Kyoto Animation: Studio discussion, speculation, and whatnot.

[Archon_Wing]

Originally Posted by Konakaga

Well they spent more per series, since they don't out source their animation like sunrises tends to do which means more of the profits they enjoy is spent on their staff comparatively.

But isn't it kinda silly to compare them to a giant like Sunrise; what about in comparison to other companies that only sell a couple of thousand per series? I mean, I don't think anyone was trying to do that (not to mention Sunrise puts out far more shows)

I mean, it's interesting to look at, but it's basically just informing me that people die when they are killed.

Well, ok, I got the fact that their way of running business is broken and is losing them money-- they're squandering their profits. That doesn't reflect well on anyone either.

But I don't know where this topic came from though, lol.

[Ithekro]

There was also the point about not having in house writers, either, thus a section of all profits have to go to someone else for licensing which is suspected to be the largest drain of "profits" aside from workforce size. However their sizable income might make up for that enough to be stable...unlike GONZO.

Though from what I've seen, KyoAni is not in competition with Sunrise in terms of what they are animating (in fact KyoAno seem to homage Sunrise materials, especially in Lucky Star. probably because of the direct connections with Bandai). They are more in competition with J.C. Staff, Shaft, DEEN, and the A-1 for the market they seem to be after.

(I also noticed Kaioshin-sama has already been to and left his mark on that article.)

[0utf0xZer0]

Originally Posted by Reckoner

I think the accusations are made because many people equivocate perceived "moe" with otaku bait.

And to an extent it is, but I think a lot of people don't realize how heavily "moe style" used to overlap with shoujo - the first Saimoe winner back in 2002 was Sakura Kinomoto from Cardcaptor Sakura. From what I can tell, Kyoto is just doing the opposite - making a moe work that can be quickly and easily repackaged as shoujo. Hence why some of the fanservice in the manga didn't make it into the anime.

[Ithekro]

The music might help with that one as well, seeing how well they did on the charts. The whole "where did this come from" thing. Retro 60s or 70s style Rock to J-pop I guess?

[Bri]

Originally Posted by Ascaloth

...here's an article written by my Nihon Review colleague Akira, who did manage to get access to the relevant numbers:

[BtNHRV] The Rise of the New Guard

It's not just the revenue gained from sales; it's KyoAni's entire business model. Really, their source of their strength is also their Achilles' heel.

Some comments on the article:

Kyoani may have ten times more staff on fixed contracts then Sunrise. However Kyoani only has 129 employees while Sunrise has 200 (from their corporate websites). It's just that Sunrise has more temps on staff, not that they do more work with less people.

The author somehow thinks that the much greater revenue figures of Sunrise are in part due to efficiency gains from it's employment practises. This is nonsense. Revenue is related to output and does not take cost into consideration. Sunrise produces about three times more anime then Kyoani in a given year and most of it is contract work, the extra income is probably due to royaltees.

The article claims that Kyoani suffered a much greater drop in reported profits in 2008 than Sunrise and blames bad investment decision making since Kyoani is run by poor business men.
Personally, I think a privately owned firm that showed steady growth during the decade (and had just opened a brand new studio in Kyoto) might just be more inclined to make some reservations given the economic downturn. At least compared to a daughter company of a multinational.

In short:
We are dealing with two totally different companies here. Kyoani's most important asset is it's human capital, as the quality of their animation work is their competative edge, their craft. On the other hand Sunrise's main function is to promote existing intellectual properties of, and to develop new ones for, Namco Bandai. Who actually does the animation work is not that important. This difference is reflected in either companies labor policy.

Cost cutting and outsourcing on staff are not an inevitable nor always desirable result of becoming a large studio. Remember, at the top of the anime foodchain is still Ghibli.

[ahelo]

Well Nichijou looks better than Tiger&Bunny (Tiger & Bunny is awesome though). Does that say anything?

[Pocari_Sweat]

Originally Posted by ahelo

Well Nichijou looks better than Tiger&Bunny (Tiger & Bunny is awesome though). Does that say anything?

Not comparable. One's a light comedy gag anime whilst the other is a "western" superhero anime.

[DonQuigleone]

Originally Posted by acejem

Not comparable. One's a light comedy gag anime whilst the other is a "western" superhero anime.

Not easily comparable, perhaps, but I think it's plain to see that Nichijou, from a technical standpoint, is better animated. I'm not sure how to prove it, but Nichijou is smoother, has more independently moving characters in a scene etc.

The only studio that can match Kyoto Animation for quality on TV is probably PA works.

[Malkuth]

Originally Posted by donquigleone

The only studio that can match Kyoto Animation for quality on TV is probably PA works.

What?! Seriously? OK, 4-5 years ago, maybe, but their recent stuff for TV are horrible compared to Sunrise, BONES, PA works, and probably more studios.

As for variety... that would be suicidal... aside from Key/Haruhi fanboys, the only thing they can sell (without overextending themselves financially) are moe-blob shows.

[Reckoner]

Originally Posted by Malkuth

What?! Seriously? OK, 4-5 years ago, maybe, but their recent stuff for TV are horrible compared to Sunrise, BONES, PA works, and probably more studios.

As for variety... that would be suicidal... aside from Key/Haruhi fanboys, the only thing they can sell (without overextending themselves financially) are moe-blob shows.

Pretty much this ^

People are deluding themselves if they are thinking so.

[Pocari_Sweat]

Originally Posted by Reckoner

Pretty much this ^

People are deluding themselves if they are thinking so.

But the characters are so KAWAII.

[Archon_Wing]

28 episodes+1 movie of Haruhi over the last 4 years. >.>

Bastards.

[Reckoner]

Originally Posted by acejem

But the characters are so KAWAII.

But... But... What happens when they stop being so?

[Archon_Wing]

Originally Posted by Reckoner

But... But... What happens when they stop being so?

They get tossed away like garbage and get replaced with new pets. *Points at ISML*

[Klashikari]

Originally Posted by Reckoner

Pretty much this ^

People are deluding themselves if they are thinking so.

It is sort of an oxymoron that you are expecting them to make a change, yet agreeing a comment about "only able to sell Key/haruhi/Moe" stuff.

That being said, although it wasn't as successful as the aforementioned series, FMP is a franchise with a drastic different theme setup that can sell very well.
And once again, the fact it isn't having a sequel is more of a composition problem than marketing issue.

[Archon_Wing]

Heh, so in the end, I guess many of the complaints could boil down to "Where the hell is my FMP?" Pity it didn't sell that great; I wonder if it will sell more now, since their studio name is more notable now.

[Reckoner]

Originally Posted by Klashikari

It is sort of an oxymoron that you are expecting them to make a change, yet agreeing a comment about "only able to sell Key/haruhi/Moe" stuff.

That being said, although it wasn't as successful as the aforementioned series, FMP is a franchise with a drastic different theme setup that can sell very well.
And once again, the fact it isn't having a sequel is more of a composition problem than marketing issue.

It is my error that I quoted the whole post without reading it carefully enough, but what I do agree with is that KyoAni has dropped off in quality these past years on TV shows, and that they lack variety in the first place to make such a claim.

Anyhow, I don't want to imply they can't do something else. They just haven't even tried it in the first place. Though I do feel it's still similar to their other works, I feel Planetarian could provide a nice branching off into other styles if they chose to adapt it.

Edit: Though it might not be an oxymoron to claim so. I mean, most of KyoAni's fan base expects one sort of thing already, and trying to do something else might cause a huge backlash. We won't know unless they tried it though. My desire for their studio is not necessarily one I know will garner them success. What they're doing right now sells pretty well... I wouldn't be an advisor for them or anything..,

[Klashikari]

As much as I can agree the recent productions (namely, Lucky Star and onwards) are arguably less detailed than before, I believe it is more like a "relative" quality regarding the series and the genre itself.
I personally think "over the top" animation is pretty much wasted budget here and there, thus I really can't expect a series like LS/K-on etc being as well animated as FMP TSR or Clannad.

For these kind of series, I believe they put much more emphasis on "ambiant details" (such like passerby moving around in the background etc) and animation (as much as I have basically no love for K-On, I just can't deny the efforts in making the characters "alive" with lots of casual movements).

Of course, I expect you to nudge the issue we got with Haruhi 2009 (and the "K-on ification" of the design), but I believe the animation and ambiant detail point is effective.
If nothing else, Clannad and Clannad After Story are still strong examples of very good productions for TV standards.


As for variety itself, I personally think that they should evaluate their own capabilities for such thing. As much as I would be curious if they were to make a series totally different, I can see why they are working on rather "safe" things on their perspective (things they are -accustomed- to do so).
I can't see a writer making a script for a genre they aren't used to and we all know how horrible some series can turn out because a studio is just doing everything and anything (Who said JC Staff and Studio DEEN?).

[Reckoner]

Originally Posted by Klashikari

As much as I can agree the recent productions (namely, Lucky Star and onwards) are arguably less detailed than before, I believe it is more like a "relative" quality regarding the series and the genre itself.
I personally think "over the top" animation is pretty much wasted budget here and there, thus I really can't expect a series like LS/K-on etc being as well animated as FMP TSR or Clannad.

For these kind of series, I believe they put much more emphasis on "ambiant details" (such like passerby moving around in the background etc) and animation (as much as I have basically no love for K-On, I just can't deny the efforts in making the characters "alive" with lots of casual movements).

It is this very "relative" quality that puts me in disagreement with the original assertion regarding them being at the absolute forefront of quality amongst the anime studios today.

Perhaps I'm stretching it by saying so, given my lack of knowledge regarding what it takes to animate and draw scenes in anime, but can we really say that it is as hard to animate most of the shows KyoAni has done as it is to animate say any number of heavy fighting shows, shows involving lots of quick movement sequences?

I'm aware one of Kyoani's often noted strengths is their ability to pick up the frame rates and provide fluidity in motion... But could they really do the same for series of the nature I just talked about?

That is one reason I find it hard to compare say a Code Geass to a Haruhi or Clannad. They're just different. I do think KyoAni is damn near the best there is for TV shows of a particular kind of genre, but to say that they are in general is going beyond what I find I am able to agree with.

Originally Posted by Klashikari

Of course, I expect you to nudge the issue we got with Haruhi 2009 (and the "K-on ification" of the design), but I believe the animation and ambiant detail point is effective.
If nothing else, Clannad and Clannad After Story are still strong examples of very good productions for TV standards.

While I disliked the art style of haruhi 2009, I can't say too much about its actual fluidity and details. However, regardless of style, I didn't get the impression that it was as sharp or nicely done as Haruhi 2006.

Originally Posted by Klashikari

As for variety itself, I personally think that they should evaluate their own capabilities for such thing. As much as I would be curious if they were to make a series totally different, I can see why they are working on rather "safe" things on their perspective (things they are -accustomed- to do so).
I can't see a writer making a script for a genre they aren't used to and we all know how horrible some series can turn out because a studio is just doing everything and anything (Who said JC Staff and Studio DEEN?).

To me it's like watching some of the great actors in Hollywood. Some of them are great "character" actors that are able to portray one type of role really well, and make a living off of it. Morgan Freeman is an example of this. But then there are people like Robert Di Niro, who I feel is a truly spectacular actor capable of branching off in almost every genre imaginable.

Similarly, many VA's in the industry have different ranges, and abilities. I hear many criticize Aya Hirano for not being able to sound too different in all her roles, while praising other VA's for being able to do what she cannot.

I suppose at this point, I want to know if KyoAni is a one trick pony or not. It's their decision, but if they show no visible effort to be any different, then I can't really sit here and accept it. It would just be a clear lack of creative desire on their part, which is something often sorely lacking in the entertainment industry.

[Ithekro]

Isn't there always a huge backlash in the fanbases every new show KyoAni puts out since Haruhi aired in 2006?

If it is Kanon, it was, "Why is this being remade from 2002 instead of more Haruhi?"

For Lucky Star it was, "Why is the art lesser verses Haruhi and Kanon" Alternately, very early on "Why can't I get those 8 minutes of my life back because of that Food Anime?" And later "Why are there so many Haruhi references?"

For Clannad it was "More Key? Why not more FMP or Haruhi yet?"

Clannad: After Story didn't get as much flak that I remember.

Munto was a bump in the road between Clannad and K-On...few people even noticed because Haruhi-chan was on the web....even that got backlashes (aside from the "Nice Boat" false start).

For K-On...well that got a lot of different ones "Where is Little Busters?" "It this taking away budget from my Haruhi", "Why still no FMP" "Why not more Lucky Star?" "Why aren't we getting 'God Knows' quality instrament animations?", the list for K-On goes on and on.

When Haruhi 2009 came out, well there was a lot of talk going on...mostly questions because there was zero information coming out it seemed. Then Endless Eight happened.... Oddly I find it funny because it is just so rediculous when you tell someone about it and explain that it was eight weeks of the same episode...but draws differently, sometimes with different scenes, each and every week. As an example of KyoAni's animationa and art range, Endless Eight is actually a very good sampling of talent. As a plot device...not so much, unless you consider getting the Disappearance movie as the payoff.

Nichijou is getting the same treatment, lots of "Where is my FMP? Where is Little Busters?, Where is Planetarium?, Where is Season 3 of Haruhi (or Season 2 depending on who you ask or how you view 2009 airing of Haruhi)? Why not just continue Lucky Star instead?" About the only question not asked is "Why not more K-On?' because most people know there is a movie coming, and they need time to get more source material anyway.
I don't imagine it will be any different for the next KyoAni project after Nichijou, be it something this fall, or whatever comes out after the K-On movie this December. Unless it is FMP Fumoffu 2...I can't see as many complaints about that one over more Haruhi or Key products.