Females in anime/manga

[uzumaki]

(I searched for some keywords, but couldn't find anything. I'd be surprised to death, though, if this hasn't been discussed yet)
(editing to correct generalizatons, which everyone hates, of course)

I've just been reading Death note, and after they repeated the phrase 'women are so stupid' for the umpteenth time I lost the last straw. What's up with the treatment of women/girls in (an overwhelming number of) anime and manga anyway? If it's shounen they practically don't exist except for shallow, primitive, school-girly fan service, if it's a serious show they are mostly these housewives in aprons chopping lettuce who say things like, "I'll always be by your side...I am completely devoted to your dreams....", and if it's shojo it almost always has these annoying, unnaturally innocent, giggling girls who blush at every second and are pretty brainless and clutzy.

Either that or you have gun slinging action babes who are fantastically exaggerated in everyway, and, once again, there for fan service.

I know in reality women don't compare to men in physical strength, but on an intellectual level they are quite at the same level as men. We've all heard the popular saying "women have no logic", but on average they still have about 50 times more logic than typical anime females (and in anime, saying typical means roughly 80% of the character population), who are dismally and consistently dissapointing.

Rare exception to such treatment include Miyazaki's work (or what I've seen of it, anyways)...and maybe shows like Monster, Kino no tabi....mmm. There must be some others out there, but it's pretty sad that out of an industry that is the most popular entertainment of an entire nation (Japan), and one of the most popular in others (including U.S), only a handful of shows even try to be gender equal, and/ or address issues related to the matter.

[ultrataro]

It's the market. They make what sells and since the bulk of the market for anime is young males, thats what you'll find the bulk of targeted. A couple recent exceptions that has garnered some success so looks like it'll continue is the josei (young women) shows of Honey & Clover and Paradise Kiss.

[Hikari]

I'm sick of it as well which is why I tend avoid shows that depict women as such.

While most of the time you see these types of characters only in male fan service animes, it appears in other genres as well. Maybe it's a more broader reflection of the Japanese culture and how women are perceived there by male anime fans and in the general society. Never been to Japan but surely women there do not act like that in real life.

Maybe a forum member from Japan like kj1980 may be able to give more insight. I once heard someone talk about there being some kind of "ideal women" stereotype that is prevalent in Japan. It includes many of the the traits of the cliche female anime personalities that you have mentioned. There's even a word for it but it escapes me at the moment.

[Aristophanes]

Originally Posted by uzumaki

(I searched for some keywords, but couldn't find anything. I'd be surprised to death, though, if this hasn't been discussed yet)

I've just been reading Death note, and after they repeated the phrase 'women are so stupid' for the umpteenth time I lost the last straw. What's up with the treatment of women/girls in anime and manga anyway? If it's shounen they practically don't exist except for shallow, primitive, school-girly fan service, if it's a serious show they are always these housewives in aprons chopping lettuce who say things like, "I'll always be by your side...I am completely devoted to your dreams....", and if it's shojo it always has these annoying, unnaturally innocent, giggling girls who blush at every second and are pretty brainless and clutzy. Either that or you have gun slinging action babes who are fantastically exaggerated in everyway, and, once again, there for fan service.
I know in reality women don't compare to men in physical strength, but on an intellectual level they are quite at the same level as men. We've all heard the popular saying "women have no logic", but on average they still have about 50 times more logic than anime females, who are dismally and consistently dissapointing.

Rare exception to such treatment include Miyazaki's work (or what I've seen of it, anyways)...and maybe shows like Monster, Kino no tabi....mmm. There must be some others out there, but it's pretty sad that out of an industry that is the most popular entertainment of an entire nation (Japan), and one of the most popular in others (including U.S), only a handful of shows even try to be gender equal, and/ or address issues related to the matter.

Yawnnnnn.....more feminists making more sweeping generalisations. The shows that feature fanservice regularly are called echhi, they're not meant to be realistic portrayals in the same way that nearly all pornos aren't realistic....

Seriously you're so wrong it's not funny, Rahxephon, Nge, Cowboy bebop, Samurai Champloo, Mezzo, NOIR, MADLAX, MOST OF THE GUNDAM SERIES and Haibane Renmai are some of the series I can think of that feature women who are strong, intelligent and even... gasp realistic.

Your logic is warped...can someone close this silly thread.

[DaFool]

Aquarian Age, Blue Submarine No 6, Crest of the Stars / Banner of the Stars/ Battleflag of the Stars, Full Metal Panic / Fumoffu / 2nd Raid, Gankutsuou, Genshiken, Ghost in the Shell (yes Motoko Kusanagi does have an excellent brain to go along with her body), Gilgamesh, Gunparade March, Gunslinger Girls (omg these little girls have brains!), Hellsing, Jubei Chan / 2, Juuni Kokki, Kimi ga Nozomu Eien, Kita He (most realistic depiction of girls' lives and behavior coming from this based on h-game...yeah!), Someday's Dreamers, Maria-sama ga Miteru / Haru, Princess Arete, Read or Die TV / OVA, Samurai Champloo, Scrapped Princess, Sheep's Song OVA, Shamanic Princess, Vampire Princess Miyu, Zettai Shonen, Trava Fist Planet, Witch Hunter Robin, Noein,

...all have fairly intelligent heroines who don't live on being support team or T&A or kicking ass with humongous bazookas or what not. Believe it or not, but anime is actually more feminist then general Japanese media and culture.

Originally Posted by Hikari

I once heard someone talk about there being some kind of "ideal women" stereotype that is prevalent in Japan. It includes many of the the traits of the cliche female anime personalities that you have mentioned. There's even a word for it but it escapes me at the moment.

Yamato Nadesico

Originally Posted by uzumaki

, but it's pretty sad that out of an industry that is the most popular entertainment of an entire nation (Japan), and one of the most popular in others (including U.S), only a handful of shows even try to be gender equal, and/ or address issues related to the matter.

Misconception that anime is most popular entertainment in Japan. Ask kj, anime is only for otakus, videogamers, industry professionals, and little kids, same conception as rest of the world.

Originally Posted by Thelastguardian

No male (or at least 90% of Asian male) wants to get caught reading a shoujo manga. It is obviously that since the female Japanese population like shoujo, they defined the premise of modern shoujo series. Go complain to the female population in Japan.

Please don't make the same mistake of generalizing.

[Thelastguardian]

Huh? Let me get this straight, you are complaining about 1. Death Note 2. shounen 3. shoujo

Let's break this down.
1. Death Note- the story requires it; if you have beef about Death Note, please go over to its manga thread. Also, DN is unique in a way that the main character is an antihero aka evil. Keep this in mind.

2. Shounen- Which age target are the shounen series that you object? 9-15 (Naruto)? 16-24(a. Gundam not Seed b. usually not pure shounen)? This makes a big difference in what you would experience. The shounen genre is very diverse and you should not make accusation to it if you don't have series from each shounen sub-section to back you up.

3. Shoujo- I don't understand this. Shoujo is aimed at female. No male (or at least 90% of Asian male) wants to get caught reading a shoujo manga. It is obviously that since the female Japanese population like shoujo, they defined the premise of modern shoujo series. Go complain to the female population in Japan.
And again the target age problem, but you get my point.

In regrads to your "annoying, unnaturally innocent, giggling girls who blush at every second and are pretty brainless and clutzy. Either that or you have gun slinging action babes who are fantastically exaggerated in everyway" observation. There are literally three routes an author can take.

He could create a groomy, apthetic character where he acts cooly towards anything (FFVII's Cloud) until the real plot starts.

Or he could make a cheerful, clueless character (Trigun's Vash and Love Hina's Keitaro come to mind) that, in certain stages of the story, his personality becomes crucial.

Or he could create a "normal" character that, throughout the story, experience events that change his view on certain topic such as, but not limited to, love, world, war/peace, relationship, power, wealth, belonging.

You see a patten here? A story is supposed to be interesting and transform the main character. There should be conflicts between the main character and others. By solving the conflicts the main character is changed. To do this, the easiest way (and 99% of the authors use) is to have a certain type of character that is susceptible to problem and so that the author can exploits his/her weakness easily.
Example of this would be "hot-blooded" shounen male lead, "whiny innocent" school girl, "cold-blooded" killer, "clueless" harem male lead and so on and forth.

They are just devices employed by the author of the story.

You have made a gross generalization of Japanese anime. There are series that are, as you say, has the idea 'women are so stupid' in its theme. However, do not use view this idea as the general underlying of all anime series. Your comment, quite frankly, irks me.

[uzumaki]

Originally Posted by Thelastguardian

Huh? Let me get this straight, you are complaining about 1. Death Note 2. shounen 3. shoujo

Let's break this down.
1. Death Note- the story requires it; if you have beef about Death Note, please go over to its manga thread. Also, DN is unique in a way that the main character is an antihero aka evil. Keep this in mind.

Are you saying that the DN storyline requires misogyny? If that is the case, you've already proven my point. Such a popular and entertaining manga is misogynist, and according to you, that is a requirement for the story. Tsk, tsk. I thought we were all aiming for a better world. And your comment about Raito being the antihero is irrelevent. Not only Raito, but nearly all his adversaries express explicit contempt for the female characters in the story, and for good reason, too: they are mostly silly, shallow and naive characters.

2. Shounen- Which age target are the shounen series that you object? 9-15 (Naruto)? 16-24(a. Gundam not Seed b. usually not pure shounen)? This makes a big difference in what you would experience. The shounen genre is very diverse and you should not make accusation to it if you don't have series from each shounen sub-section to back you up.

Since I am making an argument against what the usual case is, I cannot possibly avoid generalizations. I don't know what you mean by "not pure shonen", but in shounen anime such as Naruto, you have a fine character with potential (Sakura), who is completely and infuriatingly worthless throughout the first few seasons, then she goes through a supposedly radical change, which turns out to be...no change at all! Sakura's just her usual worthless self as always, as was expected.

3. Shoujo- I don't understand this. Shoujo is aimed at female. No male (or at least 90% of Asian male) wants to get caught reading a shoujo manga. It is obviously that since the female Japanese population like shoujo, they defined the premise of modern shoujo series. Go complain to the female population in Japan.
And again the target age problem, but you get my point.

What does that have to do with my comment? All I said that in a lot of shojos, girls are "annoying, unnaturally innocent, giggling girls who blush at every second and are pretty brainless and clutzy." I'm not saying anything else, about anybody's age, the Japanese people, the intended audience...nothing about that!

In regrads to your "annoying, unnaturally innocent, giggling girls who blush at every second and are pretty brainless and clutzy. Either that or you have gun slinging action babes who are fantastically exaggerated in everyway" observation. There are literally three routes an author can take.

He could create a groomy, apthetic character where he acts cooly towards anything (FFVII's Cloud) until the real plot starts.

Or he could make a cheerful, clueless character (Trigun's Vash and Love Hina's Keitaro come to mind) that, in certain stages of the story, his personality becomes crucial.

Or he could create a "normal" character that, throughout the story, experience events that change his view on certain topic such as, but not limited to, love, world, war/peace, relationship, power, wealth, belonging.

You see a patten here? A story is supposed to be interesting and transform the main character. There should be conflicts between the main character and others. By solving the conflicts the main character is changed. To do this, the easiest way (and 99% of the authors use) is to have a certain type of character that is susceptible to problem and so that the author can exploits his/her weakness easily.
Example of this would be "hot-blooded" shounen male lead, "whiny innocent" school girl, "cold-blooded" killer, "clueless" harem male lead and so on and forth.

They are just devices employed by the author of the story.

Once again...What???? What are you talking about? I'm doing everything in my power to not be rude to you, but I must point out that I was talking about the overabundance of the aforemention (timid, naive, etc) kind of female characters in shojo anime. If you are justifying their flaws by saying that the authors are unoriginal, formulaic creators, who, since they cannot create realistic female (as well as male, according to you) characters, chose out the typical weak, stereotypical school girl, you are not only supporting my argument, but also adding to it the fact that anime lack original and inspiring female and male characters.

You have made a gross generalization of Japanese anime. There are series that are, as you say, has the idea 'women are so stupid' in its theme. However, do not use view this idea as the general underlying of all anime series. Your comment, quite frankly, irks me.

Sorry, but from the judgement of someone in a fairly liberal part of the U.S, most anime has worthless and foolish female characters. If you can't tell the difference, it's another matter.

Originally Posted by Aristophanes

Yawnnnnn.....more feminists making more sweeping generalisations. The shows that feature fanservice regularly are called echhi, they're not meant to be realistic portrayals in the same way that nearly all pornos aren't realistic....

Seriously you're so wrong it's not funny, Rahxephon, Nge, Cowboy bebop, Samurai Champloo, Mezzo, NOIR, MADLAX, MOST OF THE GUNDAM SERIES and Haibane Renmai are some of the series I can think of that feature women who are strong, intelligent and even... gasp realistic.

Your logic is warped...can someone close this silly thread.

You're argument would've been fine if you hadn't made the usual close-minded suggestion of closing down the thread. Have I struck a cord?

With the exemption of Fuu from Samurai Champloo, and some of the characters from the original (ancient) Gundum, few of the lead females in your examples are realistic. Raxhphon and NGE have characters with blown up proportions, and this applies to the females as well of course. Why, the symbol of fanservice, our good Ayanami Rei, is one of the most important and popular characters from the show (I can't believe you let me have this one so easily). Others like Asuka and Misato are highly dependent and irrational (to say the least) characters whose dominance is only emphasised to serve as contrast to the main character, and, of course, for fan service.

Faye Valentine, if entertaining and interesting, is not realistic. She is one of those "gun slinging" babes I was talking about. The rest have dignity, at least, but they do not have what it takes to be respected and are often undeveloped, usually serving as a slot for a required female character, lest the work appear too unnatural without them. I never said that there are no anime with fair treatment. I said that there are only a few.

DaFool, I'm sorry, I never knew that anime is not the most popular form of entertainment in Japan. Also....

Originally Posted by DaFool

Aquarian Age...
...all have fairly intelligent heroines who don't live on being support team or T&A or kicking ass with humongous bazookas or what not. Believe it or not, but anime is actually more feminist then general Japanese media and culture.

I won't be stupid enough to say that I have seen all of the shows you mentioned, but of the ones I have seen, certainly, there are some who deserve respect, but many other 'strong', 'independent' women are spoiled by an attempt to stuff their character with fanservice. Others are robot-minded babes who are ruthless and not much else. As for Kimi Ga N.E, I don't know how that fits in at all, it's filled with the typical harem females. Blushing constantly...unrealistically timid...having nothing but a desire to get on with their man...etc, etc.
The last part of your comment is what is really thought provoking, IMO. I suppose I am judging from a place where I can see how strangely lacking these characters are, but from the place it is made in...it might be normal. Not quite the utopia, the origin of such shows, certainly.

[Thelastguardian]

Aiming for a better world? I am sorry. Please elaborate. To me, manga are escape stories. They are not aiming for a better world, whatever that means (or make the world better?). They are trying to entertain the readers.
I have never said that "looking down on female" is required (Beggin the Question) for DN; I am merely saying that for this story to be entertaining to most people (you clearly not the case), certain questionable elements and ideas must be used. Do we not see certain questionable movies in western culture that are popular?

And really, why do the victims have to be smart? They are getting manipulated, afterall. Furthermore, they may appear dumb to you because you can see the scheme of the main character thru third person point of view

There are shounen (9-15), bishoujo, seinen, shoujo, bishounen, josei, seinen , and one or two others that I couldn't remember.

Each person's definition of what defines the section is different; however they do form the taxonomy of anime, like it or not. Saying "shounen sucks" or "shoujo is crap" without further clarification is just insulting.

Here is what I understand from reading your post about "shoujo" part.

"Whiny girls/gun busting girls/only-thinking-of-male-lead girls are unrealistic and bad because they do not display what women truely are and how they behave in the real world. Why are the Japanese portraying them as such?"

I said "because the shoujo target population, which is Japanese female from 9-15, demands them to be; or else why would the series be so popular."

What's so confusing about that :/ .

As to the character part, I agree that my arguement is too confusing. Here is a one liner -
They are sterotypical because the authors want to exploit the character's personality weakness ASAP in the story to create conflicts; From these conflicts we would have plots, rising action and so on and finally, character development.

Again anime is not the only industry guilty at this. Pulp fictions that you can buy for $4 in Wal-mart are guilty. Many Hollywood movies are guilty. TV series are guilty. Even Shakespeare's famous plays such as Romeo and Juliet and The Taming of the Shrew, are guilty.

Maybe the sterotypical shounen doesn't bother you (and shoujo does, apparently), but it does bother me. Therefore I made a general arguement that encompasses sterotypical characters in shoujo, shounen, and others.

As to the worthless comment- I wouldn't say *most* . More like 50% . There are many series that are good, you just don't see them in North America, that's all. Afterall, why would anyone wants to fansub/translate boring stories that have no cute girl.
Of course, for true otaku, that number is close to zero. But I digress.

[kujoe]

Originally Posted by uzumaki

What does that have to do with my comment? All I said that in a lot of shojos, girls are "annoying, unnaturally innocent, giggling girls who blush at every second and are pretty brainless and clutzy."

About shoujo--yes, I think I understand what you mean. Fans often say that shoujo beats shounen in any given day, but all I have to do is look at the characters and wonder what the hell I'm not getting. Granted, Yuu Watase's stuff is probably the only shoujo I've seen in the past, but the damage has already long been done. Even today, it seems shoujo also suffers from character types that I personally find either annoying or silly. Just a general observation... I'm talking about purely shoujo-centric stories here, and I do realize that there are some (or a few..) shoujo stories that are indeed good. I'm just not into them.

Of course, the same can be said for any genre. But I think the main concern here are character types. The character types that sell, attract the intended audience and entertain, become the template from which other characters will be written from. Only a few grow into truly great characters separate from the rest, and while you have the boobs and the lolis on one side, it doesn't mean that all is lost.

Others have already mentioned a few worthy titles that have great female characters. At the top of my head, Juuni Kokki is right up there.

GITS also comes to mind--and despite Motoko's fanservicey looks, her artifical body demystifies the fantasy in some strange way.

Well, I guess there's also Tsukihime. It looks like some serious harem show, but I don't think you can categorize this anime along with Love Hina either.

In the end, you can help yourself by choosing the anime you watch. If you want to cast blame, then you might as well look towards the audience and the fans as well. Also remember that this phenomenon isn't exclusive to female characters. I mean, how many silly, angsty bishounen have you seen lately?

[Aristophanes]

Originally Posted by uzumaki

You're argument would've been fine if you hadn't made the usual close-minded suggestion of closing down the thread. Have I struck a cord?

With the exemption of Fuu from Samurai Champloo, and some of the characters from the original (ancient) Gundum, few of the lead females in your examples are realistic. Raxhphon and NGE have characters with blown up proportions, and this applies to the females as well of course. Why, the symbol of fanservice, our good Ayanami Rei, is one of the most important and popular characters from the show (I can't believe you let me have this one so easily). Others like Asuka and Misato are highly dependent and irrational (to say the least) characters whose dominance is only emphasised to serve as contrast to the main character, and, of course, for fan service.

Faye Valentine, if entertaining and interesting, is not realistic. She is one of those "gun slinging" babes I was talking about. The rest have dignity, at least, but they do not have what it takes to be respected and are often undeveloped, usually serving as a slot for a required female character, lest the work appear too unnatural without them. I never said that there are no anime with fair treatment. I said that there are only a few.

DaFool, I'm sorry, I never knew that anime is not the most popular form of entertainment in Japan. Also....

I won't be stupid enough to say that I have seen all of the shows you mentioned, but of the ones I have seen, certainly, there are some who deserve respect, but many other 'strong', 'independent' women are spoiled by an attempt to stuff their character with fanservice. Others are robot-minded babes who are ruthless and not much else. As for Kimi Ga N.E, I don't know how that fits in at all, it's filled with the typical harem females. Blushing constantly...unrealistically timid...having nothing but a desire to get on with their man...etc, etc.
The last part of your comment is what is really thought provoking, IMO. I suppose I am judging from a place where I can see how strangely lacking these characters are, but from the place it is made in...it might be normal. Not quite the utopia, the origin of such shows, certainly.

Lol you're seriously warped babe
1. How much gundam have you watched? Victory and Wing have strong, intellectual women who are not 'out of proportion.
2. What the hells wrong with having tits? Not everyone is flat chested oi.
Let's adress your idiotic responses in order.
3. I noticed that you forgot to mention that the protaginist in NGE is a weak whimp who is actually helped by these women who you so scornfully refer to.
4. Which reminds ever notice that most of the men in these horrible horrible harems are also weak and indecisive....not exactly in line with normal Macho stereotypes?
5. btw about shoujo, which charactres are giggly? In which anime? Because most of the Shoujo I've read or seen is nothing like what your talking about..
6.OMFG leave cowboy bebop out of it! Faye is what we call a Femme fatale, a fallen woman. Her character isn't merely in the anime to serve as fan service, it's serve's the theme. Aka...Jazzy, film noir and Westerns. But I 'spose you haven't seen much of either since they are so "unrealistic
7. And come on KGNE is seinen,ecchhi or whatever. So what?!?!? The girls are meant to blush...lady lighten up.
8. The origins of the show WTF you expect BIG ROBOTS AND LETHAL SEXY ANDROIDS to be a realistic portrayal of society Maybe you should stick to books....

Btw you mentioned you'd come from a 'liberal' part of the states, well for a while I couldn't understand why there was such a big right wing reaction after the turn of the century....now I see why. Your pinkos went to far, nothing is ever good enough for you guys, the other day I was on a American forum which had a thread proclaiming that Lord of the rings was a conspiracy against blacks..yea right......

[kari-no-sugata]

Originally Posted by kujoe

About shoujo--yes, I think I understand what you mean. Fans often say that shoujo beats shounen in any given day, but all I have to do is look at the characters and wonder what the hell I'm not getting. Granted, Yuu Watase's stuff is probably the only shoujo I've seen in the past, but the damage has already long been done. Even today, it seems shoujo also suffers from character types that I personally find either annoying or silly. Just a general observation... I'm talking about purely shoujo-centric stories here, and I do realize that there are some (or a few..) shoujo stories that are indeed good. I'm just not into them.

I like more shounen manga/anime series than shoujo, but since there's plenty of shoujo series I do like, I'd advise you not to give up on shoujo just yet. Maybe you could explain what you like (and don't like) on the "suggestions" forum and ask for examples. I don't particularly like Yuu Watase's works either as there's too much angst for my tastes - I tend to refer to that sort of thing as "Shoujo disease" since I find it seriously offputting.

[tugatosmk]

I feel your generalizations are exagerated. All female in shounen stories are stupid and dumb? Give me a break! Sure, some might appear to be like that, but in reality their personalities are different. Have you ever heard the expression "there is more than meets the eye"? I've read/watched tons of manga/anime for over 15 years and those who really are stupid/dumb are a very small fraction of the whole.

For example, try reading Mitsuru Adachi's works like Touch, Hiatari Ryoukou, Katsu!, Miyuki or H2. They're all shounens, but most (if not all) females have a very realistic personality, inteligence and also good realistic looks. (Not that most anime doesn't have women like this, IMO) Just because you don't know of their existence doesn't mean they don't exist at all.

You said you come from a "liberal part of america". Let's not forget that anime/manga are made towards the japanese audience. Even if we consider the "stereotypes" you mentioned to be 100% true, so what? This is aimed at them, not at America!

There's also the cultural aspect. The way manga/anime has been conceived in Japan is something that's been a subject of discussion in a number of places. It's something so different from everything else I've ever seen in the literature/media... It's something that is deeply influenced by many aspects of the japanese culture - to a larger extent: the asian culture.

The asian has aspects that are different from the western culture, maybe some of them are the "stereotypes" you mentioned. Who are we western people to question it? If you don't respect a foreign country's culture then you might not be as liberal as you claim to be.

[kujoe]

Originally Posted by kari-no-sugata

I like more shounen manga/anime series than shoujo, but since there's plenty of shoujo series I do like, I'd advise you not to give up on shoujo just yet. Maybe you could explain what you like (and don't like) on the "suggestions" forum and ask for examples. I don't particularly like Yuu Watase's works either as there's too much angst for my tastes - I tend to refer to that sort of thing as "Shoujo disease" since I find it seriously offputting.

I've seen some that are a mixture of influences such as Escaflowne, and I did like that series--but yeah, I also did get the impression that the main heroine somehow suffered from this shoujo disease you're referring to. On the other hand, I'm not into KareKano as some people are.

It's not that I'm hating anything written by a woman. It's just really about the silliness that some shoujo get into that I'm talking about--the stereotypical kind, the kind of shoujo that uzumaki reminds me of. (Juuni Kokki for example, is more of my kind of show, and unless I'm not mistaken, Fuyumi Ono is a woman as well. Well, I don't think you can label her works as purely "shoujo" though..) It's just that either I'm not into the genre, or I'm not just part of the intended audience to begin with. (shoujo)

Then again, Yuu Watase scarred my life already. To put it simply, if I wanted to read or watch some drama set in an Asian fantasy world, I'd definitely choose Juuni Kokki over Fushigi Yuugi in any given day. If the writing is good with good characters--that's all I require--I don't particularly pay attention to categories or genres. Not always at least.

[Dragnfly@Gamefaqs]

After reading all that, uzumaki, I've gotta be honest. Maybe japanese media just isn't right for you. I know it doesn't appeal to everybody and you're just gonna hurt your own feelings if you stick with it, I think. The things you've mentioned are broken up into two cases. In one case you just haven't watched stuff and you're just generalizing based on character art and screenshots. Shows such as KGNE are pretty much devoid of "giggly blushing" girls. This is why so many of your points seem horribly out of place. The second case is that you're not looking from the male perspective to find your answers. Looking at all applicable perspectives may not always solve the problem but it will at least help you understand why it's a problem. To guys, we see a lot of men we'd wanna hit with a 2x4 because they're so spineless. We see lots of men who are more beautiful and pictureesque than the women, who are far too eager to take their shirts off for most of our liking. Does this mean all anime characters suck? No. It just means you need to look past the surface.

So I'll ask this in hopes of saving another person from wandering away from the western otaku world. What is it that you're really looking for in an anime? Take it to the Suggestions thread and don't just discard people's opinions. For the most part people on this board seem to be relatively intelligent and you may get a series that is to your liking.

About a decade back I was always complaining about the number of miscilaneously angsty bishounen in shows but after asking at my local club I came to terms that it was just another character type and it only stood out as a majority to me because it bugged me. Now, I can watch the latest mecha animes and smile knowing that angsty bishi is just one in a series of other likable characters.

Perhaps looking for a strong female lead isn't as important as NOT finding a weak one to you. Watch something like Ichigo Mashimaro (currently liscensed) or Azumanga Daioh (currently liscensed) and see if they appeal to you more.

[kari-no-sugata]

Originally Posted by kujoe

I've seen some that are a mixture of influences such as Escaflowne, and I did like that series--but yeah, I also did get the impression that the main heroine somehow suffered from this shoujo disease you're referring to. On the other hand, I'm not into KareKano as some people are.

There's actually two Escaflowne manga series, one shounen one shoujo

For KareKano, there's some bits that I rather like, and some bits that rather put me off. I've read most of it, but I've stopped following it.

Originally Posted by kujoe

It's not that I'm hating anything written by a woman. It's just really about the silliness that some shoujo get into that I'm talking about--the stereotypical kind, the kind of shoujo that uzumaki reminds me of. (Juuni Kokki for example, is more of my kind of show, and unless I'm not mistaken, Fuyumi Ono is a woman as well. Well, I don't think you can label her works as purely "shoujo" though..) It's just that either I'm not into the genre, or I'm not just part of the intended audience to begin with. (shoujo)

Unfortunately, there's very little anime that matches up to the awesomeness of Juuni Kokki (though novel based anime is generally the best). Yeah, "Fuyumi" is almost always a female name, and with the particular kanji, I believe it's always a woman's name.

btw, originally, "shoujo manga" was written by men, though that started changing quite quickly.

Then again, Yuu Watase scarred my life already. To put it simply, if I wanted to read or watch some drama set in an Asian fantasy world, I'd definitely choose Juuni Kokki over Fushigi Yuugi in any given day. If the writing is good with good characters--that's all I require--I don't particularly pay attention to categories or genres. Not always at least.

Indeed. I watch/read anything from dark and bloody shounen (eg Berserk) to light and fluffy shoujo... so long as the characters are interesting, the artwork is passable and there's a plot to keep things interesting for the long term.

My favourite shoujo manga right now is Skip Beat! The title is a bit odd and it's not been scanlated very well/extensively unfortunately... but it's awesome. Or at least, I find it so, and it just gets better and better - the latest chapters are amazing. "Hell hath no fury like a woman scorned" might be a better title

[Nightbat®]

Next you know Anime (or anything) will exist solely out of genderless characters
that say nothing, do nothing and have no weaknesses because
"it might offend someone"

Rambo getting in touch wih his feminin side and a manicure
Scarlet giving a damn and kills everyone
dogs and cats living together - mass hysteria.
just because some are offended by makebelieve stereotypes in a makebelieve world

[uzumaki]

Originally Posted by Aristophanes

Lol you're seriously warped babe
1. How much gundam have you watched? Victory and Wing have strong, intellectual women who are not 'out of proportion.
2. What the hells wrong with having tits? Not everyone is flat chested oi.
Let's adress your idiotic responses in order.
3. I noticed that you forgot to mention that the protaginist in NGE is a weak whimp who is actually helped by these women who you so scornfully refer to.
4. Which reminds ever notice that most of the men in these horrible horrible harems are also weak and indecisive....not exactly in line with normal Macho stereotypes?
5. btw about shoujo, which charactres are giggly? In which anime? Because most of the Shoujo I've read or seen is nothing like what your talking about..
6.OMFG leave cowboy bebop out of it! Faye is what we call a Femme fatale, a fallen woman. Her character isn't merely in the anime to serve as fan service, it's serve's the theme. Aka...Jazzy, film noir and Westerns. But I 'spose you haven't seen much of either since they are so "unrealistic
7. And come on KGNE is seinen,ecchhi or whatever. So what?!?!? The girls are meant to blush...lady lighten up.
8. The origins of the show WTF you expect BIG ROBOTS AND LETHAL SEXY ANDROIDS to be a realistic portrayal of society Maybe you should stick to books....

Btw you mentioned you'd come from a 'liberal' part of the states, well for a while I couldn't understand why there was such a big right wing reaction after the turn of the century....now I see why. Your pinkos went to far, nothing is ever good enough for you guys, the other day I was on a American forum which had a thread proclaiming that Lord of the rings was a conspiracy against blacks..yea right......

You've really been quite rude from the start. I suggest you improve you attitude online and learn to write and argue better.

1. I acknowledged that the Gundum characters are fine.
2. Please read my posts carefully and try to understand what my point is. Your comment is irrelevent. I doubt any mature person woh watches anime in here has a problem with breasts. However, there are 'certain' shows that concentrate on it ad nauseum. Of course, as you say, those are echii, and I've never said anything about them.
3. Once again, it seems as if you barely skimed through my post.
4. What...? I never commented on the character on the center of the harem....
5. If you haven't noticed the kind of characters in shojo I was talking about, then you're more lost than I had imagined.
6. Once again, your arrogant assumptions blind you. The point of this thread was to comment on the lack of realistic female characters in anime. There are many fanstastical, interesting, and entertaining females in anime as well as manga, but there are very few realistic ones. I am NOT against bad babes or femme fatals or whatever. I just think that they, in combination with overly timid, and innocent girls, out number any female characters that a female fan may be able to relate to in areas other than romantic feelings and rage.

7. I mentioned KGNE because someone listed it as an example that might be an exception to my original point. And I am lightened up, you seem to be the one who's losing their cool.
8. Dude, calm down, stop losing your head like that. We're only discussing and critisising stuff here, not determining your life sentence. Take it easy. This isn't about anybody's pride. Sheesh. The only part of your eighth point that I understand is about sticking to books, which is what I do most of the time, but books don't have visuals, so I like to watch anime. Then I see all the crap out there and go back to books.

And tug: what? Being liberal means I can't question a country's culture, even if it includes unfair treatment of anybody? And for the umpteenth time,
I never, ever said "All female in shounen stories are stupid and dumb?"...I made about a thousand disclaimers that I'd rather not be generalizing, because there are 5 gazillions animes and mangas I haven't seen!

Look, all I'm saying is that the MAJORITY (majority is > 60%) of female characters in anime are worthless. If you deny that...erghhh....

Whatever.

[DaFool]

Originally Posted by uzumaki

Look, all I'm saying is that the MAJORITY (majority is > 60%) of female characters in anime are worthless. If you deny that...erghhh....

Whatever.

Most of it is actually a result of replication. I.e. take a stock glasses-girl, or onii-chan girl, add some aftermarket components such as bunny ears, nekomimi, or a helium vocal tank, and produce en masse like there's no tomorrow. Anime girls are like Pokemon: you just gotta catch em all!

Otakus are hobbyists...and hardcore hobbyists actually prefer the company of objects than that of real people. Thus there is little need for anime girls to be akin to real people...in fact, the more they resemble persocoms or battleships or jetfighters or mecha or spirit warriors or 40,000-year-old planetary destroyers, then the more fans they will have. These totally out-of-proportion characters put a stupid grin on my face. And I then thank God in Heaven for giving talent to anime creators.

[Aristophanes]

Originally Posted by Dragnfly@Gamefaqs

After reading all that, uzumaki, I've gotta be honest. Maybe japanese media just isn't right for you. I know it doesn't appeal to everybody and you're just gonna hurt your own feelings if you stick with it, I think. to the Suggestions thread and don't just discard people's opinions. For the most part people on this board seem to be relatively intelligent and you may get a series that is to your liking.

I agree, find a new hobby.
But I think you'll find problems and inequalities to 'question', seriously though are we watching the same programmes? Because it seems to me like your viewing the world or at least anime through bitchy tinted glasses.

[Onibaba]

You've shed insight on something many people have probobly tended to ignore, but now that you've made your point...what do you plan on achieving by having this discussion?

If you're asking why, the easiest answer is that it sells;

Originally Posted by ultataro

It's the market. They make what sells and since the bulk of the market for anime is young males, thats what you'll find the bulk of targeted. A couple recent exceptions that has garnered some success so looks like it'll continue is the josei (young women) shows of Honey & Clover and Paradise Kiss.

It seems like the discussions (arguments) in this thread are going no where

On a side note, I strongly recommend you watch Peach Girl. It follows the (female) protagonist and the problems she's faced with. Although often depending on those around her, she tries her best to act strong