for them to "make mistakes." So, you might be justified in hating your parents if they gave you life and then ensured, with full intention, that you would make the mistakes you regret. But that's an "If" on my part isn't it - Rozen may not have intended for them to fight; nevertheless the tools and the love for him are still from him; they were bestowed upon the Dolls by him. Even if it was not his intention for them to fight (see my last paragraph below), some people may be justified in blaming for first putting those in place for them to be so easily manipulated. But. If it really was his intention for them to fight, then he is damned, as far as blame is concerned.

Paragraph 3: Good and valid possibilities. However, another thing here that I disagree with... while they do technically have freedom of choice (see Sui) that does not make everything free and easy "they all live happily evar after," because that freedom (of making the choice not to fight) will not be respected by the rest of the Dolls (see Sui).

Paragraph 4: Indeed, a kitchen knife just be used just as efficiently to take a person's life as a combat knife (as with a hunting rifle).

Originally Posted by You

>>You must realise that such dislike is never absolute.

WOOOT! Here's the funny thing once again: whatever, when - and where-ever I write, there's always answers handed out to me by those who seem to think answering to answers with questions or giving only questions instead of answers means that I don't have enough answers myself!

Erm, are you accusing me of answering with questions? Enlighten me, I fail to see how that statement I made (and the following paragraph in my OP) is a question.

---

---

Going off on a tangent here; but Kage's words on their "weapons" being tools makes me think of something.

WHAT IF the Alice Game was actually manipulation and a devious deviation of Rozen's original purpose (which is something more peaceful) by LAPLACE? As early as Ouverture we see Laplace consorting with Enju, who has clearly shown himself to be Rozen's enemy. We also see how easy it is for Souseiseki to be taken in by a false "Father" in Traumend; might not Shinku have been the same? Further, with Sou, that happened in an N-field - doesnt Shinku say something similar, that "Rozen" transcends time "in the N-field"? Afterall, even in Traumend, Shinku realises the futility and cruelty of fighting -- if the creation is as loyal to the one that created it as we think it is ("in his image he created them" LOL), does that mean that fighting was not the Creator's original purpose? Maybe Laplace/Enju held Rozen hostage or somehow imprisoned him. This could all just be a farce of Laplace, like his namesake, the (in this case scheming) demon who knows all outcomes.

[Kageitenshi]

>>You must realise that such dislike is never absolute
Uhm, I'm not accusing you of answering questions with questions, I just merely pointed that I don't like the way you said it so that I should realize something that I already take for granted but don't say it to others in such manner... I'm the one who answers questions with more questions

Paragraph 4: Indeed, a kitchen knife just be used just as efficiently to take a person's life as a combat knife (as with a hunting rifle).

Or they can both be used as effectively as novelty items and sporting gear, or a knife can be used as a harmless prop in say... role playing? The item doesn't define the use of it, the user does, no matter how much an item has been designed solely for one purpose.

That last what if has been thrown around already
And I... think I was the first to post the what if Rozen has been "imprisoned" somehow by Enju and Laplace. I think it's on the Ouvertüre thread somewhere, or perhaps earlier on this thread.

"I hate hating" isn't a contradiction, it's a self perpetuating circle, another catch 22 - can't hate something without being able hate which in itself is something that can and even should be hated for being the cause for alot of bad things in life.

My parents didn't only give me life, they also were the ones to give me a whole alot of ideas on how I should live. My loving and thinking of them as the equivalent of gods didn't come out of them, they came out of me by nature, besides no one knows for sure why the Maidens love Rozen so much, it's no doubt no different from our love towards our parents.

Besides, there still hasn't been a valid answer for WHY should anyone hate Rozen if the ones who are supposedly on the receiving end of his "evilness" still love him. *Invites others to take part in the conversation*

What of understanding? Meh... one may have alot of answers but understanding them is a whole another thing, that's the truth behind all the answers everywhere - the point really! I know what people make out of the answers given about what has happened so far in the anime, but I don't understand the reasoning behind half of them. Answer to the question "do you dislike (insert name here)?" may be yes or no, but that doesn't by far justify or explain anything. Getting the answer for "why do you dislike?" has turned out to be amazingly hard when there's only answers for "what do you dislike?" Especially important when we consider the consequences of not having the why part answered properly. I know why I don't hate or even dislike Rozen, or any of the Maidens, does any of you know why you do?

And please, if you wish to shorten the name Kageitenshi, please use Kage = Shadow ^__^

[Blablabla]

Still I patiently await the day wherby Gin-sama and Shinku could finally live happily as sisters, renounce and give-up the absurdity that is the Alice Game just like Desu, ages ago...God I love Desu...

NO NO NO NO NO !! Hell NO !! Please no...
I really hate such "Walt Disney bulshit ending" like we saw on My HiME "I killed your friend, your mom', it's not my fault, the vilain is now defeated, let's become friends again".
Shinku forgave Gin for what she did to her (RM 6 when she appologized for the "Junk") and in the other hand Gin chose to protect Shinku, she chose her to watch over Megu, once again, the first time since Ouverture, she put her faith in Shinku's hand.
The 2 sisters are now reconciled... but chose differents ways. Shinku with the other sisters and Gin at Megu's side. What are you excpeting more from them ? Why ?

[npal]

^ A hot GinxShinku yuri, what else?

[Blablabla]

Originally Posted by npal

^ A hot GinxShinku yuri, what else?

....

Rozen Maiden managed to not fall on such ridiculous "marketting yuri" trap that we are seeing more and more... I hope that this will go on.

[npal]

Bleh, I can still dream

Yuri RM doujins FTW

[Deathkillz]

well shinku x gin sama isnt all that good of a pair imo...i go with megu x gin sama for some torture action

[Blablabla]

You guys are insane... i'll burn a candle for your soul next time I'll go to church.

[Kageitenshi]

Think of what the candle will feel like to be burnt for their sake! Besides, fantasies aren't a sin, nor do they make anyone insane... quite the contrary
I cheer for Gin x Megu, totally! Hope they get some good action going while she's still alive

[Lost]

Originally Posted by Blablabla

You guys are insane... i'll burn a candle for your soul next time I'll go to church.

ROFL. Relax. While my ideal eventual relationship between Gin and Shinku would be something like you see in this picture here; I know its a far cry but I would honestly cry (i.e. shed tears) in happiness if I could see that realised. Realistically: At least, I want them to be allies and fight together, for each other; maybe, just maybe, even though there may be grudges on either side at first, a love and friendship can come out of that.

As you pointed out, Shinku has made the first step by apologising to Gin. Sadly Gin has yet to accept Shinku. I still refuse to believe that her act of "protecting" - shielding is a better term - Shinku was selfless. As I see it, it was anything but. And at the end of Traumend Shinku did not take care of Megu, no matter what anyone says about Gin doing it so Shinku would protect Megu in her stead...

[SlurEXE]

I don't really like Shinku, but I would agree that it would be nice to see Shinku and Suigintou at least on friendly terms.

Does anyone play MapleSEA? There are some Rozen Maiden-taken characters. I'm Kirakishou myself.

[Kittie Rose]

I was really annoyed that this series just seemed to forget about the relationship Jun and Shinku had built up towards the end of the series.

I thought it was really sweet. It was actually somewhat unexpected, since these kind of anime usually "Joke" about such an odd relationship but rarely let it come to pass without some kind of plot device(only example I can think of is Dragon Half and dragon shape shifting). It's the kind of thing put into "slashfics" but that never gets realised in a real anime(and thus never written very well).

It would have opened a Pandora's box of interesting issues that would have resonated strongly with real life relationships with "vertically challenged" people and otherwise physically unusual people.

It's just so... strange, but that's the attraction in it. The idea of love breaking down boundaries even between a living doll and a human is quite beautiful...

I have no idea how the Manga approaches this, I presume it's much the same...

[Lost]

Eh? How did the series forget about the relationship between Jun and Shinku?

I assume you've already watched the last episode of Traumend. You can't tell me the scene with Jun propping lifeless Shinku up and the scenes leading up to it and from it were not at all about the relationship between them. Sure, it may have not been lovey-dovey like that of Season 1 ep 12, but it still developed their relationship, just approaching it from a different aspect. Same goes for all of Traumend - while they did focus more on plot - as in the Alice Game - and gave different dolls more airtime, I hardly think that Shinku & Jun development was forgotten - if you say less highlighted, I'd agree, but not forgotten.

[Kageitenshi]

Speaking of breaking boundaries, I'm not sure if you mean actual physical loving, but what might these "boundaries" be?

Seeing how even Jun's "akuma ningyou" - "devil doll" comments have gotten a light-hearted tone to them, becoming more of an inside joke between two close friends towards the end of Träumend than something meant to irritate - the closeness of Jun and Shinku is more of those of a close friend loved as such, but not as lovers.

Since quite obvious that all the dolls' hearts belong to one and one only - Rozen, then closer inspection on the quality of the relationship between the two is rather unnecessary but indeed does bring a certain unreplaceable feeling of closeness between them that has its charm, but is far from being an issue requiring more attention to it. Especially when most of the issues people seem to be asking to be answered for in third season aren't related to this relationship.

All that aside, considering how every one of us is different, the only boundaries between any two people able to communicate, no matter what they may be like, are only imaginary of quality caused by prejudice, ignorance or inconsiderations. Don't see what more could be done to show that being a doll isn't anything to stop people from considering them to be or at least treating them like real people. Unless ofcourse you mean actual love relationship, which ain't going to happen in other than doujin

[Kittie Rose]

[quote]the closeness of Jun and Shinku is more of those of a close friend loved as such, but not as lovers./quote]

Unless ofcourse you mean actual love relationship, which ain't going to happen in other than doujin

But it was happening towards the end of the first series, quite blatantly so. Maybe not as much on JUn's side, but when he was embarassed to kiss her, she was disappointed. And Shinku talking about how he made her really happy... that wasn't in a very "We're friends" kind of way. And the way Shinku looked at Jun when he was fixing her dress, those eyes... such a change from the "cutely stern" eyes she normally has.

Don't see what more could be done to show that being a doll isn't anything to stop people from considering them to be or at least treating them like real people.

It's what I like to call the Quasimodo factor, something I suffer form in real life.

At the end of the supposedly more cheery Disney version of the hunchback of Notre Damme, everyone "accepted" Quasimodo as a real human being. Yet, he was still turned down by Esmerelda, and just had to accept his place.

This kind of thing happens in real life all the time. Despite people claiming to accept someone, it still becomes bizarrely difficult for them to find anyone to be close to, while others have been hanging off them.

I really wanted to see Rozen Maiden break this, in a way both Jun and Shinku had their own stigmas against them.

It would also have been quite funny and interesting to see him explain away his midget girlfriend...

[Kageitenshi]

But it was happening towards the end of the first series, quite blatantly so

I found that to be something meant to be amusing to lighten up the already darkened 1st season. More so than a sign of closeness, I honestly classified that as the "oh so natural" tendency of any young boy to test their limits and satisfy their curiosity out of impulse the "I show mine, you show yours" kind of a way. Jun isn't really honestly mature enough to even consider any closeness in a love relationship the way the events unfolded, being a hikikomori and all.
What of Shinku, I've had a similar event happen with a used to be close friend of mine saying I made her happy making her laugh etc. and that she loves me as a friend. But she was quite reserved already, so friends can do that too The underlined text is to directly quote her.

I'm aware of the Quasimodo factor, but unfortunately it's caused by the way humans are naturally biased towards anything unnatural. Something that anything fictional couldn't ever help with when it would come to the real events, which unfortunately, as of yet, is an impossibility. There's always the wall of ice between people that needs to be broken down by the two of them, something that fiction can only help with by adding a little heat to any one side of the wall but never to break the boundary altogether.

Perhaps when human cybernetics have reached a level where any mentally human entity of a cyborg can be called a puppet for having a non-human, non-organic body could we ever find a true situation close to resembling loving a doll in Rozen Maiden. Just thinking of GitS and GUNNM... But by the time that's happening, such minor physical issues hindering human relationships would have likely been overcome by the less prejudiced intersocial net-dependent, privacy-disillusioned generation!

I really wanted to see Rozen Maiden break this, in a way both Jun and Shinku had their own stigmas against them.

It would also have been quite funny and interesting to see him explain away his midget girlfriend...

We might yet see this come true, perhaps not in a love affair between the two, walking hand in hand window shopping at a local shopping district, but something of a revealing the truth to the public kind of a way (likely unintentionally though). I do agree with that quoted statement actually... in the hoping to see this happen part. Shinku x Jun + Gin x Megu ftw

Funny should you say "had their stigmas against them" since it already states that what ever stigmas there might have been are no longer there, at least when it comes to those who frequent these RM threads
The only stigmas left are only human of quality, like the evilness of Rozen or Gin or the way people perceive the Shinku - Gin relationship and the events regarding it.

Edit: Just as I was writing the part about cyborg love I had the Ghost in the Shell S.A.C. ED song Living Inside the Shell playing and I only realized it after I posted I often play the Be Human song - "If I was more human" The first time I heard that song playing on the series after Batou tried to punch Major but only ended up being ghost hacked by her punching himself instead... I was flabbergasted laughing my head off and thinking "oh how broken I indeed am wondering about the what if I were more human"

[Kittie Rose]

I'm aware of the Quasimodo factor, but unfortunately it's caused by the way humans are naturally biased towards anything unnatural.

Unnatural is a very weighted term. I don't think dolls are unnatural as they're a natural result of our evolutionary "superiority" over other species; the ability to dream; to create. Unnatural means against, not belonging in nature... which is a horrid thing to think of indeed.

[Kageitenshi]

I used the term unnatural for a reason, since people tend to react to very natural phenomenon with a heightened response of bias It's not the what about but the why. Whether the reason be seemingly physical or psychological.

Wictionary about "unnatural": Something that is not natural, whether it is supernatural, or artificial.

Most things "supernatural" tend to be classified as such because they're not understood causing bias... hence the usage of the word unnatural in this context. Not as in something that doesn't belong in nature

[Deathkillz]

oh i can feel something between Jun and Shinku but tbh it isnt going to happen...humans cant be together with dolls on that level of love...thats unless the doll turns into a realy human...lol sounds like a disney fairy tale to me

but yea definatly jun loves shinku and its the same about her...more of a friendship love but not as close as a lover's love...the need each other but in a different way to being lovers