Suisei no Gargantia - Episode 9 Discussion / Poll

[taofd]

Originally Posted by Irenesharda

I don't know if it's just the physical appearance for me. I'm more adverse to the fact that they gave up their humanity ( a much more complex subject) to become these supposed "advanced" beings. And one can go on about all the bad things humans do all they want, but in the end, I would still never give it up to become not only a cephlopod, but one that has become a being that only exists on animal instinct.

What defines "being human"? I would still consider the Hideaze human, unless their value system has changed entirely (not enough information at this point). For example, if I transplanted you as an entity (preserving your thoughts, feelings, value system, mind, etc) into the shape of a dog, would you still consider yourself human and expect the same rights as an individual? What about a cow, or an ant, etc?

People in this thread seem awfully stuck up on the physical appearance of the Hideaze. I'd point out all their logical fallacies, but there's no winning on the internet and not worth the effort. Quite honestly, it's frightening how shallow and intolerant some of the individuals in this thread are...

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

Their consent doesn't matter.

... Actually, their consent DOES matter. If they choose to sell their organs, what gives you the right to stop them? As long as no coercive force is being used, are you going to tell them that they cannot do what they want with their own body? With children the complexity of the decision increases due to their inability to understand the full consequences of their actions (that's what parents are for), but the fundamentals remain the same.

[Cloudedmind]

Originally Posted by jeroz

so when did the Hideazue start swimming backwards?

wouldn't it be better if the evolved turned out like this though?

Spoiler for pic:

or even Ika musume

I'd hit that. I always did have a soft spot for Ursala in the Little Mermaid. xD


But on a serious note, between the Hideauze and the GA, I'd choose neither. I actually think the Hideauze are quite pretty but in a I like to look at them, but not be them way. And we don't know much else about how live. Everything at this point is pretty much conjecture. And although the GA has tech it doesn't appear to be a fun place to spend time based on what we've heard from Ledo and Chamber. Sure there's the possibility of Avalon, but 16 years of service and trying not to get turned into Hideaze food, yeah...no thanks. I'd choose the Gargantia, it's not perfect but at least I'd get to live my life more or less of my own choosing not stuck in some perpetual war.

[rocket]

I gotta say tho' all you squid haters have been trolled SO hard.

Ever since the very first episode.

We know we should hate the enemy right? Why?

Because they're Hideyouze.

So what? What's that mean?

Sorry, didn't you hear me? We must hate them because they're hideous.

...


It's pretty darn clear than Gen wants you to think about the nature of Humanity. Is it based of what we look like or how we act?

First Ledo has a hard time recognizing the Pirates as human, because they're willing to threaten other humans.

We then realize how in-human the GA is - child soldiers who have no families and brutal eugenics regimes. Avalon exists for breeding, but there's no love, no companionship, only a brief respite in war.

Now we meet the squids, who look like something out of a nightmares, but only fight when threatened. If they'd been aliens who were only responding to human aggression, then everyone would be using Close Encounters ethics. But because they're actually just ugly humans...

[shakes head sadly]

[Avrorrange]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

False. That totally depends on culture, not wealth. Jainism is certainly not associated with the latter.
And questions about the morality of eating animals existed since Hellenistic times.

People even resolve into cannibalism if they starve,which is a common taboo in almost all societies. It all depends on the situation, and livelihood plays a large role.

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

So you agree that killing Hideauze is evil?
Now what remains is whether it is really necessary or not.

Killing Hideauze is a necessary evil, just as killing enemy soldiers in most wars was.

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

That's a lot of hasty conclusions. First you need to consider that Kugel is a grunt and he doesn't know what the government does.
We have evidence that the government actively censors information about the the origin of the Hideauze. They wouldn't do that if they had nothing to cover about them.

Now the situation is that the GA decided to launch an all out attack against the Hideauze. The government knows that they aren't just mindless bugs, the soldiers don't, however they believe they will win this battle.

Then they launch the attack and it fails. What would you do if you were in the shoes of the heads of the GA now? You now know that you can't win, but you only learned it about 1 minute ago. What can you do apart ordering a retreat and hoping the Hideauze will eventually accept peace conditions?

The retreat order? We saw that, and it wouldn't make much sense if there really was no future. I mean you can retreat to fight another day, but why retreating if there is no tomorrow?

As for the possible peace discussions, we never had the chance to see whether they happened or not. So how can you be so sure that they never happened?
I mean perhaps they didn't, but you are using a mere speculation as an argument.

Besides it's hinted that the Hideauze don't even know where the humans are. So for the GA there is a whole option of simply leave the Hideauze alone and perhaps travel to some remote place of the universe. Now they have the technology to do that with ease.

The Hideauze also has the option of travelling to some more remote place in the universe.

You may also think that the GA are the aggressors since they launched an all out attack, but that's also just a speculation.

While what the commander said may just be government propaganda, it's quite clear that the war's desperate enough that they have to maximize efficiency in GA by euthanizing the 'inefficient', possibly clone soldiers, and basically convert their society into a communist one by disestablishing the principle of private ownership. What ever was the case, this isn't something a 'winning' entity would do.

"Losing the war" most probably means they would lose a large part of the population in the aftermath since the Hideauze would most likely be able to attack the civilian/support structure of the GA unimpeded since so many of their troops were dead.This could lead to the potential collapse of GA and a major loss of human lives, but doesn't necessarily mean humans would become extinct immediately. It's pointless to waste lives in a futile struggle once the battle has been lost. The more soldiers managed to get out alive, the better they are able to prevent a complete collapse and extinction.

[Vocah]

Originally Posted by darthfanta

The Hideauze also has the option of travelling to some more remote place in the universe.

You may also think that the GA are the aggressors since they launched an all out attack, but that's also just a speculation.

Well, maybe the Hideauze are in some "more remote place in the universe", afterall it is the GA that uses it's Wormhole technology to get to the Hideauzes territory

[Jan-Poo]

Originally Posted by taofd

... Actually, their consent DOES matter. If they choose to sell their organs, what gives you the right to stop them? As long as no coercive force is being used, are you going to tell them that they cannot do what they want with their own body?

Yeah, in what kind of planet you live in?
Of course it's very hard to prevent someone from doing something to himself, but if that requires assistance, then, hell, this world is full of laws that put restrictions.

See for example euthanasia. You are not free to get killed, no matter if you give your consent.
Or simply think about drugs. You are not free to buy whatever drug you want.
You want to sell your organs? Most countries forbid that.
You want to cut your hand? You'll have to do it by yourself, no medic will be ever authorized to do so (unless it is necessary to save your life).

So, you want to become a squid? It's the same as above. Whether you give consent or not the ones who do that to you will be considered criminals.

Originally Posted by darthfanta

While what the commander said may just be government propaganda, it's quite clear that the war's desperate enough that they have to maximize efficiency in GA by euthanizing the 'inefficient', possibly clone soldiers, and basically convert their society into a communist one by disestablishing the principle of private ownership. What ever was the case, this isn't something a 'winning' entity would do.

That's because you assume from start that the GA are just poor people that have no choice to do that. The Nazi started killing their own disabled people when they were still sure of their victory.

Originally Posted by darthfanta

"Losing the war" most probably means they would lose a large part of the population in the aftermath since the Hideauze would most likely be able to attack the civilian/support structure of the GA unimpeded since so many of their troops were dead.This could lead to the potential collapse of GA and a major loss of human lives, but doesn't necessarily mean humans would become extinct immediately. It's pointless to waste lives in a futile struggle once the battle has been lost. The more soldiers managed to get out alive, the better they are able to prevent a complete collapse and extinction.

Again I don't know how you can conclude that. Kugel sacrificed himself to prevent the Hideauze from following them. This would hint that they normally can't go where the humans are or that it would take a lot of time.

In the end you are just speculating that peace is impossible, you have absolutely nothing that proves it, not even a rational argument.
For all we know the Hideauze might be simply defending themselves and retaliating.

I mean it could go both ways you know. You seem to only think about the possibility that the aggressors are the Hideauze, but the opposite could be true. Of course do you even think that anyone would disagree with you if it was certain that the Hideauze want to exterminate the humans and that the GA are simply defending?

The real question here is whether the Hideauze should be given the right to exist, supposing they are willing to co-exist, or if they should be exterminated simply because they are an abomination or because it would be more advantageous for humans to have no competition.

Nobody is questioning that the Hideauze should be fought back if they attack.

[Vocah]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

Yeah, in what kind of planet you live in?
Of course it's very hard to prevent someone from doing something to himself, but if that requires assistance, then, hell, this world is full of laws that put restrictions.

See for example euthanasia. You are not free to get killed, no matter if you give your consent.
Or simply think about drugs. You are not free to buy whatever drug you want.
You want to sell your organs? Most countries forbid that.
You want to cut your hand? You'll have to do it by yourself, no medic will be ever authorized to do so (unless it is necessary to save your life).

So, you want to become a squid? It's the same as above. Whether you give consent or not the ones who do that to you will be considered criminals.

Laws can change, just saying.
In case of your examples, I find it pretty stupid in the case of euthanasia. If someone wants to die, wouldn't it be way better to go to a hospital and be done with than jumping from a bridge or something like that and maybe impairing(is this the right word for it?) on others?
The organ-part I view similar to the euthanasia one.
The drug thingy would also be better in a "controlled" environment rather than from some dealer at the corner

[ReddyRedWolf]

Originally Posted by Vocah

Well, maybe the Hideauze are in some "more remote place in the universe", afterall it is the GA that uses it's Wormhole technology to get to the Hideauzes territory

They can't just leave each other alone.

The Hideauze need the Galactic Alliance and possibly Drifters for FTL as their technology allows wormholes. The Hideuauze are Luddites for abandoning technology and not being to create it themselves.

The Galactic Alliance's main purpose now is the elimination of Hideauze as they keep expanding where they are expanding.

Note in episode 1 it was priority the wormhole is closed behind them.

[Vocah]

The Hideauze don't need wormholes, that's why they did become Evolver. Sure it was convient for them in the footage shown, but that's all.

Just think about it. If the Hideauze can't use FTL all the GA have to do to avoid them is making a big jump and destroying the wormhole afterwards (just like it was planned in the past) to get rid of any chance of meeting them for a few thousand years.
So either the Hideauze have a form of FTL or the GA themselves keep in contact with them

[Jan-Poo]

Originally Posted by Vocah

Laws can change, just saying.
In case of your examples, I find it pretty stupid in the case of euthanasia. If someone wants to die, wouldn't it be way better to go to a hospital and be done with than jumping from a bridge or something like that and maybe impairing(is this the right word for it?) on others?
The organ-part I view similar to the euthanasia one.
The drug thingy would also be better in a "controlled" environment rather than from some dealer at the corner

You can find a lot of laws stupid, but you are still supposed to respect them. You can protest and ask them to be changed, but if they don't. Well you can either adapt or be prepared for retaliation.

The Evolvers simply decided that the laws were "outdated", and they ignored them without reaching an agreement to change them.

Originally Posted by ReddyRedWolf

Note in episode 1 it was priority the wormhole is closed behind them.

If it was true that the Hideauze

1) don't have wormholes
2) need wormholes

then the best way to deal with them would be to simply jump some thousand light years away from them.
According to you, they'd have no way to follow.

[chaos_animagic]

watching the female humansquid...

she looked so nice too... too bad Chamber is a machine programed by the "government" to destroy any opposing regardless of human pilot.

I feel sad now.

I had wanted that Female Humansquid to survive and find a way to communicate (since Chamber can learn original human language, it should be able to learn other species languages)

So... I wonder what Ledo's going to do now.

He's probably gonna go crazy knowing he just killed off 2000+ "previously humans" and 1 that actually looks like a human.


Especially after the fact that he was told by Amy not to kill any other humans. (if they still count as humans, as discussed in this thread)

[monir]

Originally Posted by ReddyRedWolf

They can't just leave each other alone.

The Hideauze need the Galactic Alliance and possibly Drifters for FTL as their technology allows wormholes. The Hideuauze are Luddites for abandoning technology and not being to create it themselves.

The Galactic Alliance's main purpose now is the elimination of Hideauze as they keep expanding where they are expanding.

Note in episode 1 it was priority the wormhole is closed behind them.

To me it's not yet clear if the Hideause are any way inferior to the GA. For example we still don't know how Ledo and Chamber came to be in earth. It's just too much of a coincidence that Ledo came to discover the lost planet. Like one poster pointed out, this is just another enactment of human nature (via mutual destruction) at it's worst.

[whitecloud]

I think the reason GA can't leave hideauze alone because they are pretty much like Zerg...leave them alone for a while they will breed, fast enough and adapt to environment easily enough to become a threat later. Do you see the brood mother of the erarth hideauze, just one of them has at least 100 egg, imagine more of of them, how fast will they occupy the solar system, how fast will they expand outside it

[Key Board]

are we sure the Hideauze don't have warpgates?

they managed to produce a space station after all

if we are referring to episode 1, I think the issue is that space is very vast and the Hideauze can't just guess where the human fleet is.

but going through the warpgate would allow them to pinpoint the location and quickly send reinforcements

[frodonk]

woah, I didn't expect that at all.

anyway, that last hideous chamber killed resembled one of the original inhabitants of old earth as shown in the video, the one that high fived one of the divers. looks like chamber just killed something or someone very old.

[scr]

Once, I said I'm with the kill-Hideauze camp because they are just animals.

Guess what? I changed my mind.

I'm now with the kill-Hideauze camp because they are xenos bastards who will corrupt humanity if nothing is done. Anyone who want to defend the Hideauze can go become squids.

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by Guardian Enzo

And we have no way of knowing whether they only exist on animal instinct. It's just being assumed based on how they look.

We have no way of knowing if the "space Hideauze" only exist on animal instinct. Its certainly possible that they're sentient and sapient and maintain some degree of human-level (or even above) intelligence.

But what we've seen of the "Earth Hideauze" is pretty suggestive, in my view. They've made a nest out of an ancient ruin of human civilization. They don't appear to have built anything on their own. Their behavior is very much like a communal pack of animals that lack higher understanding. I think that they're probably harmless if you leave them and their territory alone, but I also don't get a human-level intelligence vibe from them. They make me think of hornets, and bears, and actual squids, and so on.

[monir]

Originally Posted by scr

Anyone who want to defend the Hideauze can go become squids.

And anyone who is picking side has already fallen victim to a trolling Urobuchi who is calling (terrible) humanity out at every opportunity he gets.

[scr]

Originally Posted by monir

And anyone who is picking side has already fallen victim to a trolling Urobuchi who is calling (terrible) humanity out at every opportunity he gets.

In this context, I'll take being called out by Urobuchi as a compliment.

[Triple_R]

It's perfectly fine to disagree with the Evolvers, but we shouldn't lose sight of the GA's flaws that we knew of long before this episode.


The GA has outlawed families, for crying out loud. They've stripped the word "co-existence" from the dictionary. The physically weak are simply disposed of. The soldier class (and possibly all humans) need to earn such basic rights as the right to eat, sleep, and procreate as they wish. That is a massive curtailing on human rights. We knew all of this before this episode even aired.

Imperialist fascists don't become good guys just because they happen to be warring with Lovecraftian horrors (if that's how you choose to view the Hideauze). They're still imperialist fascists, and should be recognized as such.