Character Discussion - Kallen

[Nogitsune]

I agree with some more general points sky makes there (like that Lelouch's feelings for Kallen were probably borderline romantic); however, I don't think that if Lelouch had said "you're a very dear friend to me" instead of "I love you", Kallen would have answered: "Ah, that's nice. You can go screw yourself now, though. Nice meeting you!" and waved him goodbye.
Lelouch wanted her to think she was nothing more than a pawn to him, and that he himself had become a complete monster. To get that result from Nunally, he lied to her. To get it with Kallen, he stayed quiet (he could have lied there, too, though - I agree with that). He clearly cared for both of them, but to me, what he said or didn't say there doesn't prove romantic feelings.

[bladeofdarkness]

keep in mind
he didnt even say "im sorry, i dont feel the same way" after the kiss
that would have been a GREAT way to break her heart rather then wait and say nothing

P.S
nice to hear Loli's twiin again
even if by proxy

[Kid Ying]

Originally Posted by SonOfHeaven

Speaking of which. I heard from one of my friends that the Zero Requiem special edition Blu-ray which comes out in July is suppose to have new dubbed parts for the show. I hope it turns out true.

Wow, if that turn out to be real, i think this is gonna be my birthday present to myself. But, to be honest, i really doubt that the gumline will ever appear outside of our hearts, hehe.

[Frostfire]

Originally Posted by Nogitsune

I agree with some more general points sky makes there (like that Lelouch's feelings for Kallen were probably borderline romantic); however, I don't think that if Lelouch had said "you're a very dear friend to me" instead of "I love you", Kallen would have answered: "Ah, that's nice. You can go screw yourself now, though. Nice meeting you!" and waved him goodbye.
Lelouch wanted her to think she was nothing more than a pawn to him, and that he himself had become a complete monster. To get that result from Nunally, he lied to her. To get it with Kallen, he stayed quiet (he could have lied there, too, though - I agree with that). He clearly cared for both of them, but to me, what he said or didn't say there doesn't prove romantic feelings.

It's impossible to prove that the sun exists to someone who's blind/keep's their eyes closed, and yet it does.

Originally Posted by Kid Ying

Wow, if that turn out to be real, i think this is gonna be my birthday present to myself. But, to be honest, i really doubt that the gumline will ever appear outside of our hearts, hehe.

To the best of my understanding, the bonus for ZR box set or w/e, is something like PDs for the past during the 1 year time skip, or something a long those lines. I doubt they actually animated anything else.

[Nogitsune]

Originally Posted by Frostfire

It's impossible to prove that the sun exists to someone who's blind/keep's their eyes closed, and yet it does.

Nope. If they believe in God, and God comes down to clearly tell them that the sun indeed does exist, they will literally see the light.

But I understand now. Like most peasants, I am simply too dumb to understand the subtle canonness that is Kalulu.
And whenever I read a line like yours here, I'm glad I'm not part of the all-knowing and all-seeing elite. I always was a humble person.
...As humble as Clovis if you tell him he is a very charming, incredibly attractive almost fairy tale prince as well as the most skilled artist you have ever encountered.

[bladeofdarkness]

there are none so dumb as those who would not see

[Nogitsune]

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

there are none so dumb as those who would not see

Poor Nunally.

[bladeofdarkness]

not what i ment ...
damn, now i feel bad

[Nogitsune]

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

not what i ment ...
damn, now i feel bad

Oh, you will feel bad... if Lelouch ever happens to come down from the world of C to take a look at harmless online forums.
I will be hiding.

[Frostfire]

Originally Posted by Nogitsune

Nope. If they believe in God, and God comes down to clearly tell them that the sun indeed does exist, they will literally see the light.

But I understand now. Like most peasants, I am simply too dumb to understand the subtle canonness that is Kalulu.
And whenever I read a line like yours here, I'm glad I'm not part of the all-knowing and all-seeing elite. I always was a humble person.
...As humble as Clovis if you tell him he is a very charming, incredibly attractive almost fairy tale prince as well as the most skilled artist you have ever encountered.

That comment had nothing to do with the discussion, more about the last line of what you said. You were in affect using strawman, you're ignoring a fundamental error in the "He lied to Nunally to achieve it, didn't for Kallen." The fundamental error, which you've been repeating several times now, is that silence does not guarantee nor does it accomplish anything. He guaranteed Nunally's allegiance by lying to her, he did not guarantee what Kallen would do because he did nothing. He did, in fact, the opposite with Kallen by even taking her around the "long way". If he had just continued on his way, there is no chance for Kallen to join him or risk her life. In affect, the entire detour is meaningless if his intent was to just "guarantee where she belonged" and there are other reasons for his actions.

A large portion of the discussion that has been at hand was about the difference in how he treated Nunally, his sister and important person, and how he treated Kallen. You can't just dismiss that with "they were different, shows nothing". Contrast in a work of fiction is designed to make a point and to show difference of character. It doesn't say didly squat about "he loves her/does not", that's something you argue with everything on the table. Its more a discussion on the idea that Kallen has evolved in her importance. With one scene, you can't say +/- on love or not, you can say, however, that her importance became contrastable to Nunally's.

Nunally's importance and Kallen's importance became topics of contrast and how they are treated became an idea that can be comparable. Something, in this show, that could not have been done at any other point in time.

The rest of my comment, was aimed at the fact that you've repeated the same thing about thirty times now and it's getting tiresome. You're not making an argument, you're just saying over and over "doesn't show it". Pardon me, if I get tired of hearing the same comment nteenth times without a shred of critical explanation for WHY.

[Nogitsune]

Originally Posted by Frostfire

The rest of my comment, was aimed at the fact that you've repeated the same thing about thirty times now and it's getting tiresome. You're not making an argument, you're just saying over and over "doesn't show it". Pardon me, if I get tired of hearing the same comment nteenth times without a shred of critical explanation for WHY.

If I got snappy and condescending every time I get tired of something, I would forcefully keep myself from visiting online forums. Better for everyone's blood pressure.
Also, I don't remember saying that you can't really compare Nunally and Kallen there more than once or twice, because what I really meant was that you can't compare them in a way that would serve to prove romantic love, which is usually the case. I never doubted Kallen (and a few other people) had managed to become remarably close to Lelouch by the end of the show, which is also very important to his character development, not just theirs.

[Frostfire]

Originally Posted by Nogitsune

If I got snappy and condescending every time I get tired of something, I would forcefully keep myself from visiting online forums. Better for everyone's blood pressure.
Also, I don't remember saying that you can't really compare Nunally and Kallen there more than once or twice, because what I really meant was that you can't compare them in a way that would serve to prove romantic love, which is usually the case. I never doubted Kallen (and a few other people) had managed to become remarably close to Lelouch by the end of the show, which is also very important to his character development, not just theirs.

Annoyance =/= Snappy, and I am always condescending.

You've entirely missed the point I was trying to point out. I did not say that you were saying "you can't really compare Nunally and Kallen", not even once did I say any such thing. I was pointing out that your argument does not base itself on anything but "because I say so", which is where the comment about the sun comes in. In the show, it was Kallen and Nunally who were contrasted, be it in how they were treated in Turn 22 or their overlap contrast in Turn 25. There is no "(and a few other people)" there is only Kallen and Nunally being contrasted, because they were the contrast within the show. Suzaku and Lelouch vs. Nunally and Kallen, the contrast was in the episode itself. You can't just arbitralily bring in "(and a few other people)" when those other people were not present or involved or treated differently from normal.

Where the entire discussion about "love" comes in, which is a very viable point, is that Lelouch treats Kallen and Nunally uncharacteristically in contrasting ways. The girl, Nunally, he had loved the entire show vs. Kallen his more than willing follow. The concept of love is present and can be discussed within the context of the contrast, and it is a very good explanation for the actions taken. It may not be romantic love, it may be, but its more love than anything Lelouch has imparted on any other character -> who was not dying at the time. Hence the discussion around the contrast of Nunally (lelouch's live and love) vs. Kallen.

In that essence you can say that Lelouch did love Kallen and had they had a chance, they would have probably grown old together. We're not calling his love for her "I want to strip her naked and bang her here" its the type of love that shapes a person's life and easily leads into "happily ever after" territory.

[Kid Ying]

After reading every little piece of text, i think Incorrupts post(well, what would be her post) makes a lot of sense, but i don't know if Kallen would not follow him if he said she was just a friend or stuff like this. Okay, maybe it could happen, but i don't think Kallen was just looking for love at that moment, i think she was really wanting to see what Lelouch thinks and if he had showed that he cares about her as much as Suzaku, for example, maybe she would follow him in the end... Lelouch was much more important than the BK for her at that moment, so i don't know she would give the preference to them because Lelouch didn't feel the same as her, even if he still feels something.

So, in the end, i kinda agree with Nogi too, hehe.

[bladeofdarkness]

"thank you for everything you did for me kallen"
"but this is where we part"
"where i go from here, you cant follow"
"sayonara"

gets the job done quite well i should think (when you remember what he does next)

[Kid Ying]

Yeah, but it's not like this shows that he cares. It looks like she was just an acquaintance of him, hehe. We know Kallen was way more than this at least for Lelouch saying something like this in a point he simply can't lie.

And don't get me wrong, i think this scene speaks a LOT. But Kallen biggest characteristic was loyalty after all, so if Lelouch simply stated that he just love her in a platonic way, i think she would follow him until he made her the knight of -1. Even with him saying that he didn't have romantic feelings for her, i think she would be happier by his side than with the BK, fighting against a guy which cares deeply for her.

[bladeofdarkness]

Originally Posted by Kid Ying

Yeah, but it's not like this shows that he cares. It looks like she was just an acquaintance of him, hehe. We know Kallen was way more than this at least for Lelouch saying something like this in a point he simply can't lie.

exactly my point
he can just lie and say something like that if he wants
he doesnt
he cant

the scene speaks alot in what ISNT being said
in what lelouch hides
in what he could have said but didnt

[azul120]

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

Nah, Suzaku wanted to kill Zero all the way up to the appearance of Jupiter. That's why Suzaku went at Lelouch with his sword just after Charles disintegrated. That's also why Suzaku really did end up killing Euphie's murderer.

Only explanation was that Suzaku was having one of his usual one-track minded moments. If he had really wanted to kill Lelouch for that, he had plenty, and I mean plenty, of opportunities to do so beforehand, and would have never agreed to help him during their meeting at the Kururugi Shrine, which by the way Suzaku had noted Lelouch had been lying to his questions, including those regarding Euphie and Shirley.

Besides, during the one month jump in between the Ragnarok incident and the throne takeover, Suzaku and Lelouch were once again good friends, to the point where Suzaku infact objected to the idea of Zero Requiem at first.

[Kid Ying]

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

exactly my point
he can just lie and say something like that if he wants
he doesnt
he cant

the scene speaks alot in what ISNT being said
in what lelouch hides
in what he could have said but didnt

But we all know that, hehe. Lelouch asking for the detour to get some more time with her, clearly unhappy because of the treatment he's giving to Kallen and the sayonara at the end... It's all really touching.

And Lelouch knew Kallen. It's not like he only saw her sometime here and there, they fought together for a lot of time, Lelouch knew what would make Kallen angrier, sadder, happier and so on, but instead, he didn't said nothing at all to get any reaction of her. Why? It's not like he can't come up with some stuff. The "live on" was veeery strong, but he can deal. But no, he keep quiet. And that silence speaks a lot, brother.

[morbosfist]

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

Okay, but look at the context of the episode. Britannia is reformed, wants to join the UFN, and Kallen comes happily skipping along to be Lelouch's guide for the meeting. She believes this is the real Lelouch, someone with good intentions, and wants to help him. Then it turns out Lelouch is actually some dictator asshole who wants to talk over the world, and Kallen immediately decides 'I'll stop him'. All Lelouch did was not talk to her for a bit (hey he even kissed back according to you Kalulu fans) and that's Kallen's reaction to his actions. Do you really think Kallen could have understood 'destroy and recreate everything'? His resignation to destroy even himself? That's kinda the opposite of love, y'know: Zero Requiem was all about Lelouch's denial of love, not an affirmation of it.

An odd way to put it. First, she pretty much knew the whole deal wasn't on the level. She just didn't care, because she assumed he had good reason for whatever he was doing. That's what she tried and failed to get out of him. Then he turns into a complete bastard and she really has no choice but to believe that the whole thing is just some game to him. She can't be so arrogant as to assume he's still doing it for a greater good and sit it out.

Kallen understood the plan at the end, so she could just as easily understand it before then. Also, it wasn't a denial of love. Denial of life might actually be more appropriate, but in any case the point was to make everyone else happy. He excluded Kallen because he, dare I say it, loved her/cared too much to ruin her life.

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

Okay, so you're talking about stuff Lelouch knows, but do you actually have any proof showing he's scared of it? Alright, so maybe (maybe) he's scared of fleia, and quite appreciated having Nina to counter it, but do you have equivalent evidence for the Black Knights and Kallen?

He knows how dangerous Kallen is, and is well aware of the capabilities of his former army. He just had a way to dispatch most of them if need be.

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

I dunno what Lelouch would have done had Nina refused. Maybe he would have Geassed her, maybe not; the only one of the Ashford crowd Lelouch Geassed for his own benefit was Nunally, and that was because he presumed he was qualified to make a decision for her. I don't know if that would have held for Nina. Anyway, if you're saying Lelouch was willing to do all this, what makes you think Kallen was an exception? You honestly think Kallen somehow became more important to him than even Nunally, and on what basis, sex appeal? If loyalty is Kallen's greatest asset to Lelouch, then what differentiates her from Jeremiah or Sayoko? What exactly made Kallen worth so much to him?

Nunnally was gone at that point, so at the time she was more important to him. Lelouch uses everyone he can get his hands on, but he spares Kallen because he wants her to be happy. I'd say this makes her an exception.

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

I wasn't asking if Lelouch knew what Kallen was thinking and feeling, since that was obvious. I was asking if he also knew that what he wanted (i.e. a new world) and what she wanted (i.e. a new world? Or Lelouch?) would coincide.

They have similar desires, and Lelouch knows this.

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

You know, I'm not sure Lelouch ever saw a chance, or made a choice. I think Lelouch took it as a given that it would only be the supporters of Lelouch vi Britannia who stood with him.

But you know, I don't really see how this has anything to do with what I said originally. Lelouch was willing to destroy everything, even Nunally, for his new world. Of course he wouldn't do it unless he had to, but he was nonetheless willing: Lelouch was altogether too familiar with the feeling of losing precious things; one more wouldn't hurt him. If Lelouch really saw a risk, and he really believed in it, why do you think he wouldn't take action to eliminate it? Why do you think he wouldn't be willing to inflict a little destruction, smother his feelings, become evil to destroy evil, etc. etc. to accomplish what he needed to? That's what his whole character was about, after all.

Then why wouldn't he do it right there? Why wait at all? He had lost Nunnally at that point, and aside from those already with him Kallen was all he really had left. Why make her an enemy when he can make her an ally? It's clear she wanted to stay by his side. He made Kallen a risk to the plan, and even keeps Suzaku away from her mid-battle. For a man that had lost so much, losing more was just unacceptable.

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

What exactly do you mean by 'everyone'? Kallen was known to the OotBK, and likely other military factions (Britannia, China, nobody else really significant). However, by Zero:R's end, pretty much everybody follows Zero. You don't think Zero's influence, as well as Kallen's connections within the OotBK, would have been enough to get her a pardon? Hell, in the final episode, anyone important has a half-clue what's going on anyway. You honestly don't think that Zero and the Black Knights, what might be considered the emergant backbone of the entire world, couldn't protect her?
Also, lol, don't make me spell everything out for you. I said Lelouch could make Kallen sit out with any number of excuses. Maybe here's one: Guren malfunctioned. Here's another: Kallen was abducted. Here's another: Lelouch sent the Black Knights a cryptic note that is apparently addressed to Kallen and thus puts suspicion on her. Kallen denies everything, but she's put under watch and is not immediately given permission to launch during the battle. Then, just as they decide to let her launch, Suzaku, using the lack of opposition, destroys the ship's hatch area. Blah blah blah, etc.

I haven't even thrown in the most obvious solutions of Kallen throwing the fight or simply scripting everything out exactly as it actually happened. Kallen supporting Lelouch doesn't necessarily demand revealing her as a traitor at all. Whether or not Lelouch could have used Kallen on his side has nothing to do with her happiness.

All of those scenarios would entail some sort of risk to her, moreso than there was already at any rate. Making her an enemy guaranteed that they wouldn't seek retribution, which they likely would have given that most of the Black Knights did not get the whole point of the show.

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

Yes, and? All that proves is that Lelouch cares enough to save Kallen's life. It doesn't prove that Lelouch is willing to risk his own to do it, however, except under extreme circumstances (such as knowing he can't save himself).

Later events do show he is willing to risk his plan for her sake.

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

Even if Kallen's mother weren't a vegetable for 20 years, they still could have gone in hiding together. If Kallen's dream was merely to live in peace with her, I don't see a problem with picking oranges.

Maybe Lelouch figured it would be somewhat bitter to be separated from all her friends, even if they did try to kill her.

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

Is this explicitly stated (honest question)?
Charge Damocles with the ship and explode kamikaze style? Kill everybody on board? Sure, I can believe the ship was meant to be used as a weapon, but that doesn't necessarily mean everybody dies. I think even if the ship had charged Damocles Lloyd and co. could still have claimed 'they forced us to do it' and been excused.

I don't think it is stated, but he hadn't planned for the Black Knights to get on-board. He just changed the plan as needed.

[SonOfHeaven]

What's that little bit I read about Kallen's scene during turn 22 being fanservice? When the climax of her development toward Lelouch was leading up to that moment. Especially when we all knew that Lelouch and Kallen would speak again given turn 21 what Kallen said herself. Even the staff mentioned that scene was the highlight of turn 22 if I remember correctly. All those subtle instances being there. It was an great scene. Who knows maybe Lelouch did want to speak to Kallen since he was the first one who said something about Ashford bring back memories. Add the fact that Lelouch was hiding his true feelings(confirmed) and come to your own conclusions.

Kallen was devoted to Lelouch. I thought turn 19 confirmed that. She was willing to forsake everything(Brother's dream and an future with her mother) to die with Lelouch not Zero. It was nice to have her poem even confirm that she became devoted to Lelouch over the course of the series.

She was also important to Lelouch. Just look at turn 19. Nunnally was at this point gone and when Kallen showed up he was seemingly fine. He also seemed like he was ready to be Zero once again until the betrayal of course. Even cleared up the misunderstanding about what she heard about Lelouch/C.C. The Lelouch in the past probably would have teased her about that. I believe he only teased Kallen. I could be mistaken.

I'm not going to get into whetner or not Kallen would follow Lelouch if he just said he cared for her. Since that just depends on someone's opinion entirely(Makes for some fanfic's). I'll just go by her poem personally. Which to myself makes alot of sense given his silence and why he stayed silent.

Lelouch wanted Kallen to have an future(Lelouch's little wish line). It was very important for Lelouch himself. I thought his actions during turn 22 established that. He knew what he had to do in order to not get Kallen to side with him and in my opinion not lie so he wouldn't hurt her feelings once again. Stay silent so he couldn't give anything away. Given Kallen realized everything just by seeing Zero at turn 25. I suppose Lelouch knew what he was doing. He wanted at the end Kallen and Nunnally to hate him. Which happened and both of them at the very end realized everything and loved him still(I still don't buy Nunnally's uber power of her hand ).

@Frost: So the new material for the Zero Requiem Blu-Ray is going to be for the 1 year timeskip between S1 and R2. That kind of boring to me since Lelouch was geassed. I guess the Kallen's gum line and even Lelouch's little wish will never be heard(It was in quotes in Kallen's profile as if Lelouch said that. Doesn't mean anything though)