Romance in Macross (Take 2)

[justavisitor]

@karice67
Thanks for the summary!!! That's an interesting discussion...i never thought about it before

[cheesie]

Sir Dex : Kinky! :-D (For general knowledge, Sir Dex used to be the Kind, Gentleman Seme before his escapades with Tak clearly brought on this little spicy flavor, how exciting!)

Originally Posted by raile

(And I still cannot get over how Ranka only thought of her one-sided feelings for Alto and her heartbreak as she sang Aimo--after Michel died! I could forgive if it was some random extra, but Michel! That part really ticked me off. Your friend just died and you think about that?! @%#^%@!!! I'm sorry, I consider that as utter bullshit.)

I did get that impression as well, but, to be fair, the pace surrounding that episode came off as slightly strange, mostly due to the juxtaposition of scenes and pacing. Sometimes, the scenes play off as if the team was trying to get to complete their shopping checklists while looking at their watches. This had occurred quite a bit throughout the story as well, though Episode 21 was more obvious. Considering that the series is well swerving into the final stages, I wouldn't be surprised if that were the case.

Take the Ai-kun x Ranka scene, for instance. Having finally been reunited with Ai-kun after a while, notice that Ranka didn't even bat an eyelash seeing how her little pal had evolved into a species that the group had spent 90% of their time fighting against. She then runs to Alto, pleads with him to switch sides and come with her and Vajra Ai-kun after its cousins had killed his best friend, and proceeds to fly off into space; she clearly arrived to some sort of revelation that brought on the change of heart, all in the space of two minutes behind that tree which wasn't shown to us. As a result, the entire execution came off as very awkward; it was like a forceful push saying,"Okay, okay, stop loitering around, let's get things moving now."

Edit: Beechnatsu is obviously hoping I would hop into her arms after stalking me like a sad panda, but sadly no, Natsu, you have your own waifu to play with. :E

Originally Posted by wisteria

to everyone that had to put with that, I'm sorry.

You are most forgiven if you join my harem!

[wisteria233]

Originally Posted by karice67

to wisteria233

Spoiler for just 2 short points, but for everyone else's sake...:

I could point out multiple places in your most recent post showing that you haven't read what I've actually written. Or draw up an argument tree to illustrate where I feel my arguments connect. But I won't, for your sake and mine. From our exchanges, and other posters' comments, I don't think I can have a reasonable discussion with you, so I won't try to air any disagreements I might have with your statements or arguments in future.

Finally, I honestly haven't meant to insult or attack you personally (as opposed to your arguments), so I'm sorry if what I've written makes you feel that I have. I'm also sorry for taking up your time so far. If you think I'm not being sincere, well, even then, there's nothing more I can say.

Spoiler for @ Karice:

Considering that my mind is elsewhere right now (on my essay and now tutoring), and because of that I actually answered you half-halfheartedly. I really don't have the time right now to really give anyone a well thought out response. Honestly looking back at my arguments I don't think they make sense, either. So for that I'm sorry for wasting your time.

Really, you don't worry about offending me. Don't worry about mistaking me for a guy, it happens a lot.

to everyone that had to put with that, I'm sorry.


@cheesie sounds tempting

[ippus]

Originally Posted by magnuskn

Actually, while she was not put in the situation that she would die from illness, she was put on the spot quite a bit during episodes 20+21 and cracked pretty much, then fled from Frontier. I think I can definitely say that she did not mature in a way even remotely comparable to Sheryl. Granted, Sheryl did have more time to come to grips with her condition, but the difference is that for Sheryl there already was a solid foundation of being mature in her decisions, which Ranka never had and never did aquire.

Yet I feel time really was very important. Sheryl's case differed even more in that nobody but Mikhail and Alto were willing to look into her situation. In a way she got ditched by most of the characters in the series, either out of ambition, or the need to be on the Ranka ship instead (mostly the Ranka ship). Sheryl was a character that was forced to grow at an ungodly rate by circumstance.

My argument was never that Sheryl was as or more immature than Ranka. My argument was merely that immaturity on its own is not a legitimate reason to deny a character any sort of relationship. You don't always have to grow before getting into one, and I feel like you're just arguing for the sake of denying Ranka any good a word without considering the context of what I am discussing.

Originally Posted by magnuskn

Actually, if Sheryl would have taken her pills and stopped using her enhanced powers, she would probably have lived for a few years without dying. At least that is what can be reasonably inferred from events in episode 23, in regards to what Alto says after putting Sheryl to bed and in her conversation with Luca.

In the end, your comparison doesn't work too well, since one ( Rankas ) is under direct duress and time constraints. Sheryls decision is more deliberate, although the emotional strain must have been immense, too.

If you want to make a more meaningful direct comparison, you'd have to take go with either a.) highly stressfull situations under time constraints ( the Vajra larva attack on Frontier would be the best, since both of them were caught up in the situation ) or b.) stressfull situations on a more deliberate time scale.

On the other hand wouldn't that simply mean her death would be long and dragged out? Even with the pills Sheryl gets sick and feverish. She was also- as mentioned before- ditched by everyone. Her source of comfort (Alto) in her understanding has a high possibility of loving someone else. On those grounds alone I don't think anyone would opt for living for the sake of living as opposed to living short for a cause.

Originally Posted by magnuskn

What? No, I do not think taking a reluctant guy out for a date is "crazy".

And the action with sneaking out of the hospital was more along the lines of "desperately in love and lonely". And stubborn. But not "crazy".

Your definition of crazy definitely is miles away from mine.

She blackmailed him by grabbing his charm and throwing them in with her boobs. No I don't think this is particularly normal. Adorable for anime but definitely nuts. It doesn't have to always be a bad thing =_= but it's nuts all the same.

The explanations you give for Sheryl's actions can very easily be applied to the idiotic things Ranka has done- in that you're purposely trying to understand her point of view and sympathizing. It's a heavily biased viewpoint.

Originally Posted by magnuskn

I think we are really talking about different definitions of "immature". For me, Sheryls whole personality is enthusiastic, if inexperienced due to her upbringing. She still has an impressive depth of character, the desire to help others and, even if she is a bit arrogant, the ability to not look down on others. Her "take charge" personality is very sympathic, to say the least.

She has a very good balance of being cheery and young, with the contrast being serious about her work and displaying impressive leadership qualities. When tragedy hits, she loses a lot of her good cheer but she can rely on the solid foundations she already had to catch her fall. After losing it for a short time when she learns of her illness, she gets on her feet and makes the best of it.


Compare that to Ranka, who stumbles from one lucky break to the next, but never really seems to learn from her experiences, farming out all responsibilities to the other people around her.

I disagree with the viewpoint of Ranka. Let's remember, her lucky break didn't occur until Mikhail made her purposely step out. She truly BOOMED when she jumped head first into a dangerous situation to sing a birthday present to Alto. Whilst I do not agree with her intentions, she did do her load of work, and suffered her own load of disappointments in the industry (Carrot song + canceled talk show).

I also do not agree that Ranka "farm[s] out all responsibilities to the other people around her", rather they step up and stick her inside a protective bubble. It was never her intention to be sheltered, if anything she spent much of her Idol growing time being set away from her friends and family. She did things on her own, she was trying to learn.

Sure, she sought out Alto repeatedly during the process, but the fault isn't in her seeking help. Her fault in the situation revolves around her inability to realize that Alto isn't quite as good a listener as she thinks he is, and that the majority advice he spouts actually isn't referring to her.

When Sheryl realized she was doomed to die was was ready to give up. It's why Alto got angry int he first place, and it was his direct involvement in the matter that made her change her mind. It wasn't at all this magical sense of maturity you keep talking about. She didn't jsut think "Oh well i must not be like this!!!" and simply dealt with it. Alto supported her, and she found the will to live.

Like Ranka, if Alto wasn't there I feel Sheryl would have simply faded away.

Of course I recognize that Ranka is in a different position to Sheryl, and that she had the support of everyone whereas Sheryl did not, when her initial breakdown occurred- but I refer back to my first argument, in that Ranka was not at all given sufficient enough time to deal with her situation. Instead she was given more problems, like a malfunctioning song.

As for my definition of "immaturity", I see this as any childish thought, behavior or action a character exudes. Again I repeat, I never implied that Sheryl was at the same level of maturity (or less) than Ranka. I have always acknowledged that Sheryl has been more mature in comparison to Ranka. That was never the argument and never will be.

I merely said Sheryl, when not stricken with life threatening health problems, has had many moments as a crazy, cheerful and child-like girl with crazy ass antics. This was never meant to be a bad thing. Ever. So why you're so defensive about this I don't really understand.

Originally Posted by magnuskn

If I talk about Sheryl being mature and Ranka being immature, I do not mean that both are having happy days and behave like young girls at some times.

I mean that one of them is capable of learning and adapting and the other one didn't even try to comprehend the lessons of life given to her and when she finds herself with the foundations crumbling under her, she is not capable of dealing with it.

I feel I've explained myself enough about this statement but I'll give a quick roundup.

I never said Ranka > Sheryl in maturity.

I believe Sheryl > maturity.

I don't think Sheryl does not have immature moments.

I think Ranka needed time to grow and that the series did not give her sufficient time OR environment to catch up the Sheryl.

I think the idea that Ranka hasn't tried to grow or simply hasn't grown at all is bullpucky. She tried, she really did, but her full time motivation was blindingly Alto-centric which wasn't very healthy for her.

I think Ranka should not be denied a relationship solely on the basis that she's not completely emotionally developed, but rather the importance should be set on whether or not a character is capable of making her grow, has the right amount of chemistry, and ultimately is interested in her.

Originally Posted by magnuskn

Well, I got pity for Ranka, which is about the best I can do. Because it's a pity that she alone of all characters in Macross Frontier was never allowed to grow beyond a pathetic moeblob "Save me Alto-kun!" character. Well, Nanase got it worse, but she was not even remotely a mainstay of the series.

She could have been better and I still am debating myself if Kawamori did intentionally screw her over, like Crusader asserts, or if it was a failure of the writers, due to either bad writing or monetary calculations.

I tend to lean in the direction of Kawamori deliberately disassembling the whole "moe" character type, because the writing for most other characters was bloody fantastic.

No, Ranka did start to grow, just at a far slower rate and ended midway into the average anime character growth line.

And I'm not really sure what you're talking about seeing as:

Luca simply skipped from moe blob to I HART U NANASE SO I GO FAITO.
Mikhail skipped development and jumped IN ONE FULL EPISODE from cowardly Klan Klan denier to cowardly "I confess only as I die".
Nanase was Nanase.
Ozma got good lines but he's was a sub character nonetheless.
Kathy...lol Kathy ]D
Burera remained my happy manslut to the very end.


The only character that developed were Alto, Sheryl & supposedly Grace (Which I'm still iffy about since I didn't really find her all that great but I suppose that's just a matter of opinion) with Ranka being a slow contender.

As for deliberate disassembling, I'm not completely sure. There were so many gaping plot flaws that a lot of the changes in the movie and the ridiculous number of drama CD merchandise was actually understandable. Then again I don't hold Kawamori to such a high regard as most of the people on this forum.




@raile: My sentiments echoes cheesie completely.

And yes it pissed me off very much too XD
I think it was like the basis of every anti-Ranka argument I roared whenever given chance hahaha

[raile]

@fromage,

Yeah well, even for the sake of pacing or the juxtaposition of scenes, it made Ranka look bad. "My song didn't reach him. D'8 "

Well...boo hoo.

[Amalia]

Ranka didn't have the X factor that's why it didn't reach him LOl...(Oh well I slept late last night so...)

[Natsuki Hyuga]

@cheesie

I loled on your fail edit B)b And I thought it was the reverse, you stalking me being yuri to me...

...

Errr. SWAMPY. COME BACK. PLEASE!!11!1 ;;

@wisteria

Don't. Save yourself!! She will -tries to think lol-ly but fails- slave you off with her fangirling until you can't face a cheese without fearing that cheese is going to fangirl at you! TTxTT

It's like...

Spoiler for FAAAABULOUS cheese:

[/url]

Before she took it in the wrong way, my sadistism ≠ my proclamation of love 8)b

[magnuskn]

Originally Posted by ippus

Yet I feel time really was very important. Sheryl's case differed even more in that nobody but Mikhail and Alto were willing to look into her situation. In a way she got ditched by most of the characters in the series, either out of ambition, or the need to be on the Ranka ship instead (mostly the Ranka ship). Sheryl was a character that was forced to grow at an ungodly rate by circumstance.

My argument was never that Sheryl was as or more immature than Ranka. My argument was merely that immaturity on its own is not a legitimate reason to deny a character any sort of relationship. You don't always have to grow before getting into one, and I feel like you're just arguing for the sake of denying Ranka any good a word without considering the context of what I am discussing.

Since when were we talking about denying Ranka a relationship? WTF? I think we are having two completely different discussions going on.

Originally Posted by ippus

On the other hand wouldn't that simply mean her death would be long and dragged out? Even with the pills Sheryl gets sick and feverish. She was also- as mentioned before- ditched by everyone. Her source of comfort (Alto) in her understanding has a high possibility of loving someone else. On those grounds alone I don't think anyone would opt for living for the sake of living as opposed to living short for a cause.

Nobody knows for sure how protracted or severe Sheryls illness would have gotten before she died. Alto, in any case, swore to stay by her side until the very end and he is a man of his words.

Originally Posted by ippus

She blackmailed him by grabbing his charm and throwing them in with her boobs. No I don't think this is particularly normal. Adorable for anime but definitely nuts. It doesn't have to always be a bad thing =_= but it's nuts all the same.

No, it's not. We obviously have very different definitions of nuts or immaturity.

Originally Posted by ippus

The explanations you give for Sheryl's actions can very easily be applied to the idiotic things Ranka has done- in that you're purposely trying to understand her point of view and sympathizing. It's a heavily biased viewpoint.

No, they can't. In this case you got your priorities not straight. One side is a girl in a not dangerous situation going a bit wild to have a nice day. The other side is a girl in a totally dangerous situation spazzing out completely over not-relevant-to-the-situation things.

Originally Posted by ippus

I disagree with the viewpoint of Ranka. Let's remember, her lucky break didn't occur until Mikhail made her purposely step out. She truly BOOMED when she jumped head first into a dangerous situation to sing a birthday present to Alto. Whilst I do not agree with her intentions, she did do her load of work, and suffered her own load of disappointments in the industry (Carrot song + canceled talk show).

This is in regards to the first half of the series. Until up to episode 17, Ranka did grow and adapt. It is only after that point at which she regressed as a character, which is where all the ire of the detractors of Ranka comes from. Sure, a lot of people were leaning towards Sheryl before that, but the real anti-Ranka resentiments started at episode 19, and deservedly so.

Originally Posted by ippus

I also do not agree that Ranka "farm[s] out all responsibilities to the other people around her", rather they step up and stick her inside a protective bubble. It was never her intention to be sheltered, if anything she spent much of her Idol growing time being set away from her friends and family. She did things on her own, she was trying to learn.

Sure, she sought out Alto repeatedly during the process, but the fault isn't in her seeking help. Her fault in the situation revolves around her inability to realize that Alto isn't quite as good a listener as she thinks he is, and that the majority advice he spouts actually isn't referring to her.

Ranka repeatedly gives away her right to decide in lieu of running either to Alto for advice or simply letting other people tell her what to do ( Grace, for example ). The only moment where she really made her own decision was in episode 12, and that was pretty much the high point of her character arc. In the middle of the series. Not exactly a shining example of character development.

Originally Posted by ippus

When Sheryl realized she was doomed to die was was ready to give up. It's why Alto got angry int he first place, and it was his direct involvement in the matter that made her change her mind. It wasn't at all this magical sense of maturity you keep talking about. She didn't jsut think "Oh well i must not be like this!!!" and simply dealt with it. Alto supported her, and she found the will to live.

Like Ranka, if Alto wasn't there I feel Sheryl would have simply faded away.

I think it is rather more complicated than that. It was a combination of a.) the shock that she was going to die young and b.) her wanting to protect Alto from the pain of seeing someone close to him die.

If she had faded away without Altos motivation... well, in fact it was Klan and Michael who pushed her into talking to Alto, so it is not as easy as Alto = the saviour. And that really isn't the point, either. Because it was made very clear that trying to go at it alone is not the right way

But the problem with Ranka is that she is basically incapable of making her own decisions, which is the other extreme of the equation.

Originally Posted by ippus

As for my definition of "immaturity", I see this as any childish thought, behavior or action a character exudes. Again I repeat, I never implied that Sheryl was at the same level of maturity (or less) than Ranka. I have always acknowledged that Sheryl has been more mature in comparison to Ranka. That was never the argument and never will be.

I merely said Sheryl, when not stricken with life threatening health problems, has had many moments as a crazy, cheerful and child-like girl with crazy ass antics. This was never meant to be a bad thing. Ever. So why you're so defensive about this I don't really understand.

Because my understanding of it was so far that you did compare carefree behaviour in unstressful situations to spazzing out over an misunderstanding while around you your city burns.

I stand duly corrected. Although I will still say that Sheryls behaviour early in the series is far from my definition of "nuts".

Originally Posted by ippus

I feel I've explained myself enough about this statement but I'll give a quick roundup.

I never said Ranka > Sheryl in maturity.

I believe Sheryl > maturity.

I don't think Sheryl does not have immature moments.

I think Ranka needed time to grow and that the series did not give her sufficient time OR environment to catch up the Sheryl.

I think the idea that Ranka hasn't tried to grow or simply hasn't grown at all is bullpucky. She tried, she really did, but her full time motivation was blindingly Alto-centric which wasn't very healthy for her.

I honestly believe that Ranka was growing. Until episode 12. But after that she threw it all away, by being subservient to Grace and Leon and by focusing all her world on Alto.

Originally Posted by ippus

I think Ranka should not be denied a relationship solely on the basis that she's not completely emotionally developed, but rather the importance should be set on whether or not a character is capable of making her grow, has the right amount of chemistry, and ultimately is interested in her.

I wasn't making the argument ( at this time ) that Ranka should be denied a relationship. And I don't really have the RL time now to make such an argument and I believe I already did make it before.

Originally Posted by ippus

No, Ranka did start to grow, just at a far slower rate and ended midway into the average anime character growth line.

Disagreed. She started to grow as fast as the others, but regressed in the last quarter of the series to a point where she actively was worse off than in the beginning.

Originally Posted by ippus

And I'm not really sure what you're talking about seeing as:

Luca simply skipped from moe blob to I HART U NANASE SO I GO FAITO.
Mikhail skipped development and jumped IN ONE FULL EPISODE from cowardly Klan Klan denier to cowardly "I confess only as I die".
Nanase was Nanase.
Ozma got good lines but he's was a sub character nonetheless.
Kathy...lol Kathy ]D
Burera remained my happy manslut to the very end.

All secondary characters. No direct comparison is really possible on that account, because their story arcs by nature of the show had to be abridged. I was still impressed by what they got, although Luca also was not handled too good, the shift was a bit too sudden. There were hints of him noticing that Nanase wasn't taking him seriously as a man in episode 14, but after that they directly went to him "fighting for Nanase" in episode 20.

Michaels story was told much more gradually, so I really don't see your point there. It was told repeatedly that he was too much of an emotional coward to face the feelings he had about Klan. Him giving his "death confession" plays perfectly into that whole arc. If you missed that, you did not pay good attention to his story.

Originally Posted by ippus

The only character that developed were Alto, Sheryl & supposedly Grace (Which I'm still iffy about since I didn't really find her all that great but I suppose that's just a matter of opinion) with Ranka being a slow contender.

Graces plot was well done, but still a secondary one. The only three which can be analyzed for a full plot development are the three mains, for the rest they took shorthands and they did that well.

Originally Posted by ippus

As for deliberate disassembling, I'm not completely sure. There were so many gaping plot flaws that a lot of the changes in the movie and the ridiculous number of drama CD merchandise was actually understandable. Then again I don't hold Kawamori to such a high regard as most of the people on this forum.

I... really don't see how there were so many gaping plot holes. Maybe you want to enlighten me towards the whole lot of them?

[BetoJR]

You people are weird...

[KaoruLia]

... It keeps the forum alive. *munches on popcorn*

[Amalia]

yep I agree *mind if I join you in the pop corn eating?*

[Edge Meltdown]

is there butter in it also? *back-scratching* still waiting for someone to come up with more good arguments...

[Swampstorm]

@ippus: When Sheryl found out that she was going to die, she saw no point in continuing her singing career. Sheryl's realization in the shelter wasn't that she had it in herself to succeed, but rather that she was needed by the people around her. It never was an issue of Sheryl's belief in herself - it was about finding meaning in her singing.

@magnus: To this day, I've never been able to figure out Crusader's line of reasoning when he described Ranka as 'Kawamori's critique on moe'.

I seem to have missed the development which would have explained Michael's confession to Klan. It was probably because I happened to blink when they showed the swingset scene in episode nine.

@Minion: I fully support your yuri relationship with cheesie.

Originally Posted by cheesie

juxtaposition

Every time that you pretend to write a real post, I'm forced to juxtapose my face and my palm.

Originally Posted by DeX-kun

Throw on some kicky leather outfits and I'll think about it

I always knew that you had Sheryl fan potential.



I must say, though, between Lord Raileon, Tak, and cheesie, your harem is starting to develop a bit of a running theme.

[Foreshadow]

This is why I love this Forum <3

[magnuskn]

Originally Posted by Swampstorm

@magnus: To this day, I've never been able to figure out Crusader's line of reasoning when he described Ranka as 'Kawamori's critique on moe'.

Really? I think it was pretty clear, with the running theme being that Ranka being innocent, incapable of adapting to a more complex world and dependent on others, i.e. moe, was a comment of Kawamori that all those traits which are appreciated by a sub-set of anime viewers are a huge impediment to a character being able to deal with the complexities of a world which demands adult decisions.

Originally Posted by Swampstorm

I seem to have missed the development which would have explained Michael's confession to Klan. It was probably because I happened to blink when they showed the swingset scene in episode nine.

Early on it was shown that Klan had feelings for Michael and, to my viewers eyes, it was shown that Michael was aware of that but was running away from those feelings. He himself vocalized those same hints in episode 19, together with his reasons for not wanting to expose himself to a serious relationship with Klan.

I think it was pretty clear to see, and certainly not relegated to only showing a swingset in one episode. If you try to reduce their relationship to that one shot, I think you do the characters and their fans a disservice.

[cheesie]

Beechnatsu is still pretending that she isn't following in my footsteps.

Originally Posted by Swampstorm

Every time that you pretend to write a real post, I'm forced to juxtapose my face and my palm.

I'll have your insolent self know that my English vocabulary does consist of words other than 'KYAAAAA', 'SQUEEEE', or the ever affectionate 'GUH', after all it's where half of your ideas came from!

(Now it really was accidental that the word seeped in there, as it was being parodied up and down for three weeks now. Fun times.)

And ah, the childhood friend argument, interesting, let's see how this takes off.

[Natsuki Hyuga]

... I thought you were the one who have been trying to put the bouquets of roses in front of my house 8|

Also be happy that I called your masta dear husbando (not waifu since... You have more tsun-waifu material cheezu) back with my plea for help!

On topic here!:

Anyone know when is the DVD/BD release for the movie though? I'm really avoiding the spoiler so I got no idea how the heck the movie is alternating the romance. Either that or someone can give me possible summary of it? -Is happily following another series so there, I couldn't even follow up with this thread ;~;

[raeryne]

Originally Posted by BetoJR

You people are weird...

Originally Posted by KaoruLia

... It keeps the forum alive. *munches on popcorn*

Originally Posted by Amalia

yep I agree *mind if I join you in the pop corn eating?*

Originally Posted by DMC3alpha

is there butter in it also? *back-scratching* still waiting for someone to come up with more good arguments...

I certainly LOVED these!!!LOL!

By the way...barbeque-flavored popcorn for me please!!! *stretches out hand to KaoruLia*

[ippus]

Originally Posted by magnuskn

Since when were we talking about denying Ranka a relationship? WTF? I think we are having two completely different discussions going on.

If you bothered to read rather than attack any inkling of a pro-ranka sentiment on this forum you'd notice wisteria said so, which is where the discussion of maturity began in the first place >_>

Yes I am annoyed when I write this specific sentiment seeing as I feel like I'm being accused of something I didn't do and being asked to explain against something I believe in. >_________________> *grumble*

Spoiler for For Magnuskn: It's too frekkin long:

Originally Posted by magnuskn

Nobody knows for sure how protracted or severe Sheryls illness would have gotten before she died. Alto, in any case, swore to stay by her side until the very end and he is a man of his words.

Why is that even an issue. For her the guilt of keeping him around out of her own selfishness was far more painful than letting him go. It's why she gave such a brave front when he was off to save Ranka for the last time. What more, if the length of her life is unknown to everyone, how do you even CLAIM her lack of chugging down pills is even relevant!?

Originally Posted by magnuskn

No, it's not. We obviously have very different definitions of nuts or immaturity.

Then please explain yours, because so far your only definition of immaturity seems to be Ranka = immature, doesn't do anything, is nuts and the scum of the earth so Sheryl isn't immature at all.

Originally Posted by magnuskn

No, they can't. In this case you got your priorities not straight. One side is a girl in a not dangerous situation going a bit wild to have a nice day. The other side is a girl in a totally dangerous situation spazzing out completely over not-relevant-to-the-situation things.

This is in regards to the first half of the series. Until up to episode 17, Ranka did grow and adapt. It is only after that point at which she regressed as a character, which is where all the ire of the detractors of Ranka comes from. Sure, a lot of people were leaning towards Sheryl before that, but the real anti-Ranka resentiments started at episode 19, and deservedly so.

If you're only going to use the end part of the show to justify this sentiment then frankly it's an unfair comparison to begin with. Sheryl was NEVER put in a situation where she CAN cause legitimate harm to the fleet or the people around her. In the series she had almost no speakable powers and her earrings were a JOKE next to what Ranka's glowing womb can do.

While I wasn't happy with happened it still doesn't make the comparison any less unfair =_=

And as I have previously mentioned, who is more immature was never an issue for me >_>;

Originally Posted by magnuskn

Ranka repeatedly gives away her right to decide in lieu of running either to Alto for advice or simply letting other people tell her what to do ( Grace, for example ). The only moment where she really made her own decision was in episode 12, and that was pretty much the high point of her character arc. In the middle of the series. Not exactly a shining example of character development.

I...can't...believe you are even making this argument.
Let's start with Alto. Ranka did not listen to Alto in terms of her singing career. She WANTED something and simply sought him for confirmation.

There is a difference.

In regards to her selling out her Aimo song; asides from her Vajira cramps there was pretty much NO (I repeat for emphasis, NO) reason for Ranka to feel anything otherwise than proud about her predicament. Alto's words EASED HER WORRIES. IT'S WHAT NORMAL PEOPLE WITH FRIENDS DO. They ask and simply look for comfort.

As for Grace, really? Are you seriously telling a 16 year old girl to go against the government begging you to sing for the protection of the colony XD? Really? Truly? Even if they are forcing you a new manager, do you honestly say no the the guys with the military trying to protect your livelihood?

...Really?

And let's look at the times she DID listen to someone. She listened to Mikhail and managed to up her singing career right? Also let's look at the times she went against other people's judgments...

Hn.

I VAGUELY remember Ozma emphatically saying "NO" to her singing career. Did she listen then? I also VAGUELY remember Alto shrieking at her not to go with Ai-kun. Did she listen then?

As for Burera, whether he was supportive or not would have meant jack shit. TO Ranka he is TRANSPORTATION. Being a cuddly bear is just a plus.

I said what I said for one reason- Alto's half dreamy babbling never did anything good for Ranka. Unlike with when he's talking with Sheryl's problems, where he scolds her for things and feels awe for others, he just gives her vaguely supportive rallying that was more for his own thoughts rather than her own. It's what ultimately let her troubled mind at ease, but that is really not HER fault =_=

Originally Posted by magnuskn

I think it is rather more complicated than that. It was a combination of a.) the shock that she was going to die young and b.) her wanting to protect Alto from the pain of seeing someone close to him die.

If she had faded away without Altos motivation... well, in fact it was Klan and Michael who pushed her into talking to Alto, so it is not as easy as Alto = the saviour. And that really isn't the point, either. Because it was made very clear that trying to go at it alone is not the right way

But the problem with Ranka is that she is basically incapable of making her own decisions, which is the other extreme of the equation.

But the fact of the matter is Sheryl DID have Alto who really WAS a reason for her to live. What more HER songs don't cause the Vajira to go on RAMPAGE.

I love how you say other people are simplifying things when you just assume Ranka doesn't do anything. Ranka DOES make her own decisions. The problem is these decisions she makes either comes across poorly (Bye Bye Alto, I'm leaving with my bug whose kind just slaughtered your best friend) or happen to be made after everyone irons out any of her worries with automated praises.

I put emphasis on the role of Mikhail constantly because he's is a shining example of what Ranka needed, someone who talked to her normally and didn't just assume everything she does is adorable and love worthy. It allows her to come with the RIGHT conclusions.

Ranka is capable of doing it, but her environment makes her a complete idiot.

Originally Posted by magnuskn

(...)
I honestly believe that Ranka was growing. Until episode 12. But after that she threw it all away, by being subservient to Grace and Leon and by focusing all her world on Alto.
(...)
Disagreed. She started to grow as fast as the others, but regressed in the last quarter of the series to a point where she actively was worse off than in the beginning.
(...)
I... really don't see how there were so many gaping plot holes. Maybe you want to enlighten me towards the whole lot of them?

The thing is for like what, 70% of the show Ranka lived in a fairly ordinary lifestyle. Big issues like deciding she is truly in love, the possibility of losing Alto completely to someone else, her song malfunctioning, the 'loss' of two members in the tight knit friendship group causing it to scatter, her lovely pet turning out to be one of the enemy and leaving Frontier happened in ONE fell swoop. That's an unreasonable amount of plot twists in one go. To add to that she didn't exactly have a lot of episodes to catch her breath or deal with the issues one by one.

This is just very BAD pacing management. Before Ranka could even figure anything out she was captured, used, and pushed into the finale. The issue isn't regression at all.

As for plot holes- until the point of which the show occurs, Ranka has no life. At all. Sure she was saved by Ozma and everything, but she has no friends. It's just assumed Nanase is her friend but they are in completely different schools. What did she do in the other one? Hide in a corner? Even at the beginning she went to watch the Sheryl show by herself. How much of a tragic loser IS she o_o

And whatever happened to her trauma? It happens once and she never recedes. It was literally a half-assed excused to get Alto involved.

And there's the case of Burera. He appeared on numerous occasions as essentially a villain, but all of a sudden Frontier embraces him and puts him in command of their precious songstress of hope? Do they honestly have that little faith in their own military personnel?

There were many other issues I had with the series (that I'll have to remember cause there were really a lot ._.;; ) which was why I never hyped about Kawamori's ingeniousness as everyone else seemed to do; The anime itself was only barely decent for me only with really awesome songs and a fun love triangle/internet community.

Originally Posted by magnuskn

All secondary characters. No direct comparison is really possible on that account, because their story arcs by nature of the show had to be abridged. I was still impressed by what they got

(...)

Michaels story was told much more gradually, so I really don't see your point there. It was told repeatedly that he was too much of an emotional coward to face the feelings he had about Klan. Him giving his "death confession" plays perfectly into that whole arc. If you missed that, you did not pay good attention to his story.

Graces plot was well done, but still a secondary one. The only three which can be analyzed for a full plot development are the three mains, for the rest they took shorthands and they did that well.

But wasn't your claim that Ranka had less development than anyone else in the show? Also doesn't your explanation of Mikhail's role actually saying he remained static...?

@Swampstorm: But then it's still not a legitimate +1 for the whole Sheryl = better than Ranka campaign (Which I digress, I am FOR anything Sheryl-sama. She is my fictional queen and I shall love her forever and ever amen. You know, just in case the pages of of pro-Sheryl rants, anti-Ranka rants, Sheryl Sig + animated white bunny display picture and a frekkin art book cover of nothing but Sheryl wasn't obvious enough.) Seeing as Sheryl's highest point in the show involved having Alto's fully fledged support, and not having Ranka's crucial insecurity with her singing.

Ranka watched her song cause destruction before her very eyes. She also saw the backside of a guy she was about to confess to, hugging another girl.

I would never condone what Ranka says, but I think if she was given a more reasonable sounding script, her actions actually wouldn't have been hateful. A lot of what I hated about her came from her inability to word things well, or inability to explain herself in crucial moments. Like how it's widely assumed that Alto is incapable of making his mind up due to his inability to voice exactly what he's thinking, Ranka sounds and seems like a total idiot for the stupid things she says >_> (Or maybe I just find anything Megumi Nakajima says annoying and hateful. Iunno I started hating Ranka more while playing Macross Ultimate Frontier. Her voice really grates on me;;; )

When you really think about what she does though, a lot of it is really inevitable or surprisingly reasonable considering the context?





Sheryl-sama I love how straightforward you are.

[Swampstorm]

@ippus: Take it easy. You don't need to give out your Sheryl credentials before stating your opinions in here, contrary to popular belief.

I'm not saying that Alto's support was unnecessary, but keep in mind that his original idea of "support" was to have Sheryl stay back at home so that he could take care of her. It was never about Sheryl finding the confidence to sing - it was about finding a reason to sing. By developing relationships with the people around her, she found that reason. In that regard, Alto's support was vital.

I don't really see Ranka as evil, so you're preaching to the choir in that regard. I do think that she runs out of steam in the second half by virtue of reaching the pinnicle of her career too early, but that's more of a story flaw than a character flaw.

The problem isn't that Ranka is unreasonable. Being reasonable tends to be boring. The problem is that she isn't unreasonable enough.

Originally Posted by magnuskn

Really? I think it was pretty clear, with the running theme being that Ranka being innocent, incapable of adapting to a more complex world and dependent on others, i.e. moe, was a comment of Kawamori that all those traits which are appreciated by a sub-set of anime viewers are a huge impediment to a character being able to deal with the complexities of a world which demands adult decisions.

That strikes me as more of a generalization on the part of the viewer than a critique on the part of the writer. If you encountered a beautiful person who was unable to make decisions, would you reach the conclusion that beauty is an impediment to decision-making?

Another problem is that moe is a subjective quality. If you personally don't regard Ranka with warm, asexual feelings, then you aren't actually engaging her character in the context of being "moe".

Perhaps it's just an issue of her not being moe enough?

Originally Posted by magnuskn

Early on it was shown that Klan had feelings for Michael and, to my viewers eyes, it was shown that Michael was aware of that but was running away from those feelings. He himself vocalized those same hints in episode 19, together with his reasons for not wanting to expose himself to a serious relationship with Klan.

Yeah. Klan was like tsun, and I was like "kyaa!" and the rest of skullfairy was like "squee!" But then they killed off Michael and we were like "guh!" and we all ran off to write fanfics on our blogs. My sorrowful self found it quite moving.

Hm. I guess cheesie provides some inspiration every now and then.

Originally Posted by magnuskn

I think it was pretty clear to see, and certainly not relegated to only showing a swingset in one episode. If you try to reduce their relationship to that one shot, I think you do the characters and their fans a disservice.

While I had the impression that Klan and Michael had a close relationship from the start, I never really saw the two actually set out to discover anything new about each other. They knew everything there was to know, and they simply took each other for granted until the very end.

Personally, I consider the element of "discovery" to be a vital part of any romance story. While I don't doubt that Klan and Michael went through such a phase once upon a time, it was summarized in the story by using that single screenshot.

I hardly think that I did "the characters and their fans a disservice," simply by expressing a contrary opinion. That's way too dramatic for my taste.

Originally Posted by cheesie

And ah, the childhood friend argument, interesting, let's see how this takes off.

Yeah, it's a tough sell. Wanna give it a shot?

Originally Posted by Minion

... I thought you were the one who have been trying to put the bouquets of roses in front of my house 8|

That's probably Westlo. No doubt you've been neglecting him in your pursuit of cheesie.