Macross Frontier Character Discussion - Ranka Lee

[kujoe]

Originally Posted by Father Hentai

Again I ask. Did she really wished to be tooled as a war toy of the government? From the appointment with Leon she felt unease but accepted because others pushed her to do what they want her to do. A responsibility what has been tossed by Macross Frontier government because they failed to improve armory. Her role as songstress is something different than to be used as war tool. That she was being toyed around comes because she is a teenager. Again I declare on this point that she is still a child where she is not ready to take full responsibilities. If you still say this then would you like your children to be used as toys for war because they are gifted with age of 16? This is what really drives me crazy because it is easily said if it's not your own child you are thinking of.

Perhaps you misunderstood my point.

With hidden intentions by those in power, Ranka is selected to be their singer, and they're right. Her voice can save lives, and Ranka sings. But later on, she comes to realize that her reason for singing is a very personal one, and it does go against what she is sent to do. Her heart isn't in the right place; she cannot take the burden, and because of this more tragedy is the result. This is all in episode 21.. or 22. (Frankly, I can't keep with you guys.)

And I agree with what you say. She isn't ready to take on such a responsibility. But she takes it nonetheless. I find it baffling to simply say that she is just a manipulated child as if it can make everything better.

Don't belittle her. Her situation is more than that.

[Father Hentai]

Ah. ok.
The tragedy starts earlier, where Brera opens what she has shut close and revealed where the power of her song comes from. Episode 17 to 20.

And I think you did not understand what I meant with manipulated. It is because she was not ready for so much responsibility she has been manipulated. Something Leon and Grace took advantage of.

[kujoe]

Originally Posted by Father Hentai

The tragedy starts earlier, where Brera opens what she has shut close and revealed where the power of her song comes from. Episode 17 to 20.

I was specifically referring to her song failing after she finds Alto and Sheryl on the roof. I don't remember the episode number to that one.

Originally Posted by Father Hentai

And I think you did not understand what I meant with manipulated. It is because she was not ready for so much responsibility she has been manipulated. Something Leon and Grace took advantage of.

And are we supposed to excuse her just for that? Should everything just be blamed on Leon and Grace? Ironically, by doing so you are only making Ranka a much weaker character than she is.

Manipulated or not, she made her mark, she made her decisions—her own choices. Why should she get a free pass on everything?

[Tak]

Originally Posted by DeX-kun

Actually those Vajra's were the ones left in hiding after the bigger battle was taken care of on Island 3, remember that the Vajra had been breeding within Frontier itself. I said that the Vajra never came back to attack, not that they weren't in the Frontier itself.

You are arguing pointless semantics again. There are no evidence to suggest that these Vajra were bred in Frontier. In fact, in the synopsis of 23 posted on the official website, it was stated quite clearly that the Frontier was short of resources due to consistent Vajra raid. Those could be seen as another Vajra patrol. Even if they weren't, so what? The fact of the matter is, the Vajra were still attacking. Just because Ranka left did not immediately make the Frontier suddenly a safer place to live.

Originally Posted by DeX-kun

Remember that Luca was using a Fold-wave jammer so they don't attract more in order to test the new war-head missles and so that the information doesn't reach new Vajra's.

You are contradicting yourself with this statement.

Originally Posted by DeX-kun

I don't think Ranka was taking her time, because they had no idea where the planet was but Ai-kun was somehow communicating with Ranka and telling her which way to go.

That communication apparently lasted so long that Ranka actually went out of her cockpit for an extended stroll in space. Right.

Originally Posted by DeX-kun

The "human" problems at that moment were the Vajra themselves, so going to the Vajra home planet can't be considered running away, at least from my perspective.

Ok, so in your point of view, somehow the Vajra were elevated to the status of humans. That is fine, you have the right to be wrong.

Right, so going to the Vajra planet cannot be considered running away? You mean by confusing Alto, her friends and the entire Frontier population, then refuse to clear it up but instead opted for another planet cannot be considered as running away? Look, she failed to deal with her personal problems, and worse, she intended to drag Alto into the unknown.

I've asked you many times, and I'd like you to clearly analyze this situation:

First, did you really think it was rational for Ranka to take on an entire planet full of unknowns?

Second, were there better alternatives?

Certainly, Ranka had options. She could have consulted other people closer to him. Yet, instead of doing that, once she found out Alto would not OK her actions, she simply bolted. In her personal bubble, it would appear that unless you said 'yes' to her, unless you supported her 'goals', or unless you are Alto, you don't matter as a human being. Even Kawamori mentioned this in his character analysis of Ranka.

Originally Posted by Father Hentai

And I think you did not understand what I meant with manipulated. It is because she was not ready for so much responsibility she has been manipulated. Something Leon and Grace took advantage of.

She made her choice, not at gunpoint, not because people surrounded her house and threatened to blow it up, she made the choice hoping that what she does would make Alto happy. So at the end, she accepted her duty and enjoyed the fruits of her fame. She simply could not bring herself to heed that responsibility, even if she enjoyed the fame that came with it. From the moment she escaped the parade, it was plenty obvious to me that she probably would be unable to assume her new-found post.

- Tak

[BetoJR]

Oh God, I'm aggressive and we're arguing semantics and misunderstandings... good luck to everyone, I'm out of this one.

[Tak]

Originally Posted by BetoJR

Oh God, I'm aggressive and we're arguing semantics and misunderstandings... good luck to everyone, I'm out of this one.

Good idea... I think I should just concentrate on Linebarrels of Iron...

- Tak

[wisteria233]

Originally Posted by Father Hentai

Ah. ok.
The tragedy starts earlier, where Brera opens what she has shut close and revealed where the power of her song comes from. Episode 17 to 20.

And I think you did not understand what I meant with manipulated. It is because she was not ready for so much responsibility she has been manipulated. Something Leon and Grace took advantage of.

Father Hentai I think you misunderstand something, Ranka was by no means being manipulated, She was always given a chance to say no. She wasn't ordered to take on the role of the songstress of hope she was asked to take that role and though she had her misgivings about it once Alto said do it she did. It was the same way when Grace changed Aimo, Ranka was asked if she liked it, and though she felt it was wrong Ranka never spoke up. Watch the episodes again and you'll see. She wasn't being manipulated by anyone, she just never voiced her own opinion, even when she was given the chance to. That is not manipulation what that is a person who was too reserved to voice her own opinion even when given the chance. Again, there is a big difference between being asked to do something and being manipulated to do something.

[zalem]

Originally Posted by Tak

Good idea... I think I should just concentrate on Linebarrels of Iron...

- Tak

eh, you're watching that too? It's far from a masterpiece, but it can be amusing at times. For a while I did think it would go all trainwrecky like the awful Dragonaut, but I think it's managed to avoid that so far.

Ok now to make this Ranka related. My take on her behavior in episode 21 is that she had her heart in the right place, but it was a very naive decision. She genuinely wanted to stop the vajra and humans from fighting. And I give her credit for actually ignoring Alto and doing what she believed in despite him disagreeing. The Ranka from episode 14 would have crumbled and just followed whatever Alto said. But thinking that she along with her brother and ai-kun could just run off and stop the war was a bit irrational on her part.

[Father Hentai]

Originally Posted by kujoe

And are we supposed to excuse her just for that? Should everything just be blamed on Leon and Grace? Ironically, by doing so you are only making Ranka a much weaker character than she is.

Manipulated or not, she made her mark, she made her decisions—her own choices. Why should she get a free pass on everything?

If weakening her character means to make her character quite more understandable then so be it. Or would that be a big problems for the people here?

Also she was not ready to decide. I also do not think that Ozma who is her custodian would easily let this go through. It is easy to pass a responsibility on a kid with no custodian around.

Originally Posted by Tak

She made her choice, not at gunpoint, not because people surrounded her house and threatened to blow it up, she made the choice hoping that what she does would make Alto happy. So at the end, she accepted her duty and enjoyed the fruits of her fame. She simply could not bring herself to heed that responsibility, even if she enjoyed the fame that came with it. From the moment she escaped the parade, it was plenty obvious to me that she probably would be unable to assume her new-found post.

I doubt that she fully enjoyed the fruits she seeded. If so she would not have asked Alto if her choice was right and also she would not made a big gap when Ozma asked her if that what she has chosen was that was she wished for. I skip to reply about the responsibility because what I think of that is posted above. If you want me to reply on that, give me 6 hours because I need to sleep now :P

Originally Posted by wisteria233

Father Hentai I think you misunderstand something, Ranka was by no means being manipulated, She was always given a chance to say no. She wasn't ordered to take on the role of the songstress of hope she was asked to take that role and though she had her misgivings about it once Alto said do it she did. It was the same way when Grace changed Aimo, Ranka was asked if she liked it, and though she felt it was wrong Ranka never spoke up. Watch the episodes again and you'll see. She wasn't being manipulated by anyone, she just never voiced her own opinion, even when she was given the chance to. That is not manipulation what that is a person who was too reserved to voice her own opinion even when given the chance. Again, there is a big difference between being asked to do something and being manipulated to do something.

Watch episode 15 and think about it again. It was already settle that she will be the songstress because the project with sheryl was a failure. Again she was able to be manipulated (here equated with to influence someone) because she is inexperienced due to her youth. Yes she had not raised her voice but this is something where I say that Leon and Grace knew. Or why do you think they have not invited Ozma when Leon invited her for the songstress of hope offer?

[kujoe]

Originally Posted by Father Hentai

If weakening her character means to make her character quite more understandable then so be it. Or would that be a big problems for the people here?

Aren't we discussing and criticizing her already? It's a double-edged sword.

Originally Posted by Father Hentai

Also she was not ready to decide. I also do not think that Ozma who is her custodian would easily let this go through. It is easy to pass a responsibility on a kid with no custodian around.

But she does. Ozma finally learns to let the girl forge her own path, reluctantly.

Originally Posted by Father Hentai

I doubt that she fully enjoyed the fruits she seeded. If so she would not have asked Alto if her choice was right and also she would not made a big gap when Ozma asked her if that what she has chosen was that was she wished for. I skip to reply about the responsibility because what I think of that is posted above. If you want me to reply on that, give me 6 hours because I need to sleep now :P

It's called having a sense of doubt. Everything is new to her, and she's going towards a new kind of life. I don't know if she truly enjoyed the process, but it comes with perks that are usual and critical in the business. And she does enjoy singing and seeing people appreciate her songs. It's still the goal that she's willing to pursue.

Originally Posted by Father Hentai

Watch episode 15 and think about it again. It was already settle that she will be the songstress because the project with sheryl was a failure. Again she was able to be manipulated (here equated with to influence someone) because she is inexperienced due to her youth. Yes she had not raised her voice but this is something where I say that Leon and Grace knew. Or why do you think they have not invited Ozma when Leon invited her for the songstress of hope offer?

We all know the stage that she stands on, the circumstances of her life. But in no way should these downplay the character herself, since she has to cope and grow from them. It's a story, and one cannot just simply deny the weight of consequence by equating everything to "they made her do it." By doing so, Ranka's worth in the story as a character is only being downplayed further.

[Liddo-kun]

Originally Posted by Westlo

That episode 16 or 17 talk with Alto in her bedroom was the death knell for her character development. I was dumbfounded by that and that pretty much ruined my opinion on her character. I mean we go from episode 14 where she's communicating with the Varja and crying as they get killed. She doesn't tell a single soul about any of this, but she starts to get some doubts... asks Alto if it's alright to do this... and she's instantly genki again as soon as he okay's it. Whoever wrote that sequence assassinated her character and layed the groundwork for the of events dokun dokun , 20 and 21.

I think asking only Alto about it wasn't a very good move.
Might have been better if Ranka asked for a second opinion or even a third opinion on the matter.

[Tak]

Originally Posted by zalem

eh, you're watching that too? It's far from a masterpiece, but it can be amusing at times. For a while I did think it would go all trainwrecky like the awful Dragonaut, but I think it's managed to avoid that so far.

Well, I am actually concentrating on the manga more. So far, there are 11 volumes, and compared to the anime, the manga is indeed much better.

The anime version took way too much artistic liberties, making it something akin to your typical harem comedy. Not that its totally a bad thing, but its drastically different from its paper-counterpart.

- Tak

[Father Hentai]

But she does. Ozma finally learns to let the girl forge her own path, reluctantly.

You are overseeing something here. Ozma accepts also her path to leave Frontier and unravel her past while the folks here find it not understandable. By no means I itend to disrespect Rankas character but giving her weaknesses makes her more understandable. At the end she still will be a strong character as she supported to save humanity from being assimilated into a bug network.

Originally Posted by Liddo-kun

I think asking only Alto about it wasn't a very good move.
Might have been better if Ranka asked for a second opinion or even a third opinion on the matter.

Hm, Brera and Ai kun?

[Liddo-kun]

Originally Posted by Father Hentai

Hm, Brera and Ai kun?

I never suggested Ai-kun, how you came up with the idea of Ranka asking Ai-kun's opinion is all on your own.

First of all, asking only Alto of all persons isn't the right choice at that time.
Alto has been been on edge, he gets into a fight with Mikhail and later Alto also got into a fight with Brera. Angry people are bound to make rash rather than wise decisions. Given Alto's situation, asking opinion from him... you could understand what sort of opinion he'd give to Ranka.

Ranka could have told the whole story to Ozma instead, given the fact that Ozma and Cathy are the ones who later worked to discover that the Vajra's aren't really evil.

[kujoe]

Originally Posted by Father Hentai

You are overseeing something here. Ozma accepts also her path to leave Frontier and unravel her past while the folks here find it not understandable. By no means I itend to disrespect Rankas character but giving her weaknesses makes her more understandable. At the end she still will be a strong character as she supported to save humanity from being assimilated into a bug network.

I thought you were talking about her choice of becoming an idol amidst the secret plots brewing on the background. Are you now talking about her choice of leaving Frontier?

If you're talking about her intentions of leaving, then Grace nor Leon's machinations have nothing to do with it. She decides to do so on her own.

It is understandable, but that is not what people are criticizing about. It's whether her intention of doing so is smart or otherwise, whether she thought of it properly, or if it's the responsible thing to do. On the other hand, others have criticized her act as naive; some have thought of it as out of character, not adhering to how her character seems to be developing towards to.

Moreover, her weaknesses, and perhaps the lack of character itself, is precisely what we're talking about here. It just so happens that many don't view them as such or disagree with them completely.

[wisteria233]

Originally Posted by Father Hentai

If weakening her character means to make her character quite more understandable then so be it. Or would that be a big problems for the people here?

Also she was not ready to decide. I also do not think that Ozma who is her custodian would easily let this go through. It is easy to pass a responsibility on a kid with no custodian around.



I doubt that she fully enjoyed the fruits she seeded. If so she would not have asked Alto if her choice was right and also she would not made a big gap when Ozma asked her if that what she has chosen was that was she wished for. I skip to reply about the responsibility because what I think of that is posted above. If you want me to reply on that, give me 6 hours because I need to sleep now :P



Watch episode 15 and think about it again. It was already settle that she will be the songstress because the project with sheryl was a failure. Again she was able to be manipulated (here equated with to influence someone) because she is inexperienced due to her youth. Yes she had not raised her voice but this is something where I say that Leon and Grace knew. Or why do you think they have not invited Ozma when Leon invited her for the songstress of hope offer?

Again you need watch 15 and 16 she was given time to think over prospects, neither Grace nor Leon had any previous contact with her, and while they were brewing schemes in the background. Schemes that had to do with taking over frontier, aka getting rid of the president, and had nothing to do with her. In fact it was only the president and Cathy that were being manipulated not Ranka. Manipulation involves the party not being able to tell that what they're doing is wrong and not given a choice to , Ranka was able to tell what she was doing was wrong but she was also given a choice. Its no ones fault but her own that she makes bad decisions.

Again I'd like to reiterate the difference between someone being manipulated and someone making a bad decision, Ranka made a bad decision. Besides she could have more people than just Alto for their opinion on the matter, like Ozma, Michael, Luca, hell even her best friend. She could have asked for advice from more than one source.

Also Ranka was not manipulated into not attending a parade being held in her honor, in order to find her pet. She was not manipulated into thinking that a simple stunt was a love confession. She was not manipulated into thinking she should die just because Alto didn't love her. She was not manipulated into leaving Frontier because things weren't easy anymore. Face it Ranka has made bad decisions through out the entire series

By your logic if a 16 year old mass murderer were to get caught, and in their own defense claim that they did it because they were told to, even though they had a choice not to. You would let them off the hook just because in your mind if a person is manipulated they should automatically be forgiven for any crimes they have committed, and their crimes erased. Would you seriously say that to the faces of the friends, and family of the victims?

Whether or not a person is being manipulated it doesn't erase the crimes they have committed, it doesn't relieve them of any responsibility.

[justavisitor]

I don't wanna crash your party Father Hentai...I just wanna give out my 2 cents on this things..if you think I am crashing your party I can delete my comments as you request XD

And no harm to anyone, just replying the topic here...

About Ranka only asking Alto for advice: Remember that Ranka has those tough bodyguards around her...the purpose of those bodyguard, in surface, is to protect her safety, but the real reason, is to block her from reaching out, so it will be easier to manipulate Ranka (Oh yes, I am going to that manipulate part XD) But Ranka tries to break the barrier and asks for outsider's help, yes she could ask ozma, but it proofs that she tries to reach out, and in her eye, Alto probably is a mature person to her (even tho to us it's another story), besides, I don't know Ozma is still young enough to climb between building XD (I kid on this part)

Now manipulation, well, from my point of view, Grace manipulates Leon...Grace supports Leon to get power and destroy Vajra, while she uses the chance to get close to Vajra's home base and control those bugs..Now Leon gets not enough information about Vajra, if he knows Grace's ability to survive in other host, her intention and how powerful the Vajra can become once Grace controls those bugs, he might use other plans. In a sense, every single one in MF got manipulated by Leon.

So for Leon he probably thinks Vajra is easy to be destoryed so he doesn't explore the option to "communicate" with Vajra and finds the true reason of Vajra attacking MF ...in results, everyone in MF is being manipulated by Leon, into thinking that fighting with Vajra is the only way to survive, which in the last episode shows that this is not the case.

Now then Ranka running away and Macross Quarter's escape are the sign of breaking manipulation from Leon and Grace. Everyone says Ranka going alone is not smart...I agree she could handle better, but in a sense, Macross Quarter's escape is not that smart either...A single fleet going to Vajra's home planet is the same thing...to put it even further, how long the supply can last in MQ? They are doomed anyway in the long term...So the last thing I wanna say is, there are difference in anime and real life...as I used the blood test example in Sheryl in my previous post: When Grace tells Sheryl she has that disease, what she should do in real life is to go to hospital and have a complete body check...if her virus is contagious to human then she should stay in hospital (of course, ppl can say based on the past interaction, the virus probably is not contagious, but no one can be sure of anything, especially on vrius)...but what does she do in anime? She runs to Micheal and Klan...if that virus is contagious then Micheal and Klan have to Sheryl to thank and it will be a disaster for the whole MF...Let's be very clear that I don't blame Sheryl for this...but if ppl wants to be so strict, then Sheryl makes a huge mistake

So that's all, hope I am not trashing your party Father Hentai and Dex-kun XD

[kujoe]

Originally Posted by wisteria233

Again I'd like to reiterate the difference between someone being manipulated and someone making a bad decision, Ranka made a bad decision. Besides she could have more people than just Alto for their opinion on the matter, like Ozma, Michael, Luca, hell even her best friend. She could have asked for advice from more than one source.

Also Ranka was not manipulated into not attending a parade being held in her honor, in order to find her pet. She was not manipulated into thinking that a simple stunt was a love confession. She was not manipulated into thinking she should die just because Alto didn't love her. She was not manipulated into leaving Frontier because things weren't easy anymore. Face it Ranka has made bad decisions through out the entire series

I think this is what separates the various camps here. (Apparently, I'm the devil for being such a biased Sheryl fan. Never mind that I'm ironically holding Ranka up as a character and not merely as a perpetual victim.)

A lot of manipulation occurs in the story. That's part of the plot, and Leon and Grace are meant to play the roles of scheming antagonists from day one. But what's significant here is not to justify every action by saying that everything is just spurred on by some outside force beyond the control of the characters, because in the end, everyone is manipulated in one form or another. It's really about the ideas of action and consequence—the idea of looking at characters as they cope amidst their circumstances. The idea of how they realize certain feelings, or how they go about their intentions. The idea of how they stumble and how they get up. The idea of failing and learning. It's on that level that we're criticizing Ranka and the writing of her character here, which is either lacking or not so convincing.

It seems that everyone is on a different wavelength when it comes to the character. It's not just about the bigger picture—the grand scheme of things—for that's already simple enough on its own. It's also about the little things—significant choices and actions—leading to it.


And there, I've said my piece. This is just going to go in circles, and truth be told, I'd rather be in the images thread.

[wisteria233]

Originally Posted by kujoe

I think this is what separates the various camps here. (Apparently, I'm the devil for being such a biased Sheryl fan. Never mind that I'm ironically holding Ranka up as a character and not merely as a perpetual victim.)

A lot of manipulation occurs in the story. That's part of the plot, and Leon and Grace are meant to play the roles of scheming antagonists from day one. But what's significant here is not to justify every action by saying that everything is just spurned on by some outside force beyond the control of the characters, because in the end, everyone is manipulated in one form or another. It's really about the ideas of action and consequence—the idea of looking at characters as they cope amidst their circumstances. The idea of how they realize certain feelings, or how they go about their intentions. The idea of how they stumble and how they get up. The idea of failing and learning. It's on that level that we're criticizing Ranka and the writing of her character here, which is either lacking or not so convincing.

It seems that everyone is on a different wavelength when it comes to the character. It's not just about the bigger picture—the grand scheme of things—for that's already simple enough on its own. It's also about the little things—significant choices and actions—leading to it.


And there, I've said my piece. This is just going to go in circles, and truth be told, I'd rather be in the images thread.

I know, I for one, love characters with flaws, so a character with one or two flaws does not bother me. In fact it makes me like them, the fact that they're not perfect is what's so interesting. However, in Ranka's case there are just more than character flaws. This is a case of a little girl who just doesn't want to grow up, who'd just be happier staying in her perfect little bubble world. In the Macross world Ranka is almost an adult ( the legal age is 17) so that is also something else to consider. Ranka is like Shiho from Mai-hime, but in Ranka's case Alto was unaware of how she felt, and really how could he know? All she ever did was ask him for advice, she never put herself forward in a manner to show that she liked him. Alto only met her in episode one. That's why I can't stand Alto being called dense, because face it in that situation anyone would be.

I signed up in the school of its not the destination that's important its the journey. So when I see that a character has done wrong the entire series, I don't care if everything ended up alright because it doesn't erase what they did.

The thing with Ranka is that she looks young, and I'd bet anything that if she looked older, or just wasn't cute people would be a lot less forgiving.

[forgottendiary]

Since manipulation is in the picture, let's talk about attribution

See, most of the time if we attain success be it in sports, school, or hey, singing, we would attribute that success internally to our own personal competency: skills, brains, voice and what have you.

However, if for some reason, we phail at life (e.g. the massacre of people and destruction of a colony ship because the attacker bugs won't listen to you sing), we attribute this to external circumstances: other people manipulating you hence it wasn't really, totally you at fault, other people breaking your heart making you want to die that's why you couldn't really sing well, the designers gave you a really, really, uber ugly slab of green hair, other people don't care, etc, etc, etc.

Originally Posted by wisteria233

The thing with Ranka is that she looks young, and I'd bet anything that if she looked older, or just wasn't cute people would be a lot less forgiving.

Jackpot right there