Nanoha Franchise General Discussion Thread

[Keroko]

So what you're essentially saying here is "no I can't prove anything, so I'll just repeat the same assumptions with the same zero backing and still try present it as the most valid theory. Somehow."

I wasn't asking for assumptions Kaijo, I was asking whether you could back a claim that so far every single shred of evidence dug up has made unlikely.

Once more: Can you find any evidence whatsoever that StrikerS was a financial bust?

[Rising Dragon]

This debate's starting to get a little out of hand...

[bhl88]

I just need this line:
3k - fail
4k - Zero profit
10k - successful
20k - very successful
30k - ultra successful
40k - damn successful
50k - Lyrically successful
60k-90k - dammit.... I can't find words for this...
100k - mainstream

[Keroko]

Originally Posted by Rising Dragon

This debate's starting to get a little out of hand...

Yeah, you're right. Screw it, I'll drop it. Let Kaijo have his last post on this to be fair but I think we're done here.

[Kaijo]

Was just about to say the same, RD. Since none of us have access to financial statements, or statements from Tsuzuki or 7arcs, all we can do is guess. So, it's mostly mental masturbation. Everyone can continue to believe what they like, since no, Keroko, I don't have financial statements from the company, the same as you (which I've stated several times). We've all stated our reasons, and why we believe that, and we can leave it at that.

[Demi.]

It took awhile, but I finally finished. It's not impossible that I'm a couple minutes off, because it was hard to know when I should and shouldn't be clocking their screen time. Like during fights when the view was on Signum or Vita and not Nanoha Fate, so I generally just combined the screen time of the whole fight for those instances.

Anyways, without further ado...

Fate: 49 minutes and 55 seconds throughout the span of the whole movie
Nanoha: 50 minutes and 25 seconds throughout the whole movie.

It is very possible that their times are identical, but one thing is for certain, Fate does not have more screen time than Nanoha.

Also they both have a lot less screen time than one might think, considering Kaijo assumed Fate had roughly 1hr and 40minutes worth of screen time, when she barely had half of that.

[bhl88]

Originally Posted by Demi.

It took awhile, but I finally finished. It's not impossible that I'm a couple minutes off, because it was hard to know when I should and shouldn't be clocking their screen time. Like during fights when the view was on Signum or Vita and not Nanoha Fate, so I generally just combined the screen time of the whole fight for those instances.

Anyways, without further ado...

Fate: 49 minutes and 55 seconds throughout the span of the whole movie
Nanoha: 50 minutes and 25 seconds throughout the whole movie.

It is very possible that their times are identical, but one thing is for certain, Fate does not have more screen time than Nanoha.

Also they both have a lot less screen time than one might think, considering Kaijo assumed Fate had roughly 1hr and 40minutes worth of screen time, when she barely had half of that.

What about Hayate and the Wolks XD

[Nanya01]

So, they both get 33% of the movie each.

That being said, most of it was with each other, but still... That's a good chunk of the movie.

[Demi.]

If by most you mean 75% of it, then yeah. Plus a large part of their screen time were group scenes where all or several characters were the focus.

Originally Posted by bhl88

What about Hayate and the Wolks XD

/lazy

[Nanya01]

Originally Posted by Demi.

If by most you mean 75% of it, then yeah. Plus a large part of their screen time were group scenes where all or several characters were the focus.

so, 33% of the movie to themselves or each other and about 62.5 minutes where they were in a group?

[Demi.]

Their screen time is the total of all individual and group scenes combined.

Which means not a whole lot of their screen time had them as the only focus.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Sheba

Yeah, I wonder how many in this subforum have watched this sprawling epic casting more characters than the japanese alphabet.

Legend of Galactic Heroes ran for a whopping 110 episodes. So that's not at all an appropriate comparison here.

Originally Posted by Nanya01

Of those 31, we have 11 that are returning characters, so you still have 20 new characters to develop, which can be a lot, I admit.

However, Keroko is right, the Numbers should have been introduced sooner to give them more development.

I'll grant you that a bit less training and a bit more Numbers would have helped, yeah. But StrikerS was always biting off a bit more than it could chew, imo.

I'd like to point out that Negima introduced 32 characters not named Negi right away.

Which is why Negima strictly limited character cast expansion beyond that, IIRC.

Didn't think you'd try this, TR. You are trying to tie StrikerS into a reason why Chrono and Lindy can't get development in A's.

Let's put aside, for a second, what we personally would like or dislike.

My point is this - StrikerS diminished the standing of certain characters in the minds of the broader Nanoha fandom. This is because they were pushed aside more - Yuuno and Arf barely show up in StrikerS, for example. I likewise can't remember Chrono getting many scenes in StrikerS (which honestly I regret; Chrono as an adult male struck me as really cool and well-rounded).

StrikerS diminished the perceived presence of these characters, which I think undermined their standing some for the reboot movies.

I'm not saying I like it, I'm saying that once a character gets pushed way into the background, it can be difficult to restore him or her to a certain level of prominence.

The word "bloat" ius not usually applied until StrikerS, which means we presume S1 and A's still have a decent-sized cast, and apparently it is unrealistic to expect that people get development who are directly, emotionally tied to the plot via a tragic backstory. You know, you agreed with my changes before (Chrono/Fate dream eater), so I presume you thought they were realistic. Are you going back on that now?

To the extent that I agree with you, it's because I think it would be for the best. And I can imagine it, at least.

Nonetheless, Fate is massively more important to this franchise than Chrono and Yuuno currently is. That's a meta-level fact that just can't be ignored if you want to have realistic expectations for the Nanoha films. It's fine to not like this, but at some point, I feel like I'm talking to people who's major underdog pro sports team just lost (predictably) in the finals. It's sad, sure, but it's not like it should surprise you.

Originally Posted by Keroko

Gurren Lagann, for one. That also had a cast of 30-something people. All of them new, too.

There's something that Gurren Lagann (and Gundam shows in general) have the guts to do that frankly the Nanoha franchise does not. Kill numerous named characters, including important protagonists. This doesn't just provide great, memorable action scenes and/or awesome final sendoffs, it also helps keep a cast manageable.

Would Gurren Lagann had been able to give Nia the development she deserved if a certain someone hadn't went out in a blaze of glory just before her arrival? I'm not sure.

And just to be clear, I won't play character favoritism here. I'm at a point where even Nanoha herself getting killed by a major villain is something I could imagine myself getting behind. I mean, if it was handled like Superman's death, at least it would be a truly epic heroic send-off, the final exclamation mark on a legendary hero's life and legacy.

[Nanya01]

Still, the question I have now is, even though Nanoha got 30 seconds more than Fate did, how much of that was development for Nanoha vs how much that was development for Fate?

Would Gurren Lagann had been able to give Nia the development she deserved if a certain someone hadn't went out in a blaze of glory just before her arrival? I'm not sure.

Five words to find your answer...

Spin-off High School Manga.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Sunder the Gold

Wait, did you just use me as a rhetorical weapon in your on-going battle with Kaijo?

No, no, I really did think you gave a good answer, and I was commending you for it.

I then segued into a reply to Kaijo without actually quoting his post just to save space.

[Reckoner]

Originally Posted by Kaijo

My point exactly: we don't have actual data. So, until we do, it's all guesswork. You don't have to believe my reasoning. I'm only stating what it would take to convince me. If you don't care about convincing me, then it shouldn't matter.

Convincing you that Strikers was profitable?

Look, we have plenty of evidence in the anime industry to strongly suggest that Strikers was quite profitable. We don't need to see the financial statements. Is there a chance that they made Strikers at a loss? The idea seems absolutely ludicrous. To say there is a chance that it was made at a loss is like saying President Obama was born in Kenya . I'll give you that much. All the evidence though backs up the idea that Strikers was a huge success.

[Nanya01]

Also...

Which is why Negima strictly limited character cast expansion beyond that, IIRC.

Um, yeah, that's why they still had 2-3 other teachers, the Dean, the Kyoto Arc that introduced Kotaro, Fate, Konoka's father almost right after the series started. XP

[Sunder the Gold]

In regards to exact screentime of Nanoha and Fate:

Numbers don't include the amount of screentime they share, nor what time they share with others (or serve as a background character), nor what that time is used for.

I'll remind you all that I actually wanted MORE Fate-time in StrikerS, but not just ANY Fate-time. I very specifically wanted her to have screen-time in which she performed her job as an investigator. Or time spent developing her relationship with Erio and Caro.

The time must be the most relevant to the story's plot and cast.


The controversial Lotus Eater Dream segment is not completely irrelevant to the rest of the cast, but it is mostly so since it only indirectly touches upon her relationship with Lindy and Chrono. It's not about her willingness to become part of a new family or start a new life, it's a re-emphasis on her previous decision to leave her old self/life behind.

Further, it is almost completely irrelevant to the central plot of the season, and furthermore makes absolutely no damned sense as an action that Reinforce would take with one of the girls she wanted to kill and not the other.

Something more relevant to the cast would have been a NanoFate scene in which Fate pours out her heart to Nanoha concerning Lindy's offer of adoption. However, a scene would have no bearing on the central plot; unless the storyboarding for an episode requires context-appropriate filler, this heart-pouring scene could be shoved off entirely into a Sound Stage episode. (What else to use Sound Dramas for, if not to explore tangents?)

A movie's storyboarding concerns are different, since it has less time and doesn't come in episodes. A movie would have no room for such a scene, since it does nothing to further the central plot or themes of the movie itself.

Something more relevant to botht the cast and the plot would be Chrono and Lindy privately discussing Fate's possible adoption between themselves, as their family situation is EXTREMELY relevant to the second season/movie. A willingness to adopt someone into their family shows a willingness to move on and grow past the loss of Clyde Hallahoun. This willingness would tie into Chrono and Lindy's abiltiy to forgive the Wolkenritter's association with the Book of Darkness.

[Demi.]

Originally Posted by Nanya01

Still, the question I have now is, even though Nanoha got 30 seconds more than Fate did, how much of that was development for Nanoha vs how much that was development for Fate?

That is largely irrelevant though, in my opinion. Because Nanoha's lack of development is the fault of the studio, not the fault of Fate's screen time. And I'm not arguing the former point.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Nanya01

Five words to find your answer...

Spin-off High School Manga.

Yeah, because a High School-focused manga is totally the same as what we saw in the Gurren Lagann TV show.

Good grief, Nanya....


Anyway, I take it that you think that the total number of characters in StrikerS is perfectly fine? You don't think it would benefit at all from having a few less characters to juggle?

Originally Posted by Nanya01

Um, yeah, that's why they still had 2-3 other teachers, the Dean, the Kyoto Arc that introduced Kotaro, Fate, Konoka's father almost right after the series started. XP

"Strictly limited" doesn't mean "none at all". A school with just one teacher wouldn't be terribly realistic. And a property like Negima needs an antagonist (hence Fate).

[Rising Dragon]

Originally Posted by Reckoner

Convincing you that Strikers was profitable?

I think overall what Kaijo was trying to say was, regardless of profit, something happened during StrikerS that seems to have curtailed any animated seasons from being developed, and he's figuring it's something to do with the economics of the franchise.