2009-01-21, 20:39
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Link #241 | ||
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Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2006
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The city is at stake. The match here was in preparation for the city v. city fight, and the outcome of this battle determines each team's tactical position for the real battle. That matters a LOT. Sure, it's one step removed from having the city on the line, but that doesn't make this battle any less serious. It's certainly not a "game" or something that's "okay if [he] just loses". It's exactly that kind of attitude that make armies decadent. Although Nina was at fault for many things, taking the "game" seriously was not one of them. He's letting his team down, he's letting the entire city down, he's letting himself down. At the point when he's in battle, it doesn't matter that he was forced there, or that he didn't have a choice or didn't want to be there. He has no real allegiance to the city, but the point is that he is *already* there, and unless he really has no interest in seeing the city survive, he has an obligation to people other than himself to at least put in some effort. The way I see it, if you're living in a post-apocalyptic world where the survival of your city depends on results, you don't have the luxury of "just losing" in the semi-finals before you get to the finals. Finally, consider that in the next real battle, real lives will be at stake, and it matters strongly that you have people you trust in their best positions covering your back. And if he really feels that strongly that he doesn't want to participate, then he should take a stand, however misguided, and be clear about it. This would at least open up the space for someone who is willing, even if not able, to participate, instead of dragging his team down by pretending to suck. Quote:
He would've still gotten the flag, whereas Nina would've gotten away with some flesh wounds she probably would have happily borne because they had "won". At the same time, he wouldn't have had to show off his powers, so it's not like Felli could accuse him of putting in his best effort. He wouldn't have given the Martial Art head guy any reason to believe he had a lot of power either, so they wouldn't have been put in a super-important position in the real battle (barring interference from the President). It would have been a win-win situation for him (although presumably a lose-lose situation for the city)... Last edited by taelrak; 2009-01-21 at 20:50. |
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2009-01-21, 21:11
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Link #242 | |
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Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2004
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Phase 1 When the match, the 2 of the 16th platoon already attacking Nina while one is keeping Layfon at bat. The situation where he should've run into the flag won't happen if he was still in the aforementioned mindset, because if he did it would've resulted him bringing the full display of his combat-prowess, exposing him to the team. Phase 2 Layfon got hammered and thrown out off a cliff, using his powers he should've stealthly run into the flag without any problem. Again this wont' happen, why? 1. Because he still had the mindset for acting normal and presumably looses if that's the case. 2. He still thought that Nina would somehow be okay while receiving all the blow. Phase 3 The critical moment, Felli's transmission, when Layfon realizes that Nina is getting beaten more that she could handle, he practically abandoned his normal mindset, unleashing his powers to save Nina with beating up 3 of 16th platoon squad including their captain as a result, and then capture the flag. He alone won a crushing victory by beating the captain and capturing the flag, whereas the 17th platoon suppossed have only fulfill one of the tasks to win. My point, the run through the flag un-noticed is difficult to obtained with the obstacles above, that being the mindset, and where the 16th platoon keep him at bay. |
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2009-01-21, 21:25
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Link #243 | |
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Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2006
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I gave only one example of what he could have done given the information available to him. There were any number of alternative paths he could have picked that would have given him the best of ALL worlds in the short term (i.e. without revealing his powers, without alienating Felli and Nina, without being manipulated further by the President) before, during and after each of the points you raised above. That's partly why I find him so unsympathetic as a character. |
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2009-01-21, 21:30
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Link #244 |
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ლ(́◉◞౪◟ ◉ ლ )
Join Date: Jul 2007
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Wait what with all this blames and hatred towards Layfon?
Spoiler for Might be a spoiler...who knows..:
Now think of this.Why Layfon,whom Callian knew to have such great power and strength,was put under Nina's platoon,whom other platoon regarded to as the weakest platoon of all?He could just place Layfon under a better platoon instead of putting him in the weakest platoon...by putting him in the weakest platoon,Layfon will have no choice but to involve more into fights.This was all under a part of Callian's plan to make Layfon as a warrior of Zuellni.Note that Callian not only did this to Layfon but also his sister too Fairy,but Fairy didn't bother that. The mock battle of group 16 and 17 was nothing more but another plan to reveal Layfon's potential to the crowd and students.Callian knew that the only way for group 17 to win this match is by relying fully on the strength of Layfon.And his plan was a success. None of this were known to Layfon...the only thing played on his mind was why did he have to fight again.He didn't plan to join the Military Arts,didn't plan to hold a sword or weapon,and didn't plan to use his power.He only wanted to live a new life in Zuellni,but in the end,he was forced to fight again. Now during the mock battle with group 16,as mentioned by Taelrak That's why he should have just run for the flag after climbing up the cliff when everyone was focused on Nina. The other team didn't have someone keeping track of their positions like Felli. Spoiler for My reply to it..:
Well i guess in the first few episodes,we might have to bear abit with Layfon's tight situation.But sooner or later,he will start to understand his responsibility as a member of platoon 17. |
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2009-01-21, 21:43
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Link #246 |
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ლ(́◉◞౪◟ ◉ ლ )
Join Date: Jul 2007
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Ah i see,my mistake there..but still don't you think the whole battle favors platoon 16 more than platoon 17?With platoon 17 being on the attacking side,Callian could see and observe Layfon's offensive power more than if Layfon was on the defending side.With all the burdens on Layfon's shoulder,Callian expected that Layfon has no other choice but use his power to defeat group 16...and yes,he was right.
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2009-01-21, 21:46
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Link #247 | |
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Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2006
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As for the battle itself, Platoon 16 only had to defend, so there was no danger of them getting Reyfon's flag. That itself is a major advantage for Platoon 17. I mean really, in capture the flag, the biggest hurdle is that you have to defend your own flag while getting the other side's. After that, it's to draw away the defense of the other side. Here, you 1) dont have to protect your own flag, AND 2) the opposing force's defense left his flag! AND 3) you don't even need to bring the flag back to your own base! You just have to grab it... Under those conditions, how can the attacking side possibly lose? Every single member of Platoon 17 could have run for the flag when that other team's captain left it, and it would just be a race to see who gets a hand on it first (and would likely have won due to the element of surprise). There wouldn't even be combat involved at that point. Nina's original plan of being the decoy was hopelessly naive, as of course anyone defending would watch out for that. As you say, the other team isn't stupid. However, it wasn't her plan that was a problem, it was the timing of it. Obviously no one would fall for such a ploy right away (even though Platoon 16 did to some extent...for some reason), but the point is when this plan is executed at a time when the other team is relaxed, thinking they're on the verge of victory, they're easily thrown into disorganization. Consider that the only reserves Platoon 16 had that we saw was the captain in front of the flag, who rather idiotically decided to jump into the fray for some reason. As soon as he did that, all attention was focused on Nina. Consider also that we see no sign of any coordination or communication between them in battle. Platoon 17 had 1 sniper that was never attacked for the duration of the battle, and Felli was also ignored (not to mention the mechanic). While presumably, Felli was "finding the location of the enemies", we can see that the actual combat took place in a single localized area since that one guy moved back and forth between Reyfon and Nina. In other words, for a large part of the battle, the entire opposing team was focused on Nina exclusively. During this time, Felli, Reyfon, Sniper guy, Mechanic, etc all could have made a beeline for the flag. Note also that this would also have the effect of splitting Platoon 16's forces in some way, since Nina was actually tying them down to some extent. What better time to snipe off people when they disengage from combat to chase after another team member? EDIT: I mean, I know this is indulging in a lot of what-ifs, but seriously. When you're playing capture the flag with such one-sided conditions, he's gotta be able to come up with something better than "I'll stand here and let them whack on me until I freak out from seeing my teammate get beat up"... ... ... Last edited by taelrak; 2009-01-21 at 21:58. |
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2009-01-21, 21:58
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Link #248 |
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ლ(́◉◞౪◟ ◉ ლ )
Join Date: Jul 2007
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I believe in that battle,the "flag" for platoon 17 was Nina herself.Defeat her,and the battle is over.Remember when platoon 16 leader start bashing non stop towards Nina,and the one monitoring the match said something like "start the countdown"?I think they're counting the time before platoon 17 is officially declared as a loser of the battle.Platoon 16 leader's reason to focus on her was because,it was the simplest and easiest way to eliminate platoon 17.Now why was the rule was made in such way?
Simple...because at the current Layfon before using his power,it would be an obvious fall of Nina first under platoon 16's leader before Layfon could reach his hand on the flag.I don't think Callian allowed the flag to be "touched" by means of shooting it from range,meaning that platoon 17's sniper couldn't shoot the flag to bring it down.The mechanic as i know is not on the military units (see here),and has 0 experience in fighting.So he can't do anything except repairing the weapons.The only combatants that group 17 had were Nina and Layfon.The problem with this 2 was,one has a self centered attitude and high pride,while another one act goofy for the sake of hiding his power.Against a capable team like platoon 16,there's just no way for them to win the match. All this were under Callian's calculation.All this disadvantages that platoon 17 can only be fixed IF Layfon uses his power.That is the one and only way for platoon 17 to win the match...no other way around it i believe. |
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2009-01-21, 22:09
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Link #249 | |
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Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2006
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The captain didn't appear before Nina until after Reifon fell from the cliff. In the time following, Reyfon had time to climb all the way back up, hide under the bushes for a while, and THEN the head martial guy started the countdown to 30. Also, it was the head martial guy who gave the countdown order, not the president, who in fact had wanted to wait longer to give more pressure to Reyfon. In fact, the countdown was against the President's wishes, since if the countdown ended sooner, the other captain would stop attacking and Reyfon wouldn't feel compelled to save Nina. You're giving way too much credit to the President. While this may have been his plan, it's a rather inept one. I don't see this as a situation where Refyon *had* to release his powers because the President manipulated him to do so. It's a miracle the President's plan worked at all in light of the alternative paths to victory, and the other obstacles that almost occurred (i.e. Reyfon not seeing Nina beaten unless he decided to climb back up, countdown starting sooner, etc.). I seriously can't believe that someone with hardened battle experience would let himself be backed into such an obvious corner when there were so many other ways out of the President's manipulations. I'm not saying Reyfon has to be omniscient, but Felli actually *told* him of the President's plan. I see this really as a weakness in the plot and a suspension of disbelief. It's one thing if we're talking about some green newcomer coming to his first battle. This is someone who's been in actual combat, had real fighting experience, and should have at least an elementary grasp of tactics and people. It would be different if the conditions were more even of course, but when the game is stacked so the attacking team almost has to win under those rules, I really don't see any excuse for Reyfon to have been driven into this rather "desperate" route. |
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2009-01-21, 22:22
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Link #250 | |
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Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2004
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If Layfon can magically knows the combat situation with 'helicopter view' like Felli he would probably can, but he couldn't. |
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2009-01-21, 22:32
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Link #251 | |
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Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2006
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He didn't even have to do anything himself. He could've just been like ..hey sniper guy...get off the tree and take a walk towards that undefended flag since no one's paying attention to you anyway... If this were in any other situation, I'd agree with you but....c'mon....capture the flag in those conditions? |
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2009-01-21, 23:13
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Link #252 |
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ლ(́◉◞౪◟ ◉ ლ )
Join Date: Jul 2007
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Its like what TrueKnight said..being an experienced fighter doesn't mean Layfon is capable of defeating a powerful opponent without releasing his own power.Strategies are useless especially if the opponent could do a range attack that could blow any members of platoon 17 away.The sniper was not like Nina and Layfon,a melee fighter with capability of using skills that requires power.And most likely he would be killed or badly injured in case someone from platoon 16 strikes him with a powerful blow,either from near or melee.What other strategy that could work against a platoon that already goes at full strength and power anyway..
Beside seeing Layfon's true nature...i think he is probably similar to young Son Goku from Dragonball.Strong and powerful,but with limited knowledge and innocency,to the point where everyone could manipulate him easily even without using any strength and power. In the hope for new life,Layfon no longer thought about fighting...but being a normal person makes himself looks goofy,becoz his nature of fighting when he was young,so when trying to adapt himself to an entirely different life,he couldn't do it properly like other ppl.He probably think that the best way to avoid fight from normal person's view is to escape and run away from it...well he may be right but that naive kind of thinking will easily drag him more to fights,especially if someone else in that city wanted him to be a fighter.And in the mock battle,i don't think his head could think of a strategy to make his platoon win,without using his power.He's just that kind of guy anyway... 
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2009-01-21, 23:30
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Link #253 | |
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Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2006
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The main weakness of Platoon 16 is exactly that they're all melee-oriented and rush head-on into battle at full strength. There would be easy pickings for a diversified team with any basic grasp of tactics. We've had no indication that the opposing team had any range power left after Nina destroyed their gun in the very first attack. Even that axe attack was at close-range - not the type of attack that's long enough to hit someone running far away. This whole "powerful" opponent thing - I mean...I just saw 4 guys running in with their only strategy being "let's beat up the other side, focusing on the leader". The goal is to capture a flag. It's not to beat up the other team. I'm not asking Reyfon to fight them or anything. I'm asking him to simply follow the order Nina gave him to the letter - i.e. when she finally got the attention of the entire other team, simply walk/jog/run/sneak to the flag and grab it. Alternatively, the other 2 completely ignored members of the team could have walked up and grabbed it. With the other team's attention focused solely on Nina, a trained monkey could have run up to the flag and grabbed it, not to mention either of the other 3 team members, who would have had a head start if they ran towards the flag... Set up a game of capture the flag, with say, one team weaker than the other. Then impose the same conditions as in the anime: the weaker team only has to get the stronger team's flag, the stronger team's flag is not defended, and the weaker team doesn't have to bring the captured flag back to base. I guarantee to you that the weaker team will win every single game in less time than it takes for the stronger team to catch and beat up the weaker team's leader. Try it. |
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2009-01-21, 23:39
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Link #254 | |
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Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2006
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1. Layfon wants to just be an average Joe. He found the only school that allows him to be an average Joe due given his background. 2. At the schoole, he sensed someone's in trouble. He's not a total jerk, and decides to save her. 3. This school he attends ends up being on the verge of bankrupcy. And he realizes that he needs to join the fighting division to keep the school alive. So he says okay because he's a nice person and realizes that it's also necessary for his own future. 4. He doesn't care to fight, so in fights where he feels that winning is not necessary, he doesn't try. He saves energy for his part-time job. 5. #3 applied both to his fight against Nina and for the first part of the mock battle. 6. #2 repeats, only this time with Nina being the person he saves. That is all. His logic is quite consistent and makes quite a bit of sense. I don't see why you would have trouble with it. Btw, the president knew his past, and therefore BSed him into going to that school majoring in "general studies" while really wanting him to be in military arts in the first place. |
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2009-01-21, 23:48
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Link #255 | |
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Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2006
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Also, the issue isn't about winning the game, but he clearly says it's okay if "I" lose right. That makes it even easier - he could stage a personal loss, but a team win, that would still have preserved the best of both worlds that he wanted to live in. I have a problem with him because his actions aren't consistent with the goals he purportedly wants. He wants to not fight. He wants to get out of the platoon. He wants to get out of the President's manipulations. He wants to remain friends with Nina, who he admires to a bit, and Felli. In other words, he wants the best of both worlds while having a normal life. Instead, his decisions are myopic and lead him exactly away from the goals he claims to want. He fails to distinguish personal loss from the team's loss, setting up the situation where he's forced to rescue a girl in distress yet again. He does not join because he thinks the city is in need - he joins because he goes along with the flow and is too weak to take a firm stand for what he wants. Each of his decisions leads him deeper into a painfully obvious and easily-avoidable plot by the President, even though he claims he hates being manipulated. He fails to follow his goal of not fighting - instead he makes a halfhearted attempt at *pretending* to be weak. He fails to even do that, but instead sets himself up into a situation where he knows or should have known he'll reveal his true powers. At every point where he can make a decision, he always picks the wrong, most short-sighted, worst possible decision. Either he's painfully myopic or just there's just a gaping plot hole here. |
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2009-01-22, 00:32
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Link #256 |
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Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2008
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To lose would have been much better than to win, to serve his purpose, right?
How do you think he would have known Ms.Loli would talk in his head again, Nina would be in that much danger, and his reflex would kick in at that moment? He was so close to his purpose: Losing. And, nope, he was already revealed as strong already. Just not THAT strong. So he can't act completely fuck up either. And that's also why a stage lose would also not help at all. I don't expect Layfon to be stupid. But don't expect him to be Mister Foresee either. When the president "invited" him to the platoon, he didn't know he was gonna be used like that. He must have thought: i would find a way to get out of this somehow. Never knew it would be so difficult. Everyday thinking. He also put up resistance. Even quite fierce, till the girls barged in. As i see, he's another typical soft protagonist that easily pushed around by girls. Then another nice girl barged in  And if you want to be technical, we don't know what happened after Nina made her request, do we? How do you know he didn't put up a fight? P/s: i don't really think we being here feel sympathy toward Layfon. More like we just laugh if off, "Oh his harem road sure is hard, to be in a situation that would make both chicks mad at him like that". Or it's just me? |
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2009-01-22, 00:49
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Link #257 | |||||
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Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2006
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Well, sort of. I was referring to the sympathy for him being in the whole predicament to begin with - no freedom of choice, manipulated, hated by 2 girls most people would kill to just get a chance to talk to (Felli's rather unapproachable in the manga), forced to fight for a city he knows nothing about, exiled, etc. etc.
But I kind of feel he deserves everything he got, and everything could have been avoided by being well...less himself... Quote:
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I would say that he's myopic. Sure he may have thought he wanted to lose, but only because he feels it brings him closer to his ultimate goal. His ultimate goal is to live a normal life. But that's a bit short-sighted - trying to lose in the contest wouldn't bring him closer to that ultimate goal. In order to do that, just losing the way he planned it wouldn't work--the President wouldn't believe it. We already know that Reylon knows that the President has an idea of his power to begin with - otherwise he wouldn't have taken the effort to force him in the first place. As a result, it's not the winning or losing that's important at all, but *how* he does either of those. To serve his ultimate purpose, it probably would have been better to either lose so badly that he takes heavy physical damage (i.e. almost to the point of death, which he wasn't willing to do), watch as his teammates get beat up to the point of death (which he also wasn't willing to do, and which the opposing team wasn't willing to do either), or use an external means of persuasion outside the contest (which he wasn't smart enough or resolute enough to do). If he's not willing to do any of these, as he's not, then it's better for him to win (not through sheer power though). By trying to stage a loss, he puts himself in a position where he can be forced to do things against his original judgment (i.e., where Nina or another teammate would be hard pressed, and he'll by pure reaction try to save her)--and of course this is exactly what happened. If he tries to find a way to win that marginalizes his powers, then he avoids the possibility of putting himself in such a situation, lowering the risk he'll defeat his *ultimate* goal. Quote:
1) He knows Nina would be in great danger. He knows it will be 4 v 1 to some extent. He will be trying to lose. Felli won't be trying her hardest. He has no knowledge of the sniper, but it's not really plausible for a single sniper to take out 4 guys engaged in close melee. He also knows the extent of her combat skills from their training round. He also should suspect that Nina won't surrender - he spent the entire night talking with her and finding out her rather stubborn personality. 2) He knows that if a girl is in great danger, he will instinctively rescue her. He just did the same thing for another girl the day before - so of course he knows this is his reaction. 3) Nina is a girl. Therefore, he knows he will be forced to rescue Nina in the contest. Quote:
Nor do I think it's really foresight to recognize that someone who identified with you on the sole basis of a common plight would be upset if you destroyed that solidarity by yourself.... Maybe there is a bit of hindsight bias here with Felli's case, since she's a bit more inscrutable than Nina...but Nina's reaction was certainly something anyone would anticipate.... ...then again, we are talking about a guy who gave away a huge pink bento thinking it was some new school food.... ... ... Quote:
We also know that he shows up the next day to tell Nina he didn't want to join the platoon, and it had all the elements of a first serious conversation. Last edited by taelrak; 2009-01-22 at 01:11. |
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2009-01-22, 01:07
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Link #258 |
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Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2008
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Hm? I think Losing would be better than winning, no? So it's common sense for a normal guy trying to go for the lose. How is it counter-effective? I don't quite get it. Also he can't fake it forever every time his team gets to battle. Losing once and for all is just an superior option.
And i didn't mean "Mister Foresee" like that. He wanted to lose. If Nina got beat up, he could lose. But, Fact is, he didn't really know Nina fighting ability, let alone comparing it to other guys. Fact is, he didn't expect others member to...you know.. be what they were. Fact is, he hoped he wouldn't instinctively act like that either. Just because Nina got beat up more than anticipated. What we were discussion wasn't the main illogical point. Suppose, If Layfon could have ever thought of all of that, should Felli who is around much longer, and seems to be more of a mind type, thought even further than that. She should have just told him what to do. Also, why was the flag so defenseless? Were there something big await Layfon if he tried to go get the flag, or another stage that the president set up after the team win (may be in the next ep this would actually come into play?) or is it just nonsensical? |
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2009-01-22, 01:33
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Link #259 | |
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Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2004
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I guess I'll quote what the previous poster said,
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2009-01-22, 01:35
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Link #260 | ||||
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Join Date: Nov 2006
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Basically a restatement of the above: 1. Reyfon knows that the President has prior knowledge of his combat abilities - he's not sure how much, but it is certainly more than the amount he displayed in the contest. 1a. This is because Reyfon knows the original fight was staged to get him to join the platoon (Felli told him), and therefore he knows the ultra-speed and power he used in that rescue was witnessed. 2. Therefore, Reyfon knows that simply displaying the weak amount of power he did in that contest would be ineffective in convincing the President to let him go. 2a. Losing won't get him kicked out of the team. Losing just means the team gets a worse position in the real battle. 2b. Therefore, the *act* of losing or winning in itself doesn't matter to him. 3. Therefore, the only way to get kicked off the team in the contest itself is to do something so extreme that would be completely out of character for him (i.e. severely injure himself or allow one of his teammates to be injured)--something so extreme that the President could in no way justify his continued presence in a platoon that might endanger the city or his teammembers. Simple bad performance isn't enough here. 4. Reyfon isn't willing to take those extreme steps described in #3. 5. If the *act* of winning or losing shouldn't matter, then it's the *process* of winning or losing that may matter. 6. The act of *trying* to lose will probably and necessarily involve more risk to his teammates than the act of *trying* to win without his powers. 7. The risks associated with *trying* to lose will be more likely to place teammates in situations where Reyfon is forced to act despite himself (i.e. to rescue Nina). This is why it's counter-effective to his ultimate goal 8. Therefore, in order to conceal his powers, it is better to avoid those greater risks. If he reveals his powers, he won't be able to get kicked off the team. 9. Therefore, *trying* to win is better than *trying* to lose because there's less risk of him being forced to use his powers. Quote:
He fought her before. He knew the general range of her combat skills, as well as how much kei she had. She might have been holding back, but she clearly stated that she would be going all out. He would have been a better judge of her true abilities as well having more experience than her, than she would have of him. "More than anticipated" - he had the information available to him to know to a near certainty that the battle would ultimately become 4 vs 1, or 3 vs 1. He had to have anticipated that she would be in substantial danger with those odds. Quote:
I fully agree Felli has a lot of shortcomings as well. In fact, my biggest objection to her is that she's just so short. I mean..wtf? She looks..stunted! And she's even wearing boots with high heels!.... ... ... ... ... ... ... Quote:
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that battle rules is squad 17 to attack 16's flag, ｓquad 16 to defend their flag/beat 17's leader.
