2010-05-21, 17:57 | Link #10421 |
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I was going to counter your latest mega-post, Linkin Battler, but then the internet decided to die on me, and Realus covered most of what I wanted to say anyway.
But what still irritates me about your theory is that your still haven't explained how it get's around what I mentioned before. By Knox's 2nd, it is forbidden for supernatural agencies to be employed as a detective technique. Umineko is an even game, so everything that goes for Battler goes for Beato, and vice versa. If Battler is not allowed to use supernatural agencies to solve the mysteries (which is he isn't, by Knox's 2nd), then Beato is not allowed to use supernatural agencies to commit the murders. I don't think there's much doubt the meta-world counts as a supernatural agency. So she can't use Meta-Beato to assist in the murders, she can't communicate with Meta-Beato if it means that it helps with murdering people, and she can't rely on Meta-Beato for anything. Doing so is confusing fantasy with mystery. Umineko has elements of both, yes; but anybody with some moderate intelligence could separate the two. Not doing so is an insult to the mystery genre. |
2010-05-21, 18:01 | Link #10422 | |
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2010-05-21, 18:09 | Link #10423 | |
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My Blue truth still stands. You cannot prove any of these people are a human Beatrice. And she has to be in the parlor to be a human person. If you claim she is somebody else in the room anyone can claim they are not or that they are somebody else in turn. Anybody here can claim no human beatrice was seen by the witnesses and that therefore she does not exist. Your theory's base has been destroyed.
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2010-05-21, 18:15 | Link #10424 | |
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2010-05-21, 18:16 | Link #10425 | |
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And sorry for posting with the red, it was just an example, I'm gonna editing now xD You have a point, we have no warranty that person was the human Beatrice I talk about. However as it regards Kanon I disagree: that red referred to precise moment of the story, i.e. when one person has been killed in the boiler room. And in that moment no one could have killed Kanon, since he is already dead, you cannot kill people twice! I don't find anything weird at all. And remember there was also the door of the boiler room leading to the garden open and the culprit could have passed with that, so if someone was faking his death on the first twilight he could have killed or else also Beatrice could. But it does not matter, no one could have killed Kanon. And I cannot understand why Kanon has to have been dead by accident °°
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2010-05-21, 18:19 | Link #10426 | |
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However, if that was a fantasy scene where 18 sprites were shown, if THAT parlor did not reflect the real parlor, there is no problem assuming what I said. Lambda precisly said "in THIS parlor" so I can interpret it if I want, I don't see anything weird.
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2010-05-21, 18:24 | Link #10427 | |
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I will not allow magic rooms like that to exist! EDIT: Oh and also: Knox's 8th. It is forbidden for the case to be resolved with clues that are not PRESENTED!! Was it ever shown that fantasy scenes can take place in rooms that are not actually the real rooms on Rokkenjima? EDIT2: Episode 3 shows that there are more than one of each room on different floors. The room Shannon was killed in for example was the "first floor parlor". The room Gohda was killed in was the "third floor waiting room". Considering the structure of the mansion it is not unreasonable for Lambda to say "this parlor" in red since it has been shown that more than one parlor can exist on each floor.
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Last edited by Judoh; 2010-05-21 at 18:40. |
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2010-05-21, 18:31 | Link #10428 | |
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Face it, Linkin. Either your Beatrice has to exist in the mansion's parlor at the time Lambda says the red, or she doesn't exist. Which one is it? |
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2010-05-21, 18:37 | Link #10429 | |
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In fact, it's contradictory to the epitaph if Erika's logic about its purpose is correct. The epitaph is conspicuously displayed, and apparently open to being solved by any old person who happens to do it. If indeed anyone who solves it becomes the next head (and while we aren't sure this is true, it seems plausible), that means the "true" Ushiromiya Kinzo never cared beans about gender, social status, or even family relationship. The Kinzo we have seen in Umineko up until this point is highly suspect. It is equally possible that every action undertaken by Kinzo is as distorted as Natsuhi's vision of a kind Kinzo. |
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2010-05-21, 18:42 | Link #10430 | |
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I think the description Genji gave to Battler that they were similar in personality is probably the least distorted description of Kinzo we have. Although it's only briefly mentioned. So maybe all we should do is imagine what an old man Battler would be like? I'd think he'd be a fun and joking old man at a lot of times.
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2010-05-21, 18:47 | Link #10431 | |
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2010-05-21, 18:50 | Link #10432 | |
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And I was answering to his "you cannot prove any of the person in the parlour is Beatrice", that was what "I did not wanna prove". However, Lambdadelta said "In other words, the number of people in this parlor now is equal to the total number of people on this island", she did not say "All the people on this island are on the parlor", I personally think it is quite different that can also not be casual. And, since it is the third time you (and I don't mean "you singular") are saying it, if I wanted my theory to stand I had just not to post it, if I have posted here is because I wanted to find the weak points, the leaks of my theory to know if he has to be revised or to be rejected. If I find something against this theory ok, but that Lamdbadelta text both for the context and for how it has been put, it can be interpreted in many ways. And that was something I thaught the first time I read EP5, even before creating the theory and it is not something I created "ad hoc".
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2010-05-21, 18:54 | Link #10433 |
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Is he the only example of this? Think about it. Kinzo is the most obvious example, as he never actually appears as a living human being outside the narration of another character or in a circumstance in which it is possible for him to be alive (he appears generally in scenes in 1-4, but on Oct. 4/5 1986, where he cannot possibly be alive). However, is there anyone else in the series, or any part of the series, in which a character's development is characterized solely by what other people think or say about them?
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2010-05-21, 18:56 | Link #10434 | |
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2010-05-21, 18:59 | Link #10435 |
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Well, his relationship with Kinzo is rather remarkably blank, but that actually seems to be true of most of the cousins. Jessica doesn't seem to like him, George has met with him but we haven't seen what was said (and one or both of them may already know he's dead). The only apparent references to Maria are a scene in which ghost-Kinzo is lamenting his family's incompetence and Rosa's statement that Kinzo didn't want her to use the name Maria. We certainly don't seem to know what Maria thinks of her grandfather, though it's very possible she's never actually seen him.
Which kind of makes Rosa's claim that Maria was given the umbrella by Kinzo in ep4 a bit odd. How would Maria know what her grandfather looks like if he's been shut up in his room for nearly as long as she's been capable of assembling coherent memories? |
2010-05-21, 19:01 | Link #10436 | |
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2010-05-21, 19:17 | Link #10439 | |
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Spoiler for WHEELS WITHIN WHEELS:
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