Code Geass Episode 16 Discussion / Poll

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by evil|plushie

Finally, more of Suzakus past is explained. Hopefully they don't just stop here and continue to develop more of his character because it still needs lots of development.

And seriously, since when did a PM dying have so much influence over the war? Shouldn't the vice-PM have stepped in or something?

Well, as I just proposed in the spoiler thread, perhaps Suzaku didn't think that far ahead.
How old was Suzaku at that time? Guess this is another example of the dangers of knowing only a little about something.

If Suzaku know nothing about the war, he wouldn't have killed his dad for it.
If Suzaku knows enough about how the Britannian invasion war worked, he would realise killing his dad is useless.

But unfortunately, Suzaku knew just enough of the facts to believe he needed to act, but not enough to know how to act.

[Renegade334]

Originally Posted by evil|plushie

And seriously, since when did a PM dying have so much influence over the war? Shouldn't the vice-PM have stepped in or something?

Well, the two questions that comes to the fore then would be, "how bad was it by the time the PM died?" and "was there someone else left to stand up and take over?"
From what the Four Heavenly Swords (Toudou's subordinates) said, the JSDF was in a rout courtesy of Britannia's superior technology and advanced warfare. If the country went down due to Black Ops (assassination of key individuals, PsyOps, transmission jamming) and complete chaos had rulership over the nation, with scattered soldiers and members of the hierarchy hastily beating a retreat, it's possible that his death might have thrown even more confusion in this giant hoopla and nobody had the chance to speak up and urge the JSDF and gov. remnants to fight on.
...And perhaps the war was even over before the government could have elected someone. To me, it looks like Britannia blitzed through Japan and pretty much got control of it in a few days' span...giving little time to reorganize and counterattack.

[evil|plushie]

More imptly, how did no one figure out Suzaku did it? Or did they and thats the reason they cast him out of the family? Might be why he felt he had no choice but to join the brits.

It's kinda disturbing that Suzakus first impulse was to kill his dad though.

And dammit, there goes my Milly x Lelouch dreams.... ah well, there's always fanfiction.

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by evil|plushie

More imptly, how did no one figure out Suzaku did it? Or did they and thats the reason they cast him out of the family? Might be why he felt he had no choice but to join the brits.

It's kinda disturbing that Suzakus first impulse was to kill his dad though.

And dammit, there goes my Milly x Lelouch dreams.... ah well, there's always fanfiction.

Well... That's what I don't get as well. It is obvious that Suzaku's actions back then was not public knowledge.
There is a good chance that everything was blamed on a Britannian plot, and that this is the scenario Sunrise is using. If your nation is at (or on the verge of) war with a dangerous and powerful nation, and your leader is assassinated, you wouldn't normally think the leader's son is responsible.

In fact, this might be why Suzaku is so guilt-ridden; he might have been the only one to know he killed his father!!! That's the worst guilt of all!
If true, this can explain a lot of things. Perhaps he is putting up a "hero of Justice" facade as an attempt to hide the shame. After all, is it not cowardice to let the Britannians take the blame for what he had done?

(The more I think about it, the more I believe Suzaku is carrying this secret alone. And something like that can really drive a man crazy. Or in the case of Suzaku, so impossibly sane that it met insanity coming the other way.)

[aohige]

Originally Posted by evil|plushie

More imptly, how did no one figure out Suzaku did it? Or did they and thats the reason they cast him out of the family? Might be why he felt he had no choice but to join the brits.

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

Well... That's what I don't get as well. It is obvious that Suzaku's actions back then was not public knowledge.
There is a good chance that everything was blamed on a Britannian plot, and that this is the scenario Sunrise is using. If your nation is at (or on the verge of) war with a dangerous and powerful nation, and your leader is assassinated, you wouldn't normally think the leader's son is responsible.

Well, that's not what the episode said.

Spoiler:

Mao said "Aren't you glad it didn't become known? It's because all the adults around you lied about it."
As far as the public is concerned, they are told (by the adults protecting Suzaku) that the PM commited suicide.

It's not clear if the adults who lied to the public knew it was Suzaku that killed him, or if they thought it was by an unknown assassin.
But from the context, it seems to imply there were adults who knew what happened, but lied to protect Suzaku. (Or to simply keep this information from the public, for political sake)

[Shiroth]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

(The more I think about it, the more I believe Suzaku is carrying this secret alone. And something like that can really drive a man crazy. Or in the case of Suzaku, so impossibly sane that it met insanity coming the other way.)

Just look at the state he was in after the mind Hax by C.C. a few episodes ago. He must have made himself forget that incident, 'cause ever since that - when his father has been mentioned, you can see one hell of a strange look of Suzaku's face. It was a great idea to have Mao bring it up (probably the only way it could have been done), and just out of nowhere as well, genius.

[kira-sama]

so if they (adult) keep the secret that suzaku kill his father
it means suzaku must work for them forever???
if suzaku in very young age know that kill his father the war will stop "i think he's genius but in logical young children cannot think further like that"

and i want to ask why mao know suzaku past???

[KiNA]

... Mao's geass ability is to read people's mind >.>

[Mgz]

Originally Posted by SoldierOfDarkness

Looks like I was right about Suzaku's past,


But man, Suzaku's skills are uber, there's no way he can be human....that or the Britannian Empire genetically enhances their soldiers or he is the one

druggy imo

Originally Posted by kira-sama

and i want to ask why mao know suzaku past???

Welcome to Code Geass >.>

[quina]

But from the context, it seems to imply there were adults who knew what happened, but lied to protect Suzaku. (Or to simply keep this information from the public, for political sake)

why does Sayoko suddenly pop up in my mind? What was her before she becomes Asford's maid?

[SoldierOfDarkness]

Originally Posted by Vallen Chaos Valiant

But it's different here than in WWII. Back then, the only reason they would fight to the death, would be for pride. There would be consequences for losing the war, sure, but nothing unacceptable.

In the case of the Code Geass universe, they were about to be conquered and be treated like a number. The former-Japanese knew this because there are ten other countries before them who had fallen and subjected to such a fate.

I don't know if I have read your idea right, SolderOfDarkness...
Britannia have the right to conquer the entire planet. Since they have the most powerful army, every other nation should go on their knees and submit to their Britannian overlords right now, or they are labeled as bloodthirsty warmongers...
While Britannians are not responsible for anything because they wouldn't have need to kill anyone if the victims hadn't, you know, resisted enslavement?

So all the 11s who were killed by Britannia in the invasion were really only committing suicide rather than fighting for freedom?

...Actually, I don't think that's what you mean, but I am sure that's what Suzaku believe. Which is why I really would hit him over the head with a blunt object if he was a 3D real person and, you know, not so superhuman.

Yes actually I was pointing out from his POV.

But you expect a 9yr old to understand all of that? The 'big picture'? Can you also tell every women and child to fight and die to the last one so the other countries can survive?

EDIT:
Just to clarify: The reason why I believe the Code Geass Japan had the right to resist for as long as it can rather than surrender , even when they know they can't win, is simple.
Britannia is an aggressive scourge. It isn't the moral issue of not just go down on your knees and pray when someone is trying to kill you; there are other countries in the world to consider. The longer Japan holds out against Brittania, the longer time it would take before Britannia can conquer somewhere-else. Further, Japan had the world's greatest source of Sakuradite. The fall and colonisation of Japan would have dramatically improves Britannia's military capabilities and thus, once again, put other free nations in greater peril.

Well we know Japan wasn't any better than Britannia as Japan oppressed other countries through economic control and Kurgurri had a lot of things going in the back with the shadow support of Kirihia so Japan was defintely not a beacon of light and hope in the world. If I read episode 1 correctly, the conflict was created by Japan so Britannia simply retaliated.
So why would the japanese give a crap about hurting britannia as much as possible just to buy the Chinese a 'little' more time? Especially when the Britannians were literally steamrolling over them.

[aohige]

Originally Posted by quina

why does Sayoko suddenly pop up in my mind? What was her before she becomes Asford's maid?

She had pink hair, weild a death-scythe, and was a bodyguard of another wheelchaired girl,
that ran a public school.

[cf18]

I suspect that Suzaku's action was more about trying to protect Lulu and Nunnally. Remember they are suppose to be hostages, and that incident may happens right before the invasion. Suzaku may believe his father will give order to execute the hostages given his hardline stance.

[blablablub.]

I doubt that since Kurigi knew that they would'nt have invaded Japan if they cared about the safty of Nunnaly and Lulu, i mean there were hostages send by the invaders.
Probably to suggest something like safty, but its obviously that Britania or better to say the higher ups didnt care so much about them.
So what good would the killing of those two bring Kurugi?
And besides as said in ep 15 on Kurugis grave he commited suicide when they were about to install the fight to the bitter end strategy, so i guess the war was allready going on.

[ashlay]

Originally Posted by cf18

I suspect that Suzaku's action was more about trying to protect Lulu and Nunnally. Remember they are suppose to be hostages, and that incident may happens right before the invasion. Suzaku may believe his father will give order to execute the hostages given his hardline stance.

maybe. not like it really matters, since regardless of whether he wanted to protect Lelouch+Nanally, or just the Japanese as a whole, or both, the outcome was the same, as was the emotional scaring.

[SoldierOfDarkness]

Originally Posted by ashlay

maybe. not like it really matters, since regardless of whether he wanted to protect Lelouch+Nanally, or just the Japanese as a whole, or both, the outcome was the same, as was the emotional scaring.

I think he just wanted to stop the killing. *Points at episode 1* If the fighting stops, the killing stops.

Defintely the reason for why he's a soldier, what better way to die than on the battlefield? In his mind I believe he shouldn't even go anywhere near joining the resistance forces and why he's willing to just use himself as a shield for others *episode 1 where the capsule opens and Suzaku rams his mask into Lelouch's mouth in order to protect him* He just won't hesistate which is why people are surprised. It may even be a subconscious thought.

so if they (adult) keep the secret that suzaku kill his father
it means suzaku must work for them forever???
if suzaku in very young age know that kill his father the war will stop "i think he's genius but in logical young children cannot think further like that"

Now that I think about it, didn't the JLF stated that the public knew nothing of Suzaku until after the war?

[etothex]

Originally Posted by SoldierOfDarkness

Now that I think about it, didn't the JLF stated that the public knew nothing of Suzaku until after the war?

Yes, I had always wondered about that bit too. Called him a posthumous child. How exactly does a prime minister hide the fact that he has children?

But about Mao reading father-killer from Suzaku, I don't really think that Mao went through the trouble of going deep into Suzaku's mind, considering the situation, so that means the thoughts were probably pretty near the surface (He had to be at least 10 years old btw, war ended 7 years ago). My god, does he sit there and dwell on that every single moment? Do we have any clues yet as to how long he has been in the army? I'm curious as to if he ran away almost immediately after, or if it took him awhile to "break" and form his new britannian-justice-dog identity, or if the Kururugi household held him there.

Like the aftermath of ep 11, I too rather dislike the quick recovery he makes from being mind-raped. But I guess that's how he deals with it.

Cornelia talking about cleaning up Area 11 for the 3 lost siblings kind of seems flawed to me. Lelouch and Nunnally would have been fine, if Britannia didn't invade.

[JarOfMayo]

Originally Posted by evil|plushie

...
And seriously, since when did a PM dying have so much influence over the war? Shouldn't the vice-PM have stepped in or something?

No such thing as a Vice-PM. The elected "Diet" choses (by vote) from its membership the PM, who then appoints his cabinet (etc). If a PM dies or becomes disabled (like the one who had a stroke and couldn't continue to serve in the late 90s) a new one is chosen.

About the covering up and such. It is very possible that people close to Kurugi did not always share his enthusiam for guerilla war and among themselves chose to cover the incident up as... it would be a strange shock for the resistance and people for the defiant PM to be killed by his own son. Without the guidance of the PM perhaps those close politicians and leaders thought it wouldn't be possible to maintain a resistance especially considering how the PM died. In either case "by suicide" or "by his own son" makes a strange/uncomfortable backdrop to start/continue a guerilla war.

In old jidai-ga series/Dramas often times the death of the leader, the lord in the castle, elder, etc... usually meant the end of hostilies...

With their castle burning around them the lord is given his death or a choice to take his own life. Perhaps to some of the leaders of the resistance the "suicide" of Kurugi meant the same thing: That they were only in the burning castle, unable to stop the inevitable.

[Ansa]

Originally Posted by etothex

Cornelia talking about cleaning up Area 11 for the 3 lost siblings kind of seems flawed to me. Lelouch and Nunnally would have been fine, if Britannia didn't invade.

Yeah but who knows really what those kids are told, Honestly I wouldn't be surprised if Lulu's father lied and said that Japan killed them as a pretext to invade.

[seraphon]

Originally Posted by Majek

No you hate him because you want to and all you do is look for more reason that you then interpret wiht your infailable logic and then brag about it.

quite the weird post......
I said that I hate him and that he deserved it. So of course I hate him because I want to..... man....... you love suzaku too much, and try to stop using such heavy and stupid irony in your post because you are doing nothing by doing so.

I m open to discussions and debate but try saying something else than "you are wrong (and stupid?)"