Sword Art Online - Episode 9 Discussion / Poll

[FlameSparkZ]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

In fairness, since they were published after, it's entirely possible the side-stories were written after the main one was completed.

Possible? Maybe. But not confirmed.

In fact, Kawahara had to trim down the original script to fit the requirements (which were 120 pages) for the Dengeki Light Novel Award.

Also, next episode looks like it'll be good. This time we'll get to see a proper duel

[grey_moon]

Originally Posted by Klashikari

As someone who plays MMO as well, it just doesn't make sense to me to just make a weapon but not using it on the get go to benefit its bonus whatsoever. Surely Dark Repulser is actually better than Elucidator.......

Hoo hoo maybe they have the same type of system as MegaTen for repair costs. Some of my gears stayed stashed until I do high level content with a good party or I end up making a loss!

In regards to KOB master challenging Kirito, I think there are two things to consider:

First a guild master could end up just administering therefore no longer levelling as they don't really have the time to get out into the field. So he could be suffering from over confidence from the days he was out in the field.

Or the reverse the guild master could use the pooled resources of the guild to power level himself and could be the most high levelled char in SAO.

Great episode, I love the character designs and interaction.

[Karakuri]

Originally Posted by grey_moon

Hoo hoo maybe they have the same type of system as MegaTen for repair costs. Some of my gears stayed stashed until I do high level content with a good party or I end up making a loss!

In regards to KOB master challenging Kirito, I think there are two things to consider:

First a guild master could end up just administering therefore no longer levelling as they don't really have the time to get out into the field. So he could be suffering from over confidence from the days he was out in the field.

Or the reverse the guild master could use the pooled resources of the guild to power level himself and could be the most high levelled char in SAO.

Great episode, I love the character designs and interaction.

I don't really think it would've been because of " over-confidence ", I mean, let's say he stopped leveling up like...10 levels ago. That's already a huge difference, not to mention, he knows Kirito has an " Unique Ability ", which gives even more advantage if that was the case.

Now about the reverse, that is more likely. Since he is the leader, maybe there was always a spot for him, in those parties.

I just can't think a leader, in a game which you either die or survive, would be only " Brains ", what would it matter if he had " tactics " if he couldn't show them himself? Basicly it would be like: " Yeah, I make the tactics, you go in there and face Death. " - Not to mention, Asuna is the one who is making the Floor Bosses tactics, which means Heathcliff doesn't have much to do in here. Sure he must give some advices, but meh...
Even Asuna goes to the Front Lines, and she is the one who's preparing those fights...
If Heathcliff wasn't strong enough, he had his " brains " to think atleast, someone who nearly Soloed a Boss would lose agaisn't someone who's weaker? Yeah...right...

Atleast I wouldn't want a Leader who couldn't be stronger than me, not in this type of game.

[grey_moon]

Originally Posted by Karakuri

...

Atleast I wouldn't want a Leader who couldn't be stronger than me, not in this type of game.

As a game of death I totally agree with you, but also because of this reason I think that more real life aspects come into play. In a normal game death doesn't count, but in SAO it does and people tend to want to be part of the stronger org when their lives are on the line. Now in real life one of the most powerful people is the president of the USA. In a one on one duel Chuck Norris could have him easily, but that doesn't matter, what matters I personally think is the personality that people perceive.

This goes back to my first point, the problem is when leaders start believing that they can do all the stuff which they have been selling other people...

Asuna said earlier that the guild started getting weird when ppl started saying it is the most strongest guild in the game. Add in how now it seems that her body guard was actually chosen for the job by him, I have my doubts about Heathcliff. Especially how he is acting about Asuna taking a break from the guild. Challenging Kirito with her "freedom" as a prize like she is some trophy is kinda meh imho, like someone who feels like they own their guild members....

[EnOfEridu]

Originally Posted by grey_moon

Challenging Kirito with her "freedom" as a prize like she is some trophy is kinda meh imho, like someone who feels like they own their guild members....

I think it has been written before, but it seems the other way around. It looks like Heathcliff is using this "Asuna leaving" stuff to coerce Kirito to part with his "Solo" ways and become one with the Alliance, i mean, the KoB. Probably he really doesn't care if Asuna gets a break, but getting one of the most powerful players in the game with also a special ability, that's a good political move.

E.T.A: Also, if Heatcliff wins, it will show that the KoB if so fricking powerful that the tamed the legendary "Solo" swordsman. Who will oppose them, then?


Probably the Laughling Coffin...

[grey_moon]

Originally Posted by EnOfEridu

I think it has been written before, but it seems the other way around. It looks like Heathcliff is using this "Asuna leaving" stuff to coerce Kirito to part with his "Solo" ways and become one with the Alliance, i mean, the KoB. Probably he really doesn't care if Asuna gets a break, but getting one of the most powerful players in the game with also a special ability, that's a good political move.

E.T.A: Also, if Heatcliff wins, it will show that the KoB if so fricking powerful that the tamed the legendary "Solo" swordsman. Who will oppose them, then?


Probably the Laughling Coffin...

But a play like this could make that break a permanent one. I don't know about other people but I personally wouldn't want to be treated like a trophy.

Also I don't agree with coercing Kirito into KOB being a good thing. With guild member's lives actually at risk, if you were the guild master would you want a pissed off player part of your plans?

The more I think about it, unless a really good reason comes up for why Heathcliff is acting this way, the more of a tool I think he is. All in all I think he is actually a pretty good representation of some of the guild leaders of some of the bigger guilds I have met in various MMOs (no names mentioned xD)

[Clarste]

Originally Posted by grey_moon

Also I don't agree with coercing Kirito into KOB being a good thing. With guild member's lives actually at risk, if you were the guild master would you want a pissed off player part of your plans?

Kirito's a nice guy. Even if he's pissed off I doubt he'd knowingly put people's lives at risk. Heck, being emotional might even make him more heroic and less hesitant.

[Adigard]

Originally Posted by grey_moon

All in all I think he is actually a pretty good representation of some of the guild leaders of some of the bigger guilds I have met in various MMOs (no names mentioned xD)

Funny that, no?

[EnOfEridu]

Originally Posted by grey_moon

But a play like this could make that break a permanent one. I don't know about other people but I personally wouldn't want to be treated like a trophy.

Also I don't agree with coercing Kirito into KOB being a good thing. With guild member's lives actually at risk, if you were the guild master would you want a pissed off player part of your plans?

The more I think about it, unless a really good reason comes up for why Heathcliff is acting this way, the more of a tool I think he is. All in all I think he is actually a pretty good representation of some of the guild leaders of some of the bigger guilds I have met in various MMOs (no names mentioned xD)

A good thing and a good political move are 2 very opposite things. The masses, you have to think about the masses. That's the important thing.

BTW, i'm not defending Heathcliff. I'm just wondering about his motives and going beyond the fact that he just wants Asuna in the KoB. Episodes will tell if am right, if he was right and if, really, it was necessary.

But i want Kirito to kick his ass and go camping with Asuna.

[Karakuri]

Originally Posted by grey_moon

But a play like this could make that break a permanent one. I don't know about other people but I personally wouldn't want to be treated like a trophy.

Also I don't agree with coercing Kirito into KOB being a good thing. With guild member's lives actually at risk, if you were the guild master would you want a pissed off player part of your plans?

The more I think about it, unless a really good reason comes up for why Heathcliff is acting this way, the more of a tool I think he is. All in all I think he is actually a pretty good representation of some of the guild leaders of some of the bigger guilds I have met in various MMOs (no names mentioned xD)

She isn't being treated like a " trophy ", she is the one who actually " wins ", wether Kirito loses or wins. She wants to spend time with Kirito -> If Kirito loses she'll be with him inside the guild. -> If Kirito wins she'll be with him outside the guild. -> Kirito Wants to be with Asuna. -> Kirito loses -> He'll be with Asuna. Kirito wins -> He'll be with Asuna.
Heathcliff wants Kirito -> Heathcliff wins -> He'll have Kirito. Heathcliff loses -> Either Asuna persuades him into joining the guild after, or Kirito doesn't join.

I think both Kirito and Asuna are having the advantage here. They'll win wether Kirito wins or not, plus - if Kirito joins the guild, if anything goes wrong and they're partying together, they have someone to help them. If they don't have a party, with any guild members other than Asuna and Kirito, they may die if something goes wrong ( Like...Laughin Coffin suddenly attacking ).

Edit: It's actually a way to protect Asuna too, since she could be with Kirito while being in parties with their guild members, she wouldn't have more risks as in only with Kirito.

[relentlessflame]

I think the issue is just basically that it comes across as if Asuna doesn't even get a choice about her own destiny. When I watched the episode with my sister, that was the first thing she pointed out: that the two guys were fighting over her when she should be able fight for herself (that they were turning her into a damsel in distress). Part of that is that the scene in the anime was so short so Asuna didn't even get a word in edge-wise. I pointed out basically the same thing that people have said here: I think the guild leader was just using this to manipulate Kirito given that he had the opportunity, so it actually reflects more poorly on him that he's jumping at this chance to fight without thinking about Asuna's feelings. Asuna, for her part, was just trying to defer respectfully to the guild leadership, even if she didn't really like it (because she just wants to take a break, not to give up her position and quit).

In the end, like I said before, it can look bad at first glance, but there are also other explanations that make sense. It depends on how it gets resolved in the end (like, if the next episode cuts straight to the battle, or if it cuts to Asuna going "what the hell were you thinking?!" ).

[Karakuri]

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

I think the issue is just basically that it comes across as if Asuna doesn't even get a choice about her own destiny. When I watched the episode with my sister, that was the first thing she pointed out: that the two guys were fighting over her when she should be able fight for herself (that they were turning her into a damsel in distress). Part of that is that the scene in the anime was so short so Asuna didn't even get a word in edge-wise. I pointed out basically the same thing that people have said here: I think the guild leader was just using this to manipulate Kirito given that he had the opportunity, so it actually reflects more poorly on him that he's jumping at this chance to fight without thinking about Asuna's feelings. Asuna, for her part, was just trying to defer respectfully to the guild leadership, even if she didn't really like it (because she just wants to take a break, not to give up her position and quit).

In the end, like I said before, it can look bad at first glance, but there are also other explanations that make sense. It depends on how it gets resolved in the end (like, if the next episode cuts straight to the battle, or if it cuts to Asuna going "what the hell were you thinking?!" ).

Yeah, it does seem bad at first glance, but it isn't all that bad. Everyone knows Heathcliff gave her ( and probably all the other " vice-something " ) a guard, yes, that guard was a rookie compared to Kirito, but...Why would Heathcliff let her get out, and go party only with Kirito? She could be easily endangered by the fact they were going as a duo, without anyone else to protect them. People see him acting as a " greedy guy ", but...people could also see him like he cared for them. If Kirito joins, they'll have many people to help them, in case they're in danger, because they're most likely going to party most of the times ( even though sometimes they'll go duo ). Just like they won't let her by herself at those cities ( which are 100% secure ) they gave her a bodyguard so she wouldn't be bothered by fans. Why not give them a chance to be protected by a guild, instead of going alone? Risks are high in this situation, and losing 2 TOP players would be an insane loss to the Front Lines. Even more because 1 of them is the vice-comander who does all the strategy, and the other one is someone who has an unique ability which will help them a lot, if he uses it.
Plus - She wants to be with Kirito. The only reason she asked for a " time off " is because she wanted to be with Kirito ( If she could be with Kirito inside the guild, she wouldn't mind, I'm quite sure. But since Kirito doesn't want to be in a guild, she either stays out from the guild for a short period of time, or he joins ). She doesn't have that much stress when she's with Kirito. Atleast I can't see any stresses. If she can stay with Kirito, even inside the guild, why not get him to join? everyone would win with Kirito joining KoB.
I just can't see what Heathcliff is doing as something bad...

[Starlightz]

I hope I'm not the only one who think it's fine and understandable for Heathcliff to treat Asuna like a "trophy" (or an object)...
I'm an officer of the top Asian (well, except China) WoW guild, so I guess my mindset may be similar to grey_moon's "guild leaders of some of the bigger guilds I have met" - I think each guild member IS property of the guild, so it's fine to treat them as such when it comes to matters like this. When you join a guild (or any big organization in general), you have certain responsibilities. "Take a temporary break" on a whim to party with someone outside the organization is really irresponsible. In real life, if you are an officer in an army, or a big company, are you able to suddenly leave one day on your whim? No, you aren't.
After all, by being in a big guild, a guild member (Asuna in this case) probably have gained certain advantages before (if not now) - being in guild raids, easy to find strong party, get items from bosses the guild killed, etc. Why is it wrong to think she belongs to the guild?

[Karakuri]

Originally Posted by Starlightz

I hope I'm not the only one who think it's fine and understandable for Heathcliff to treat Asuna like a "trophy" (or an object)...
I'm an officer of the top Asian (well, except China) WoW guild, so I guess my mindset may be similar to grey_moon's "guild leaders of some of the bigger guilds I have met" - I think each guild member IS property of the guild, so it's fine to treat them as such when it comes to matters like this. When you join a guild (or any big organization in general), you have certain responsibilities. "Take a temporary break" on a whim to party with someone outside the organization is really irresponsible. In real life, if you are an officer in an army, or a big company, are you able to suddenly leave one day on your whim? No, you aren't.
After all, by being in a big guild, a guild member (Asuna in this case) probably have gained certain advantages before (if not now) - being in guild raids, easy to find strong party, get items from bosses the guild killed, etc. Why is it wrong to think she belongs to the guild?

Well, I do understand your point, hard to disagree in there. But you can't have someone who has stress or doubts about how to act, let's say, in the army. It seems that, if you are in stress, or something like that, you'll be thinking of as a " crazy person " ( Probably because they aren't " veterans ", they got in the army about..2/3 years ago, they often throw themselves to the ground, htiting rocks and stuff, so they can go home ), atleast my brother told me once, that no one goes to Missions ( He's in the army ) unless they're perfectly healthy ( Mind and body, of course ). Which I do understand this reason. Asuna is also stressed. I don't think it's the same thing, of course. But if she makes 1 mistake, everything can go wrong. And if someone died, because she made that mistake, she would probably blame herself for that, and take a long time so she could get back to strategies and stuff. So, I do think they could let her leave for a bit, so she could think things out. However, she doesn't really need to get out. Kirito takes out all the stress she has ( or atleast it looks like that to me ), because she can be her " normal self " when she's with Kirito.
But about being in a TOP guild, I must say, I have to agree in there. I've been in a few TOP guilds, and of course they let you get out, but once you do that, you can not re-join the guild. Most of the guilds I was in were like this. And I agreed, because most of the times, they would do useless stuff, when the guild could lose significant spots ( to level up ) or some wars/fights, because of that.

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

I think the issue is just basically that it comes across as if Asuna doesn't even get a choice about her own destiny. When I watched the episode with my sister, that was the first thing she pointed out: that the two guys were fighting over her when she should be able fight for herself (that they were turning her into a damsel in distress).

Well, there are a few reasons why she shouldn't duel Heathcliff.

If she was to fight with the leader, then that would mean KoB really made decisions based on a duel between members. What would happen to the discipline after that, regardless of who wins?

Kirito, OTOH, is an outsider. Right now, and even after the fight, it can still be dismissed as a joke and a show.

Originally Posted by Karakuri

I just can't think a leader, in a game which you either die or survive, would be only " Brains ", what would it matter if he had " tactics " if he couldn't show them himself? Basicly it would be like: " Yeah, I make the tactics, you go in there and face Death. " - Not to mention, Asuna is the one who is making the Floor Bosses tactics, which means Heathcliff doesn't have much to do in here. Sure he must give some advices, but meh...
Even Asuna goes to the Front Lines, and she is the one who's preparing those fights...

We only saw her manage that one meeting. And it wasn't even about a floor boss.

There are all kinds of good reasons why the staffing of boss parties should rotate. It's possible and even likely that the pre-fight management duty also rotates.

[mod edit: removed information that has yet to be revealed in the anime]

[Karakuri]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

We only saw her manage that one meeting. And it wasn't even about a floor boss.

There are all kinds of good reasons why the staffing of boss parties should rotate. It's possible and even likely that the pre-fight management duty also rotates.

Well, it doesn't mean she isn't just because we only saw her once...and I don't really think she wouldn't be managing those, just because what was shown wasn't a floor Boss. Probably they only created that scene so we would know that they sometimes disagree ( It seemed Kirito and Asuna often disagreed), and also to show how serious she was about this game ...
That may be true, probably they rotate. But what I'm talking about is, that one time she does that " pre-fight management ", while being stressed, just as she is right now. And that could go wrong. I think she isn't a " vice-comander " for nothing. She surely knows about strategies, why wouldn't she do those meetings about the Floor Bosses? Well, I could be wrong.

[Anh_Minh]

My point was, she's not the only one to do that, and it's likely that Heathcliff does it too.

[Clarste]

In my experience, raid leaders and guild leaders are often separate. Being a guild leader is more of a administrative job. It's about recruiting people, interviewing people, advertising, handling disputes, keeping morale up, etc. Being a raid leader is more strategic or tactical. Even if the guild leader fights in the battles they may defer to the raid leader for strategy.

[Karakuri]

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

My point was, she's not the only one to do that, and it's likely that Heathcliff does it too.

Yeah, I shouldn't have said " Not to mention, Asuna is the one who is making the Floor Bosses tactics, which means Heathcliff doesn't have much to do in here. Sure he must give some advices ", my bad. I should've said something like - Probably Asuna participates a lot in those meetings.

[grey_moon]

Originally Posted by Karakuri

She isn't being treated like a " trophy "...

Sorry I mean that from a PoV of view which RF wrote far better in the sense that ppl fighting over her without her input. At least Kirito is defending her, but Heathcliff's position just doesn't feel right to me.

Originally Posted by Starlightz

I hope I'm not the only one who think it's fine and understandable for Heathcliff to treat Asuna like a "trophy" (or an object)...
I'm an officer of the top Asian (well, except China) WoW guild, so I guess my mindset may be similar to grey_moon's "guild leaders of some of the bigger guilds I have met"...

Yah games like Forsaken World where guild upkeep becomes a job rather then fun can really turn a guild inside out. I used to be part of a really fun guild until the base got upgraded to a point where it was actually the mid level members who destroyed the guild rather then the leader. Maybe our leader was too nice and not manipulative charismatic enough...

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

Well, there are a few reasons why she shouldn't duel Heathcliff.

If she was to fight with the leader, then that would mean KoB really made decisions based on a duel between members. What would happen to the discipline after that, regardless of who wins?

Kirito, OTOH, is an outsider. Right now, and even after the fight, it can still be dismissed as a joke and a show.
...

Really nice point about why Asuna shouldn't duel her leader, also she probably holds him in high regard still.