Let's Re-Watch Macross Frontier (TV) Together!

[DeX-kun]

Originally Posted by magnuskn

Ah, you know how Zentraedi are. "She is dead, let's move one" At least Klan gave an anguished cry at her death.

This is true

Wait, did Ranka give an anguished cry for Gilliam's death!?

Although one thing I'd like to say is that Gilliam's death had more of an impact on Alto because he was directly saved by Gilliam. I guess you could say that Alto felt guilty for indirectly causing his death.

Likewise, Alto's heroics had more of an impact on Ranka because she was directly saved by Alto. Naturally Ranka did see Gilliam die but I'm pretty sure she saw a lot of people die as well and that would put most in a state of shock. Casualties of war is pretty hard to witness after all.

[magnuskn]

Originally Posted by DeX-kun

This is true

Wait, did Ranka give an anguished cry for Gilliam's death!?

Although one thing I'd like to say is that Gilliam's death had more of an impact on Alto because he was directly saved by Gilliam. I guess you could say that Alto felt guilty for indirectly causing his death.

Likewise, Alto's heroics had more of an impact on Ranka because she was directly saved by Alto. Naturally Ranka did see Gilliam die but I'm pretty sure she saw a lot of people die as well and that would put most in a state of shock. Casualties of war is pretty hard to witness after all.

Well, as of what we saw in the series, she didn't see anyone else die. And we got absolutely no reaction from her during Gilliams death.

Which fuels my hypothesis that she is a total psycho and was secretly laughing inside. Just kidding.

And, may I say that movie Gilliam was freaking blind? TV series Gilliam at least had the excuse that he was distracted by Alto when the giant Vajra snook up on him.

[DeX-kun]

Originally Posted by magnuskn

And, may I say that movie Gilliam was freaking blind? TV series Gilliam at least had the excuse that he was distracted by Alto when the giant Vajra snook up on him.

This is true as well.

Like the loud warning alarm in his cockpit wasn't enough to let him know that a huge bug was sneaking up on him

[Yot-chan]

Originally Posted by Lancel

She knows he works for SMS, she just thinks it's a desk job. I mean he's wearing his SMS jacket in that scene, and I believe she also knows where Ozma works.

Yes, and she beseeched Ozma to use all his desk-job research ability to find out who Alto was. If he sat her down and said, "Let me tell you about Gilliam," as Magnus is suggesting, I think he'd have to be awfully cautious not to give away too much...and it would ave to be SHOWN, or else the audience would be wondering about it.

But no matter who artfully they did the scene(s), it still doesn't move the story of Frontier forward at all, which at this point is really the most important thing.

[magnuskn]

Originally Posted by Yot-chan

Yes, and she beseeched Ozma to use all his desk-job research ability to find out who Alto was. If he sat her down and said, "Let me tell you about Gilliam," as Magnus is suggesting, I think he'd have to be awfully cautious not to give away too much...and it would ave to be SHOWN, or else the audience would be wondering about it.

But no matter who artfully they did the scene(s), it still doesn't move the story of Frontier forward at all, which at this point is really the most important thing.

Since the series was still establishing the characters personality at that point, it would have helped make Ranka seem empathetic, which I think would have been important, since in contrast to her Alto was shown as being aware that someone just died for him.

Also, the lack of reaction by Ranka does help to feed into the general perception of her as lacking empathy for others. Of course that only happens when looking back at the series in detail, at the moment the episode screened I was kinda distracted by all the pretty Valkyries flying around and, uh, Sheryls hope and dreams.

But it does leave one to wonder exactly how intentional that lack of empathy from Ranka was, from the side of the creators. When we get so early signs of it, it really does begin to constitute a pattern which doesn't seem all that coincidental or accidental anymore.

[Yot-chan]

Originally Posted by magnuskn

Since the series was still establishing the characters personality at that point, it would have helped make Ranka seem empathetic, which I think would have been important, since in contrast to her Alto was shown as being aware that someone just died for him.

Also, the lack of reaction by Ranka does help to feed into the general perception of her as lacking empathy for others. Of course that only happens when looking back at the series in detail, at the moment the episode screened I was kinda distracted by all the pretty Valkyries flying around and, uh, Sheryls hope and dreams.

But it does leave one to wonder exactly how intentional that lack of empathy from Ranka was, from the side of the creators. When we get so early signs of it, it really does begin to constitute a pattern which doesn't seem all that coincidental or accidental anymore.

I'll grant you that Ranka is immature, and purposefully so. But I'd argue that she DOES have empathy, or at least wants to cheer everybody up, in that "Hey, guys, let's stop arguing over who saw whose boobs and just have some tuna buns! ...oops" kinda way.

To me, it seems that she's clearly MEANT to be charmingly sweet and naive. Whether that "works" for you or not is a different question. Clearly, for most people here, it doesn't. For me, I always have a soft spot for the "cute" characters, and for the underdogs.

[magnuskn]

Eh, I'm just saying that this further feeds into Crusaders thesis of Ranka being a deconstruction of moe.

Now, grantedly, the movie changing her so much points into the direction that it was a simple error by the writing staff ( or they simply changed their mind, since people just complained about Ranka and didn't get that she was meant to be so hapless ^^ ), but there's always the "It's already a movie made by the people from the series" hypothesis.

And now we return you to the world where funny speculations don't count much against real facts.

[wisteria233]

Originally Posted by Yot-chan

I'll grant you that Ranka is immature, and purposefully so. But I'd argue that she DOES have empathy, or at least wants to cheer everybody up, in that "Hey, guys, let's stop arguing over who saw whose boobs and just have some tuna buns! ...oops" kinda way.

To me, it seems that she's clearly MEANT to be charmingly sweet and naive. Whether that "works" for you or not is a different question. Clearly, for most people here, it doesn't. For me, I always have a soft spot for the "cute" characters, and for the underdogs.

I think the real heart of the problem and the difference between episode 3 and later scenes was the severity of the situation they were in. Also unlike with Alto(who she had a crush on) and Sheryl(who she idolized), Ranka didn't know Gilliam, nor care about him (though it seems as though Alto did and despite his sacrifice) so that's part of the problem.

Then again movie Ranka doesn't see Gilliam die, but when she did see people die she reacted.

It also begs the question when is it not a good time for a character to be moe? There are times when it works and there are times where it doesn't.

[Irisiel]

I might be remembering wrong, but didn't Ranka at some point have friendly feelings towards Michael, yet when he's killed in front of her, she acts pretty much the same way as with Gilliam's death? That is to say, it might as well not have happened.

[magnuskn]

Originally Posted by wisteria233

It also begs the question when is it not a good time for a character to be moe? There are times when it works and there are times where it doesn't.

It really is an amusing thought for Ranka to just go "KIRA!" when Gilliam gets juiced.

Originally Posted by Irisiel

I might be remembering wrong, but didn't Ranka at some point have friendly feelings towards Michael, yet when he's killed in front of her, she acts pretty much the same way as with Gilliam's death? That is to say, it might as well not have happened.

Nah, she did have a shocked reaction to him getting skewered. If we want to do a comparison between Gilliam and someone, it'd have to be Rankas reaction to Nanase getting hit by a blast during the attack.

[Irisiel]

Originally Posted by magnuskn

Nah, she did have a shocked reaction to him getting skewered. If we want to do a comparison between Gilliam and someone, it'd have to be Rankas reaction to Nanase getting hit by a blast during the attack.

Hey, did she ever learn that Nanase was in a coma before taking off to Vajra-planet? I mean, if not, the last time she saw Nanase was her unconscious body in Sheryl's arms in the middle of an inferno and swarm of war bugs.

Anyway, the follow up could be considered a comparison; she doesn't react at all to Gilliam having been there, even when prompted by Alto. With Michael's death, she believes that Alto would want to save Ai-kun and bring him to Vajra-planet.

It's like... she both as and doesn't have an amnesia episode that erases her ability to consider other's positions (Alto, in both cases, feel strongly about Gilliam and Michael's deaths, yet she's oblivious to this).

But I admit that I liked Ranka during the beginning of the series, all the way up to Fastest Delivery. So at this point in the series I was still rooting for her, even if I was annoyed by the excessive moe. I thought she would drop the moe later in the series, considering the space war. Moe and war just don't go together very well unless every character is moe.

[DeX-kun]

Originally Posted by magnuskn

Nah, she did have a shocked reaction to him getting skewered. If we want to do a comparison between Gilliam and someone, it'd have to be Rankas reaction to Nanase getting hit by a blast during the attack.

It is true that she didn't react at all, although it was pretty awkward that her mind wasn't quite stable. I believe it has something to do with her dissociative amnesia, especially if we consider her flashback during the time Alto was holding Ranka's hand.

[Yot-chan]

Originally Posted by Irisiel

With Michael's death, she believes that Alto would want to save Ai-kun and bring him to Vajra-planet.

And again, if we take the novelization as "official" (which is still an open question, of course), he very nearly agrees. So she wasn't THAT far off-base in her thoughts about what he would or wouldn't do.

[magnuskn]

Originally Posted by Irisiel

Hey, did she ever learn that Nanase was in a coma before taking off to Vajra-planet? I mean, if not, the last time she saw Nanase was her unconscious body in Sheryl's arms in the middle of an inferno and swarm of war bugs.

She left a letter for her at Nanases bedside, so I'd count that as a "Yes, she knew".

Originally Posted by Irisiel

Anyway, the follow up could be considered a comparison; she doesn't react at all to Gilliam having been there, even when prompted by Alto. With Michael's death, she believes that Alto would want to save Ai-kun and bring him to Vajra-planet.

It's like... she both as and doesn't have an amnesia episode that erases her ability to consider other's positions (Alto, in both cases, feel strongly about Gilliam and Michael's deaths, yet she's oblivious to this).

Yeah, the whole dissociative amnesia angle wasn't really handled with much consistency or even direct allusion to it. It was left mostly to the viewers to interpret at which times it might have turned itself on.

Originally Posted by Yot-chan

And again, if we take the novelization as "official" (which is still an open question, of course), he very nearly agrees. So she wasn't THAT far off-base in her thoughts about what he would or wouldn't do.

Wait, he "nearly agrees" or has a mindflash of Klan ( meaning the treatment of the Zentraedi )? These are still pretty different things.

[Yot-chan]

Originally Posted by magnuskn

Wait, he "nearly agrees" or has a mindflash of Klan ( meaning the treatment of the Zentraedi )? These are still pretty different things.

Ranka says that Ai-kun hasn't done anything wrong. Alto is still about to shoot Ai-kun, has a mind-flash of Klan, and how the Zentradi were the sworn enemies of humanity, nearly exterminated the human race, blah-blah-blah, and yet, Klan was his friend.

(from p. 301) "And now, whether it was a human he'd just met or a Zentradi, he looked at them straight, without jumping to conclusions, without prejudice.

It was true, but still..."

And then he yells that the Vajra have turned the sky into a battlefield.

So yeah...I think she came pretty damn close to convincing him. Again, in the novel, which may or may not be relevant to the series.

[magnuskn]

Originally Posted by Yot-chan

Ranka says that Ai-kun hasn't done anything wrong. Alto is still about to shoot Ai-kun, has a mind-flash of Klan, and how the Zentradi were the sworn enemies of humanity, nearly exterminated the human race, blah-blah-blah, and yet, Klan was his friend.

(from p. 301) "And now, whether it was a human he'd just met or a Zentradi, he looked at them straight, without jumping to conclusions, without prejudice.

It was true, but still..."

And then he yells that the Vajra have turned the sky into a battlefield.

So yeah...I think she came pretty damn close to convincing him. Again, in the novel, which may or may not be relevant to the series.

Hm. she at least made him re-think his decision shortly. If that is convincing him is debatable.

[Yot-chan]

Originally Posted by magnuskn

Hm. she at least made him re-think his decision shortly. If that is convincing him is debatable.

I didn't say it was convincing him. I said it was CLOSE to convincing him.

[magnuskn]

Originally Posted by Yot-chan

I didn't say it was convincing him. I said it was CLOSE to convincing him.

Fair enough. Let's not quibble over details about which I only have half-information.

[Solecs]

In regards to Ranka reacting to Gilliam, is it possible that she didn't even see him get killed? I mean it happened away from Ranka's location somewhat and above her eye level, so I can't imagine she had a good view. Then Alto hops into the same valkyrie that was fighting, odds are she just figured it had been him piloting the entire time :-/.

Also, with all the focus on Alto "running away" what exactly are they (Michael for instance) expecting him to do? It doesn't feel like he's running away from his family. He's told his family how he feels about it and decided to pursue something he's interested in, I don't really see that as running away. He just wants to control his own life. Something most people want to do. Maybe I missed something along the way, but I don't remember often thinking that Alto stopped moving forward.

[wisteria233]

Originally Posted by Solecs

In regards to Ranka reacting to Gilliam, is it possible that she didn't even see him get killed? I mean it happened away from Ranka's location somewhat and above her eye level, so I can't imagine she had a good view. Then Alto hops into the same valkyrie that was fighting, odds are she just figured it had been him piloting the entire time :-/.

Also, with all the focus on Alto "running away" what exactly are they (Michael for instance) expecting him to do? It doesn't feel like he's running away from his family. He's told his family how he feels about it and decided to pursue something he's interested in, I don't really see that as running away. He just wants to control his own life. Something most people want to do. Maybe I missed something along the way, but I don't remember often thinking that Alto stopped moving forward.

Gilliam is pretty much right in front of her (the Vajra in front of her at that time as well), and even then Alto tells her about Gilliam shortly after wards. The movie fixed this by replacing Gilliam with Ozma and then having her react.

About Alto running away, Alto disliked remember and his dislike of Frontier itself could be seen as a dislike of his reality, or the inability to accept it for what it was. Because only wanting to fly can be seen as selfish to the people of Frontier, who don't really have that luxury.