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Old 2014-02-12, 23:39   Link #61
kyp275
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kuroishinigami View Post
Again, we're talking about immigrants who have stayed for 2-3 generations here. Let's forget the technicality of what you call them for a while, my main question is, can you differentiate at a glance between native Chinese taiwan and generation 2 mainland immigrant by looks or language anymore? And if you can't, how do the natives hold a grudge against immigrants who at a glance, look exactly the same as them(Or does the people at mainland/taiwan somehow can differentiate at a glance that someone came from mainland or a native taiwanese, dialects aside?)
I think you're a bit off in framing the question. Immigrants in Taiwan isn't any different than immigrants in other countries. First generation immigrants (depending on age) may or may not completely assimilate into the host country, but second or third gen? by that point they are no different than the native population. In this case they are not "mainland Chinese immigrants", they are Taiwanese.
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Old 2014-02-12, 23:40   Link #62
Vallen Chaos Valiant
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kuroishinigami View Post
Again, we're talking about immigrants who have stayed for 2-3 generations here. Let's forget the technicality of what you call them for a while, my main question is, can you differentiate at a glance between native Chinese taiwan and generation 2 mainland immigrant by looks or language anymore? And if you can't, how do the natives hold a grudge against immigrants who at a glance, look exactly the same as them(Or does the people at mainland/taiwan somehow can differentiate at a glance that someone came from mainland or a native taiwanese, dialects aside?)
Are we going to organise territories by physical appearances now?

"They look the same, so China should invade
" is even more insulting than I thought possible. To the West all Asians look the same, so maybe they should all being forcefully combined?

Who cares if you can "differentiate at a glance" or not? If you think this is about race then you are missing the point entirely. No one but you is suggesting that Taiwan should be independent because we have different genes. That's not relevant at all. Nationality have nothing to do with genetics, or even culture. Taiwan is not China, not matter how you want to simplify it down to ridiculous levels.

Grudge against immigrants? There is nothing like that. Taiwan care about only one thing; that China threatens Taiwan with violence, and that it can never be truly free until China backs off. This is done on the political level, and no amount of cultural exchange can solve it until the the threat of violence is taken off the table.
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Old 2014-02-12, 23:43   Link #63
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Taiwan is "not Chinese" for two reasons - Japanese imperialism and Communists. One of these problems was solved in 1945, the other begun in 1949.

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Old 2014-02-12, 23:45   Link #64
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Ah, I see. So what happened with Korea now repeated again with Taiwan and China.

Foolist Mao. He could had taken back Taiwan, just like how Vietnam did. If the people don't want unification, they how would a united future could exist?
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Old 2014-02-12, 23:47   Link #65
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We don't have infinite funds either...
We do. We can magically pull money out of thin air to buy bonds with them!
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Old 2014-02-12, 23:51   Link #66
kuroishinigami
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
Are we going to organise territories by physical appearances now?

"They look the same, so China should invade
" is even more insulting than I thought possible. To the West all Asians look the same, so maybe they should all being forcefully combined?

Who cares if you can "differentiate at a glance" or not? If you think this is about race then you are missing the point entirely. No one but you is suggesting that Taiwan should be independent because we have different genes. That's not relevant at all. Nationality have nothing to do with genetics, or even culture. Taiwan is not China, not matter how you want to simplify it down to ridiculous levels.
I think you're a little too hot-headed there so calm down a little bit. I'm not suggesting China should invade at all, in fact I prefer Taiwan to be independent(and I abhor arms invasion the most >_<). I'm only entertaining the idea, is it possible to "invade" a country whose native people are the same race subtly by sending migrants and strengthening their economic ties so much that they depend on each other.


Quote:
Originally Posted by kyp275 View Post
I think you're a bit off in framing the question. Immigrants in Taiwan isn't any different than immigrants in other countries. First generation immigrants (depending on age) may or may not completely assimilate into the host country, but second or third gen? by that point they are no different than the native population. In this case they are not "mainland Chinese immigrants", they are Taiwanese.
Hmm, but even by second or third gen, let's take America for example, some white american can still hate and be racist to african-american and it's easier to flame the mass by pulling the card "they steals our job" because they look different, but in taiwan-china case, it's harder to pull that card by 2nd to 3rd generation because lookwise, they are indistinguishable.

My line of thought is this, if, because they look the same, immigrant from mainland in large number(who might only be indifferent to unitifaction of China and Taiwan) completely assimilate with the native Taiwanese, by the 2nd - 3rd generation, or maybe even furthe like 5th or 6th generation, the descendant of mix mainland immigrant-assimilated mainland or both assimilated mainland parent, who might not be so much in opposition of unification with China(yet not pushing it either), might outnumber the "pure" native Taiwanese who are 100% against such idea. If by that time, due to how economically they depend on each other so much, someone put out the idea "why don't we just join China with the same status as Hong Kong", the idea might go through, and the bloodless "invasion" is complete.
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Old 2014-02-12, 23:53   Link #67
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Originally Posted by Fireminer View Post
Ah, I see. So what happened with Korea now repeated again with Taiwan and China.

Foolist Mao. He could had taken back Taiwan, just like how Vietnam did. If the people don't want unification, they how would a united future could exist?
Actually as was explained earlier, American backing was what kept Taiwan around. And it was Chiang's foolishness that rejected the path to independence and UN recognition. Because he wanted to be the ruler of China once again.

There was video footage of Chiang's men in a Taiwan political assembly, where the exiled provincial rulers of each part of China declaring their status as the rightful officials of each province.

There was never any talk of unification; Chiang just want Mao dead and re-take the country as the original Strongman/dictator.

And of course, the complication is that the local Taiwanese never saw any reason "unify" with China. What for? Losing everything and gain nothing?

Quote:
is it possible to "invade" a country whose native people are the same race subtly by sending migrants and strengthening their economic ties so much that they depend on each other.
Yes. It is possible. But you can say the same thing about Chimerica; the slang to describe the economic situation whereby the US is dependent on Chinese savers for money while China is dependent on America for exports.

By your argument, China should organised USA as a new province of the Communist Party. Your error is assuming there is a link between economic ties and political assimilation. There is not. It would be as preposterous as saying me being invited to your home for dinner means I got permission to have sex with your wife.
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Old 2014-02-13, 00:09   Link #68
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kyp275 View Post
Blaming the anti-China sentiment on Japan is like blaming John Kennedy for the NSA wiretap program.
No, that precedent would be from Wilson and FDR. Chiang made huge blunders handling popular issues both on the Mainland and Taiwan but he doesn't get credit for his positives, particularly the economic modernization programs he got from the German-inspired 3-year plan.

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A brother doesn't threaten to kill you if he doesn't get his way.

My point stands; if China want to be friends with Taiwan, they can start by allowing it to become independent. THEN we can be friends.

No go? Then the deal's off. Brothers treat each other like brothers. China doe NOT treat Taiwan like a brother, and that's the end of that.

It's what you do that counts, not mere words.
Taiwan didn't treat the Mainland as family either during the Japanese occupation or after as well as aiding/abetting US and Japan against them, so expecting niceties without constraints by this point is a geopolitical pipe dream. The Americans in the Mainland's position would be as adamant and that's perfectly understandable.

Quote:
Are we going to organise territories by physical appearances now?

"They look the same, so China should invade" is even more insulting than I thought possible. To the West all Asians look the same, so maybe they should all being forcefully combined?

Who cares if you can "differentiate at a glance" or not? If you think this is about race then you are missing the point entirely. No one but you is suggesting that Taiwan should be independent because we have different genes. That's not relevant at all. Nationality have nothing to do with genetics, or even culture. Taiwan is not China, not matter how you want to simplify it down to ridiculous levels.

Grudge against immigrants? There is nothing like that. Taiwan care about only one thing; that China threatens Taiwan with violence, and that it can never be truly free until China backs off. This is done on the political level, and no amount of cultural exchange can solve it until the the threat of violence is taken off the table.
Based on the comments from folks like Lee Teng-Hui and Ah Bian (among others) even if the Mainland was the best liberal democracy in the world it still wouldn't matter as such people have already made up their minds in opposition to any sort of entreaties by the Mainland, along with the underlying Hoklo supremacism underpining much of the Taiwan nationality sentiment makes the PRC maintaining the geopolitical stick well within rationale grounds.
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Old 2014-02-13, 00:15   Link #69
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Originally Posted by aldw View Post
Based on the comments from folks like Lee Teng-Hui and Ah Bian (among others) even if the Mainland was the best liberal democracy in the world it still wouldn't matter as such people have already made up their minds in opposition to any sort of entreaties by the Mainland, along with the underlying Hoklo supremacism underpining much of the Taiwan nationality sentiment makes the PRC maintaining the geopolitical stick well within rationale grounds.
The geopolitical stick? For what?

What kind of "stick" does China need, when it can just nuke Taiwan off the map? What kind of horrible illusion are you under that you think China needs to defend itself against Taiwan aggression, of all things?

Taiwan doesn't want or need entreaties. Taiwan wants to be Taiwan. If that's enough reason to be considered a threat to China, then China better start a world conquest campaign.

And no, it doesn't matter if China become some fantastic liberal democracy. Because Taiwan isn't interested in being part of China. You can't assume Taiwan is just holding out for a better deal, no means no. If China want to be friend to Taiwan, it is free to permit our independence, and then we can peacefully associate with each other as nations. Until then, it is all just meaningless sweet words
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Old 2014-02-13, 00:17   Link #70
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As much as I hate Taiwan's affiliation with Chiang and their stupid attends to make Sun NOT the father of modern China, I'd support the independence of Taiwan just to piss off the commies in their doghouse in Beijing. Keep up to date with the arsenal and make sure Taiwan ain't too deeply depended on China economically like America.
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Old 2014-02-13, 00:23   Link #71
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Originally Posted by DevilHighDxD View Post
As much as I hate Taiwan's affiliation with Chiang and their stupid attends to make Sun NOT the father of modern China, I'd support the independent of Taiwan just to piss off the commies in their doghouse in Beijing. Keep up to date with the arsenal and make sure Taiwan ain't too deeply depended on China economically like America.
Rest assured, Taiwan is much more aware of what Chiang did in his reign now. One could even say that Mao did the right thing by forcing that monster out of China into a tiny island. But two wrongs doesn't make a right. Chiang was a dictator, but so was Mao. Chiang's people have died of old age in Taiwan, but Mao's legacy lived on in China.
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Old 2014-02-13, 00:38   Link #72
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If memory serves, before Chiang and his forces arrived, and before the Japanese came, Formosa was controlled by a group from one of the older diposed imperial families governements, right? They had fled a while back when the governement changed. So for generations they were not nationally Chinese because they were oppose to the new Empire and the warlords that followed.

Then the Japanese came and shifted the population a bit more (politically and genetically).

Then after the wars, Chiang came with mainlanders and took over as the Republic of China. It has been a few generations since then.

What has changed in terms of Taiwan's people wanting to be affiliated with the mainland? Outside political retoric? Not much. They still want to be their own island from what I can tell.
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Old 2014-02-13, 00:45   Link #73
kyp275
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kuroishinigami View Post
My line of thought is this, if, because they look the same, immigrant from mainland in large number(who might only be indifferent to unitifaction of China and Taiwan) completely assimilate with the native Taiwanese, by the 2nd - 3rd generation, or maybe even furthe like 5th or 6th generation, the descendant of mix mainland immigrant-assimilated mainland or both assimilated mainland parent, who might not be so much in opposition of unification with China(yet not pushing it either), might outnumber the "pure" native Taiwanese who are 100% against such idea.
This is where your mistakes lies. You're assuming that because of their ancestry, later generation immigrants would somehow have less allegiance to their country they are born in, but instead where their grand/great-grandparents came from.

That's extremely unlikely, it'd be as if an American citizen today whose family immigrated to the US in the early 1900s considering himself as a citizen of Ireland instead of the US.

Also, not sure if you realize this, but something akin to what you're thinking already happened on a far larger scale than you're thinking about - the KMT retreat to Taiwan brought with it 2 million mainlanders - which consists a full 1/4th of the population then of 8 million. We certainly hasn't grown more accepting of the prospect of Chinese rule.

Quote:
Originally Posted by aldw View Post
Chiang made huge blunders handling popular issues both on the Mainland and Taiwan but he doesn't get credit for his positives, particularly the economic modernization programs he got from the German-inspired 3-year plan.
The questionable holdings by KMT is enough "credit" to his positives.

Quote:
Taiwan didn't treat the Mainland as family either during the Japanese occupation or after as well as aiding/abetting US and Japan against them
Wow, are you serious? What military did Taiwan have to resist the Japanese? whom btw was merely the latest in a long line of colonial powers to rule the island, and were given the island BY the Qing?

Abetting the US and Japan against China? ffs, how the hell are you supposed to abett your allies against your enemy again?

Quote:
The Americans in the Mainland's position would be as adamant and that's perfectly understandable.
Please show me the last country the US forcibly annexed against the will of the population under threat of destruction. Go ahead, I'll wait.

The closest example would be Puerto Rico, as opposed to PRC, which never had jurisdiction over Taiwan for a single millisecond, PR has been part of the US for over 100 years. Is the US aiming missiles at PR threatening its destruction if they decide to declare independence?

Quote:
Based on the comments from folks like Lee Teng-Hui and Ah Bian (among others) even if the Mainland was the best liberal democracy in the world it still wouldn't matter as such people have already made up their minds in opposition to any sort of entreaties by the Mainland
Since when does even "being the best liberal democracy in the world" means other sovereign state need to join in the fold? Should the US have annexed Europe after WW2? clearly it fits that criteria back then.

Quote:
along with the underlying Hoklo supremacism underpining much of the Taiwan nationality sentiment makes the PRC maintaining the geopolitical stick well within rationale grounds.
whatisthisidonteven.

That's like saying the US need to watch out for Cuba, because you know, because

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ithekro View Post
If memory serves, before Chiang and his forces arrived, and before the Japanese came, Formosa was controlled by a group from one of the older diposed imperial families governements, right? They had fled a while back when the governement changed. So for generations they were not nationally Chinese because they were oppose to the new Empire and the warlords that followed.
Actually, the Dutch were the first to establish a presence on the island besides the aboriginals tribes, later joined by the Spanish. Ming loyalists later went to the island and expelled the Europeans, and were later themselves defeated by the Qing dynasty, whom then ceded control of the island to Japan after the Sino-Japanese war.

To try to claim Taiwan today as part of China because of a long-gone dynasty once ruled the island is asinine. It would be like Italy invading Turkey because it was once part of the Roman Empire -_-

Last edited by kyp275; 2014-02-13 at 01:04.
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Old 2014-02-13, 01:16   Link #74
Ithekro
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Back in the days of American Imperialism (as it is called sometimes) the phase was "Speak softly, and carry a big stick".

Most territories taken in that period (1890s) were either via treaty after defeating Spain (Puerto Rico, Philippines (for $20 miillion dollars), Guam, and Cuba, though the last one become a protectorate rather than be annexed) or other methods, like in Hawaii. Or economic/polical deals such as the Canal Zone in Panama. Or at the behest of a foreign governement (Nicaragua in the 1910s to 1930s, though that was occupation rather than annexation).

I am not sure if it was a common thing with the world powers at the time, but I noticed that the United States, in the 19th century, would fight a war over territory, beat the other country, then pay them for the territory taken. They did this with both Spain and Mexico.
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Old 2014-02-13, 01:20   Link #75
kuroishinigami
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Originally Posted by kyp275 View Post
This is where your mistakes lies. You're assuming that because of their ancestry, later generation immigrants would somehow have less allegiance to their country they are born in, but instead where their grand/great-grandparents came from.

That's extremely unlikely, it'd be as if an American citizen today whose family immigrated to the US in the early 1900s considering himself as a citizen of Ireland instead of the US.

Also, not sure if you realize this, but something akin to what you're thinking already happened on a far larger scale than you're thinking about - the KMT retreat to Taiwan brought with it 2 million mainlanders - which consists a full 1/4th of the population then of 8 million. We certainly hasn't grown more accepting of the prospect of Chinese rule.

Hmm, good argument there. I guess my hypothesis is wrong from the basic assumption.
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Old 2014-02-13, 02:00   Link #76
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Well, that is what everyone think. What do you get from everything. But for me and other young Vietnamese, it's the right of a country to be unified. It's more than just economical or military gain. It's a bloodline that flows through each of us. Every ethnic in my country has a common folklore, you know? All of us are from the same mother, whether was she a fairy or a dragon. It's like Jew all over the world, how ever different their genes are, all look toward Israel.

But maybe that these thing didn't matter much with Western culture. Guess that the word Communist alone would you guys tag us as devils, whether we are Vietnamese, Chinese, Cuban,...
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Old 2014-02-13, 02:18   Link #77
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Well, that is what everyone think. What do you get from everything. But for me and other young Vietnamese, it's the right of a country to be unified. It's more than just economical or military gain. It's a bloodline that flows through each of us. Every ethnic in my country has a common folklore, you know? All of us are from the same mother, whether was she a fairy or a dragon. It's like Jew all over the world, how ever different their genes are, all look toward Israel.

But maybe that these thing didn't matter much with Western culture. Guess that the word Communist alone would you guys tag us as devils, whether we are Vietnamese, Chinese, Cuban,...
And that's where your confusion came from. You see, Taiwan in recently history have been handed back and forth between multiple empires of one description or another. Taiwan has its own culture, separate from the mainland, and it is only becoming more, not less, similar to China. The average Taiwanese had never seen the CCP treat Taiwan like family; all they had ever seen is a bully threatening them on a regular basis. You can argue family ties if you want, but what makes you family isn't your genes, but how you treat each other.

You speak about your fellow Vietnamese. But would your tone be so friendly if some of them threaten to hurt your parents? In this very forum, many years ago, one such Chinese said in PM that he look forward to my parents being butchered when the Chinese invasion happens. Do you think I should feel brotherly love towards that man?

EDIT: Actually, you SHOULD remember that old China had previously attempted to conquer Vietnam. So let me ask you this; if China demands that Vietnam become a province of China, would you be willing to go along with it because you are fine with "being unified"?
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Old 2014-02-13, 02:23   Link #78
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Originally Posted by kyp275 View Post
Actually, the Dutch were the first to establish a presence on the island besides the aboriginals tribes, later joined by the Spanish. Ming loyalists later went to the island and expelled the Europeans, and were later themselves defeated by the Qing dynasty, whom then ceded control of the island to Japan after the Sino-Japanese war.

To try to claim Taiwan today as part of China because of a long-gone dynasty once ruled the island is asinine. It would be like Italy invading Turkey because it was once part of the Roman Empire -_-
That long-gone dynasty didn't die until 1913, and Taiwan was still part of the Qing dynasty in 1895. The PRC's claims over Taiwan date from 1949 - that's just over 50 years since Japan took over the island. To put that in perspective, Japan wants the Kuril islands back from Russia. The Kurils were lost in 1945, and neither Imperial Japan nor the Soviet Union even exist any more.

Moreover, reclaiming the territories lost by the Qing is the second-most important foreign policy goal of the PRC. If Taiwan wasn't already a de facto independent country, China's claim would be extremely solid.

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Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant View Post
EDIT: Actually, you SHOULD remember that old China had previously attempted to conquer Vietnam. So let me ask you this; if China demands that Vietnam become a province of China, would you be willing to go along with it because you are fine with "being unified"?
The Sino-Vietnamese War had a much more limited scope than conquest. It was framed as a retaliatory conflict over the Vietnamese invasion of Cambodia. I don't think that China has any intentions on Vietnamese territories since it was independent of Qing control.
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Old 2014-02-13, 02:29   Link #79
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The Sino-Vietnamese War had a much more limited scope than conquest. It was framed as a retaliatory conflict over the Vietnamese invasion of Cambodia. I don't think that China has any intentions on Vietnamese territories since it was independent of Qing control.
That's not what I was asking. I was asking if right now, Today, China demands that Vietnam become part of Chinese territory, that if Fireminer would be happy to give up his country because of his implication that he doesn't see the difference between them.
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Old 2014-02-13, 02:47   Link #80
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The War for Independent of Vietnam has never end. When we don't fight with arms, we fight with our knowledge. The unique Water Rice culture. The only Ancesstor Worshiping culture. The can't-be-seen mix between Chinese wisdom, French elegant, and the Core which origin from far old Polynesian tribles that once roamed this land. 3000 years, my friend, compare to less than a century.
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