[Manga] Naruto Chapter 522 Discussion

[Haak]

We know plenty about Juugo and Kimimaro's relationship and it's an interesting enough relationship to wonder what will happen if they're forced to fight.

Atleast, I've always been interested in Juugo and wanted to know more about him.

[james0246]

Originally Posted by Nobodyman9

But again, why should I care about Juugo going all out when I don't even care about his character in the first place?

I never said you had to "care". Once again, I merely explained which I considered to be a more "emotional" fight (these grand statement you've made to the contrary have literally nothing to do with what I am saying). Quite honestly I'm befuddled as to why you would think "I will fight my old foe from my past and I will show how much stronger I've become by defeating him!" has more powerful emotional value than "I must face my old friend whom I deeply cared for and am reluctant to fight against, but I must also free him from his zombie prison!" (Even by your own phrasing, you make Juugo's emotional stance seem far more powerful than Lee's (which seem childish and selfish by comparison)).

Originally Posted by Nobodyman9

You know, I've just realized something. Who cares if it's emotional? Why should we care about the supposed "emotions" between two characters we know nothing about?

Obviously you do, else you wouldn't have spent several posts "discussing" the issue ...

And, once again, this is a silly question. You are not asking "Who" cares (the fact that the issue is even being discussed obviously means that someone cares), but rather "Why should I care", which is a personal question I have no reason to care to answer (and see no reason why you are even asking).

But, to answer your question (and to repeat myself), Lee and Kimimaro have a background, but it is obviously far less than Juugo and Kimimaro's (even if Juugo and Kimimaro are relatively undefined and the fight between Lee and Kimimaro covered more actual pages than the background between Juugo and Kimimaro). Consequently, the emotional conflict between Juugo and Kimimaro (even if not fully developed) is a more interesting conflict (to me at least), than that between Lee and Kimimaro (who have no real conflict beyond Lee proving himself).

[Ero-Senn1n]

Originally Posted by Ulquiorra

Suigetsu isn't even part of the Mist anymore. He can't be a swordsman.

Obviously he and the former Taka team members will be turned to the "good" side just like Sasuke will be, mostly done by Naruto. The main power of shonen manga main characters is that they can turn bad guys into good guys (the best example is Goku from DB). And then those guys join the good side to fight the next bad guy. Karin has already witnessed how bad Sasuke has gone and how good Naruto is (her remark about his chakra), and now it's the turn of the other two to realize this, since they want to search for Sasuke now they'll probably end up realizing the same thing that Karin realized. And then if Naruto saves and subverts Sasuke that will automatically make them recognize Naruto and join his side, and assuming that is not the end of the manga they'll end up joining their native villages or Konoha (Naruto will of course forgive them and let them join the villages and by that time Naruto's will will be stronger than some others who want these rogue ninjas dead or in prison). Well that's what i expect from a shonen manga style happy end. If Kishi gives character developement time to Suigetsu then it's obvious that his "happy end" will be to become one of the 7 swordsmen.

Originally Posted by Ulquiorra

We don't even know if he will be back in action. Kishimoto probably just showed them to explain the sudden appearence of Zabuza's sword.

If Suigets wants that sword and Zabuza has it then it's a given that Suigetsu will join the war to get that sword from the zombie.

Originally Posted by Ulquiorra

We probably won't see them again for another 50 chapters which is fine by me. We already saw them fight twice. Without Sasuke, there is no reason to see Taka.

Taka doesn't exist any more, but the story of the former team members is not over. Kishi always gives a nice ending to the side character's stories too, for example Sasori had his story ended right here in the beginning of this war. He had his happy ending which he always wished for: he can now join his parents in the other world, and his dream of achieving eternal art has come true by having his pieces of art being inherited by countless next generations of puppet ninjas like Kankuro. Now if you think by this logic you can come up with a happy ending for Suigetsu too.

Originally Posted by Ulquiorra

And I doubt Kishi will introduce new characters for the Alliance outside of named fodder. It's just too late to introduce the other swordsmen and expect anyone to care about them. There is no time to develop any one. The swordsmen zombies are fine since their only real purpose is to provide punching bags for the heroes. You don't have to develop them. Just give them cool moves like Paku and Gari. They are just plot devices.

Well the new swordsman generation is also a plot device, i don't see any reason for telling their detailed stories, they just have to exist and be strong ninjas. It's like in the case of the 2 subordinates of Danzou who were simply killed by Madara without any stories told about them. They were just plot devices, but their existence added to what we know about Ino's and Shino's clans. The only part of their story that i'm still missing is how did Danzou recruit them from their clans, what was the relation of the clan and root, so that they gave their member to serve the root.

Originally Posted by Ulquiorra

Chapter 515 showed us who are the lineup for the Alliance is. We are not going to see any new characters.

We are talking here about the whole alliance, that is the whole ninja world, there must be a lot of not yet named ninjas from the other 4 villages that are very strong. Otherwise it will be too much one sided in favor of Konoha, which would look stupid since the other villages are supposed to be equals of Konoha in the past ninja world wars. Of course i expect that each new character introduced will not get more than a page or two of battle and his name and special powers being told. As you said they are just "plot devices" for this war. But it's nice to see a real war where hundred of powerful ninjas use thousands of jutsu and we experience the intensity and messiness of a real war.

[Sabaku Kyu]

Originally Posted by Frenchie

I agree with all of this, but I think DeDe has a point when she said that Kishimoto didn't care for Juugo/Suigetsu. Despite the better emotional quality Kimimaro vs Juugo would have over Kimimaro vs Lee, I don't think the premise is set for the fights to occur.

Kishimoto did say he had no interest in giving the members of Team Taka individual fights. However, there's been dozens of chances to kill them off, yet they continue to appear, so they still have a role to play, if only a secondary one. I think the premise for Juugo vs. Kimi is definitely there, though I wouldn't say that their fight is a given yet.

Also, this being a war, none of the fights have been strictly 1-on-1. Why assume it'd be just Juugo vs Kimimaro or Lee vs Kimimaro? For all we know, through some strange series of events it could end up Lee, Juugo, Suigetsu and Sakura vs. Chiyo, Kimi and Hanzo with a jinchuuriki or two thrown in there. These fights have been a complete mash-up.

Their best bet would be to go to Madara's hideout and rejoin with Sasuke, but how long is that going to take? Not to mention Juugo doesn't have the Sharingan tranquilizing pill.

If they find Sasuke, it could go badly for them. Sasuke might decide he has no use for them like he did Karin. If that's case, at best, he'll tell them to f**k off. At worst, they end up as a workout for his new EMS powers. And considering with Kabuto did with Anko, God only knows what things he'd plan for Juugo if he knew where he was.

Originally Posted by Nobodyman9

Lee very much admires Gai, but he is by no means his clone. They have different personalities and behavioral traits.

Yeah, aside from dressing alike, having the same haircut, using the same techniques, the same poses and the same catchphrases they are nothing alike. See, one can fight drunk and the other can summon turtles

Completely different.

[felix]

Originally Posted by Sabaku Kyu

Kishimoto did say he had no interest in giving the members of Team Taka individual fights. However, there's been dozens of chances to kill them off, yet they continue to appear, so they still have a role to play, if only a secondary one.

If they get killed, they would suddenly be resurrected to fight in the war. So technically by keeping them alive they are more "dead" story wise.

[Frenchie]

Originally Posted by Sabaku Kyu

If they find Sasuke, it could go badly for them. Sasuke might decide he has no use for them like he did Karin. If that's case, at best, he'll tell them to f**k off. At worst, they end up as a workout for his new EMS powers. And considering with Kabuto did with Anko, God only knows what things he'd plan for Juugo if he knew where he was.

Oh wow, I can't believe I didn't even think of that. That's... a very likely scenario.

Yeah, aside from dressing alike, having the same haircut, using the same techniques, the same poses and the same catchphrases they are nothing alike. See, one can fight drunk and the other can summon turtles

Completely different.

And also, honestly, about Lee achieving variance in his taijutsu techniques, I don't think it matters. The Gates were an amazing idea for Lee, but he should have grown that technique on his own, not in parallel to Gai. In pretty much every fight featuring Gai or Lee, the reader expected to see Gates opening. Now they've been overused.
On top of that, the Gates have become the pinnacle of taijutsu techniques, so any variance achieved, no matter how different/unusual, will be completely overshadowed by a few gates opening.

I'd really rather not see Lee in a 1on1 fight again.

[LadyKikyo91]

Originally Posted by james0246

Blah. The less I see of Lee, the better. I much preffer the Juugo v. Kimimaro line-up rather than anything to do with Rock Lee. If Kishimoto had to decide, I hope he goes for Juugo over Lee, but, if nothing else, I hope for a tag team rather than just Lee, because Lee v. Kimiaro has far less emotional impact than Juugo v. Kimimaro.

Hey what's with the Rock Lee hate. He is awesome. But I have always found Juugo interesting though.

[Ulquiorra]

^ Juugo and Suigetsu seemed to be interesting around 2008. But it's been downhill since then. Part of the problem is that we saw them fight which removed much of their mystery. We saw Juugo go all out against the Raikage and use his biggest attack. And it barely dented A. We already saw a lot from Sui. Then he got one paneled by Darui. That took a lot of steam out of them.

Karin is probably the most interesting Taka member now and that isn't saying much.

As for Lee, I notice a surprising number of Naruto fans aren't interested in him now. I am trying to understand why since he seemed popular at one time. I believe his biggest problem is how does he stand out from Gai? They are just too damn similar. And unfortunately, Kishimoto and the anime, have played this up in Shippuden for comedy. What am I going to see from Lee that I can't see from Gai? How will Lee ever top what Gai did to Kisame?

The best thing that can happen to Lee is for Gai to die so he can stand on his own and be the only real gate user in Konoha. But that is not going to happen. So Lee will continue to be Gai's mini-me. Which is a shame because the character had a lot of potential at one time before he become a comic relief character.

Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n

We are talking here about the whole alliance, that is the whole ninja world, there must be a lot of not yet named ninjas from the other 4 villages that are very strong.

If there were, they would have shown up by now. We are nearing the end of the manga. There are 80,000 Alliance ninja. I am sure there are numerous strong and talented jonin among them. But Kishi has been setting up the players in this war for a while. The introduction of Team Samui, the Kage bodyguards, and Mifune, were to acquaint the audience with them. The only new out of nowhere character was Kitsuchi. But even he was part of chapter 515 which showed you who the players were going to be. They were in the front of each division with a spotlight panel. Throw in the Kages, and their assistants, and you have the Alliance. And so far that has held true through three battles. Any new character will be like the Ambush Company fodder or poor Tajiki in this chapter.

New characters only take away development opportunities from the established characters who badly need it. If this were earlier in the manga, than I would say the chance of new character debuting and being developed was high. But not near the end.

Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n

Otherwise it will be too much one sided in favor of Konoha, which would look stupid since the other villages are supposed to be equals of Konoha in the past ninja world wars.

Konoha has always been the center of the universe in this manga. It's where the main character and his friends live. It's where the co-main used to live. It's where the three main villains(Orochimaru, Madara, and Kabuto) came from.

They are the Gryffindor/Slytherin house of Naruto. Everyone else are Hufflepuffs and Ravenclaws.

[Ero-Senn1n]

Originally Posted by Ulquiorra

We are nearing the end of the manga.

Really? Did Kishimoto somewhere say when will it end? I don't follow every interview and data books.

[felix]

Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n

Really? Did Kishimoto somewhere say when will it end? I don't follow every interview and data books.

I think he's basing it on the fact just about everyone who ever was anything in Naruto is fighting left and right.

[Fran~]

Originally Posted by felix

I think he's basing it on the fact just about everyone who ever was anything in Naruto is fighting left and right.

yeah, it would be so difficult to create new characters or a new arc.

The only moment when i would think that Naruto is near to down the curtain is when he saves Konoha from some danger being Hokage.

[felix]

Originally Posted by Fran~

yeah, it would be so difficult to create new characters or a new arc.

Unless Naruto goes to some other dimension (so unlikely) or we get a time skip of at least 12 years, yes it would. Supposedly every ninja in the world is fighting so any "new characters" in a later arc would be instantly cheapened because they didn't take any lead role in the fighting.

The manga itself might not end, but the hole "story of Naruto" and the demons might.

[Ero-Senn1n]

It's not difficult to imagine: we see that there is only one continent here. What if Kishi makes another continent which invades this one. Of course this would be after Naruto defeated Madara, saved Sasuke and became someone who is even higher standing than a kage, also a timeskip can be added if Kishi wants to show us an 18 year old Naruto after a 12 and 15 year old. In DB/DBZ we have seen Goku as a kid, as a young teenager and as a father too. We also learned in DBZ that his roots are on another planet. After DB ended it seemed that there's nothing more, but there was in DBZ. There are manga and comics where we learn that the main hero is from another world, sometimes in the beginning (superman) and sometimes at the end of the first story (DB/DBZ, Hokuto no ken). I'm not that much interested to see armies/people from other continents but i'm interested to see Naruto as a family man too, that was good in DBZ and i think it would be good in this story too.

[felix]

Now not that I wouldn't want to see that, but just to nit pick wasn't it made very clear what the worlds bounds are? As I understand it this IS the only continent. That said, I do remember a ruined "modern" city, and the hole "nobles" and how they fit into the ninja world was never explained. But that might be just sugar to keep at least some mystery alive.

[Freya]

I was wondering...probably answered SOMEWHERE....but what happens to Itachi? Is he going to be fighting blind?

[james0246]

Originally Posted by Freya

I was wondering...probably answered SOMEWHERE....but what happens to Itachi? Is he going to be fighting blind?

Kabuto explained in the previous chapter that Itachi has his eyes and his bloodline.

[Fran~]

Originally Posted by james0246

Kabuto explained in the previous chapter that Itachi has his eyes and his bloodline.

Itachi had owned Orochi in so many ways, that i can foresee that he will broke Edo Tensei and fight along with the Allies

[Alchemist007]

I'd laugh if 'breaking through' the technique would result in returning to empty corpse mode.

[Frenchie]

Speaking of Orochimaru, he's, technically speaking, sealed in Totsuka, right? "In a dreamlike state", if I recall correctly. We don't actually know what happened to those weapons when Itachi died, did we?

Because, if my memory serves correctly, they weren't at Sasuke's disposal.

Do you think it possible that Kabuto somehow retrieved the sword or the ability and is using a sealed Orochimaru to power the technique in the first place?
Hence the 'This technique has no drawback!' claim? It might be technically true if Kabuto is merely facilitating the jutsu and using Oro as a shield for the drawback.

Would also explain why Orochimaru never used the jutsu again after doing it on the 1st and 2nd Hokages.

[Shiryuu]

Itachi's hax eye jutsu is now Sasuke's. Chances are he was so hax that sword and mirror came with his susanoo.