Steins;Gate 0 - Episode 8 Discussion / Poll

[erneiz_hyde]

Originally Posted by Klashikari

If you really think SERN learned about the time machine from the future, then the world line becomes a dead end, because SERN in the present would know about complete time machine theory, leading to a complete different world line where the cause would no longer be the first d-mail but the message sent by SERN from the future. Ergo, deleting the first d-mail wouldn't prevent SERN to dominate the world, since they would have the full theory in their hands. In fact, in such scenario, they don't even need the FG members at all.

Yes, I think it's possible present SERN does know about the complete time machine theory. They don't need the FG to complete it, they only need them to not leak that theory to any other party. They already won the race. But it remains that all this is possible only because SERN found out about the D-Mail in Echelon sometime in the future. That discovery is the real ground zero. Without that first D-Mail then future SERN will not learn about the time machine and thus they can't send that information to the past.

Originally Posted by Klashikari

As I said, if the first d-mail is deleted, the future will immediately change because the real capture would never occur, SERN would never establish their dystopia, which affect Suzuha's actions, which in turn change the past. The fact the past was changed is the very reason why there is a world line shift to begin with.

And I'm saying this doesn't make sense. If SERN already saw the first D-Mail in the present, then even if it is deleted, there is nothing stopping them from capturing the FG lab member eventually.

[Klashikari]

Originally Posted by erneiz_hyde

Yes, I think it's possible present SERN does know about the complete time machine theory. They don't need the FG to complete it, they only need them to not leak that theory to any other party. They already won the race. But it remains that all this is possible only because SERN found out about the D-Mail in Echelon sometime in the future. That discovery is the real ground zero. Without that first D-Mail then future SERN will not learn about the time machine and thus they can't send that information to the past.

That's false, because if they already had the full theory, their dystopia is already secured. The very reason why SERN could have their time machine done was because of the FG members, which is proved by Suzuha who plainly stated Kurisu helped SERN with the time machine and was the "mother of the time machine".
SERN has the basic theory behind the time machine, but it is deemed as not functional because it gellifies the operators.

SERN canonically never completed the time machine theory on their own, but they still worked on it for a very long time as it was the raison d'être of SERN, which is demonstrated by Daru fishing information from the Z-program. This couldn't happen due to the future. Instead, it is an established fact for any world line. Otherwise, it would cause a severe contradiction with SG0.
They need Kurisu, Okarin and Daru to complete the machine. That's why Moeka doesn't kill them but capture them, whereas Mayuri wasn't needed at all because she isn't part of the time machine development. It pretty much confirms SERN needs them to complete their time machine, while killing anyone else who know about the machine but not useful to them. Therefore, if your assumption were to be true, then SERN would have tasked the rounders to kill all of them, not capturing them.

Furthermore, you are still with a major plot inconsistency:
Again, if SERN learn from the future about the time machine, erasing the first d-mail would not change anything because the present SERN can maintain the logic that the future SERN would have the time machine and give that info to their past self. It is self sustaining which is something SG tried to avoid at all cost.

And I'm saying this doesn't make sense. If SERN already saw the first D-Mail in the present, then even if it is deleted, there is nothing stopping them from capturing the FG lab member eventually.

I should have phrased myself more properly. I stated above they learned about the first d-mail later, not immediately. That's why the capture still occur soon after even when Moeka is stopped.
When I said future, I meant dates like 2025.

To me, the present is basically the period of Steins;Gate, meaning 2010.

In a nutshell, my perspective is like this:
*Assuming the raid performed by Moeka didn't occur*
1) The first dmail caught by ECHELON made SERN aware that a time machine has been properly build around 2010 (in the present in my perspective, but obviously after the "current events" of the alpha world line).
2) They order the rounders to capture the FG members
3) Kurisu is the main contributor to the time machine development
4) Years later, Okarin and Daru manage to flee from SERN, but Kurisu is still stuck with them.
5) SERN has established their Dystopia. Okarin forms the resistance
6) 2025: Okarin dies. Kurisu is (already?) dead.
7) At some point, Daru dies too, keaving behind the FG203
8) 2036. Suzuha goes back in time with the FG203

From there, the first D-mail being the trigger of all of this fits naturally, since it is the very reason why SERN could finish the time machine by securing the FG members.

[erneiz_hyde]

Originally Posted by Klashikari

Furthermore, you are still with a major plot inconsistency:
Again, if SERN learn from the future about the time machine, erasing the first d-mail would not change anything because the present SERN can maintain the logic that the future SERN would have the time machine and give that info to their past self. It is self sustaining which is something SG tried to avoid at all cost.

I really don't see how it is self sustaining. When future SERN informed present SERN about the time machine, the only reason present SERN would have info about the time machine is from future SERN, and thus if future SERN had no way to learn about it, then no matter what logic the present SERN maintain, they cannot arrive at the time machine theory by themselves. Even if present SERN already knows the theory (from the future), the fact that Kurisu is what made it possible still remains.

Originally Posted by Klashikari

They need Kurisu, Okarin and Daru to complete the machine. That's why Moeka doesn't kill them but capture them, whereas Mayuri wasn't needed at all because she isn't part of the time machine development. It pretty much confirms SERN needs them to complete their time machine, while killing anyone else who know about the machine but not useful to them. Therefore, if your assumption were to be true, then SERN would have tasked the rounders to kill all of them, not capturing them.

And I'd say they would if they could, but convergence means they cannot die, thus capture is the only option.

[Klashikari]

Originally Posted by erneiz_hyde

I really don't see how it is self sustaining. When future SERN informed present SERN about the time machine, the only reason present SERN would have info about the time machine is from future SERN, and thus if future SERN had no way to learn about it, then no matter what logic the present SERN maintain, they cannot arrive at the time machine theory by themselves. Even if present SERN already knows the theory, the fact that Kurisu is what made it possible still remains.

That's why I said it becomes a loop paradox.
If the present SERN learns about the time machine from the future SERN, this means that the present SERN CAN sustain this logic by creating the time machine and send an agent back to keep the consistency.
We are in a world line logic, not time line logic: the fact future sern would not learn about the time machine with the first D mail doesn't change anything because the convergence would keep the logic flow with the present SERN maintaining it by developping the time machine in the future, and send that information back to themselves. As such, the first d-mail is completely disconnected in the causality for SERN developping the time machine. It is the same reason why Mayuri still dies even if Okarin prevents the rounders raid, because Mayuri still can die from other causes, as long they are in the alpha attractor field.

That's why I'm mentioning the lab member badge: by interacting with the past regarding a certain information, its origin changes and it becomes self sustained. Because of this, if SERN ever learns about the time machine from the future, it means destroying the "original" source will not affect it one bit because the causality was completely changed.
In other world, the future would change: SERN learning the time machine from their future self, mean they create the time machine much earlier than already occured. Because of this, they already established their dystopia and can send again the information to their past self. Because of this, the first D mail has no relevancy to this matter anymore.

Also, this is heavily contradictory with SG0 considering how the beta worldline shifted to the alpha world line.

I also don't see why the first D-mail couldn't be the only origin of SERN completing the time machine by capturing them.
In fact, you didn't explain why they -need- that information from the future to make it work at all.

And I'd say they would if they could, but convergence means they cannot die, thus capture is the only option.

Convergence means the actions would have been prevented by the world itself. Yet, Moeka explicitely stated they are going to capture them. They didn't try to kill them at all. In fact, Moeka shouldn't even know "she can't kill them" because of the convergence since she doesn't have any RS.
You still didn't address the evidence regarding Kurisu's involvement with the time machine with what Suzuha stated. This practically means SERN need them, not that they are already done with the time machine.

[GDB]

Originally Posted by erneiz_hyde

Ah, I knew there are still people that didn't quite get why deleting D-Mail from Echelon would trigger a world shift. You see, it works like this:

The question is how SERN can obtain said data on Echelon in the first place, not how it triggers the shift.

This data implies there's a way to track changes in some capacity without Reading Steiner.

But in all, it still means nothing to my original point that scientists don't test something once and then give up, so they need to explain why those who triggered the most recent shift to the Alpha line won't just trigger another one.

[Klashikari]

Either ECHELON has an automated scan set a specific interval (like once a week or once a month) that put some report about suspicious intercepted messages, or they need an operator to check ECHELON log at regular interval.

In both cases, this explain why the first D-mail wasn't immediately detected by SERN because they need someone to notice that stuff first.

As for your initial point, I agree that Kurisu's d-mail here doesn't prevent the original perp to manipulate the world line, so they would normally try it again in the new beta world line, unless Kurisu's d-mail causes some serious butterfly effect which would prevent the initial attempt (which is way too convenient considering the actual impact of her d-mail).
Hence why I believe the anime brought an inconsistency in the plot, whereas the VN had Kurisu's D-mail affect the direct cause of the Beta->Alpha shift.

[erneiz_hyde]

Originally Posted by Klashikari

That's why I said it becomes a loop paradox.
If the present SERN learns about the time machine from the future SERN, this means that the present SERN CAN sustain this logic by creating the time machine and send an agent back to keep the consistency.
We are in a world line logic, not time line logic: the fact future sern would not learn about the time machine with the first D mail doesn't change anything because the convergence would keep the logic flow with the present SERN maintaining it by developping the time machine in the future, and send that information back to themselves. As such, the first d-mail is completely disconnected in the causality for SERN developping the time machine.

Ah, I see. You think that if present SERN learnt about the time machine from future SERN, then even if the D-Mail is erased, then the present SERN will still retain the information they received from the now non-existent time-traveling person/information. I think this is impossible unless SERN have RS.

My view is, present SERN checked the Echelon and found the first D-Mail now (year 2010) based on the tip from future SERN - and no other source - until a certain time in the future when SERN would've found it out regardless. As long as this condition remains the same, then no amount of time traveling can alter the dystopian future. But as soon as this condition is not met, then the world line shifts, thus the present SERN cannot maintain your proposed loop.

In fact, if by doing your proposed loop they can achieve eternal dystopia through time then why the hell wouldn't SERN have done this already. Simple answer is, they can't.

Originally Posted by Klashikari

Convergence means the actions would have been prevented by the world itself. Yet, Moeka explicitely stated they are going to capture them. They didn't try to kill them at all. In fact, Moeka shouldn't even know "she can't kill them" because of the convergence since she doesn't have any RS.

Moeka doesn't need to know that she can't kill them because SERN knows that they can't be killed so SERN gave the order to capture them in the first place.

Originally Posted by Klashikari

You still didn't address the evidence regarding Kurisu's involvement with the time machine with what Suzuha stated.

In the first place, the fact that SERN made public, and formed a cult regarding the involvement of Kurisu in the development of time machine is already very fishy. In any case, as I said before, even if present SERN already has the theory they still owe all that to the fact that they found that first D-Mail, and thus the FG labmen, and thus Kurisu.

[Klashikari]

Originally Posted by erneiz_hyde

Ah, I see. You think that if present SERN learnt about the time machine from future SERN, then even if the D-Mail is erased, then the present SERN will still retain the information they received from the now non-existent time-traveling person/information. I think this is impossible unless SERN have RS.

You don't need RS for result like that.
In the case of a D-mail, Moeka finding the IBN is the evidence of that: the dmail couldn't possibly be send by herself because that was in a previous world line, but the fact remains that she already seized the IBN. And she doesn't have any RS.
In the case of a time travel, we got the badge issue.

It is exactly the same with SERN:
-If SERN used a D-mail or time leap, the fact they can't send a message to themselves in the future doesn't change the fact they received a D-mail about the time machine. As for the time leap, that information is already preserved for that person. Ergo, okarin's first d-mail is no longer needed.
-If SERN used real time travel, the situation is exactly the same as Suzuha: she explicitely explain in the VN that the WL she visits when traveling back in time isn't the same as hers. This is the reason why time traveler cannot meet themselves as TT as well. We fall in the same issue as the lab mem badge: even if the past changes, as long the situation can be replicated with other means, then it will happen. Therefore, as long they know they got that information from the future, it will not prevent them to send it again, meaning the original source of that information is no longer relevant (think about Recursive Mother Goose and you will understand what I meant about that).

My view is, present SERN checked the Echelon and found the first D-Mail now (year 2010) based on the tip from future SERN - and no other source - until a certain time in the future when SERN would've found it out regardless. As long as this condition remains the same, then no amount of time traveling can alter the dystopian future. But as soon as this condition is not met, then the world line shifts, thus the present SERN cannot maintain your proposed loop.

When you interact with the past, you immediately affect how the WL respond to everything done that way. It is the same regardless if it is the alpha world line or the beta world line. With your logic of having SERN -obliged- to tip themselves, and thus, being unable to do that would undo that part of history, you cornered yourself with the time line logic, which in turn brings another issue: how did SERN manage to change the time (and then world line) from beta to alpha without any future interaction for the very first iteration? There ought to be a "time line" where SERN discovered the time machine without any future intervention. But this goes in contradiction with your assumption that they need that tip to work on everything.

Again, I don't see why SERN cannot simply find the D-mail in 2010 like usual after a normal procedure check and start their plan from there. I don't see any implication from the VN or original series where SERN tipped themselves, especially they could have done in a much more direct way if it is what they did. Instead of the tip, they could simply indicate clearly how to complete the theory instead.

In fact, if by doing your proposed loop they can achieve eternal dystopia through time then why the hell wouldn't SERN have done this already. Simple answer is, they can't.

It isn't like they can't, it is more like they didn't try it. As stupid as it sound, I wouldn't be surprise if they don't want to interact in that part of history to avoid any paradox. The whole issue with real time travel is that if you affect the past that would interact with the current present and future, you are at risk of screwing stuff. As far as logic goes in such scenario, SERN probably only tinkered the time continuum any part of history after they finished the time machine.
Suzuha explicitely said they dominated the world with the time machine, which means they actively used it to take control of the world. But they didn't send anyone to safeguard the origin of the time machine, or else we would have counter agent a la terminator in 2010. Simply speaking, SERN was either too arrogant thinking no one else had the time machine tech, or didn't want to risk anything about time paradox.

In the first place, the fact that SERN made public, and formed a cult regarding the involvement of Kurisu in the development of time machine is already very fishy. In any case, as I said before, even if present SERN already has the theory they still owe all that to the fact that they found that first D-Mail, and thus the FG labmen, and thus Kurisu.

I don't ever think it was a cult or anything. If anything, Suzuha is specialized in infiltration and actual combats, so it isn't surprising if she could get information from actual SERN employee and stuff like that.
Furthermore, it is very likely Okarin who explained how SERN got the time machine since he was captured in the first place. So it isn't like SERN has to make it public.

So everything point out that SERN doesn't have the complete time travel theory in 2010. Especially when other material such as distant valhalla prove th FG members had to work with SERN to complete the machine.

[erneiz_hyde]

Originally Posted by Klashikari

You don't need RS for result like that.
In the case of a D-mail, Moeka finding the IBN is the evidence of that: the dmail couldn't possibly be send by herself because that was in a previous world line, but the fact remains that she already seized the IBN. And she doesn't have any RS.
In the case of a time travel, we got the badge issue.

It is exactly the same with SERN:
-If SERN used a D-mail or time leap, the fact they can't send a message to themselves in the future doesn't change the fact they received a D-mail about the time machine. As for the time leap, that information is already preserved for that person. Ergo, okarin's first d-mail is no longer needed.
-If SERN used real time travel, the situation is exactly the same as Suzuha: she explicitely explain in the VN that the WL she visits when traveling back in time isn't the same as hers. This is the reason why time traveler cannot meet themselves as TT as well. We fall in the same issue as the lab mem badge: even if the past changes, as long the situation can be replicated with other means, then it will happen. Therefore, as long they know they got that information from the future, it will not prevent them to send it again, meaning the original source of that information is no longer relevant (think about Recursive Mother Goose and you will understand what I meant about that).

Oh, RMG. Yeah okay. I can see now that SERN can't have future info. My initial view is that if Rounder already knew about FG labmen then SERN must have already read the first D-Mail and deleting it would mean nothing. And I also thought that even though Okabe's blabber can be heard from the 1st floor it's weird for Rounder to take them seriously so they must have been on them since the beginning. But I guess one of Okabe's blabbers mentioned some keyword that they can't ignore like Rounders, Echelon, etc etc huh? Well, at least we agree that there is a deadline for deleting that first D-Mail in Echelon. But, just for the sake of completion let's discuss the rest.

Originally Posted by Klashikari

It isn't like they can't, it is more like they didn't try it. As stupid as it sound, I wouldn't be surprise if they don't want to interact in that part of history to avoid any paradox. The whole issue with real time travel is that if you affect the past that would interact with the current present and future, you are at risk of screwing stuff. As far as logic goes in such scenario, SERN probably only tinkered the time continuum any part of history after they finished the time machine.
Suzuha explicitely said they dominated the world with the time machine, which means they actively used it to take control of the world. But they didn't send anyone to safeguard the origin of the time machine, or else we would have counter agent a la terminator in 2010. Simply speaking, SERN was either too arrogant thinking no one else had the time machine tech, or didn't want to risk anything about time paradox.

The world line theory Suzuha stated specifically says that paradoxes like the grand father paradox are impossible though. And she must have known that from SERN. If SERN knew paradoxes are impossible then they don't need to fear causing paradoxes.

Originally Posted by Klashikari

I don't ever think it was a cult or anything. If anything, Suzuha is specialized in infiltration and actual combats, so it isn't surprising if she could get information from actual SERN employee and stuff like that.
Furthermore, it is very likely Okarin who explained how SERN got the time machine since he was captured in the first place. So it isn't like SERN has to make it public.

Kurisu is known as the mother of time machine, despite her being actually a captive working against her will. And iirc this is actually known publicly in the future, which means SERN made it so, even if they don't need to.

[Klashikari]

Originally Posted by erneiz_hyde

The world line theory Suzuha stated specifically says that paradoxes like the grand father paradox are impossible though. And she must have known that from SERN. If SERN knew paradoxes are impossible then they don't need to fear causing paradoxes.

Actually, the paradox is dealt with for world line change, but not time travel.
The world line shift prevents paradox regarding ongoing events affected by a change in the past. Basically, paradox cannot happen under such circumstances because the world line is shifted so the parameters of the world match the present based on the modified past.

But Paradox dealt by time traveler in their "present/current perspective" is "not allowed". It is the very reason why Suzuha was insistent about Okarin not to meet his past self during the very end of S;G, as it might lead to a severe paradox.
Likewise, in SG0 episode 9, Kurisu told Okarin that the attackers cannot go after the time machine because it would be a paradox: their research cannot be based on interference from the future.
So my conclusion is as follow: the future cannot alter directly the present which would change the origin/cause of that future action, as it would ultimately affect the present in an endless paradoxal state. Since the future didn't happen from the "present perspective" but still affect the present, it means that the required parameter doesn't exist yet but would be in such state that would recursively deny or confirm the future event, which is why it is considered as a huge time paradox in SG.

World Line shift is trickier but prevents paradox because the present is ongoing, but the past is settled. Since the past is changed from the perspective of the "present", then it means that the present must change to stay consistent, thus the world line shift. The fact the "previous world line" still existed makes the concept of world line shift "acceptable" in a sense that it "happened" already so there is that.

In other words, WL is acceptable in SG because the action affecting the present did happen and is in history. A time travel paradox is no good because it will recursively affect itself since it didn't happen yet. Of course, you may ask "but from the time travel perspective, the future is the present, and the present is the past, isn't it?".
Very true. However, the time traveler is really in a peculiar situation because they have their specific context of why they performed a time travel to begin with. They observe the world as it is, the "present". Therefore, they are in a unique situation where any change of the present would immediately affect them in return, which lead back to the "recursive" issue I was mentioning. The D-mail causing a WL shift is different mainly because the actor isn't obsering and acting directly on the change affecting the past itself.
Naturally, this also explains why Okarin must not undo the fact his past self witnessed Kurisu's "corpse" as it would immediately interfere with his current status. The scenarists pretty much abused some loophole in the time trvael paradox logic.

It sounds like a plot copout, but it explains why SERN cannot interfere in the present to secure their future domination: they cannot alter the present to be dependant of the future, since it would completely reverse the causality of such situation, and they probably knew about that since they worked really a long time on the time travel theory.
A World Line shift with a D-mail would be much more effective in this case, but as usual, D-mail are chaotic by nature since you cannot be sure if the result will be what you planned and there is the data limitation too. And I assume they weren't trigger happy with that kind of stuff, even though they did a hell lot of jellyman reports.

Let me say though that SG is not entirely perfect regarding time travel exactly because that "badge" issue is still an eyesore: the fact something fall in the "chicken or the egg" issue about the true origin of a certain event pretty much proves SG couldn't really escape the usual "paradox issues" with time travel stories. This only affect a minor thing like that lab member badge, but that's enough to tell you the writers were aware of their own limitations in their "time travel constraints". They are aware that certain paradoxes cannot be smoothen with the world line structure, but they unfortunately didn't avoid that with this peculiar story part.
In fact, Suzuha's presence is itself a rather large paradox for SG as a whole, but they presented in a way that "must be accepted" with the series premise because she is integral part of the world line shift in general, thanks to the status of the time machine depending on the attractor field.

[erneiz_hyde]

So I guess ultimately we're left with the Doylist reasoning rather than Watsonian. The writers do not want to deal with those cans of worms.