The state of anime, are we doomed?

[synaesthetic]

To the OP:

Yes, anime, like any other nerdy subculture, is caught up into itself and often delivers shout-outs and/or hangs a lampshade on the subculture itself. I mean seriously.

No, we're not doomed. I agree that 2009 was a pretty weak year, but Sturgeon's Law applies now as much as it ever has: 90% of everything is shit. The remaining 10% is worth dying for. There were a few diamonds in the rough this past year (Canaan and the new Kara no Kyoukai movie coming immediately to mind).

All is not lost. Anime and manga is not being swallowed whole by pantsu and loli moeblobs, those are just the most visible trends right now. In the 80s it seemed like every third anime series was a mecha show. The whole otaku-service-moeblob fad right now is just that... a fad. It'll pass.

Originally Posted by Vexx

There's no argument that fads sweep an entertainment medium... they come and go. In US TV... a few decades ago, you couldn't spit without hitting a western. Then it was cop-on-the-beat shows, then doctor shows, then detective shows.... forensics, back to cops... blah. Now its incestuous - you can't blink without seeing a variation on L&O/CSI/NCIS.

I think we're already seeing a fade on "moe" and "loli" and would have seen it faster except for the economic crash (... so they stick with safety). It won't go away anymore than mecha or shouting/posturing will "go away". But it will remain an element of many shows.

*blinks*

Great minds think alike.

[Bri]

Originally Posted by ZeusIrae

The question here is not that there are not enough good shows. The real problem is that they are packaged with layers of “otaku culture”, things we have come to regard as normal but are actually a hindrance.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

But... I can see how the internal lore of anime is becoming a bit tiresome, and might be hurting the anime industry.

This is pretty much it I guess. Regardeless of the rise and fall of genres and matters of quality, anime has become far more niche in the last decade. Before the rise of late night anime the industry had to worry about content that would appeal and be accesible by a wider TV audience for ratings.

These days anime has become one big OVA market catering exclusively to (perceived) otaku tastes. The sales figures tell us which shows are popular and which are not. Material has become more self referencing and inaccesible as it's made for one subculture exclusively.

That said, I don't believe anime is doomed, as long as quality shows will be made there will be fans watching them. Anime will change with the times, tastes and developments of the market.

[gonzo562]

For me 2009 was not a great year. Their were a couple very good anime series , some decent series and a ton of very bad series.

i only tune in to like 2-4 series out of the twenty'ish series that are shown each season. This year i thought their were to many fan service and comedy series.

[Ricky Controversy]

I'm rather optimistic about the state of anime. I'd like to put forth the contention that it shares something with video games as an art medium that makes social perception of the two different from the perceptions of, say, literature or painting. While both forms were developed and pioneered before the days of the kind of widespread internet usage we see now, they have both come of age in a largely internet-saturated culture. Unlike other media where historically most of the development occurred in a physical culture, these two have taken shape amidst creators and consumers who communicate with each other with unprecedented speed over unprecedented distances.

The end result of this is that the growth of either seems very accelerated compared to the pace of development in other artistic traditions: maybe it in fact is faster. Regardless, this means cycles of flourish and fade that occur in every medium are simply more dramatic, more rapid. The sonorous pace of development in literature over time is nothing at all like the staccato we see in anime.

New ideas emerge more frequently as a necessary consequence of information being exchanged more rapidly, more consistently and more broadly, and then because of that same quick, wide transmission of ideas, the new is cannibalized and derived from until it becomes the status quo much quicker, and because the audience can draw from virtually any node in those network of development, it is easy to become saturated with something.

The good news is that new, fresh things emerge faster than the well can be dried out, in my view. It's just that, by the time most people take notice of these concepts, they have already been cannibalized and reproduced. This is why passive reception of information will become extinct now that we're in the information edge. It's simply too damn dull to just receive ideas as they come, because then you get hit with a huge wall of monotony. The only way to find any variety is to go out there and find it yourself.

A place like this should be a great resource to you, with so many people of such diverse tastes, a good many of said people extremely resourceful and capable of teaching you how to search.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Vexx

There's no argument that fads sweep an entertainment medium... they come and go. In US TV... a few decades ago, you couldn't spit without hitting a western. Then it was cop-on-the-beat shows, then doctor shows, then detective shows.... forensics, back to cops... blah. Now its incestuous - you can't blink without seeing a variation on L&O/CSI/NCIS.

I think we're already seeing a fade on "moe" and "loli" and would have seen it faster except for the economic crash (... so they stick with safety). It won't go away anymore than mecha or shouting/posturing will "go away". But it will remain an element of many shows.

The reason why I don't think that your US TV/anime analogy completely holds water (as much as I wish it did) is this...

There are plenty of prominent shows on US TV that have nothing to do with L&O/CSI/NCIS or a variation thereof.

There's game shows, there's daytime soaps, there's late night talk shows (granted, it hasn't been a good year for Leno and O'Brien but at least they're there ), etc...

None of these TV shows borrow extensively from the conventions or tropes of the L&Os or the CSIs.


But it is starting to seem like a huge cross-section of anime, in many different genres, borrow extensively from the conventions of Otaku-focused anime.


With that in mind, a few posters here have boldly argued (literally in bold, in at least one case ) that this variety of anime is there; you just have to find it.


Ok then... I would deeply appreciate it if someone could point me to this anime generation's Record of Lodoss War.

A sword and sorcery fantasy anime played straight that doesn't borrow extensively from the conventions of modern anime (i.e. catgirls, meidos, tsunderes, etc...).


Failing that, this anime generation's Ghost in the Shell would be excellent as well. Basically, a sci-fi cyberpunk-esque anime with a serious plotline and some gritty realistic characters. Again, not overly grounded in the conventions of anime (I don't mind some - Motoko's character design didn't bother me like it did ZeusIrae, for example).


Now... The Sacred Blacksmith, and a Certain Scientific Railgun, could have been animes like these two (to some degree, at least). But, they instead went hard for Otaku conventions.


And... I'm not being facetious here. If somebody here can honestly find a 2009 or 2010 anime that are like one of the two older anime shows that I listed, I'd be genuinely grateful for it, and I'd reconsider some of my arguments about modern anime made on this thread.

Originally Posted by Bri

This is pretty much it I guess. Regardeless of the rise and fall of genres and matters of quality, anime has become far more niche in the last decade. Before the rise of late night anime the industry had to worry about content that would appeal and be accesible by a wider TV audience for ratings.

These days anime has become one big OVA market catering exclusively to (perceived) otaku tastes. The sales figures tell us which shows are popular and which are not. Material has become more self referencing and inaccesible as it's made for one subculture exclusively.

Agreed.

The reason why I sometimes rail a lot against anime self-referential humor and entertainment subculture "insider jokes" is because this is precisely the sort of stuff that I saw hurt western comic books and Star Trek.

The moment that these two popular entertainment realms began focusing almost exclusively on, well, the hardcore nerd fan, was the moment that sales and/or ratings dropped, and didn't recover until much more mainstream movie versions of the two came out.

[roriconfan]

Let's insert here a post I made elsewhere

Originally Posted by roriconfan

It is a common thing for anime of any kind to become saturated when overused. The industry becomes stale and then something different is needed to refresh the formula. Not necessarily groundbraking but different in presentation. As I scrolled through the anime databases a few months ago, taking notes on memorable titles throughout the years, I came to this weird conclusion. Anime peak in interest during the middle of every decade and drop a lot during the beginning and endings.
-In a flash, the mid 60's had Osamu Tezuka to breathe life into anime with Astro Boy and other of his works. He gave the looks all others would copy thereafter. But a few years later the interest dropped again.
-Until the mid 70's come along with a boom in mecha series. Then all the rest followed and saturated the industry again with clones of the same formula (Mazinger is the known formula all followed).
-Then came the mid 80's with their far more detailed sci-fi setting and with far more colorful characters in school comedies (such as Macross and Urusei Yatsura). The rest saturate the field again after awhile.
-So we have the mid 90s' with the addition of mental breakdowns and metaphysics to enter mainstream titles (such as NGE and Ghost in the Shell). The rest copy, the field saturates.
-And now we recently passed the mid 00's with the addition of... erm... paranoia and stylization of the mental presentation of the previous decade (Zetsubo Sensei and Death Note come to mind). Styling can include the hundreads of moe/loli/w/e series came along as this decade gave too much focus on aesthetics. Now, aesthetics can make even an average series to look gorgeous but too saturate the industry if they are eventually used later on just as cute/cool factor instead of expression of mentality. This is the drop we are going through these years. I estimate the next years will also be dry. The peak will most likely come in 2012 and onwards.

So yes, it does have to do with trends saturating your interest.
But hey, think of the alternative. If you give up on anime, what is there to replace them with? Cartoons and Hollywood have far less variety and most books are boring anyways.

As for the "90% of everything is crap" rule... Well, that is what makes the other 10% really good after all. You wouldn't appreciate it as much if it was 50-50.

[-Sho-]

Yeah , anime theses days are more "Loli , pantsu , big boobs , fanservice , moe , hot , eichii , typical -> follow the same storyline type ex : A normal schoolboy waked up and find a strange girl in his bed then she must protect him etc ........ with X possibilities etc ...."
It won't stop cuz thoses things works fine in Japan specially for thoses Otakus who want moar loli etc ...
Hopefully we still got some great job like Hellsing Ultimate , Kara no Kyoukai etc ...
So , yeah , old anime > currently anime imo

[james0246]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Ok then... I would deeply appreciate it if someone could point me to this anime generation's Record of Lodoss War.

A sword and sorcery fantasy anime played straight that doesn't borrow extensively from the conventions of modern anime (i.e. catgirls, meidos, tsunderes, etc...).

Juuni Kokuki?
Scrapped Princess?
Seirei no Moribito?

btw, elf-girls were once a fad as well...

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Failing that, this anime generation's Ghost in the Shell would be excellent as well. Basically, a sci-fi cyberpunk-esque anime with a serious plotline and some gritty realistic characters. Again, not overly grounded in the conventions of anime (I don't mind some - Motoko's character design didn't bother me like it did ZeusIrae, for example).

You've obviously never read the manga; else you would know of the weird use of humour in the story, not to mention the blatant use of sex in the manga...

That being said, what about GitS: Stand Alone Complex ?

Seriously, though, Kaiba, Eve no Jikan, Dennou Coil (you are going to probably say this is too childish, but imho Coil is far better cyberpunk than the original GitS ever was), Texhnolyze, etc. Need I go on.

I'm going to stop my response here, since you seem to be more focused on an old vs. new discussion more than anything else...

Originally Posted by Triple_R

And... I'm not being facetious here. If somebody here can honestly find a 2009 or 2010 anime that are like one of the two older anime shows that I listed, I'd be genuinely grateful for it, and I'd reconsider some of my arguments about modern anime made on this thread.

"Modern" and "Generation" encompasses more than a year. Everything I listed has come out in the past 5-10 years, and each series is as good, if not better, than what you have decided to use as milestones...

In the end, you are simply confusing one bad year (and various elements that made it bad) of anime with an entire generation anime...

---

edit: well said roriconfan (I think I actually know that post as well)...

[Ansalem]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Ok then... I would deeply appreciate it if someone could point me to this anime generation's Record of Lodoss War.

A sword and sorcery fantasy anime played straight that doesn't borrow extensively from the conventions of modern anime (i.e. catgirls, meidos, tsunderes, etc...).


Failing that, this anime generation's Ghost in the Shell would be excellent as well. Basically, a sci-fi cyberpunk-esque anime with a serious plotline and some gritty realistic characters. Again, not overly grounded in the conventions of anime (I don't mind some - Motoko's character design didn't bother me like it did ZeusIrae, for example).



And... I'm not being facetious here. If somebody here can honestly find a 2009 or 2010 anime that are like one of the two older anime shows that I listed, I'd be genuinely grateful for it, and I'd reconsider some of my arguments about modern anime made on this thread.

I don't know about 1:1 matches for specific shows, but if you're looking for good shows from the 00's that don't really draw heavily on otaku conventions, there are plenty out there. You seem to be interested in finding science fiction and fantasy: Seirei no Moribito, Dennou Coil, Eve no Jikan, Planetes, Mushishi, Natsume Yuujinchou, Higashi no Eden, Sword of the Stranger, and Mononoke to name a few from those genres off the top of my head. A couple are even from 2009. None of these are filled with pantsu, catgirls, maids, moe dances, or any of the other silly things that people say are present in every show and causing the downfall of anime.

Have you seen any of these? There's more out there as well, especially including other genres.

[gonzo562]

Originally Posted by -Sho-

Yeah , anime theses days are more "Loli , pantsu , big boobs , fanservice , moe , hot , eichii , typical -> follow the same storyline type ex : A normal schoolboy waked up and find a strange girl in his bed then she must protect him etc ........ with X possibilities etc ...."
It won't stop cuz thoses things works fine in Japan specially for thoses Otakus who want moar loli etc ...
Hopefully we still got some great job like Hellsing Ultimate , Kara no Kyoukai etc ...
So , yeah , old anime > currently anime imo

So true

Im hoping that instead of Loli , pantsu , big boobs , fanservice , moe , hot , eichii , typical -> follow the same storyline type

the anime industry moves to producing sequels to previously aired anime series. Their so many anime that were left unfinished or had a anime only ending. while their was still more manga or light novel material.

If they did this the state of anime wont be doomed or be in such a bad spot.

Heres a small list of anime that can could use a sequel

Gai Rei Zero
School Rumble
La Corda D'oro
Hajime No Ippo New Challenger
Air Gear
Do the Last arc of rurouni kenshin
GTO, Great Teacher Onizuka was not finished
History's Strongest Disciple Kenichi
Ouran Hight School Host Club
One Outs
Skip Beat
Claymore
Gakuen Alice
Kekkaishi
OverDrive

Remake GetBackers. The Manga finished and the anime only covered a small portion of the manga.

Remake Samurai Deeper Kyo- The manga is finished and the anime cover only a portion of the manga. I thought the manga was great

and the list goes on and on. Theirs a ton of tv series. That can have a sequel produced

THe anime industry slowly making more sequels or redoing prevision anime series. Like they redid Full metal alchemist so it follows the manga more closely. Black Lagoon is having a sequel that will be released as a ova. Ookiku Furikabutte is having a sequel being made. K-on having a sequel.

[TJR]

THe anime industry slowly making more sequels or redoing prevision anime series. Like they redid Full metal alchemist so it follows the manga more closely. Black Lagoon is having a sequel that will be released as a ova. Ookiku Furikabutte is having a sequel being made. K-on having a sequel.

Reliance on sequels is just another symptom of an industry that's in trouble. In a healthy situation, they'd be able to produce more profitable titles without having to fall back on continuations (which rarely sell as well as the original seasons anyway).

Sequels may help with short-term profit, but they do nothing to improve the market in the long run (and in the case of FMA, the remake failed).

and the list goes on and on. Theirs a ton of tv series. That can have a sequel produced

True, but most were never profitable in the first place. They'd be throwing money away.

[gonzo562]

Originally Posted by TJR

Reliance on sequels is just another symptom of an industry that's in trouble. In a healthy situation, they'd be able to produce more profitable titles without having to fall back on continuations (which rarely sell as well as the original seasons anyway).

Sequels may help with short-term profit, but they do nothing to improve the market in the long run (and in the case of FMA, the remake failed).



True, but most were never profitable in the first place. They'd be throwing money away.

if this is true then the anime industry is doomed . Lately the anime producers have been producing crap. A lot of the new series that were not related to some manga or light novel are not that great . Even some of the adaptions of manga/light novels were not well done. Well to me they have been crap but hey maybe other are enjoying them and buying the DVDs and other related material

[Kotohono]

Originally Posted by -Sho-

Yeah , anime theses days are more "Loli , pantsu , big boobs , fanservice , moe , hot , eichii , typical -> follow the same storyline type ex : A normal schoolboy waked up and find a strange girl in his bed then she must protect him etc ........ with X possibilities etc ...."
It won't stop cuz thoses things works fine in Japan specially for thoses Otakus who want moar loli etc ...
Hopefully we still got some great job like Hellsing Ultimate , Kara no Kyoukai etc ...
So , yeah , old anime > currently anime imo

I really have to disagree with everyone saying past is great, and current is crap, cause you all are simply comparing the best of past to the average of current of course one is going to look better than the other, you're kidding yourself if you expect EVERY show to live-up to those.

And if you're going to dismiss any anime that has even one of those elements in a single character as bad, then you're way too dam particular, and personally I am fine with most of those things as long as they are a part of the show, and/or character, and not the show/character being defined by it, like Hitagi from Bakemonogatari is a tsundere, but she is not defined as character simply by that fact.
Or the fanservice in Needless, yes it was there, but the show didn't revolve around it, and had actually used some of cleverly as parts of the comedy in the show, and I am fine with that.
I only have a problem with when fanservice becomes the show/s.

Anime wise I thought 2009 was a decent to great year depending on genres you enjoy, and seemed like no near a failure to me.

[Js2756]

One thing that has happened, and probably more rapidly in the 90s than previously, is that the anime industry has matured. I don't mean matured in that it deals with mature content, but that the people involved in the production of anime have learned who their primary target audience is and what to product to appeal to that audience. If that means, more pantsu and loli, then so be it. They've also learned what the boundaries and rules are, and how to push those limits just enough to still appeal to their target. The production of anime is still a business, and staying in business means making what people want. A lot of the "great" shows appeal to secondary or fringe markets, meaning that they are going to be hard pressed to make back their money and turn a profit.

[NoLongerSane]

Originally Posted by Js2756

One thing that has happened, and probably more rapidly in the 90s than previously, is that the anime industry has matured. I don't mean matured in that it deals with mature content, but that the people involved in the production of anime have learned who their primary target audience is and what to product to appeal to that audience. If that means, more pantsu and loli, then so be it. They've also learned what the boundaries and rules are, and how to push those limits just enough to still appeal to their target. The production of anime is still a business, and staying in business means making what people want. A lot of the "great" shows appeal to secondary or fringe markets, meaning that they are going to be hard pressed to make back their money and turn a profit.

This I agree with. But even when some great show take a backseat towards appealing to the primary audiance, I find it interesting to see how far the limits can be pushed.

[animeboy12]

sigh..It's always the same thing with these topics. People list the same 4 or 5 moe, ecchi series and then the list the same 4 or 5 non-moe series that's they wouldn't have even heard about were it's not for the studios attached to them. Then they complian about how moe is taken over the industry. It's some what sad because that means a whole of anime series are getting missed and what's worse is that people are complaining about it.

we had
Shikabane Hime: Kuro
ride back
White Album
Zoku Natsume Yuujinchou
Tetsuwan Birdy Decode
Kemono no Souja Erin
Examurai Sengoku
Koukaku no Regios
Pandora Hearts
Tears to Tiara
Guin Saga
Slayers Evolution-R
Aoi Hana
Tatakau Shisho: The Book of Bantorra
Tegami Bachi
Kobato
Aoi Bungaku
Kuuchuu Buranko
Shangri-La
Souten Kouro
Ristorante Paradiso
Fuyu no Sonata

and no this list is not anywhere close to being done t but it's probably more than most lists when it come to moe and ecchi series. I mean seriously no one going to spoon feed you variety, not every non-moe series comes from big name studio ala eden of east, cannan, or TM08. Wanting something different isn't the same looking it.

[0utf0xZer0]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Ok then... I would deeply appreciate it if someone could point me to this anime generation's Record of Lodoss War.

A sword and sorcery fantasy anime played straight that doesn't borrow extensively from the conventions of modern anime (i.e. catgirls, meidos, tsunderes, etc...).

Record of Lodoss War is as trope heavy as pretty much any fantasy anime I can think of... it's just that the tropes are western in origin.

I think you're problem is more that modern fantasy anime don't play it straight than the specific tropes used. I'm pretty sure most Lodoss fans could enjoy Utawarerumono regardless of the fact that it's absolutely chalk full of catgirls (I have full size wallscrolls of two of them).

My favourite show of 2008, Kure-nai would be another good example... sure, the plot may involve a guy being hired to protect a little girl, but the show comes across as very different from the average loli show, because it plays its concept pretty straight. Even the guy who wrote ANN's Nanoha review picked it as one of the best spring 2008 shows.

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Agreed.

The reason why I sometimes rail a lot against anime self-referential humor and entertainment subculture "insider jokes" is because this is precisely the sort of stuff that I saw hurt western comic books and Star Trek.

The moment that these two popular entertainment realms began focusing almost exclusively on, well, the hardcore nerd fan, was the moment that sales and/or ratings dropped, and didn't recover until much more mainstream movie versions of the two came out.

I thought Star Trek failed because the later shows were universally loathed... not even most of the guys I know who were Trekkies liked them.

I guess while I an agree with you that not enough shows played things straight in 2009, I just don't think that Code Geass would necessarily have been better without otaku tropes... and I certainly don't think Simoun would have been better without the lesbian kissing. I suppose you have a case with Shana since I found the bandage outfit just a little much (I haven't gotten around to watching my DVD set of season 1 yet, so I can't comment as to the panty shots as I don't think the TV cut had them).

[jsieczkar]

As with every form of entertainment media the anime industry swings between pop and a more serious format, in the case of music it is a swing between pop and rock. In anime it is a swing from the more poppy light fare that is the dominate fair and the more serious fair that was dominate just a few years ago. This is the fifth such swing to happen in the anime industry with the last one being in the late 90's early 00's which was a swing from pop. Before that there was a pop swing in the late 80's early 90's, after the last anime market crash. Their will be a swing back the other direction sooner then later, namely when the economy improves and people are not looking for better times. Even so their were several strong titles in the last 2 years that were not light pop fair: Time of Eve, Kaiba, Kurenai, The Sky Crawlers, Casshern Sins, Cencoroll, Genius Party Beyond and Eden of the East.

Thankfully the swings globally do not match up and on a global scale 2009 was a good year for people who hate pop. The wold film industry, including animation was strong, several very good books were published, the American and European comic industry had good sales year with several strong titles. American cable TV has several strong shows running and even broadcast TV has some good shows.

[Westlo]

2009 was disappointing.. but we were seeing these exact same "anime is doomed" arguments back in 2007 (and the year before that and the year before that and the year before that) which was imo the best year for anime last decade.

2005-2007 was a very good patch for anime (yet anime was still doomed back than), you can't keep maintaining the overall quality of that period forever. You're going to have some bad years along with some exceptional ones.

What annoyed me back in 2007 with this same argument is the people making it never even watched stuff like Baccano, Mononoke and co. If you want to judge a scene based on it's mainstream stuff than chances are it's going to look crap.

[synaesthetic]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Ok then... I would deeply appreciate it if someone could point me to this anime generation's Record of Lodoss War.

A sword and sorcery fantasy anime played straight that doesn't borrow extensively from the conventions of modern anime (i.e. catgirls, meidos, tsunderes, etc...).

Everybody forgets Scrapped Princess--oh my god you all fail (except for the one guy that mentioned it). That show is so good and hardly anyone even thinks about it.

I'm actually sort of surprised there's not more epic high fantasy anime series being produced, especially considering the overwhelming popularity of both Lord of the Rings and Harry Potter...