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Old 2014-10-03, 13:38   Link #5221
mirakura
Arturia X Tamamo is love~
 
 
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I never got why that was...
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Old 2014-10-03, 13:43   Link #5222
Rising Dragon
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By the third Grail War, no one was playing by the rules anymore.
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Old 2014-10-03, 13:54   Link #5223
cyberdemon
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Originally Posted by mirakura View Post
I never got why that was...
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Originally Posted by Rising Dragon View Post
By the third Grail War, no one was playing by the rules anymore.
In this case it is said that it was because of a unique sorcery trait of the Edelfelt family rather than about breaking the rules. So there are loop holes when it comes to the classes. Outright cheating was Einsberns summoning avenger.
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Old 2014-10-03, 14:25   Link #5224
Nayrael
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The third war had 2 saber class servants. Both were summoned by the Edelfelt family who had 2 masters.
Just what were the battle teams of that war
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Old 2014-10-03, 16:32   Link #5225
Jaden
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Yeah, you don't get to choose your servant...but in practice, the only other master who even took the chance of possibly summoning a Caster was Sakura, right? Though even then it's possible the Matous knew that Caster had already been summoned, because she was already going around devouring people's souls. I guess it was also possible for Caster to summon a fake Caster. Casterception?

Anyway, the point is that masters who know the rules well don't want to summon Caster because other servants have magic resistance, and the masters are magi themselves so summoning another magus isn't usually a great complement to their abilities.
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Old 2014-10-03, 17:10   Link #5226
mirakura
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Medea summons Tamamo with Saber at her side!!! *nosebleed*
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Old 2014-10-03, 17:19   Link #5227
Cherry_Lover
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Yes but, if a sword is the catalyst, it could be a Saber or possibly Rider. The same can be said if a lance or bow is used as catalyst. Or even a saddle. So technically, yes, a master can choose their servant if they take the right steps
Not really. We have two canonical Archers, neither of whom use a bow. Plus, a catalyst has to have a direct connection to a particular hero. Just using a bow you found in the shed isn't going to work.

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Originally Posted by cyberdemon View Post
The third war had 2 saber class servants. Both were summoned by the Edelfelt family who had 2 masters.
Actually, technically, they only had one Saber, it was just split between the two of them. There were still 6 other servants.
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Old 2014-10-03, 17:24   Link #5228
Rising Dragon
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Not really. We have two canonical Archers, neither of whom use a bow.
Wait, two? Who's the other one? The first is pretty obviously Gilgamesh.
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Old 2014-10-03, 17:38   Link #5229
mirakura
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Originally Posted by Cherry_Lover View Post
Not really. We have two canonical Archers, neither of whom use a bow. Plus, a catalyst has to have a direct connection to a particular hero. Just using a bow you found in the shed isn't going to work.



Actually, technically, they only had one Saber, it was just split between the two of them. There were still 6 other servants.
But if they used a bow as catalyst, they could summon Robin of LoxelyHood EMIYA uses a bow, Gil's GOB is his bow. Them two are just exceptions, Atalanta uses a bow~ It just depends. But if one were to use a bow as catalyst, they would almost certainly summon an Archer. If not, they would summon a servant who uses a bow as a primary weapon but is more know for their other skills (e.g Iskander who uses a sword yet has an RM and his horse[?])
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Old 2014-10-04, 10:03   Link #5230
Cherry_Lover
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Wait, two? Who's the other one? The first is pretty obviously Gilgamesh.
Archer....

I mean, he does use a bow sometimes, but his primary weapons are swords.
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Old 2014-10-04, 20:09   Link #5231
phishmeister68
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I didn't get much reading the VN done since last time. Got caught up in a lot of things.

1

Anyway, all the talk about this Ilya music/Sakura thing, is this from Fate/hollow ataraxia? Is there a full version english translated patch yet?

2

Strategies mean a lot, because I'm reading the VN right now. Two Servants having the same rank does not mean it's forever a stalemate. A B rank Noble Phantasm can beat another B rank Noble Phantasm, maybe even an A rank, you just need to find or create an opening. Maybe after a few fight, you know a bit more about your enemy thereafter.

Besides, it's not every time you get two Servants doing their same rank Noble Phantasm at the same time. Plus every Noble Phantasms are so different, how do you imagine the attacks just cancel each other?

Interesting to note that Saber did say that most of the time, fights between Servants comes down to a contest between their Noble Phantasms.

3

About Avalon healing Shirou. That just NO. About Shirou and his heart, Lancer pierced his heart. By the time Rin arrived, she noticed he's still alive. Then she saved him with her jewel. She probably didn't heal the curse, most probably replace with a new one.

So for sure it's Avalon that's keeping Shirou alive, but it's just prolonging it, not saving Shirou. Please note also this though I'm not sure, but I think Avalon has very little mana in it. They said something about it in the VN after Shirou and Saber escaped from Kotomine dungeon in day 12 or 13 maybe. It's been 8 years since last time I've read the VN.

Can't really say whether if Avalon can fully heal Shirou though, from this case.

4

Avalon was never used to heal Saber. So Saber's wound healed when Lancer died. I think Avalon only prolonging Shirou's life just enough time for Rin to save him. I think Avalon only truly works when in Saber's possession. Just from this info, you can't say for sure if Avalon can fully heal a wound inflicted by Gae Bolg.

5

After reading the CM posted here, I think if Avalon can defy True Magic, it can heal Gae Bolg's curse. Anyway, when Saber is face with Gae Bolg, if Avalon it's not activated in time, I think she gets hit. But even so, I think Saber can recover from a pierced heart fast enough to survive with Avalon’s help. But I think Tenchi is taking the meaning that Gae Bolg is a 1 hit ko, a for sure kill, an instant kill, too literally. Yes, you'll die, but not in every case. Yes, you'll die, but not instantly every case, I think. Shirou didn't die instantly.

6

I don't think the Noble Phantasm Gae Bolg turn into thorns when it pierces its target. I've read some info on his legend where it does say so, but it also didn't mention about Noble Phantasm because it's just about his legend, like a scholar article on myths and legends, not anything to do with Nasuverse.

7

Gae Bolg is not thrown. It's a thrust.

If Avalon is activated before Gae Bolg, the attack just stop, it doesn't linger in limbo waiting for Saber to come out from the Boundary Field. Or the lance leaving the Lancer's hand searching for Saber's heart. No. Just No.

8

Gea Bolg is not a projectile.

9

The Noble Phantasm Gae Bolg is not instantaneous. Just very quick.

10

I think Servant True Assassins had no hearts? Hearts given by the grail? Not sure how he dodged Gae Bolg. Forgot HF.

11

On the issue of Gae Bolg vs Fragarach comparing to Gae Bolg vs Avalon. Gae Bolg, the curse itself will bend around space to reach the heart. But the fight against Bazette, they in the same world, same space, same plane of existence. You can call the Bound Field, in the land of fairies a space as well, but it's not exactly in the same space, in the same sense in that the fight against Bazette vs a hypothetical fight against Saber with her Boundary Field on is not the same situation with not the same parameters.

12

Avalon, as a Boundary Field, offering the greatest defense can be use an infinite amount of times. I'm so confident on this, I won't even say, 'I think'.

Last edited by phishmeister68; 2014-10-04 at 22:33.
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Old 2014-10-04, 20:30   Link #5232
mirakura
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Quote:
Originally Posted by phishmeister68 View Post
I didn't get much reading the VN done since last time. Got caught up in a lot of things.

1

Anyway, all the talk about this Ilya music/Sakura thing, is this from Fate/hollow ataraxia? Is there a full version english translated patch yet?

2

Strategies mean a lot, because I'm reading the VN right now. Two Servants having the same rank does not mean it's forever a stalemate. A B rank Noble Phantasm can beat another B rank Noble Phantasm, maybe even an A rank, you just need to find or create an opening. Maybe after a few fight, you know a bit more about your enemy thereafter.

Besides, it's not every time you get two Servants doing their same rank Noble Phantasm at the same time. Plus every Noble Phantasms are so different, how do you imagine the attacks just cancel each other?

Interesting to note that Saber did say that most of the time, fights between Servants comes down to a contest between their Noble Phantasms.

3

About Avalon healing Shirou. That just NO. About Shirou and his heart, Lancer pierced his heart. By the time Rin arrived, she noticed he's still alive. Then she saved him with her jewel. She probably didn't heal the curse, most probably replace with a new one.

So for sure it's Avalon that's keeping Shirou alive, but it's just prolonging it, not saving Shirou. Please note also this though I'm not sure, but I think Avalon has very little mana in it. They said something about it in the VN after Shirou and Saber escaped from Kotomine dungeon in day 12 or 13 maybe. It's been 8 years since last time I've read the VN.

Can't really say whether if Avalon can fully heal Shirou though, from this case.

4

Avalon was never used to heal Saber. So Saber's wound healed when Lancer died. I think Avalon only prolonging Shirou's life just enough time for Rin to save him. I think Avalon only truly works when in Saber's possession. Just from this info, you can't say for sure if Avalon can fully heal a wound inflicted by Gae Bolg.

5

After reading the CM posted here, I think if Avalon can defy True Magic, it can heal Gae Bolg's curse. Anyway, when Saber is face with Gae Bolg, if Avalon it's not activated in time, I think she gets hit. But even so, I think Saber can recover from a pierced heart fast enough to survive with Avalon’s help. But I think Tenchi is taking the meaning that Gae Bolg is a 1 hit ko, a for sure kill, an instant kill, too literally. Yes, you'll die, but not in every case. Yes, you'll die, but not instantly every case, I think. Shirou didn't die instantly.

6

I don't think the Noble Phantasm Gae Bolg turn into thorns when it pierces its target. I've read some info on his legend where it does say so, but it also didn't mention about Noble Phantasm because it's just about his legend, like a scholar article on myths and legends, not anything to do with Nasuverse.

7

Gae Bolg is not thrown. It's a thrust.

If Avalon is activated before Gae Bolg, the attack just stop, it doesn't linger in limbo waiting for Saber to come out from the Boundary Field. Or the lance leaving the Lancer's hand searching for Saber's heart. No. Just No.

8

Gea Bolg is not a projectile.

9

The Noble Phantasm Gae Bolg is not instantaneous. Just very quick.

10

I think Servant True Assassins had no hearts? Hearts given by the grail? Not sure how he dodged Gae Bolg. Forgot HF.

11

On the issue of Gae Bolg vs Fragarach comparing to Gae Bolg vs Avalon. Gae Bolg, the curse itself will bend around space to reach the heart. But the fight against Bazette, they in the same world, same space, same plane of existence. You can call the Bound Field, in the land of fairies a space as well, but it's not exactly in the same space, in the same sense in that the fight against Bazette vs a hypothetical fight against Saber with her Boundary Field on is the same situation with the same parameters.

12

Avalon, as a Boundary Field, offering the greatest defense can be use an infinite amount of times. I'm so confident on this, I won't even say, 'I think'.
Well, Saber is a King, so of course she uses strategies. All you've said I already know. But Avalon took Gae Bolg's curse, hence the reason Shirou wasn't dead yet. It took away the curse, and slowly begun to heal the heart before Rin came. If Rin didn't come, Shirou would still live, but healing would take till the next day to finish. Doesn't matter where Saber is. If she's in that plane, Avalon works. Even if it's not her body, her mana alone feeds it...
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Old 2014-10-04, 20:42   Link #5233
phishmeister68
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I don't think Avalon can save Shirou in that instance. I'm not sure how Avalon works exactly in Shirou's body and how Saber affects it. But I'm 100% sure that Avalon only has a little mana left in it, and sure, I'll also say it breaks the curse, and starts healing, but just a little bit, just to prolong his life maybe a few seconds, minutes, but not to an extent where it'll save his life. I've was just reading that part 2 days ago, coz I wanna know how Lancer fight. It's written like for sure he's dying. There's no way.
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Old 2014-10-04, 21:09   Link #5234
Ragna92
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Originally Posted by phishmeister68 View Post
I don't think Avalon can save Shirou in that instance. I'm not sure how Avalon works exactly in Shirou's body and how Saber affects it. But I'm 100% sure that Avalon only has a little mana left in it, and sure, I'll also say it breaks the curse, and starts healing, but just a little bit, just to prolong his life maybe a few seconds, minutes, but not to an extent where it'll save his life. I've was just reading that part 2 days ago, coz I wanna know how Lancer fight. It's written like for sure he's dying. There's no way.
I agree. The way I see it the only reason Shirou lived was because of Rin healing him+Avalon.
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Old 2014-10-04, 21:18   Link #5235
mirakura
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Originally Posted by phishmeister68 View Post
I don't think Avalon can save Shirou in that instance. I'm not sure how Avalon works exactly in Shirou's body and how Saber affects it. But I'm 100% sure that Avalon only has a little mana left in it, and sure, I'll also say it breaks the curse, and starts healing, but just a little bit, just to prolong his life maybe a few seconds, minutes, but not to an extent where it'll save his life. I've was just reading that part 2 days ago, coz I wanna know how Lancer fight. It's written like for sure he's dying. There's no way.
Yeah, I think overhype made me type wrong -_-' Avalon started receiving it's prana since Shirou being a master was confirmed. Before that, it had nil prana in it~
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Old 2014-10-05, 01:51   Link #5236
Lorhand
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Originally Posted by phishmeister68 View Post
I didn't get much reading the VN done since last time. Got caught up in a lot of things.

1

Anyway, all the talk about this Ilya music/Sakura thing, is this from Fate/hollow ataraxia? Is there a full version english translated patch yet?
There is a 100% beta patch, though they still fix some stuff.

Quote:
2

Strategies mean a lot, because I'm reading the VN right now. Two Servants having the same rank does not mean it's forever a stalemate. A B rank Noble Phantasm can beat another B rank Noble Phantasm, maybe even an A rank, you just need to find or create an opening. Maybe after a few fight, you know a bit more about your enemy thereafter.

Besides, it's not every time you get two Servants doing their same rank Noble Phantasm at the same time. Plus every Noble Phantasms are so different, how do you imagine the attacks just cancel each other?

Interesting to note that Saber did say that most of the time, fights between Servants comes down to a contest between their Noble Phantasms.
It's more about the concept of the attack. Gae Bolg is super effective and deadly, yet it's B rank, which means it won't do shit to Berserker's God Hand for instance, as God Hand just rejects the attack, unless Lancer powers up Gae Bolg with his rune magic.


Quote:
4

Avalon was never used to heal Saber. So Saber's wound healed when Lancer died. I think Avalon only prolonging Shirou's life just enough time for Rin to save him. I think Avalon only truly works when in Saber's possession. Just from this info, you can't say for sure if Avalon can fully heal a wound inflicted by Gae Bolg.
Actually, Saber sent mana to Avalon in Fate and said that not even Gae Bolg's curse can affect Shirou now, after he was pierced again by Lancer in the church. The curse is the only real damaging thing, Avalon can heal the normal wound easily.

Quote:
6

I don't think the Noble Phantasm Gae Bolg turn into thorns when it pierces its target. I've read some info on his legend where it does say so, but it also didn't mention about Noble Phantasm because it's just about his legend, like a scholar article on myths and legends, not anything to do with Nasuverse.
It does, see hollow ataraxia.

Quote:
7

Gae Bolg is not thrown. It's a thrust.

8

Gea Bolg is not a projectile.
Gae Bolg has two versions though. The thrown version makes it a projectile.

Quote:
10

I think Servant True Assassins had no hearts? Hearts given by the grail? Not sure how he dodged Gae Bolg. Forgot HF.
I don't remember Lancer trying to use Gae Bolg on TA. He never intended to kill any other Servant. He was a scout, after all.

Quote:
12

Avalon, as a Boundary Field, offering the greatest defense can be use an infinite amount of times. I'm so confident on this, I won't even say, 'I think'.
I'm pretty sure it costs mana. Then again, Saber's mana pool is extraordinary and she has her own mana generator inside her, so she'll likely never run out of it. If this was a "game", I would add a cooldown because it's simply too overpowered.

This whole Avalon and Gae Bolg talk tires me.
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Old 2014-10-05, 02:42   Link #5237
mirakura
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Well, Avalon = Most powerful sheath in 2worlds, aka 6th magic/1st magic of the faeries

Our King is so great, the Faeries gave her the ultimate sword, and the ultimate sheath
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Old 2014-10-05, 06:29   Link #5238
Nayrael
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Does anyone know which CG I am missing here? And how to get it?
Spoiler:
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Old 2014-10-05, 06:35   Link #5239
Theminimanx
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You're missing the one where Kotomine is standing in front of the Greater Grail. There's a bug with the translation patch that won't let you get it. It's fixed in the Realta Nua re-release, which you should be playing anyway (it has more CG's and the Vita OP's and soundtrack.)
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Old 2014-10-05, 11:18   Link #5240
phishmeister68
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Wait, can the Noble Phantasm Gae Bolg pierce Berserker's heart?

And it's all just hypothetical if Saber has Avalon or not. This all stems from what counter there is to Gae Bolg.

I have quick read back at Lancer's first 2 fights with Archer and Saber. When he's ready, he just do it.

I still don't think Archer can jump back in time. Against Saber, Lancer really did his special move, and he jump towards Saber first, then he pierces. You just cant get near him to begin with if that's the case. I don't think the 10 meter matters.

I'm not the type to conform to whatever Nasu said. I'm having a quick read here, I don't believe that 10 meters would help, because Lancer jumps towards you first, then Gae Bolg you. And Lancer's the fastest hero.
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