AnimeSuki Forums

SagaraSouske · 2011-02-13, 10:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Haak

To be honest, I agree with Triple R. I think if this episode has proven anything is that Kyuube is doing bad things but doesn't think they're bad because he's subscribed to a completely different moral system. Kinda like Saya from Saya no Uta. Technically she wasn't really evil, either.

Possibly Blue and Orange Morality.

Even if he is acting on a different set of morality, his actions, from human perspective is evil.

BaKaBaKaOtaKu · 2011-02-13, 10:55

how gen ends this is to nobody's guess. here is to hoping he'd somehow pull a bittersweet end rather than a bad one. my body isn't yet ready to see mah homura suffer. T_T

Anyhow, just a thought:

what if the main reason why homura knew about madoka and what were to happen is because she dreamt of them a long time ago. she waited for that day when they'd meet finally and stop the apocalypse with her. L0L. a silly thought,yes. XD *shot*

Haak · 2011-02-13, 10:58

The consquences of his actions, I have no problem defining them as evil (from what I know, anyway). But when we talk about judging his actions, I feel it neccessary to take into account not only the consequences but also the intentions behind them. In my opinion, an evil action would be an action with both evil intentions and bad consquences. Since I don't consider his intentions to be evil, then I don't consider his actions completely evil. And when you judge someone's intentions, it's important to be neutral and not judge it based on your own set of morals. Atleast that's what I believe.

Quote:

Originally Posted by orion

But those girls are already dead.

I don't think it's easy to say that. On one hand i can see how people would consider them 'dead', but at the same time I can see how others would view them as 'alive'. This interesting situation, I think, blurs the boundary between life and death.

felix · 2011-02-13, 11:44

@Haak, officially most phylosophical schools of thought consider evil as attributed to the person, complete garbage. Evil can only be attributed to an action. We may have the term "evil person" engraved in our vocabulary; but it doesn't really make sense if you think about it. The definition of evil also depends on what moral standard you adhere to (universalism¹, absolutism², relativism³, nihilism⁴). As I see this debate is useless, you just have the relativism camp fighting the absolutist camp, with a touch of universalism and nihilism to spice things up. You may as well argue over apples and oranges while you're at it.
__________________
¹ if something's right for me, it's right for you; if it's wrong for you, it's wrong for me
² there is at least one principle in everything that ought never to be violated
³ it's moral to me, because I believe it is
⁴ killing someone, for whatever reason, is neither inherently right nor inherently wrong

Credits to Wikipedia.

Kaijo · 2011-02-13, 12:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by garbage

i find it strange why some people will vehemently defend the position the QB is not manipulative, because for me he definitely is by his actions.

a couple of points. simplified, let's try not to put in any unneeded baggage like homura as "also" manipulative in this discussion. homura being manipulative or not is separate and irrelevant to the topic of QB being manipulative.

Quote:

Originally Posted by applejuice

^ Yep, manipulation is not about lying. It's about showing the half-truth or part-truth. For instance, if mahou shoujo knew what happens to their soul when they make contract (aka turning into the zombie), the amount of recruit will be significantly less.

Wanted to respond to a few points.

You're more than welcome to think he is being manipulative, but it hasn't been shown. Not telling you a minor detail != lying or telling a half-truth. If you honestly believe this, then everyone is lying to you, or telling you half-truths. Why? Because not everyone tells you everything. Sometimes they feel that you don't really need to know the details for one reason or another.

And you're okay with this.

So my position is more of: Apply your standard evenly, otherwise you come off looking like you have a double standard. Your viewpoint is fine, as long as you apply it equally. I don't agree with it due to lack of evidence, but I can see how you might think so.

My position is that I don't think anyone is being manipulative. They are all taking advantage of situations.

So, let's recap. You think the following is evidence of manipulation:

Telling me something I want to know
Telling me upfront and honestly what you want
Not telling me a minor detail that you feel is unimportant

That's a rather broad set of criteria, which is why I feel it is useless to try and apply this term. I'd prefer to save the term for someone who actually does lie and actually does control events to get a particular outcome.

Quote:

Originally Posted by totoum

Kaijo have you read or watched deathnote?It has great exemples of all kinds of manipulation,including being completely honest and telling someone what he wants to know,there's even manipulation without telling someone anything at all!

Haven't watched much of it(not my type of show), but I know how it goes. A lot of what happens there is deliberate intentions to mislead, which is a large part of manipulation.

Question: Would you like someone to accuse you of manipulation, when you honestly thought you were being honest and straightforward?

Whether you like it or not, the word "manipulation" carries certain connotations. The use of it is designed to elicit certain emotions, and thus one has to be really careful about word choice. "Denier" is just a word, yet it stirs up certain emotions and feelings in you.

Haak · 2011-02-13, 12:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by felix

@Haak, officially most phylosophical schools of thought consider evil as attributed to the person, complete garbage. Evil can only be attributed to an action. We may have the term "evil person" engraved in our vocabulary; but it doesn't really make sense if you think about it. The definition of evil also depends on what moral standard you adhere to (universalism¹, absolutism², relativism³, nihilism⁴). As I see this debate is useless, you just have the relativism camp fighting the absolutist camp, with a touch of universalism and nihilism to spice things up. You may as well argue over apples and oranges while you're at it.

God damn it, that was exactly what I planned on saying.

KaneDragon · 2011-02-13, 12:30

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaijo

My position is that I don't think anyone is being manipulative. They are all taking advantage of situations.

Taking advantage of situations... to manipulate people.

broken270 · 2011-02-13, 12:34

Spoiler:

So, Homura was able to stop the fight. As she said, she is an ally of the calm and an enemy to those who fight for no reason. On that note, she would clearly be against Kyoko, Sayaka, or even Madoka in the event that she believes that something that is done by them is wrong in her eyes. So, it is not written on paper on which particular person she perfers, but which person she would side given the events that happened. I do not think you can place a good/bad label on her.

Kyubei still wants Madoka to be a magical girl. Again, quite a sneaky way to do it, using her friend as a catalyst to make this happen. Fortunately, Sayaka was calm enough to make the decision on not to make her a part of this mess. Still, she is very hot-headed about her morals and what she believes is right, which make sense. Given her personality, she is not going to be friendly with Kyoko or Homura anytime soon. Quite an odd way to dispose a grief seed:to just place it in a slot on his back. I wonder if there is any meaning to that. Exactly what did he do to that seed. Store it? Decompose it? Not much information on his part yet again.

Homura attempts to make some sort of agreement with Kyoko about Sayaka and the rest of the city. I guess giving it to her may as well be the right decision in Homura's mind, but there is a catch. What is that weird word that Homura said? Walpurgisnacht? Walpurgis Night? Is this some sort of major event for magic girls that have to deal with fighting each other? The day that a huge swarm of witches arrive and they have to kill as many as possible to see who wins? Or is it the first few minutes of episode one where the boss witch arrives and destroys the whole city? Not much information is given, but it should be important for magical girls if Homura and Kyoko know about this.

From the looks of things, Sayaka is too hot-headed to listen to anyone else, or gain help from anyone else whom she believes is right. I think Madoka's mom is right about telling white lies in order to point out your feelings. If using words to persuade them does not work, one has to be clever enough to think o the right way to prove one's point. Make it that what she is doin is wrong by getting yourself in trouble. Then again, oing things too reckles may be a bad thing for Madoka's part overall.

Sayaka wishes to give something to Kamijo, but he is bust with the violin. Instead of ringing the doorbell, she decides to leave until Kyoko shows up. Here, Kyoko pushes her buttons once again, telling her that a good way to make him hers is to break his joints and make him rely on her. Not the nicest way to get someone's attention, but it does work. Sayaka is obviously infuriated by this, and the fight is on. Homura and Madoka managed to meet up with both of them just in time before something drastic happens. Keeping her mother's words, Madoka decides to throw Sayaka's Soul Gem away, and it gets caught in a truck. From this point on is where we get more information on how this whole magical girl thing works. What kyubei just did to Sayaka was taking out her soul and placing it inside a compartment with a shape. It would make sense, seeing his actions and what he did. Throwing away her Soul Gem means throwing away the energy that a magical girl needs to run in, thus considered "dead" if there is no life in it. The cellphone explanation also makes sense: if you are too far away form the source, you cannot get any service no matter where you are. Kyubei also explains that by putting a girl's soul into another compartment, no matter how badly beat up the girls are, as long as they have their Soul Gem unharmed, they could easily heal their wounds by use of magic. What he is saying makes sense, but morality kicks in and the girls started to be angry at him. Same with Homura, you cannot label Kyubei as good or bad. All he is doing is telling them more information about their contract and his views on what he is doing. From a human's perspective, this is "evil" because it is not something that they want to happen to them; however, Kyubei does not understand their reasoning for not wanting their souls safe in a gem, which makes sense.

Slick_rick · 2011-02-13, 12:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaijo

Wanted to respond to a few points.

You're more than welcome to think he is being manipulative, but it hasn't been shown. Not telling you a minor detail != lying or telling a half-truth. If you honestly believe this, then everyone is lying to you, or telling you half-truths. Why? Because not everyone tells you everything. Sometimes they feel that you don't really need to know the details for one reason or another.

And you're okay with this.

So my position is more of: Apply your standard evenly, otherwise you come off looking like you have a double standard. Your viewpoint is fine, as long as you apply it equally. I don't agree with it due to lack of evidence, but I can see how you might think so.

My position is that I don't think anyone is being manipulative. They are all taking advantage of situations.

So, let's recap. You think the following is evidence of manipulation:

Telling me something I want to know
Telling me upfront and honestly what you want
Not telling me a minor detail that you feel is unimportant

That's a rather broad set of criteria, which is why I feel it is useless to try and apply this term. I'd prefer to save the term for someone who actually does lie and actually does control events to get a particular outcome.

That we are even arguing this makes me more than a little sick to my stomach. That QB is manipulative is as clear day. He doesn't leave out "minor" details unless you're so blinded that you think having your soul ripped out of your body is a minor thing. QB also only tells people as much as he wants them to know if he told them everything we wouldn't have them so shocked in this episode now would we? He's never been upfront or honest that's you making stuff up that is completely contrary to want how the show portrays him. All he has done so far is towards the end of making these girls turning in Magical girls to fight witches. Unless you willfully disregard all his actions you can only come to this conclusion. You might not believe he's evil for manipulating these girl, I would not agree in the least, but that he does it shouldn't even be a question at this point.

Quote:

Question: Would you like someone to accuse you of manipulation, when you honestly thought you were being honest and straightforward?

Whether you like it or not, the word "manipulation" carries certain connotations. The use of it is designed to elicit certain emotions, and thus one has to be really careful about word choice. "Denier" is just a word, yet it stirs up certain emotions and feelings in you.

If he was being honest and straightforward then the accusation wouldn't be fair but it is fairly apt for QB. Also I think people understand the connotations of both calling him evil and manipulative. No need to try to lecture people on the power of words. We all understand what we are saying and why we said it.

At least I find it better that you've completely dropped the act of being in the "middle" but quite honestly I have to say you're even more entrenched in your position now that is almost sad.

Kaijo · 2011-02-13, 12:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Slick_rick

That we are even arguing this makes me more than a little sick to my stomach. That QB is manipulative is as clear day.

And you want to call me entrenched? It's been my experience than when someone says "It's as clear as day" they are almost always seeing something that isn't there. "Why doesn't everyone else realize that 9/11 was a conspiracy? It's as clear as day!"

Quote:

At least I find it better that you've completely dropped the act of being in the "middle" but quite honestly I have to say you're even more entrenched in your position now that is almost sad.

Then you have a sad understanding of middle. Because a person in the middle says, "I don't know until we have more proof. My opinion is only formed based off the evidence we have now, which is subject to change."

See, your opinion is made up, and won't change. Ever. People in that position tend to dislike those that keep in an open mind, so there is a real drive to push a middle person into a position.

Regardless of what you may think, there is currently no evidence of Kyube being manipulative. When such time as evidence presents itself, I will cheerfully align myself to your side.

That's more than you can say, which I think is particularly galling to you. That's sad, but hey, that's how emotional humans usually act.

totoum · 2011-02-13, 13:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaijo

Haven't watched much of it(not my type of show), but I know how it goes. A lot of what happens there is deliberate intentions to mislead, which is a large part of manipulation.

A lot,yes,but not everything and definatly not some of the shows most memorable moments.But since you havn't seen it there's no use talking about it.Would be off topic anyway

Quote:

Question: Would you like someone to accuse you of manipulation, when you honestly thought you were being honest and straightforward?

Someone can be honest and quite straightforward and still be manipulative.

I was at a supermarket one day and there was this kid (like 5-6 years old),he wanted a box of cookies,the dad didn't want to buy them,so what did he do?He cried and made as much noise as possible,pretty soon the whole store was aware he wanted to have that box of cookies,the dad didn't want the extra attention that was being given to him because of his son so he said "fine,you can have those cookies".He was happy and stopped crying right away

That kid was completely honest and couldn't have been more straightforward about what he wanted,doesn't change the fact that I think he knew from experience that if he cried he'd get what he wants.So yes I'd say he manipulated his father,and yes odds are if you asked my dad he'd tell you I might have done things like this when I was younger

Slick_rick · 2011-02-13, 13:06

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaijo

And you want to call me entrenched? It's been my experience than when someone says "It's as clear as day" they are almost always seeing something that isn't there. "Why doesn't everyone else realize that 9/11 was a conspiracy? It's as clear as day!"

I'm not ignoring evidence to further my point. The evidence just shows that QB is being manipulative. I'm entrenched only in the facts.

Quote:

Then you have a sad understanding of middle. Because a person in the middle says, "I don't know until we have more proof. My opinion is only formed based off the evidence we have now, which is subject to change."

See, your opinion is made up, and won't change. Ever. People in that position tend to dislike those that keep in an open mind, so there is a real drive to push a middle person into a position.

Regardless of what you may think, there is currently no evidence of Kyube being manipulative. When such time as evidence presents itself, I will cheerfully align myself to your side.

That's more than you can say, which I think is particularly galling to you. That's sad, but hey, that's how emotional humans usually act.

But, it is quite clear that your words and actions don't match. The more QB is shown to hold back information, and very important information at that, to further his own goals the more you dig up the excuses to paint him as some sort of victim of people picking on him without any evidence.

I could tell you water is wet and you'd tell me I have no certain way of telling that and that touch doesn't mean anything. You say how water doesn't understand what wet is so I can't call it that and water would probably be offended if I called it that so I shouldn't.

I'm at the point where I find QB quite evil not just manipulative as I did in the past. I'll freely admit that and its probably not going to change unless some reason that I can't fathom at this point comes forth. I'll freely admit this. You can play as having an open mind but I can't see how anyone who reads your post can agree with that. You clearly twist the things shown and outright ignore facts to hold onto your viewpoint.

I give up on you. That's all the can say. While I can somewhat see the argument of him not being considered evil, on a purely philosophical basis, I can't see how someone can hold he's not being manipulative on any basis with a straight face.

Seihai · 2011-02-13, 13:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaijo

And you want to call me entrenched? It's been my experience than when someone says "It's as clear as day" they are almost always seeing something that isn't there. "Why doesn't everyone else realize that 9/11 was a conspiracy? It's as clear as day!"

To be fair, all future speculations and theories are things that >are not< (yet) there, proven or unproven. I'm sure people don't mean what they say as straight facts. Because facts =! opinion. As you said yourself, we don't know. That Kyubei is manipulative, for instance. But it's just wordplay if you pick it apart when someone claims it. I'd say it's a gut feeling which might have some truth to it. And the possible hints form said truth which possibly result in facts. I mean, more people than less people find Kyubei suspicious. That is surely of no coincidence. Even if you can defend him with more arguments than you can find arguments that he is evil or amoral or whatever.

Quote:

See, your opinion is made up, and won't change. Ever. People in that position tend to dislike those that keep in an open mind, so there is a real drive to push a middle person into a position.

You can be opinionated and at the same time still have an open mind. I believe in certain theories more than others, but I can still consider the ones I don't believe. I don't defend those that I don't believe in as much, though. Why would I? Do you believe in the theories you defend? For example when you considered that Homura was evil. What I tend to dislike is when people discuss things they don't even believe themselves. Makes me scratch my head.

garbage · 2011-02-13, 13:32

lol & sigh

there can be no fruitful intellectual discussion of a topic if the person your discussing with deliberately misunderstands and twists your words. to what end? to suit their ego? to seem smart and great? honestly i don't know.
I try my best to be respectful of others and especially their opinions. I post on this forum to enjoy a good discussion and to have fun doing so. but i don't want to waste my time.

I hold all my points in my previous post still stand

Quote:

Originally Posted by garbage

i find it...

if anyone would like to reply and discuss my points intellectually then I'll be more than happy to reply and listen to your side.

I do know i'm not perfect and I also make mistakes
But if it's just a waste of time then sorry i'd rather just do something else.

MORE POWER to fun & fruitful discussions

Squarecrow · 2011-02-13, 14:06

We've only seen Kyubey withholding one piece of information so far. Something that, in all likelihood, has affected almost no magical girls and we only see it happen to Sayaka as a plot device, not a measure of frequency.

Does it really matter if your soul is in your body or if it's on something you wear all the time? It makes them stronger and possibly immortal (need more info on how much regeneration can occur). And magical girls aren't dead like some people have stated. They eat, they sleep, they tire... they do the same things that they did before they became a magical girl.

felix · 2011-02-13, 14:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lord Crow

And magical girls aren't dead like some people have stated. They eat, they sleep, they tire...

Reference required.

FlavorOfLife · 2011-02-13, 14:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lord Crow

We've only seen Kyubey withholding one piece of information so far. Something that, in all likelihood, has affected almost no magical girls and we only see it happen to Sayaka as a plot device, not a measure of frequency.

Does it really matter if your soul is in your body or if it's on something you wear all the time? It makes them stronger and possibly immortal (need more info on how much regeneration can occur). And magical girls aren't dead like some people have stated. They eat, they sleep, they tire... they do the same things that they did before they became a magical girl.

Yes it does for the following reasons
i) Your soul gem is an open target for anyone who knows the fact. Homura's shunpo would be invincible vs any MS
ii) The darkening of the soul gem takes on new meaning
iii) If you're immortal. you're fighting forever. Not until you grow old and die, but until the inevitable day you get killed and probably trapped in the witch dimension.
iv) Depending on where you wear your soulgem, seperating it from you would be as easy as chopping off a limb.
v) Once beyond the 100 meters range you're likely comatose and helpless. This is usale for any normal human who knows the secret and wants to control a few MS
vi) Any religion that links to souls would not be viable to you since your case is exception so no idea what happens to you when you die. Permanent destruction?
vii) Unless the soulgem is super strong (unlike Sayaka's blades which shatter alot), your soulgem becomes a big problem if you're slammed onto the ground or suffer a major impact

Kaijo · 2011-02-13, 14:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by totoum

Someone can be honest and quite straightforward and still be manipulative.

That kid was completely honest and couldn't have been more straightforward about what he wanted,doesn't change the fact that I think he knew from experience that if he cried he'd get what he wants.So yes I'd say he manipulated his father,and yes odds are if you asked my dad he'd tell you I might have done things like this when I was younger

The kid was engaging in extra behaviors to get what he wanted, so yes, that would start to qualify. But Kyube hasn't. He merely repeats what he wants, without engaging in theatrics, so the analogy doesn't quite fit.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Slick_rick

I'm not ignoring evidence to further my point. The evidence just shows that QB is being manipulative. I'm entrenched only in the facts.

Everyone would like to think they were entrenched in the facts. So what happens when two contrary sides claim that? Are they both correct? The ability to know, lies in the ability of the side to willingly accept that their view could be incorrect, or at least admit to being able to re-evaluate things based on new evidence.

And hey, just what the world needs; more people insisting they are right! I'm sure we'll establish world peace when all those very nice people out there continue to insist they are right and everyone else is wrong!

Quote:

But, it is quite clear that your words and actions don't match. The more QB is shown to hold back information, and very important information at that, to further his own goals the more you dig up the excuses to paint him as some sort of victim of people picking on him without any evidence.

But I don't need to go any further than this, because it is quite clear you haven't really read any of my posts. I don't think Kyube is a victim at all. Time and time again I've said that he has engaged in somewhat questionable activities. As a person of logic, I understand where he's coming from, but part of his flaw is that he needs to be better understanding of human emotion.

And hell, I've even stated several plausible scenarios that would change my mind on various things. My stance is, and always has been, "speculation is nice, but we're still missing pieces of the puzzle so we can't say for sure." And at this time, there is little evidence of real manipulation.

I'm willing to be proven wrong when new evidence presents itself; are you? Odds are, you aren't.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vanish

To be fair, all future speculations and theories are things that >are not< (yet) there, proven or unproven. I'm sure people don't mean what they say as straight facts. Because facts =! opinion. As you said yourself, we don't know. That Kyubei is manipulative, for instance.

Yep. But tell that to someone like rick.

I'm sure he'd say his opinion *was* fact. People like you and me know we are only holding an opinion. I just have a strong desire to make sure opinion isn't confused for fact.

Quote:

You can be opinionated and at the same time still have an open mind.

Indeed. I hold a great many opinions on this show, many of which are contradictory; but that's because I see it from multiple angles and thus know it could go multiple ways.

I guess I just find it sad that some don't have an open mind. Doesn't speak to much to our species, but then again, it is human.

Quote:

I believe in certain theories more than others, but I can still consider the ones I don't believe. I don't defend those that I don't believe in as much, though. Why would I? Do you believe in the theories you defend? For example when you considered that Homura was evil. What I tend to dislike is when people discuss things they don't even believe themselves. Makes me scratch my head.

There are several reasons people do so. As an intellectual exercise for one, seeing where the theory goes when held up. As a matter of understanding, to figure out exactly where someone is coming from. You probably haven't been in a debate club, but people there are frequently asked to argue things they personally don't believe. Lawyers do this day in and day out, represent opinions they may not personally share.

Also, devil's advocate. Deliberately taking a contrary position to the norm in order to force new thoughts into the arena. The same old theory can get rather dull, so I like to spice things up and encourage debate. Makes people feel more comfortable, too, when someone else takes up their theory and honestly discusses it.

Lastly, it's just par for the course given how little we know about this series. Until it ends, we just won't know. It's only via hindsight that we will be able to look back and say,"Yeah, okay, it was foreshadowed there, but that other hint was just something I saw but wasn't really there, so I was wrong about that."

So, that's why I take contrary positions and argue theories that aren't part of the mainstream. Then again, I'm more logical than emotional, heh.

Quote:

Originally Posted by felix

Reference required.

*sigh*

Homura and Madoka were recently sitting in a cafe, and she had a drink in front of her. Kyoko has been seen eating quite frequently. Sayaka was tiring against Kyoko.

And I think the girls would have figured out something was amiss by now, if they suddenly found out that they were no longer hungry nor got sleepy or tired. Kyoko was surprised by the revelation, and Sayaka didn't notice anything out of the ordinary.

So, as Kyube said, it didn't really make a difference where their soul was; they are still alive, and still able to do all that they normally could, and experience everything as a normal human. The only change is that their soul is in a gem, and their body is more durable.

The only possible difference that they may not have noticed, was if they no longer aged. But given that all biological functions seem to be intact, it's likely they still do.

***CrowKenobi*** · 2011-02-13, 14:36

I'm shutting this thread down for a while since there doesn't seem to be ANY discussion of the episode in question, just circular arguments about who is right and wrong about whether Kyuube is evil, a manipulator, or a lying rodent. All of these topics are off-topic here, move them to the appropriate threads.

I'll reopen this thread later in the day.

Thank you.

EDIT: Thread open!

orion · 2011-02-13, 23:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lord Crow

We've only seen Kyubey withholding one piece of information so far. Something that, in all likelihood, has affected almost no magical girls and we only see it happen to Sayaka as a plot device, not a measure of frequency.

Does it really matter if your soul is in your body or if it's on something you wear all the time? It makes them stronger and possibly immortal (need more info on how much regeneration can occur). And magical girls aren't dead like some people have stated. They eat, they sleep, they tire... they do the same things that they did before they became a magical girl.

But are they doing it out of habit or do they really get hungry and tired? The Homura and Madoka thing was just being social.

Sayaka going to sleep at night again is habit and what is expected out of a teen.

And due to the prob high "mortality rate", we haven't really seen any adult MGs. You'd think that some 20yos would still be able to survive. So we don't know if they can age or give birth.

And I wouldn't be surprised if Kyubbee withheld the lack of aging part too.

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2011-02-13, 11:44	Link #464
felix sleepyhead Author Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: event horizon	@Haak, officially most phylosophical schools of thought consider evil as attributed to the person, complete garbage. Evil can only be attributed to an action. We may have the term "evil person" engraved in our vocabulary; but it doesn't really make sense if you think about it. The definition of evil also depends on what moral standard you adhere to (universalism¹, absolutism², relativism³, nihilism⁴). As I see this debate is useless, you just have the relativism camp fighting the absolutist camp, with a touch of universalism and nihilism to spice things up. You may as well argue over apples and oranges while you're at it. __________________ ¹ if something's right for me, it's right for you; if it's wrong for you, it's wrong for me ² there is at least one principle in everything that ought never to be violated ³ it's moral to me, because I believe it is ⁴ killing someone, for whatever reason, is neither inherently right nor inherently wrong Credits to Wikipedia. __________________

2011-02-13, 14:06	Link #475
Squarecrow Supreme Ruler of Crowatia Join Date: Jun 2009 Age: 33	We've only seen Kyubey withholding one piece of information so far. Something that, in all likelihood, has affected almost no magical girls and we only see it happen to Sayaka as a plot device, not a measure of frequency. Does it really matter if your soul is in your body or if it's on something you wear all the time? It makes them stronger and possibly immortal (need more info on how much regeneration can occur). And magical girls aren't dead like some people have stated. They eat, they sleep, they tire... they do the same things that they did before they became a magical girl. __________________ http://www.anime-planet.com/users/LordCrow

2011-02-13, 14:36	Link #479
*CrowKenobi* One PUNCH! Administrator Join Date: Dec 2005	I'm shutting this thread down for a while since there doesn't seem to be ANY discussion of the episode in question, just circular arguments about who is right and wrong about whether Kyuube is evil, a manipulator, or a lying rodent. All of these topics are off-topic here, move them to the appropriate threads. I'll reopen this thread later in the day. Thank you. EDIT: Thread open! Last edited by CrowKenobi; 2011-02-13 at 19:03.

2011-02-13, 10:55	Link #462
BaKaBaKaOtaKu Stupidity is Bliss. Join Date: Oct 2010 Location: In Hancock's Heart	how gen ends this is to nobody's guess. here is to hoping he'd somehow pull a bittersweet end rather than a bad one. my body isn't yet ready to see mah homura suffer. T_T Anyhow, just a thought: what if the main reason why homura knew about madoka and what were to happen is because she dreamt of them a long time ago. she waited for that day when they'd meet finally and stop the apocalypse with her. L0L. a silly thought,yes. XD shot

2011-02-13, 12:34	Link #468
broken270 Defying gravity Join Date: Jul 2010	Spoiler: So, Homura was able to stop the fight. As she said, she is an ally of the calm and an enemy to those who fight for no reason. On that note, she would clearly be against Kyoko, Sayaka, or even Madoka in the event that she believes that something that is done by them is wrong in her eyes. So, it is not written on paper on which particular person she perfers, but which person she would side given the events that happened. I do not think you can place a good/bad label on her. Kyubei still wants Madoka to be a magical girl. Again, quite a sneaky way to do it, using her friend as a catalyst to make this happen. Fortunately, Sayaka was calm enough to make the decision on not to make her a part of this mess. Still, she is very hot-headed about her morals and what she believes is right, which make sense. Given her personality, she is not going to be friendly with Kyoko or Homura anytime soon. Quite an odd way to dispose a grief seed:to just place it in a slot on his back. I wonder if there is any meaning to that. Exactly what did he do to that seed. Store it? Decompose it? Not much information on his part yet again. Homura attempts to make some sort of agreement with Kyoko about Sayaka and the rest of the city. I guess giving it to her may as well be the right decision in Homura's mind, but there is a catch. What is that weird word that Homura said? Walpurgisnacht? Walpurgis Night? Is this some sort of major event for magic girls that have to deal with fighting each other? The day that a huge swarm of witches arrive and they have to kill as many as possible to see who wins? Or is it the first few minutes of episode one where the boss witch arrives and destroys the whole city? Not much information is given, but it should be important for magical girls if Homura and Kyoko know about this. From the looks of things, Sayaka is too hot-headed to listen to anyone else, or gain help from anyone else whom she believes is right. I think Madoka's mom is right about telling white lies in order to point out your feelings. If using words to persuade them does not work, one has to be clever enough to think o the right way to prove one's point. Make it that what she is doin is wrong by getting yourself in trouble. Then again, oing things too reckles may be a bad thing for Madoka's part overall. Sayaka wishes to give something to Kamijo, but he is bust with the violin. Instead of ringing the doorbell, she decides to leave until Kyoko shows up. Here, Kyoko pushes her buttons once again, telling her that a good way to make him hers is to break his joints and make him rely on her. Not the nicest way to get someone's attention, but it does work. Sayaka is obviously infuriated by this, and the fight is on. Homura and Madoka managed to meet up with both of them just in time before something drastic happens. Keeping her mother's words, Madoka decides to throw Sayaka's Soul Gem away, and it gets caught in a truck. From this point on is where we get more information on how this whole magical girl thing works. What kyubei just did to Sayaka was taking out her soul and placing it inside a compartment with a shape. It would make sense, seeing his actions and what he did. Throwing away her Soul Gem means throwing away the energy that a magical girl needs to run in, thus considered "dead" if there is no life in it. The cellphone explanation also makes sense: if you are too far away form the source, you cannot get any service no matter where you are. Kyubei also explains that by putting a girl's soul into another compartment, no matter how badly beat up the girls are, as long as they have their Soul Gem unharmed, they could easily heal their wounds by use of magic. What he is saying makes sense, but morality kicks in and the girls started to be angry at him. Same with Homura, you cannot label Kyubei as good or bad. All he is doing is telling them more information about their contract and his views on what he is doing. From a human's perspective, this is "evil" because it is not something that they want to happen to them; however, Kyubei does not understand their reasoning for not wanting their souls safe in a gem, which makes sense.