Death Note - Episode 37 [END] Discussion / Poll

[Nevflinn]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M9dSsRkFyw0

Originally Posted by THERE GOES THE SIREN THAT WARNS OF THE AIR RAID

Okay, this is fair to say and I can agree with you. Although, this is pretty obvious and the term "lost himself" is vague for your claim. Light, never once loss control of his situation and was quite calm and clever through the entire series. Now, for his insanity/ mind (in which I believe this is where you're going) he lost the further the series went on. Okay, but I said this a long time ago, this is a natural human reaction/ behavior - too much power.

Glad we can agree. I'm of the opinion that he had lost himself by the time Ryuk had come to him (just see the names already written in the Death Note :V ).

Originally Posted by THERE COMES THE SOUND OF THE GUNS SENDING FLAK

I am not sure what your point to this is? It really doesn't move your argument a long; rather move it in another direction.

It was to expand on two things; the above point that Light had lost his humanity, and in support of Aquillion's statement which you criticised for supposedly lacking proof:

Originally Posted by Aquillion

Because the author wanted to make it clear that Light was, ultimately, a contemptible, cowardly sociopath who was only willing to kill people because he was too egotistical to realize he could lose. Light's death scene -- screaming, whimpering, begging for help like the coward he is -- was something that was foreshadowed right from the beginning of the series; everything was always leading up to the big reveal, the moment when Light's egotistical confidence in his own divinity finally breaks.

I would have been disappointed in any other ending.

Originally Posted by OUT FOR THE SCRAMBLE WE'VE GOT TO GET AIRBORNE

You claim he loses sense of what's right and wrong, I object to that - Light knew what right and wrong was, but his motive was in fact that right and wrong became irrelevant in the eyes of justice. Bad people were getting away for evil crimes and Light wanted it to stop.

The second and third sentences here contradict each other. In the latter, you claim that Light wanted to carry out justice by punishing the wicked. Yet in the former you say that right and wrong are irrelevant in the eyes of justice.

Originally Posted by GOT TO GET UP FOR THE COMING ATTACK

"Rotting world rotting people." That quote (remember). No, you don't have to be a genus to lie, but you do have to be able to put morals aside, right? So in that case he does not lose grasp of right and wrong.

You're actually right, he doesn't lose grasp of right and wrong. What Light does is far worse - he commits sin knowing it is sinful instead of believing it is good. So let's assume that he starts the series as pure, good and earnest but only later does he become insane - that means the good Light is killing people believing it to be good. His motive is completely irrelevant as the fact couldn't be clearer; committing evil in sound state of mind and full awareness that it is evil is the ultimate evil.

Originally Posted by JUMP IN THE COCKPIT AND START UP THE ENGINES

Yes, we did get to see what Light did for the world before Near, and guess what he did. He did what he said - to kill criminals and clean the world in which I believe he did quite well. So that is irrelevant to anything you have to further state.

I believe this explains my argument clearly enough.

You know I really am going to like you.

Originally Posted by REMOVE ALL THE WINDBLOCKS THERE'S NO TIME TO WASTE

I agree that Near did defeat Light/Kira that is fact. Nevertheless, my friend, this as stated before was all normal and scripted mind you. Light, knew he loss in shock mind you because his plan did work perfectly other than some minor mistakes which I will clarify later on. The point here is that the author even showed us with just Light's dialogue. Remember, without going into any more detail than I have to while he got shot and was lying in pain he says something in which proves that he was in fact as you stated delusion and fear. He first tells the police to kill them all (after shooting him (light) mind you). He continues telling Mikami to kill them all which he knew very well was impossible. He then asks help and from Misa, in which he knows she is not there and even to the extreme asks for Naomi's help. Hmm I believe he killed her a few days ago, right? Finally he says, it hurts, what should I do? Light as you said was out of control, he had no control over the situation and lost his reasonable and rational abilities. Showing two things: one Light is human not a God, and two much like power, fear can consume you as well.

It seems then that we agree on the point that Light was deluded to believe he was a god when in reality he was human. Thus, you agree with my view on it. :V

Originally Posted by GATHERING SPEED AS WE HEAD DOWN THE RUNWAY

Interesting statement you give here to say the very least. Although, if your logic holds than that means you're saying every police officer, every solider who kills people with guns have to die by a gun? What about a bomb (in a soldiers case). A boxer, is aspected to die in the ring? Now, I'm not sure why you would ever use hypocrisy here, because it's very weak because almost any situation can be accused of such. Easy example for you, do you like winning money? I assume yes, do you like losing money? I assume no, well that makes you a hypocrite then. Wow, that's easy.

Every soldier signs up aware of the possibility, if not probability, that they will die in battle or while on duty, be it either a heroic, sudden or unceremonious one, and that there will be very little they can do about it. Every gambler is aware that the dice may roll against them. Boxers don't expect to die, but they are aware that something may go wrong (boxers and wrestlers like Chris Benoit have suffered serious brain injury). In Death Note, L himself from the very beginning was constantly aware that simply opposing Kira, never mind attempting to capture him, put his very life on the line (in fact, this could be said about any case he worked on, just not as much as the Kira case).

Light had prepared his entire schedule of life to become the mass murderer that he became, but the one and most important outcome which he was never mentally prepared for or willing to accept was the one where he would lose, be caught, even when it became reality. If he was brave, if he had a heart, then he wouldn't have whimpered like a dog, trying to kill until his final moments, and accepted it was over, no matter how much he wished it to be.

Originally Posted by GOT TO GET AIRBORNE BEFORE IT'S TOO LATE!!

I don't believe I am, you're right he was determined to win, lol, and of course he thought he was going to win, even Near said he would have. I do know now that you in fact are confused with the two though. Breaking an addiction is nothing to do with bravery yet it is determination of will power and self control. Light's bravery showed through the full series as he continued to do the deeds of Kira. Listen, Kira/Light knew the police force, L, they were all after him and if he got caught, then he would be put to death. He continued though, and he always followed through, Light was brave up until the final episode with out question. On the contrary though, he was reckless.

I'm speaking of two different forms of bravery here. The bravery I was referring to which I should have elaborated further upon previously - that Light would have been had he stopped - was based on how determined he was to be Kira; the more determined he was to kill, the braver he would have been to stop. Under the illusion of the power of the Death Note (which we agree on as this is linked directly to his claim of godhood) he decided that murdering people was what he had to do. Imagine asking a man not to cry for the sake of the spirits of the children around him - for the man, it'd be hard to do. That kind of bravery, for Light, would have been to swallow his pride and try delivering justice the hard, honest way, as things were before.

The kind of bravery I should have been speaking about instead, that you were looking for, is when you are afraid yet go on anyway. You are assuming that Light was ever afraid of being caught - he wasn't. There may have been one moment against L, but that's it. He was never afraid simply because he did not consider defeat a possibility - in other words, this is another way he was arrogant from the beginning.

Originally Posted by RUNNING, SCRAMBLING, FLYING

Haha, I was waiting for this. I'm sorry but your logic does not hold here, if we are to do this blame game than I can go further and say "no it was not Mello but the death god who told Mello about the fake rule" BUT THEN Oh boy you get to say " No, in that case it's Ryku's fault for taking the Death God's notebook" So see how circular that is.

Hence why I'm doing the smart thing and not thinking that way. Nobody cares if it was a sequence of events. Everything is a sequence of events, all of which pass from one to the other. If you want to make this into circular nonsense, we'd still end up with "Well it was Light's fault for giving into temptation and using the Death Note in the first place!"

EDIT: Wait, actually, why would I care if you gave that retort? The point is that Mikami's not to blame: how does blaming Sidow not prove that in any way? :V

Besides, what I'm getting at is not only exempt from the circular motion, but completely irrelevant. By "Mello's fault" I meant it was that Mello and Near began working together and forced the hands of Light and Mikami. In other words, the combined ability of their opponents was too much for them.

Originally Posted by ROLLING, TURNING, DIVING

Light's plan worked perfect, he planned and read Near perfect, I already stated this all before but it has to be said again.. Light, did everything possible and perfectly to win. Yes, I will agree he should have been a little more "clear" with Mikami, but remember it wasn't like they could do brunch.

Light did everything to win against Near. Not Near and Mello. Mello's decision to finally work with Near was what destroyed them in the end; it has nothing to do with the supposed incompetence in the long run of Mikami or Light.

Originally Posted by DOING IT AGAIN

He did however tell Kira 2 that he was NOT to do anything until the day they met. Huh looks like he broke that law, in which potentially screwed over Light.

Look at it this way before being so harsh on Mikami: what if Light hadn't been able to sit in the back of the car on the way to "arrest" Takada?

That twist of chance would mean Light could not kill Takada in time. That raises two possible outcomes, leaving everything to depend on Mikami. He could either go to the bank as he should have and kill Takada (the important fact that is overlooked here is that Light had told Mikami he was unable to move, among the few things he divulged to him that he should have), or stay back and do nothing.
In the event of the former, then Gevanni him having balls of steel and whatnot trails him and locates the real Death Note anyway, but Light may possibly realise that Mikami had killed Takada and tries his best to readjust the plan. In the event of the latter, Takada lives and the Death Note paper is found, and Aizawa would have enough proof of Light's doings and arrest him.

The point that I either did not convey appropriately or you simply overlooked was that Light could not have possibly asked for a better ally than Mikami. He thought like Light, he felt like Light, and he was smart and loyal enough to be his apprentice. Yet Light used him as a pawn instead of a partner: the very same way he treated everyone. It was difficult for them to communicate, but they communicated through Takada - that was time enough for Light to talk enough with him. Yet he did not use it, most likely because he didn't respect anyone enough to treat them on even footing.



Now I do believe it's your move.

[YoSneaky]

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wall of text

[Kenshin3]

figured something like that would happen...I wish Light won tho..bah...only thing that I liked is what Ryuk did..but still..meh...

[ArrowSmith]

I just watched Ep37 last night. I had finsihed the manga over a year ago, so I knew what Light's fate would be. However I think Madhouse chose wisely in creating a more poetic ending then the manga. It brought a few tears, especially 2 parts of the final scene:

* when Light passes his younger ghost along the fence
* when Light sees the ghost of L just before dying

[ArrowSmith]

I don't quite buy the idea that Gevanni managed to copy Mikami's entire Death Note perfectly in one night. Light had Mikami inspect the Note under microscope because he anticipated this fakery. What are the odds that Gevanni would make 0 mistakes? Mikami was not stupid and would notice it. However Light is a bit hypocritical when he thought that Near was stupid for not testing the notebook before the meeting because he could have instructed Mikami to test his note before as well and alerted Light if it was a fake. Light dropped the ball! Does anyone think that the younger Light would have made such horrible blunders? I think he was drunk on his power after disposing of L and he got sloppy.

[Jays]

Originally Posted by ArrowSmith

I don't quite buy the idea that Gevanni managed to copy Mikami's entire Death Note perfectly in one night. Light had Mikami inspect the Note under microscope because he anticipated this fakery. What are the odds that Gevanni would make 0 mistakes? Mikami was not stupid and would notice it. However Light is a bit hypocritical when he thought that Near was stupid for not testing the notebook before the meeting because he could have instructed Mikami to test his note before as well and alerted Light if it was a fake. Light dropped the ball! Does anyone think that the younger Light would have made such horrible blunders? I think he was drunk on his power after disposing of L and he got sloppy.

I haven't watched this anime in a good 6 months or so, but I've always found Light's final blunder rather amazing, so correct me if I'm wrong with any of this.

Didn't Light already guess that Near would attempt to switch the notebook? Is that not why he made Mikami switch it himself before Gevanni could and then subsequently told Mikami to continue to write in it to make Near believe that both of them (Light and Mikami) were oblivious to the switch?

The crux of Light's mistake was placing too much faith in Mikami, which is ironic when you consider that just before his failure, it seems as if he was the only person who Light ever felt was actually deserving of all the trust and faith he's placed on, probably because Mikami thought of Light as a God, something Light obviously liked.

Mikami's blunder in attempting to help Light basically threw out all of his plans. Light wasn't aware that Mikami was actually the person who killed Takoda(sp); by removing the Death Note from that safety deposit box, I believe that all of the work that Light had put into convincing Near that Mikami's fake Death Note was real, was all for not.

That's why Near called Light - a brilliant move on his part. I believe even Near was almost caught off gaurd by the huge blunder on Light's part that he had to call him to almost pinch himself.

Awesome stuff.

[ArrowSmith]

What the Near arc proves is that no person is infallible and perfect. For a time Light indeed was. He didn't make a single mistake which allowed him to defeat L/Watari. But that victory made him complacent. Even at the end he believed Near was inferior to L, despite the fact that he hadn't clinched victory yet. It happened to even the greatest Kings like Alexander the Great.

[Sinfully Naomi]

Near was inferior to L, he needed another person in order to help him even get enough proof to file that Light himself was Kira. Like Light said, Near didn't even suspect that there was a second notebook, whereas L wouldn't suspected that right away. As far as deductive knowledge goes, Near was good, but not as good as L.

[Dark Lord]

Originally Posted by ArrowSmith

I don't quite buy the idea that Gevanni managed to copy Mikami's entire Death Note perfectly in one night. Light had Mikami inspect the Note under microscope because he anticipated this fakery.

I agree that is hard to believe. But, the notebook he copied was the real one in the safe deposit box and Mikami was not inspecting that one - he was only inspecting the fake one he wrote in. In the fake one is where he noticed blank pages were replaced but neither Light nor he thought to inspect the real notebook.

[ArrowSmith]

Originally Posted by Dark Lord

I agree that is hard to believe. But, the notebook he copied was the real one in the safe deposit box and Mikami was not inspecting that one - he was only inspecting the fake one he wrote in. In the fake one is where he noticed blank pages were replaced but neither Light nor he thought to inspect the real notebook.

One would think Light would anticipate that as well given his track record. His biggest blunder.

[oxblud]

I just finished watching the whole series again for the 2nd time. I was wondering if someone could explain or link me somewhere that explains how Mello helped Near in regards to the possibility of a fake notebook? I don't even know where to begin to search for that. I read that section in the manga too & I still don't understand. Thanks.

[ArrowSmith]

Originally Posted by oxblud

I just finished watching the whole series again for the 2nd time. I was wondering if someone could explain or link me somewhere that explains how Mello helped Near in regards to the possibility of a fake notebook? I don't even know where to begin to search for that. I read that section in the manga too & I still don't understand. Thanks.

Mello's purpose was to expose 3rd Kira. He basically sacrificed his life to help Near win.

[oxblud]

Yes, but how? I don't see how Mello kidnapping Takada made N realize the possibility of a fake notebook.

[ArrowSmith]

Originally Posted by oxblud

Yes, but how? I don't see how Mello kidnapping Takada made N realize the possibility of a fake notebook.

You see it did help Near understand, and he had Gevanni fake Death Note the very next night...

[Nevflinn]

Originally Posted by ArrowSmith

I don't quite buy the idea that Gevanni managed to copy Mikami's entire Death Note perfectly in one night. Light had Mikami inspect the Note under microscope because he anticipated this fakery. What are the odds that Gevanni would make 0 mistakes?

There are three important things to remember when coming to Mikami not discovering the reality of the note:

1) He needed a microscope and time to identify forgery in the fake book.
2) They only had to fool Mikami for a while, long enough to get the evidence. Think of a magician's trick - his magic wouldn't stand up to scrutiny over a long period of time by trained eyes, but they are more than good enough to leave an audience oblivious for the window they have in which to view the tricks. That was all that was needed.
3) Gevanni has balls of steel. No arguing with that logic.

However Light is a bit hypocritical when he thought that Near was stupid for not testing the notebook before the meeting because he could have instructed Mikami to test his note before as well and alerted Light if it was a fake. Light dropped the ball! Does anyone think that the younger Light would have made such horrible blunders? I think he was drunk on his power after disposing of L and he got sloppy.

I think the main problem was that in his arrogance, he underestimated and disrespected his foe's ability. He read Near like a book and became immediately ashamed of him. Furthermore, he proved how selfish his wish to change the world really was by showing ineptitude in working with others, such as the textbook examples of the people for whom Light was trying to create his supposedly "perfect world".

Near was inferior to L, he needed another person in order to help him even get enough proof to file that Light himself was Kira. Like Light said, Near didn't even suspect that there was a second notebook, whereas L wouldn't suspected that right away. As far as deductive knowledge goes, Near was good, but not as good as L.

I think L being superior to Near and Mello individually at the time of the Kira case was the point. :V

The idea behind Near's victory is that he achieved it through Mello's help, that the only way to defeat Kira and live up to L's name was to co-operate. That he admits it and seems to praise Mello is the implication that Near will try to learn from Mello in the future, and soon rival or surpass L on his own.

I just finished watching the whole series again for the 2nd time. I was wondering if someone could explain or link me somewhere that explains how Mello helped Near in regards to the possibility of a fake notebook? I don't even know where to begin to search for that. I read that section in the manga too & I still don't understand. Thanks.

It all comes down to Takeda. Both Mello and Near knew that she was the link between Light and Mikami. Near was right when he had Lidner try to watch Takeda, but his problem was that he wasn't impulsive enough - he should have tried to fiddle further with the link between the two Kiras. Mello caught onto this - and possibly the notion that Mikami's Death Note was fake - but wasn't willing to swallow his pride and come up to Near and help. Thus, he helped the only way he could; kidnap Takeda to force Mikami's hand. Since Light had informed him that he was unable to move, Mikami had no choice but to act in the case of an emergency. So he went to the bank to fetch the real Death Note and kill Takeda so Light wouldn't be caught. However, despite his attempts, he was still followed and spotted by Superman Gevanni.

That Mikami broke his routine to go to the bank twice in the same day implied that something important was there - Near concluded correctly that it was the real Death Note, and that Mikami had been fooling them the whole time.

[ArrowSmith]

It seems to me that Gevanni is a bit too capable! Surely he shouldn't have been better then Light!

[Nevflinn]

Why can't he/anyone be better than Light? :/

It's ultimately still Near vs. Light - the great difference is that Near has capable allies who trust him and he trusts back in turn. The good guys can have their talents too; Light's knack is that he's been loaned godlike power and likes to go insane, Gevanni's is having actual skill.

[ArrowSmith]

Originally Posted by Nevflinn

Why can't he/anyone be better than Light? :/

It's ultimately still Near vs. Light - the great difference is that Near has capable allies who trust him and he trusts back in turn. The good guys can have their talents too; Light's knack is that he's been loaned godlike power and likes to go insane, Gevanni's is having actual skill.

Yeah that's what I thought too. Light was brilliant but inexperienced.

[Light_Yamagi_Kira]

Some interesting points have been brought up in the many posts above and I really missed too much time to dwell on them all. The main thesis throughout these posts is the fact that Light made a mistake and was beaten because Near could work with other people, unlike Light who used everybody. That is a solid point, I have to agree if Light would have had more trust in his allies he would have been more successful. Although Light was much better than Near and L. What happen was Light could have beaten L by himself (he did) and would have beat Near if he was by himself - but he had a second L if you will (Mello) which stacked the odds. It's that simple, I mean by logic, Light had no idea of Mikami's move and continued his plan, reading Near to perfection. -Sigh- I will have to say L was much better than Near as many are talking about, although L's biggest flaw was he always second himself and was not very good at finding hard enough evidence - plus he didn't have this perfect Giovanni... which I believe is a mistake in the series because there is no way one man in less than 24 hours could perfect a fake death note. The same hand writing... with A LOT of pages of text, no not possible. Not counting Mikami is a well-educated individual who was checking the notebook every night. AND, even when he brought the real Death Note would he not notice something then. Nevertheless, it was evident that Light had to lose at the end, Near deducted the situation correctly and got lucky that Mikami went out of routine. Also.. that Light lost his nerve and did not wait until he was in the back of the police care to use that little piece of paper to write Near and whom ever else's name down he wanted. Also, Light was not inexperienced, lol, that is irrelevant to anything, he had six years of experience - he was fine.

[ArrowSmith]

Originally Posted by Light_Yamagi_Kira

Some interesting points have been brought up in the many posts above and I really missed too much time to dwell on them all. The main thesis throughout these posts is the fact that Light made a mistake and was beaten because Near could work with other people, unlike Light who used everybody. That is a solid point, I have to agree if Light would have had more trust in his allies he would have been more successful. Although Light was much better than Near and L. What happen was Light could have beaten L by himself (he did) and would have beat Near if he was by himself - but he had a second L if you will (Mello) which stacked the odds. It's that simple, I mean by logic, Light had no idea of Mikami's move and continued his plan, reading Near to perfection. -Sigh- I will have to say L was much better than Near as many are talking about, although L's biggest flaw was he always second himself and was not very good at finding hard enough evidence - plus he didn't have this perfect Giovanni... which I believe is a mistake in the series because there is no way one man in less than 24 hours could perfect a fake death note. The same hand writing... with A LOT of pages of text, no not possible. Not counting Mikami is a well-educated individual who was checking the notebook every night. AND, even when he brought the real Death Note would he not notice something then. Nevertheless, it was evident that Light had to lose at the end, Near deducted the situation correctly and got lucky that Mikami went out of routine. Also.. that Light lost his nerve and did not wait until he was in the back of the police care to use that little piece of paper to write Near and whom ever else's name down he wanted. Also, Light was not inexperienced, lol, that is irrelevant to anything, he had six years of experience - he was fine.

You have to realize it happened this way because the author wrote it that way. The real question to ask about Light is the way he was written up until that point, was his mistake plausible?