(L) Girls und Panzer

[00Coyote]

Originally Posted by Midonin

..... Here, most, if not all of the characters, feel like they're just... there. Managing a large cast can be possible in this amount of episodes - OreTsuba and any individual season of Koihime Musou stand out - but here, I'm just not comfortable with the hardware having more characterization and screentime than the people driving it. I care more about something if I can root for the people, otherwise it's just a machine.

The production team for GuP is putting a good amount of effort into establishing and keeping the idea 'yes, there are people (girls) in these machines' at the forefront of their story telling, to the point of flying in the face of common sense.

What do I mean? Take Miho. She is constantly sticking her head out of the tank, exposing herself to gunfire, shrapnel and the elements. It is not sane. You could try to write it (validly) off as she wants a better view. That's not the reason she is always unbuttoned. The production team is putting a 'face' to the machine. Time and time again, they make it a point to show the girls operating the tanks.

They start this in the very first episode, the first thing you see is tanks in the distance, followed by Miho and Yukari climbing into their tank. The next sequence is the first person PoV of the Ooarai team rolling out, and they made sure to show faces, the first was Saori looking at the camera, and then showing Yuuki waving from inside the M3. I haven't looked closely at the flow of their edits, but they seem to follow the convention 'exterior: show where the tank is going' -> 'interior: show what the girls are doing' during the action sequences.

I'd go way too TL;DR if I tried to list all of the times and ways they make sure to hammer home 'There are girls in those tanks' and that the tank follows the personality of the operators. (most obvious example: Type 89. Horrid horrid tank, but the crew has GUTS! Therefore the tank struggles on and survives against the combined firepower of the Pravada assault.)

You're not going to get deep, meaningful developed personalities in a cast of hundreds, with only a 12 episode run. Given the limited time they have available, and the humongous cast necessary to operate even the small number of tanks shown, GuP is doing a great job of fleshing out the teams as they can, while still moving the story forward, and not loosing their focus while doing that.

[4Tran]

Originally Posted by 00Coyote

From my point of view, Girls und Panzer is not a very technical show. Very little time is spent splurging on technical details of the tanks. For the most part, they are presented 'as is' with just their name and appearance given. In terms of tactics, and strategy, there is not much dialogue on it. None of this is to say these details don't exist. GuP is doing a FANTASTIC job of showing, not saying what is going on.

Details of the tanks, different models, their history and characteristics, the creators are aware of them, and they use them to add details to the setting and story, but they are rarely the front and center focus. They are left to the audience to find and discuss.

I completely agree with this. While Girls und Panzer takes some cues from regular sports shows, it also differs in several key ways. The most significant departure is that most sports shows feel a need to explain the sport in question and will spend lots of time on monologue doing just that. Take a show like Chihayafuru for example, and take note of how much time is spent on commentary or internal dialogue about things like who has an advantage in a match or what they should do and so forth. In Girls und Panzer, this aspect of the show is notably absent. I don't think that a single line of dialogue has been spent to talk about how the Black Forest AFVs are better than the Ooarai ones. Instead, the show has been relying on the direction and the action to tell the story, and that's a pretty impressive accomplishment.

I think that this is why Ooarai's opponents have to have larger numbers: they don't want to waste any time on less relevant details for non-tank buffs, so they use numbers as a short hand to indicate the disparity between forces. The same goes for all the unique paint jobs on the first five AFVs: it makes it a lot easier for non-tank buffs to tell them apart. The tank trivia is still built into the show, but it exists more as fanservice for tank buffs than as necessary for understanding what's going on.

Originally Posted by 00Coyote

I think it's the rarity of what we are given. There are many many character driven shows (cute girls doing cute things, Slice of Life, harem shows (of course whether those are character driven shows could be debated...) ) there are very few shows that feature tanks in as much detail as GuP. The viewers who like cute girls usually have something to talk about each season, the viewers who like cute tanks have had nothing to talk about for a long time.

In the previews and the first episode, Girls und Panzer looked a lot like these other shows. I don't think that it revealed its true colors until about episode 4.

Originally Posted by Endless Knackwurst

While GuP's storyline resembles Saki in many ways, I would think (I should check, but it's a good assumption) that discussions of Saki episodes didn't end up having wide-ranging debates about mahjong. There probably would have been a lot more discussion of the technical aspects of Strike Witches if they'd been flying their aircraft instead of wearing them.

In comparison to Strike Witches, I think that there may have been more discussion about WWII planes before the show aired than there was while it was airing. Saki did have lots of discussion about Mahjong - we discussed the rules, computer versions, tactics and everything. One big difference is that Mahjong is inherently played by individuals while tanks have to be crewed by teams. The result is that, outside of Team Anglerfish, it's rare to see any of the other characters do things on her own.

Originally Posted by Tak

See, I like this show in a way that you probably cannot appreciate. That is, the hardware over characters. When I heard what Girls und Panzer was about, I expected to see a display of World War II hardware as opposed to whoever operating them. The show offered an interesting premise and passable characterization, but I think the producers knew what the audiences were expecting and gave the show focus on the Panzers.

I feel it's more that Girls und Panzer was made this way because that's what the creators wanted rather than them thinking this would be what viewers were interested in. The previews and the first episode seem to be purposefully set up like a lot of those other cute girls doing cute things shows to sucker viewers in.

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

Alternatively I thought they would focus on only ONE tank. That of the main girls crewing the vehicle and no one else. This means team battles are impossible. And of course early on I realised that wasn't the direction they were going.

Bingo. I thought that the tank action was going to be mostly an afterthought, and that the creators were going to ignore the premise as much as possible. Lots of tank on tank combat was totally beyond my expectation. I suppose it's the difference between a tank action show with girls in it as opposed to a bishoujo show with a modicum of action. I also really (really, really) appreciate how the creators have restrained themselves from trying to explain everything. A similar level of restraint would have done wonders for a lot of shows.

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Finally saw the sub of ep10.

Amusing that they could buy tank conversion kits. It's essentially plastic models in real life scale. Also it does seem this is all about the money; the rest of the school has donated what little they had to purchase the upgrades applied.

The gamers had ZERO experience, just like their tank. They never touched a real tank before, and they only got their tank the day before the match. There was simply no way for them to do anything. It seems they are the sacrificial lamb for the first kill, and potential future growth in any sequels.

[Gravitas Free Zone]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

The gamers had ZERO experience, just like their tank. They never touched a real tank before, and they only got their tank the day before the match. There was simply no way for them to do anything. It seems they are the sacrificial lamb for the first kill, and potential future growth in any sequels.

I'm not always sure if the show is compressing the time between matches or if they really are just doing a match every two days, which seems a little crazy.

Anyway, speaking of the transition from gaming to reality, I used to play Steel Beasts a number of years ago, or "Everything you ever wanted to know about using a rangefinding laser." Shortly after that I got inside a couple of M1 Abrams on different occasions. Being inside a little metal can and figuring out how a guy moves fifty-pound hunks of metal from the ammo bin to the breech really reminds a person of the gap between the computer screen and reality.

[Kamui04]

The official page has been updated with the info on the Vehicle team.
And the mascot is officially a Leopon (hybrid offspring from a Male Leopard and a Lioness).
And their profiles pretty much fit with the real life racing drivers I mentioned in my previous post.

[Chiaki_chan]

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by Endless Knackwurst

I'm not always sure if the show is compressing the time between matches or if they really are just doing a match every two days, which seems a little crazy.

Yeah, they probably have a handful of days between matches. It doesn't change VCV's basic point, though.

(Here, they needed time to repair the tanks, decide what to do with their money, implement that solution, refurbish the Chi-Nu, go to Hana's expo... No way they could have done it all in one day.)

[Sumeragi]

I'm thinking at least a week in between. We also have to consider the ships moving back and forth.

[Midonin]

Originally Posted by 4Tran

I feel it's more that Girls und Panzer was made this way because that's what the creators wanted rather than them thinking this would be what viewers were interested in. The previews and the first episode seem to be purposefully set up like a lot of those other cute girls doing cute things shows to sucker viewers in.

Why, though, must the people watching for the girls be the "lesser" part of the fanbase? It's the same argument I heard for shows like Sakurasou - the people who enjoy things like comedy and fanservice and familiar elements (such as in this case, the characters) are just there to be roped in, while the people who prefer the "serious" elements are the ones who "get" it. It's a false dichotomy I've never been very fond of. I understand that a lot of people are watching for both, but what the show's doing (and again, the proportion of discussion in this thread), is done in a way that discussion on the other half of the show is minimal, or at least lacks an easy way to wedge itself into the conversation.

If I'm going to be drawn in, I at least want some of the element I came here for. I know they're emphasizing that there are people inside the vehicles, but if these people have the bare minimum of personality, to a point where they can only be discussed in the broadest of terms, I can't say I can completely get behind a show like that, even if it is fun to watch.

Originally Posted by 4Tran

The result is that, outside of Team Anglerfish, it's rare to see any of the other characters do things on her own.

That's one of the bigger things I have a problem with. The student council is lucky they were able to be differentiated to the degree that they are.

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

See, that's where reality comes in. The greatest issue of GuP is NOT that the tanks are getting in the way of the girls; it's that it is impossible for a 12 episode series to handle a cast of two dozen.

In most 1 cour anime, you are lucky to have a dozen characters with spoken roles. Let alone double that number. You are blaming GuP for having too much tank and not enough girl; I say I dare you to find a 1 cour anime that has a dozen girls all developed properly in the given timeframe.

I am defending the studio for doing what they can. It is simply unfair that you demand characterisation of such a large cast in such a short time. There is a reason most anime don't bother with more than 6 major characters.

[Midonin]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

I say I dare you to find a 1 cour anime that has a dozen girls all developed properly in the given timeframe.

Oretachi ni Tsubasa wa Nai. It has a very large cast, and condensed a rather dense game into a 12-episode timespan while giving as much characterization as it could to every character. It's not impossible.

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by Midonin

Oretachi ni Tsubasa wa Nai. It has a very large cast, and condensed a rather dense game into a 12-episode timespan while giving as much characterization as it could to every character. It's not impossible.

I think I will give up now. Time will decide if I would filter you entirely. I enjoy SoL shows as much as anybody, but this is the first time I see someone so insist on turning a sports anime into slice of life. You have the right to your opinion, and have been polite to the rest of us. But I am not sure I can handle the passive aggressive backhanded complements much longer. The director tried so hard to do something different, and yet here you want him to follow what every other show is doing.

I am sorry, I don't want to be mad at you. But I am. You are definitely not saying anything wrong, but it still infuriates me. The GuP staff is being pushed to their limits, and yet it isn't good enough for you. I am not sure I want to hear you rip the show apart in 3 months time.

I know I am being rude, and for that I am sorry. But my anger is real, and there is nothing I can do about that, the same way I can't make you like what you don't think is good enough for your standards.

[Midonin]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

I am sorry, I don't want to be mad at you. But I am. You are definitely not saying anything wrong, but it still infuriates me. The GuP staff is being pushed to their limits, and yet it isn't good enough for you. I am not sure I want to hear you rip the show apart in 3 months time.

I'm not trying to rip the show apart, and for me to be overtly negative towards anything at all is difficult. It's just a combination of the discussion in this thread and the way the show is presenting itself (plus several weeks of holding back) that caused me to get this debate out and just as you don't want to be angry at me, I don't want to be angry at any of you, either. It's simply a case of two very different viewpoints of what people want out of anime.

I'm sorry if I've caused anyone trouble. I stand by what I said, but if any of it came across as rude, then my sincerest apologies. At least, I hope everyone was able to get an interesting debate out of it.

[Panzerklein]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

Finally saw the sub of ep10.

Amusing that they could buy tank conversion kits. It's essentially plastic models in real life scale. Also it does seem this is all about the money; the rest of the school has donated what little they had to purchase the upgrades applied.

The gamers had ZERO experience, just like their tank. They never touched a real tank before, and they only got their tank the day before the match. There was simply no way for them to do anything. It seems they are the sacrificial lamb for the first kill, and potential future growth in any sequels.

They just don't have experience in real tank operation. But the gamers will grow fast because their experience in tactics and weak/strong points of tanks from the game and mastering the tank operation will not take much of time just like B1 Chas's team.

@Midorin: Oretachi ni Tsubasa wa Nai don't has fking tank fighiting, mechanic, they don't need to balance these element. funny comparision.

If this show don't interesting you becuase it is balance the story of character and mechenic, tank fighting than focus on character development, or other reasions, bla bla bla. You can keep quiet, get out and watch other series in silence. Thank you.

[Liddo-kun]

Originally Posted by Tak

See, I like this show in a way that you probably cannot appreciate. That is, the hardware over characters. When I heard what Girls und Panzer was about, I expected to see a display of World War II hardware as opposed to whoever operating them. The show offered an interesting premise and passable characterization, but I think the producers knew what the audiences were expecting and gave the show focus on the Panzers.

Characters in this show were secondary to everything else. Though I must admit, the characters nonetheless found a way to invade my psyche. Quite an achievement, I tell ya.

- Tak

Like it in almost the same way. Surprised how much attention is given to the tanks. It got me interested to learn more about the PZ IV, STuG, Churchill (just to name a few) in wikipedia.

As for the character development, the 5 main characters have been humanized enough for me - Miho is the kind leader with a past, Saori is the motherly type who is also good at talking with people, Mako is the sleepy person who talks in a way that sometimes annoys others, Hana is a brave person who is willing to follow her own path, and Yukari is a tank enthusiast who is a reliable friend to Miho. I'm quite surprised that the many supporting characters from Oorai (student council, volleyball team, history club, first years) also had some decent screentime throughout the show. Then we have the country themed opponents.. and this is one of the better anime for me this year.

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by Midonin

Why, though, must the people watching for the girls be the "lesser" part of the fanbase? It's the same argument I heard for shows like Sakurasou - the people who enjoy things like comedy and fanservice and familiar elements (such as in this case, the characters) are just there to be roped in, while the people who prefer the "serious" elements are the ones who "get" it. It's a false dichotomy I've never been very fond of. I understand that a lot of people are watching for both, but what the show's doing (and again, the proportion of discussion in this thread), is done in a way that discussion on the other half of the show is minimal, or at least lacks an easy way to wedge itself into the conversation.

If you've got something to say about the characters, just say it. Nobody's keeping you from doing just that. Not even the people busy comparing tanks are going to accuse you of derailing the conversation.

If, however, you lament not having anything to say, then the conclusion is that you've been watching the wrong show. It happens. You may consider it unfortunate, but here we are.

(POV of someone who doesn't know or care about tanks either. And who doesn't have a lot to say about GuP either. Doesn't keep me from enjoying the show and the thread, though.)

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by Midonin

I'm not trying to rip the show apart, and for me to be overtly negative towards anything at all is difficult. It's just a combination of the discussion in this thread and the way the show is presenting itself (plus several weeks of holding back) that caused me to get this debate out and just as you don't want to be angry at me, I don't want to be angry at any of you, either. It's simply a case of two very different viewpoints of what people want out of anime.

I'm sorry if I've caused anyone trouble. I stand by what I said, but if any of it came across as rude, then my sincerest apologies. At least, I hope everyone was able to get an interesting debate out of it.

As I say, you are not in the wrong. It's just that emotions are by nature illogical and don't care about such things. Your preferences are valid. I just have trouble comprehending your views that the show can have more character interactions without cutting out the tanks entirely.

They are literally squeezing every minute of screen time on either character development or tanks. Maybe even doing it too much, as the timeframe compression is rather noticeable. I can't help but feel it is unreasonable to demand more girl time when the episodes are overflowing as it is.

[FredFriendly]

Originally Posted by Midonin

If I'm going to be drawn in, I at least want some of the element I came here for...

So, instead of moaning about nobody talking about the characters, why don't we have a conversation about them, instead a conversation about not having a conversation about them? This just seems silly to me.

I'll start with: why do so many of the characters (and perhaps viewers) think Miho is a great leader? I just don't understand. She seems weak, wishy-washy, confused most of the time, and not well suited to be the commandant. What am I missing here?

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

I say I dare you to find a 1 cour anime that has a dozen girls all developed properly in the given timeframe.

Although I'm not saying I diasagree with you, but how about half a dozen? Kenko Zenrakei Suieibu Umisho, as an example, with only 13 episodes, did an excellent job of portraying the six main female characters (as well as a few others, plus several male characters) so that they each came across as very unique individuals, not just nameless blobs in the crowd (or girls in the tanks). Even now I can remember their names, though it's been a while since I watched the series.

On the other hand, the only two faces I can name in this series, after eleven episodes in the last eleven weeks, are Miho and Maho. And I can only remember Maho as she happens to be Miho's sister. For me, this isn't because there's so many cast members that I'm overwhelmed, but because the characters, themselves, are not very prominent. And if Miho was not the main character, I probably wouldn't remember her name, either.

[Panzerklein]

Most of history stories. People want to know detail of the battles, the wars rather than stories of all soldiers :-". GuP tried the best to balance the characters and tank fighiting because tank fighting is the important part of series if don't say it is the most important, they don't has enough time for much character development like Umisho which swimming competition don't take a lot of time like tank fighting, swiming in 100m don't cost hours (each tank battle in the series cost around 1~2 episode per battle and we have 5 battles in 1 cour despite they cut off Italian-school because don't has enough time), so Umisho has more time to deverlope character; Oretachi ni Tsubasa wa Nai is based on erotic visual novel, thus character development is important and it don't has as much as girls like GuP.

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by FredFriendly

So, instead of moaning about nobody talking about the characters, why don't we have a conversation about them, instead a conversation about not having a conversation about them? This just seems silly to me.

I'll start with: why do so many of the characters (and perhaps viewers) think Miho is a great leader? I just don't understand. She seems weak, wishy-washy, confused most of the time, and not well suited to be the commandant. What am I missing here?

I don't think she's very good either, but she did take her team all the way to the finals, so there's that. And she does have a knack for seeing how the other side thinks, even if she can't apply it very well.

Besides, a ragtag band of misfits is harder to lead than a disciplined troupe steeped in tradition like Black Forest.

Although I'm not saying I diasagree with you, but how about half a dozen? Kenko Zenrakei Suieibu Umisho, as an example, with only 13 episodes, did an excellent job of portraying the six main female characters (as well as a few others, plus several male characters) so that they each came across as very unique individuals, not just nameless blobs in the crowd (or girls in the tanks). Even now I can remember their names, though it's been a while since I watched the series.

On the other hand, the only two faces I can name in this series, after eleven episodes in the last eleven weeks, are Miho and Maho. And I can only remember Maho as she happens to be Miho's sister. For me, this isn't because there's so many cast members that I'm overwhelmed, but because the characters, themselves, are not very prominent. And if Miho was not the main character, I probably wouldn't remember her name, either.

he did say half a dozen was usual.

And personally, I think the whole Anglerfish is decently characterized. So's the student council.