[Game] Umineko - Spoilers, Theories, Interpretations

[GoldenLand]

Originally Posted by eX_ploit

Did you actually read what I wrote there? Because I wrote exactly that. He is the only one on the island who meets all requirements. And the requirements are
1. Being able to be invited to their room.
2. Stay in their room while Hideyoshi goes to shower.
3. Have enough physical strength and skill to kill 2 people with one hit of icepick to the forehead.

Hmm. Forgive me for jumping in when I haven't read the rest of your theory properly yet - and since it's long that may take a while, or I may leave it until later - but I do have some issues with the above. Why are those the requirements which must be met for the murderer who killed Eva and Hideyoshi?

There is no proof that the culprit who killed Eva and Hideyoshi was invited into the room (although I would not find it surprising), nor that while the culprit was there, Hideyoshi left the main room to go and take a shower. There is also no proof that the murder weapon was an ice pick or anything that resembles an ice pick, is there? We do know that one of the Stakes was placed in the wound, but that does not mean it was the murder weapon. And it might not even be possible to kill anyone with the Stakes, since they are actually only novelty paperweights. And, in episode 4 when Battler was examining Kyrie's corpse, which had been left with a stake in its forehead, he deduced that she probably was not killed by the stake.

Episode 4

Her head wasn't smashed.

......Instead, a stake with an occult-like design was buried into her forehead.

......It was so gruesome, ......so I pulled it out.
After pulling it, I realized that this might get me into trouble with the police later.
So, a little too late, I lay it by Kyrie-san's side.
Its tip was sharp, and stained with enough blood that it must have penetrated fully to the brain.

I didn't know what kind of metal it was made of, but it was about as heavy as a paperweight.

Certainly, if you were stabbed all-out with something like this, it might cause a terrible wound.
.........I...probably understood what this stake meant.

......It's one of those.

The style of killing from the fourth twilight onwards in the witch's epitaph.
......It's probably that 'gouge with a stake and kill' thing.
However, a human skull is very firm.

.........Even with all one's strength, could it be made to pierce so sharply......?
No.

......By my reasoning, this stake wasn't the cause of death, but had just been used to damage the corpse after death.
She had probably been killed by being shot with a gun or something, like George-aniki, .........and the stake had been stuck into the hole left by the gun.

......Thinking about it that way, everything works out.

[Mr. Dent]

Originally Posted by eX_ploit

She did appear in first game to give letter to Maria. Everyone asked Maria how she looked like and Maria told she was the same as on portrait.
Protrait changing Beatrice's looks from game to game is foreshadowing that there are multiple Beatrices. not to mention meta scenes where literally two Beatrice's walk and talk with each other.

That's Maria's testimony. There's no proof a person really dressed like that and did that.

Did you actually read what I wrote there? Because I wrote exactly that. He is the only one on the island who meets all requirements. And the requirements are
1. Being able to be invited to their room.
2. Stay in their room while Hideyoshi goes to shower.
3. Have enough physical strength and skill to kill 2 people with one hit of icepick to the forehead.

I did read that, but still feel there are others on the island who fit that description.

Here is a weak point of your argument. The word pretend. Should I remind you that most corpses in the shed were heavily mutilated to the point that anyone looking at them would understand that they are dead?

Ah, but that's exactly why I said "pretend!" Or do you forget Eva, when telling Battler to suspect the servants, refer to the corpses as "wearing that grotesque make-up." Until the end, she never realized the murders were real- Another reason she went from"don't trust the servants" to "it was Natsuhi" so quickly- she only wanted Battler to suspect the servants.

I don't see how this is debunked.
No life forms other than humans have any connection to this game
This means that only humans could kill anybody, and not personalities.
All of them had wounds resembling gunshot wounds which became fatal!
Personalities can't have fatal gunshot wounds.

Another piece of evidence you don't even understand the truth. Yasu doesn't have multiple personality disorder. Think of Rokkenjima as a stage, the eighteen as it's cast, and Yasu as an actress who plays more than one character- Personalities cannot be shot, but characters in a play can.

This refers only to the first game.

There are two types of Red- Those which refer to a specific scene, and those which count across all games. However, I suppose you can argue this is the former kind.

When exactly. I can't find that part.

Battler, along with everyone else, stormed her room after she died, and all witnessed her body, as it was searched by Nanjo.

The short answer is - she wants to escape her fate.
For the longer answer I'll need some time.

As any Umineko fan should know, the why comes before the how. If your why doesn't impress me, I'll be disappointed.

[GoldenLand]

Originally Posted by eX_ploit

Of the three mentioned Jessica is the mastermind. In all 4 of original games she fulfills her plan, survives until the end, and leaves the island.

A little belated, but welcome back. Arguments are the lifeblood of the Umineko board.

I'm not sure it's possible for Jessica to survive to the end of all the games. In ep 2, there is a reference to Jessica's corpse, and in ep 4, Battler was the only person who lived right to the end.

Originally Posted by eX_ploit

Rosa and Jessica are both Beatrices. The older one and the younger one. They both have lived for a long time on the island, they both were raised without love, and they both have read black magic books in Kinzo's library.

Well, we've already got eight other characters that have gone by Beatrice at some point, there could be more. But, I'd say that Jessica at least was not raised without love. As for the other reasons for them being Beatrices there, those are not sufficient on their own. It would require more explanation.

Why is Jessica chick Beato, and why is Rosa Beatrice the Elder? What is the connection between the two of them which means that together, they make up the full Beatrice?

Originally Posted by eX_ploit

Rosa is Beatrice who appeared in Maria's home after Sakutarou was "killed".

I'm not sure I understand - is your meaning that Rosa-as-Beatrice was the Beatrice who became friends with Maria? If so, I would be interested to know your explanation for why it is that Beatrice was unable to bring Sakutarou back to life. Beatrice's reasoning for why she was unable to revive him was that Sakutarou was killed by Rosa, his creator. But, if Beatrice was Rosa, by her own reasoning, she could have brought him back to life, presumably even without his vessel. Or, she would have been aware that Sakutarou was actually a mass-produced toy, so she could have bought a new one.

Originally Posted by eX_ploit

Jessica is Beatrice who loved Battler, and also the one who gave golden brooch to Shannon and Kanon.

If that is the case, I have two questions. Firstly, why was Shannon shown to be the person who loved Battler and transferred her affection to Beatrice? Secondly, if Jessica was Beatrice and gave them the brooch and so on, why is it that Jessica did not appear to understand why Kanon was "furniture"? Sadism? Beatrice seemed to understand the issue very well.

Originally Posted by eX_ploit

Jessica is not child of Krauss and Natsuhi. She is actually child of Rudolf and Asumu that has supposedly died, in other words she is Battler's half-sister.

How, and why? Do you have any clues to support this in the text?

Originally Posted by eX_ploit

Jessica kills Kanon in games 2 and 4 and disguises his corpse as her own corpse. That's why Battler can't find his corpse anywhere in those games.

I don't think that's possible in regard to the second game. There is a reference to Jessica's corpse in red. Even if there were a way around the mention of her corpse, it would not be possible for Jessica to escape the room and leave Kanon's corpse disguised as her, due to the line "Whoops, the corpse of Jessica is also included" when Beatrice listed in red the people who were inside the room. And No one is hiding inside the room.

Originally Posted by eX_ploit

While chain and lock could be falsified after the murder took place, it definetly couldn't be broken before murder took place, because it doesn't make any sense for Eva and Hideyoshi to stay at a room where lock and chain are broken.
And also murder weapons at least in this murder are definetly the icepicks, not guns.
Evidence for that is testimony of Battler who has observed them.

I don't think it's at all established that the weapons were really the Stakes (which are not ice picks at all, really).

What you are saying about Battler's testimony is contradicted both in episode 1 and episode 4. In the part of ep 4 which I quoted earlier, Battler looks at the corpse of Kyrie (supposedly killed by a stake to the forehead) and decides that it must have been stuck in the wound after death.

And in episode 1, Battler later explains that he never got a good look at the stakes which were in Eva and Hideyoshi.

In Eva oba-san and Hideyoshi oji-san's case, it had been a little brutal, but since we had wanted to preserve the crime scene, we had left the weapons sticking into them.
Though it had seemed brutal, we'd left the weapons that had been stuck into Eva oba-san and Hideyoshi oji-san to preserve the crime scene.

...So this was the first time we were able to have a perfect view of the entire weapon.
As we had expected, the weapon was not bladed like a knife, but shaped like an icepick, ...or rather, a thin stake.
And also, ...it had a spiral-shaped pattern that might have been like a drill.

...It looked like something that might be driven into the hearts of human sacrifices in some demonic ritual...
Including the handle, it was 25 centimeters long. Half of that was the stake shaped part, which was stained with deep red blood.
......The length of the blood-stained part made it clear just how deeply it must have penetrated into Kanon-kun's chest...

Anyway, it's possible you may have already had a go at explaining some of the answers to questions I've asked above, so I'll come back and take a look at the rest of your theory and the rest of the posts discussing the matter later. Got to leave for now.

[AuraTwilight]

She did appear in first game to give letter to Maria. Everyone asked Maria how she looked like and Maria told she was the same as on portrait.
And she also appeared in the end before 24:00, and Maria recognized her as Beatrice.
Protrait changing Beatrice's looks from game to game is foreshadowing that there are multiple Beatrices. not to mention meta scenes where literally two Beatrice's walk and talk with each other.

Actually, this is false. No one ever actually ASKS what the person looked like to Maria, she only says that it was "Beatrice" and keeps insisting such, and everyone else makes assumptions based on that.

This is a clever and important part, as EP7 establishes that Maria characterizes people based on how they behave, not how they appear. Anyone would be "Beatrice" to her if they act out the part properly, dress or no dress.

Did you actually read what I wrote there? Because I wrote exactly that. He is the only one on the island who meets all requirements. And the requirements are
1. Being able to be invited to their room.
2. Stay in their room while Hideyoshi goes to shower.
3. Have enough physical strength and skill to kill 2 people with one hit of icepick to the forehead.

Your logic isn't sound; especially since George has an alibi under Battler's watch during the 2nd Twilight. Kanon and Genji also confirm that the chain was set when they found the room, so it couldn't of been merely unlocked for George.

Of course, the answer is that the chain was cut, making Kanon and Genji liars, but that's all the more reason they should be suspected above anyone else. Also, the idea of shoving a pick into someone's head through brute strength is a red herring. It's as easy as shooting someone, then sticking an ice pick into the wound.

Here is a weak point of your argument. The word pretend. Should I remind you that most corpses in the shed were heavily mutilated to the point that anyone looking at them would understand that they are dead?

Only the Detective has the ability to tell a corpse from someone faking with 100% certainty, as established in episodes 5 and 6.

I don't see how this is debunked.
No life forms other than humans have any connection to this game
This means that only humans could kill anybody, and not personalities.
All of them had wounds resembling gunshot wounds which became fatal!
Personalities can't have fatal gunshot wounds.

Personalities are humans; they inhabit human bodies.

Also, technically speaking, all of them had "wounds resembling gunshot wounds that became fatal." IF one wants to argue semantics, the wounds resemble ones that became fatal, but that does not mean they actually were.

[eX_ploit]

Originally Posted by GoldenLand

In ep 2, there is a reference to Jessica's corpse

Ok. I've already explained this half a year ago, but here is a recap:
There are 2 references to Jessica's corpse.
Here they are:

When Jessica's corpse was discovered, only Battler, George, Maria, Rosa, Genji, Gohda, Shannon, Kumasawa, and Nanjo were in Jessica's room
Whoops, the corpse of Jessica is also included

As you can see in the second sentence, the word corpse is omitted from red,
making it from
corpse of Jessica is also included
to simply
Jessica is also included
which means that at that time an alive Jessica exists in the room.
And with regards to Jessica's corpse in the first sentence, it has to do with pulling words out of context. Just because a complete red sentence is true doesn't mean that we can take an arbitrary part of it and declare it as true too. In other words just because words "Jessica's corpse" exist inside a red sentence doesn't mean that this corpse is really hers. Something that would really prove her death would be saying
Jessica is dead
or not including her among alive people in the room, but as we see with
Whoops, the corpse of Jessica is also included
she IS included among living people.

, and in ep 4, Battler was the only person who lived right to the end.

How can you say that?
He saw everyone being dead, but Jessica's corpse which he observed wasn't hers, so she was alive.

Well, we've already got eight other characters that have gone by Beatrice at some point, there could be more. But, I'd say that Jessica at least was not raised without love.

Can you tell more about this? Because that's not at all what I know about Jessica.
She basically hates both her parents. And she brings a freaking brass knuckle to school.
I mean
She brings
a freaking
brass knuckle
to school.
That to me signifies a mental trauma.

I'm not sure I understand - is your meaning that Rosa-as-Beatrice was the Beatrice who became friends with Maria?

There is a rule that Maria can only meet Beatrice on Rokkenjima. And why is that? Because that particular Beatrice is Jessica, and she lives on Rokkenjima.
But there is an exception to this rule. On the day that Sakutarou was killed by Rosa, Beatrice appeared before Maria in her own home. And that one was of course Rosa.

If so, I would be interested to know your explanation for why it is that Beatrice was unable to bring Sakutarou back to life. Beatrice's reasoning for why she was unable to revive him was that Sakutarou was killed by Rosa, his creator. But, if Beatrice was Rosa, by her own reasoning, she could have brought him back to life, presumably even without his vessel. Or, she would have been aware that Sakutarou was actually a mass-produced toy, so she could have bought a new one.

Explanation here is rather simple. Rosa simply didn't want Maria to wander the streets with Sakutarou anymore. Otherwise she could revive him no problem.

If that is the case, I have two questions. Firstly, why was Shannon shown to be the person who loved Battler and transferred her affection to Beatrice?

Because Shannon and Jessica are the only friends of one another. So when this incident happened with Shannon and Battler, Shannon has obviously told everything in details to Jessica.

Secondly, if Jessica was Beatrice and gave them the brooch and so on, why is it that Jessica did not appear to understand why Kanon was "furniture"? Sadism? Beatrice seemed to understand the issue very well.

The problem here is that we know Beatrice mainly through magic scenes, and there are a lot of falsehoods there.
From what I understand, Jessica gave them golden brooch as a magic trick, to give Kanon some courage so that she could make out with him, and she gave it to Shannon first, because she couldn't give it to Kanon directly. And it was most probably not even golden, but some cheap toy which looked golden instead. But her plan backfired badly, as Kanon not only rejected her, but also trampled her brooch and ran away, while at the same time George and Shannon ended up just fine..

How, and why? Do you have any clues to support this in the text?

Yes, I have already answered that a few posts under that big post.

I don't think that's possible in regard to the second game. There is a reference to Jessica's corpse in red. Even if there were a way around the mention of her corpse, it would not be possible for Jessica to escape the room and leave Kanon's corpse disguised as her, due to the line "Whoops, the corpse of Jessica is also included" when Beatrice listed in red the people who were inside the room.

Explained this higher.

And No one is hiding inside the room.

Jessica was really hiding in the room that time.
But how can Beatrice say this red and not create a contradiction?
It's actually simple. All you have to do is to travel in time.
Red truths that are said in present time are bound to the time at which they are proclaimed.
And even though, Battler and Beatrice are discussing events in Jessica's room, they are doing it from a completely different timeframe, in which Jessica is no longer hiding in her room. So when Beatrice proclaims that noone is hiding, she says truth.

I don't think it's at all established that the weapons were really the Stakes (which are not ice picks at all, really).

What you are saying about Battler's testimony is contradicted both in episode 1 and episode 4. In the part of ep 4 which I quoted earlier, Battler looks at the corpse of Kyrie (supposedly killed by a stake to the forehead) and decides that it must have been stuck in the wound after death.

And in episode 1, Battler later explains that he never got a good look at the stakes which were in Eva and Hideyoshi.

Okay, maybe I was a little bit hasty here with the icepicks.
But my other points still hold here.

I can invoke Knox's 8th
Knox's 8th. It is forbidden for the case to be resolved with clues that are not PRESENTED...!!
And based on it I can reject any theory that states that Eva and Hideyoshi were killed somewhere else and then transported to this room, or that Hideyosi was not killed in the shower, and was transported to shower after death.
Because there is no evidence that their bodies were moved after death.
And based on this we can establish that the scene of murder is authentic.
Eva was killed in the room while Hideyoshi was taking a shower, and soon after Hideyoshi himself was killed in the shower.
While they were alive, lock and chain should be working just fine. Otherwise it makes no sense for them to stop in a room with broken chain.
And so whoever killed them must have been invited.
It's quite unlikely that Eva would invite anyone other than George, and the exception is of course if Eva was someone's accomplice and she invited them to prepare for crime. However that assumption brings with itself a whole lot of contradictions which I explained earlier why Eva can't be an accomplice.

[Mali]

Thank you for your replieing Golden Land.
I didn't know how Japanese numerus works. This part seems to have some quirks in its choices of words like "exit to escape" or "way to escape".

Please let me show this point.

If Battler was really was kidnapped then the door (from the hallway) to the guestroom could has lost its purpose of escape and Erika requested red for this:
"The definition of going in or out refers to when someone crosses the boundary between the guest room and the area outside it."
As I see it, Battler hasn't to leave through the door because it's not necessary for him to escape.

Are they really? I can't find evidence that there was only one seal on the guest room door. Looking at the English translation from the patch, the seals on the guest room door are referred to as "seals".

"Erika dashed down the hallway with a sickening smile and clung to the guest room door like a spider. Then, she closely examined the seals she had placed retroactively."

She was clinging to the door at the time and examining the "seals". Multiple seals.

My bad. It seems I mixed up with the seals on the cousins' room where one seal per door was made. I implied.

We have red that "No hidden places that are impossible for Erika-san to find exist inside the guest room." so I'm not sure that is possible.

Okay point for you. May it wrong if I say that Erika could mistook a hidden place or hidden passages as things she didn't checked?

Furthermore, there is the red that "I proclaim that the chain lock has been repaired by the duct tape seal and has regained its original functionality. And, thanks to that, I locked the room upon entering it and made this guest room a closed room from the inside once more.". This means that after Erika entered the room, repairing the chain lock caused the room to become a closed room once more. Which means that even if there had been an extra entrance which she had for some reason also broken the seal of when she entered, it must have been fixed again after she entered.

So, in short, there was only one exit, there was no exit which could have been hidden from Erika, the room became a closed room again after Erika repaired the chain lock, and even if there had been another way out, we know that Kanon never used it.

It would be nasty if I say "From the time after the Logic Error was fixed (Kanon rescued Battler) more bodys can go in or out. " It doesn't violate "I acknowledge it. From the time you entered the room to the time of the logic error, you, Battler, and Kanon were the only ones who went in or out of the guest room.".
If we implies that the red "Only you and Kanon entered, and only Battler left." only applies to the time of the logic error then Kanon dissapeared or can be rescued after time of the logic error.

I think this solution is very dumb because it uses word twists.

[eX_ploit]

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

Actually, this is false. No one ever actually ASKS what the person looked like to Maria, she only says that it was "Beatrice" and keeps insisting such, and everyone else makes assumptions based on that.

This is a clever and important part, as EP7 establishes that Maria characterizes people based on how they behave, not how they appear. Anyone would be "Beatrice" to her if they act out the part properly, dress or no dress.

This is not true.
This is from first game.

"Maria-chan. ...By this point, we can no longer remove someone from suspicion just because they are young. So for the last time, let me ask the question that everyone's had since last night!

...Yesterday, who was the Beatrice that handed you the letter?!!"

"...............Uu-."

"......Maria, don't try to fool us!! Make it clear! Who gave you that letter?!!"

"...Kihihihihihi. How many times do I have to tell you? It's Beatrice. The thousand year old Golden Witch.

............If you want to know what she looks like, just turn around. ...See, she's right there. Beatrice is. ......Kihhihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihihih ihihihihihihi!"

And "right there" is where her portrait hangs.

Your logic isn't sound; especially since George has an alibi under Battler's watch during the 2nd Twilight.

What is this alibi you are talking about?
Do you want to say that they were together the whole time between 1st and 2nd twilight?

Kanon and Genji also confirm that the chain was set when they found the room, so it couldn't of been merely unlocked for George.

Setting chain and drawing magic circle can be performed by a different person hiding in the room after murder. In this case Rosa, after playing dead in the shed in 1st twilight.

Only the Detective has the ability to tell a corpse from someone faking with 100% certainty, as established in episodes 5 and 6.

That's not what I was arguing about. Let's say that you see those mutilated bodies. Even if you can't 100% tell that they are dead, what you can say is if they are alive, they probably wish they were dead.

Personalities are humans; they inhabit human bodies.

The whole point of personalities in Shkannon theory is that they are not humans, and so things that work on humans don't work on them. Such as death proclaimed in red.
So your assertion that personalities are humans is the same as saying that Shkannon theory is false.

Also, technically speaking, all of them had "wounds resembling gunshot wounds that became fatal." IF one wants to argue semantics, the wounds resemble ones that became fatal, but that does not mean they actually were.

No. (Wounds resembling gunshot wounds) which became fatal.

[Mr. Dent]

Originally Posted by eX_ploit

And "right there" is where her portrait hangs.

Or she could be referring to Shannon, who was in the room at the time. (If I remember correctly.)

The whole point of personalities in Shkannon theory is that they are not humans, and so things that work on humans don't work on them. Such as death proclaimed in red.
So your assertion that personalities are humans is the same as saying that Shkannon theory is false.

Well, more accurately, personalities count as people, but not human beings. (As certified in that link I posted earlier.) Something I find interesting is that these "contradictions" only exist in the Witch Hunt fantranslation- not to diss Witch Hunt, I love their work on Umineko and Rose Guns Days, but this Red Truth "error" doesn't exist in either of the official translations (by NISAmerica and Yen Press), which both switch between using "people" and "human beings" effectively.

[eX_ploit]

Originally Posted by Mr. Dent

Or she could be referring to Shannon, who was in the room at the time. (If I remember correctly.)

You remember incorrectly. Both Shannon and Kanon are dead(or falsified their death by your theory) by that point in time.

Originally Posted by Mr. Dent

Well, more accurately, personalities count as people, but not human beings. (As certified in that link I posted earlier.) Something I find interesting is that these "contradictions" only exist in the Witch Hunt fantranslation- not to diss Witch Hunt, I love their work on Umineko and Rose Guns Days, but this Red Truth "error" doesn't exist in either of the official translations (by NISAmerica and Yen Press), which both switch between using "people" and "human beings" effectively.

Humans or people, it doesn't matter when you have a fatal gunshot wound.
Which reminds me

Another piece of evidence you don't even understand the truth. Yasu doesn't have multiple personality disorder. Think of Rokkenjima as a stage, the eighteen as it's cast, and Yasu as an actress who plays more than one character- Personalities cannot be shot, but characters in a play can.

Do you, by any chance, have any evidence which supports this viewpoint? Because I honestly have no idea how this is grounded in Umineko.

Battler, along with everyone else, stormed her room after she died, and all witnessed her body, as it was searched by Nanjo.

Oh, I thought you found something that I didn't see.
He saw the corpse, but he didn't see her face.
Because she was lying on the chest, face into the floor.
And when Battler testifies about it he doesn't mention anything about her face.

Ah, but that's exactly why I said "pretend!" Or do you forget Eva, when telling Battler to suspect the servants, refer to the corpses as "wearing that grotesque make-up." Until the end, she never realized the murders were real- Another reason she went from"don't trust the servants" to "it was Natsuhi" so quickly- she only wanted Battler to suspect the servants.

So you are saying that her saying word makeup to describe them is the proof that she thought that they weren't dead?
That's funny because Battler himself describes them the exact same way, and he knows that they are dead.
This is what Battler himself said about them.

.........the bodies which had been tumbled into here, each of them had been given an atrocious makeup.

That's Maria's testimony. There's no proof a person really dressed like that and did that.

Maria's testimony is as good as a proof, considering that she is retarded and doesn't lie as a consequence.

[Mr. Dent]

Originally Posted by eX_ploit

You remember incorrectly. Both Shannon and Kanon are dead(or falsified their death by your theory) by that point in time.

Oh, sorry, I suppose I was thinking back to the dinner scene. Anyway, they're not falsified- the "people" Shannon and Kanon are both truly dead, but the body they belong to is still living and breathing.

Humans or people, it doesn't matter when you have a fatal gunshot wound.
Which reminds me

A fictional character can still have a "fatal wound."

Do you, by any chance, have any evidence which supports this viewpoint? Because I honestly have no idea how this is grounded in Umineko

I didn't mean this literally. It's an analogy. Basically, Shannon and Kanon are characters Yasu makes "real" by acting out their lives. This is also what I believe to be the meaning behind the theater symbolism in Episode 7.

Oh, I thought you found something that I didn't see.
He saw the corpse, but he didn't see her face.
Because she was lying on the chest, face into the floor.
And when Battler testifies about it he doesn't mention anything about her face.

I still feel like he was close enough to the body to have realized it wasn't her.

So you are saying that her saying word makeup to describe them is the proof that she thought that they weren't dead?
That's funny because Battler himself describes them the exact same way, and he knows that they are dead.
This is what Battler himself said about them.

Once again, my memory may be wrong, but didn't she refer to them as being dressed in makeup? However, I suppose that, given that this is just dialogue and not Red, you can deny it any way you please.

Maria's testimony is as good as a proof, considering that she is retarded and doesn't lie as a consequence.

What the hell

[eX_ploit]

Originally Posted by Mr. Dent

A fictional character can still have a "fatal wound."

Yes, but it can't kill a real character.

I didn't mean this literally. It's an analogy. Basically, Shannon and Kanon are characters Yasu makes "real" by acting out their lives.

Ok. Now that we've come a full circle we can return to the question at hand.
Are they humans or not?
If they are not humans than they are rejected by this red
No life forms other than humans have any connection to this game
If they are humans then they must die from fatal gunshot wound.
I can already see you trying something like "they are humans when it's convenient for me and not humans otherwise"

I still feel like he was close enough to the body to have realized it wasn't her.

I still feel like this statement has nothing to do with evidence.

What the hell

Maria has been shown to badly understand concept of lying.
This makes her very gullible, but at the same time ensures that she says what she really believes. So if she says that she saw Beatrice in her full outfit, then that is what she really saw.

This is also what I believe to be the meaning behind the theater symbolism in Episode 7.

I will just remind you that Episode 7 is the same episode where gamemaster is Bernkastel. And that gamemaster can on his gameboard show any truth he wants to.
And the only way for human side to determine what's true and what's not are red truth and detective's presence, both of which are absent in this theatre, therefore literally any bullshit can be shown there. Especially considering who gamemaster is.

Ok, I just replayed ep6 ??? party, and there is a very interesting dialogue between Bernkastel and Featherine before Bern becomes gamemaster.
And Bernkastel pretty much openly admits that she will fuck up the truth horribly in 7th game.

[GoldenLand]

Originally Posted by eX_ploit

How can you say that?
He saw everyone being dead, but Jessica's corpse which he observed wasn't hers, so she was alive.

We have the red that: "And right now, there is no one other than you on this island. The only one alive on this island is you. Nothing outside the island can interfere." and "You are all alone on this island. And of course, I am not you. Yet I am here, now, and will kill you."

Of course, the person talking there is Beatrice, and she is going to kill Battler with the bomb. This is after 12AM, though, so it may not count.

However, aside from that, it is not possible for the corpse observed by Battler to be not Jessica's. He clearly observed it. And he was the detective during the 4th game: his viewpoint is objective; he cannot mis-identify a corpse, and has the ability to examine a corpse perfectly. Jessica is definitely dead. He looks at her corpse carefully to see what killed her - and he sees that half of her head is split open and that there were no other wounds on her.

"......In this game, ......it is impossible for humans without the detective's authority to examine corpses perfectly."

But Battler had the detective's authority at that point. He could examine the corpse perfectly. He cannot be mistaken about Jessica's identity.

I see you are talking elsewhere about how the only things humans have to rely on is the red truth and the detective. But if you say that Battler did not correctly examine Jessica's corpse, you are saying that you do not believe in the skills of the detective, and you are simply picking and choosing when to believe the red and the detective as it fits your theory.

As you have pointed out above, It is forbidden for the case to be resolved with clues that are not PRESENTED...!! but you are saying that clues were not presented to Battler, the detective with an objective viewpoint, about Jessica's corpse when he examined it, and you are resolving the case using them.

Originally Posted by eX_ploit

There are 2 references to Jessica's corpse.
Here they are:

When Jessica's corpse was discovered, only Battler, George, Maria, Rosa, Genji, Gohda, Shannon, Kumasawa, and Nanjo were in Jessica's room
Whoops, the corpse of Jessica is also included

As you can see in the second sentence, the word corpse is omitted from red,
making it from
corpse of Jessica is also included
to simply
Jessica is also included
which means that at that time an alive Jessica exists in the room.
And with regards to Jessica's corpse in the first sentence, it has to do with pulling words out of context. Just because a complete red sentence is true doesn't mean that we can take an arbitrary part of it and declare it as true too. In other words just because words "Jessica's corpse" exist inside a red sentence doesn't mean that this corpse is really hers. Something that would really prove her death would be saying
Jessica is dead
or not including her among alive people in the room, but as we see with
Whoops, the corpse of Jessica is also included
she IS included among living people.

No, a corpse is a corpse. Note that during ep 6, when a fake corpse was referred to for Battler, the word corpse was used in quotes.

The guest room was sealed at the time that Battler's 'corpse' was examined.

This indicates that the corpse is a fake and Battler is still alive – the corpse is merely a thing being called a corpse, not a real one.

A corpse is by definition a dead human body. Saying that something is Jessica's corpse is the same as saying that it is Jessica's dead body. If it is not Jessica's dead body, then that would appear to be a case of lying using the red.

Even if this were not so...she would still have to be hiding in the room. But the red means that she was not hiding in the room.

Originally Posted by eX_ploit

Jessica was really hiding in the room that time.
But how can Beatrice say this red and not create a contradiction?
It's actually simple. All you have to do is to travel in time.
Red truths that are said in present time are bound to the time at which they are proclaimed.
And even though, Battler and Beatrice are discussing events in Jessica's room, they are doing it from a completely different timeframe, in which Jessica is no longer hiding in her room. So when Beatrice proclaims that noone is hiding, she says truth.

"Let's go back to Jessica's room. When Jessica's corpse was discovered, only Battler, George, Maria, Rosa, Genji, Gohda, Shannon, Kumasawa, and Nanjo were in Jessica's room. Whoops, the corpse of Jessica is also included. Therefore, both in the case of Jessica's room and the case in this servants' room, no humans exist that you were not aware of. No one is hiding."

No way, I can't believe you're saying that the red suddenly does not apply right in the middle of a paragraph because of time travel.

That is a completely ridiculous suggestion. Beatrice is talking specifically about Jessica's room at the time when Jessica's corpse was discovered. It is not ambiguous. There are no clues to suggest that she is actually talking about a different event. You are saying there that Beatrice is straight up lying with the red.

You can't pick and choose. I say that the corpse must have been accurately identified as Jessica's, because it is stated as her corpse in red, and because the detective with his objective viewpoint observed it. The reason Beatrice goes "oops" and has to add her in as an afterthought is because Jessica, being a corpse, no longer counts as a human who exists.

However, let's say for the sake of argument that it is actually Kanon. You cannot say that the red Jessica is also included is effective but the red that no humans exist that you were not aware of. No one is hiding. does not, because it is convenient for you that with no warning or clues, Beatrice used TIME TRAVEL half way through the paragraph so that the red you don't like is a lie. No.

If you do not trust the red at all, it's not possible to use it to reason with, and it is silly to claim that you are relying upon it.

Originally Posted by eX_ploit

While they were alive, lock and chain should be working just fine. Otherwise it makes no sense for them to stop in a room with broken chain.
And so whoever killed them must have been invited.
It's quite unlikely that Eva would invite anyone other than George, and the exception is of course if Eva was someone's accomplice and she invited them to prepare for crime. However that assumption brings with itself a whole lot of contradictions which I explained earlier why Eva can't be an accomplice.

It doesn't follow at all that the person must have been invited. All they need to do is cut the chain, go in and kill Eva and then Hideyoshi. There are also reasons why Eva can be an accomplice and could believe that the murders were all a game, thus inviting the culprit in; other people have already gone over those, I suspect.

Originally Posted by eX_ploit

Can you tell more about this? Because that's not at all what I know about Jessica.
She basically hates both her parents. And she brings a freaking brass knuckle to school.
I mean
She brings
a freaking
brass knuckle
to school.
That to me signifies a mental trauma.

It's a bit trite to say it, but I think you've been looking at Jessica and her parents "without love". They have a difficult relationship where they can't relate to each other easily, but that doesn't mean she hates them. I think there has been a lot of nuance to their characterisation all along, so it isn't simple to give an example which can persuade somebody who didn't see it and believes that Jessica is the mastermind behind their murders.

I can point out a few small things off the top of my head, at least. Jessica gives the scorpion charm to her mother in ep 1, and feels bad to see her looking so lonely. She thinks that her mother is doing her best, and tries to be kind to her even though it doesn't come easily to her. Natsuhi, in turn, tries to be considerate of Jessica, but is unable to convey her intentions. They're both very awkward with each other, but it is not that they don't care.

Jessica becomes very upset at seeing the ugliness in the family conference; at times she's protective of her parents; at other times, when they're shown to die in the games, she becomes distressed and furious. Of course, if you're saying she was the one behind their deaths, you can say she was acting.

In a series like Umineko, I wouldn't say that comedic use of brass knuckles was the sign of the utmost mental trauma in the series by any means, but oh well, I don't know if you'll agree.

Originally Posted by eX_ploit

There is a rule that Maria can only meet Beatrice on Rokkenjima. And why is that? Because that particular Beatrice is Jessica, and she lives on Rokkenjima.
But there is an exception to this rule. On the day that Sakutarou was killed by Rosa, Beatrice appeared before Maria in her own home. And that one was of course Rosa.

Explanation here is rather simple. Rosa simply didn't want Maria to wander the streets with Sakutarou anymore. Otherwise she could revive him no problem.

So Jessica is always Beatrice to Maria, except for one time when Rosa randomly decides to be Beatrice? And according to your other reasoning, she must have had a dress and wig handy, too, and Maria only believes that Rosa is Beatrice because she's really really stupid? Not sure I buy any of that. I'm also not seeing an explanation of the connection between Rosa and Jessica and the reasoning behind them being the elder and younger Beatrices.

So, Beatrice was lying to Maria about being unable to revive Sakutarou. Okay, that's at least plausible. But, it would also be terribly cruel. Rosa is a terrible, terrible mother, but in some ways she refuses to understand the impact of her actions on Maria. But Beatrice really understands her. She knows how much Rosa is hurting Maria. Unless you're saying that the Beatrice who couldn't revive Sakutarou was Jessica? It really seems incoherent.

Originally Posted by eX_ploit

The problem here is that we know Beatrice mainly through magic scenes, and there are a lot of falsehoods there.
From what I understand, Jessica gave them golden brooch as a magic trick, to give Kanon some courage so that she could make out with him, and she gave it to Shannon first, because she couldn't give it to Kanon directly. And it was most probably not even golden, but some cheap toy which looked golden instead. But her plan backfired badly, as Kanon not only rejected her, but also trampled her brooch and ran away, while at the same time George and Shannon ended up just fine..

That isn't bad as an explanation, and if it was a fanfic I think I'd like it a lot, but unfortunately I don't think it can explain all of Beatrice's behaviour towards Kanon and Shannon, at least not in its current form. It's quite fun, though, to explore the idea of Jessica becoming resentful towards Kanon.

Originally Posted by eX_ploit

Yes, I have already answered that a few posts under that big post.

Hmm. Re the points about Jessica being Rudolf and Asumu's child, I don't find the reasoning persuasive. Natsuhi would find it easier to accept a child who was related to her husband than a random child, but it would still be massive blow to her pride, and she had already been unable to accept one child. It would not be an easy thing for her, and I don't think she would arrange it of her own will.

It's not that strange for somebody to not be able to conceive for a long time. Every now and then, people who doctors have told are 100% sterile for certain have surprise kids, and Natsuhi's doctors had been unable to find anything wrong with her. Natsuhi narrated "I still don't know what caused my inability to become pregnant. I even went to see noted physicians. I underwent humiliating examinations. ......But I was always just told that they didn't understand the reason..." (Really, if Natsuhi was cleared by the physicians, if one of the couple had a problem it would be more likely to be Krauss.)

George is about 5 years older than Jessica. Hideyoshi had already been adopted into the family years before Jessica was born. Eva started to get ideas of maybe George being the next head eventually and trying to persuade Kinzo, but there was no particular crunch point. Sorry, but there really doesn't seem to be any good evidence that Jessica is Rudolf's kid. I don't think there are any clues, other than Battler and Jessica being both born in the same year or so.

[GoldenLand]

Originally Posted by Mali

If Battler was really was kidnapped then the door (from the hallway) to the guestroom could has lost its purpose of escape and Erika requested red for this:
"The definition of going in or out refers to when someone crosses the boundary between the guest room and the area outside it."
As I see it, Battler hasn't to leave through the door because it's not necessary for him to escape.

If it was a kidnapping, which I suppose would have to mean that Battler was kidnapped when he was partly out of the room, then I suspect that we'd run into other definition issues.

This definition doesn't require him to be escaping:
"Confirming definition. Can I accept 'three people' to mean to the number of bodies? You're saying that three bodies went in or out of the room, right?"
"Of course. Three people--in other words, three bodies--went in or out. Only you and Kanon entered, and only Battler left. "

But, Battler was definitely rescued from the room by someone, and that was definitely Kanon. Is there any person who could have come to "kidnap" Battler from the threshold between the rooms? A lot of characters were dead, and a lot of them were probably sealed in.

Originally Posted by Mali

Okay point for you. May it wrong if I say that Erika could mistook a hidden place or hidden passages as things she didn't checked?

I don't know. Going by Knox, "Knox's 3rd. It is forbidden for hidden passages to exist." But does Knox's 3rd apply? For the sake of argument I think it's fair to use it.

Certainly, the text says that Erika checked the room very thoroughly. She wasn't even the detective at the time, but nonetheless we have the red that "No hidden places that are impossible for Erika-san to find exist inside the guest room.". So, personally I am satisfied that Erika searched the room extremely carefully and would not have overlooked a hidden passage or place. Erika even checked to make sure that she would be able to find a hidden place.

"Before I start searching, I have one blue truth I can use without a search. There is a possibility of a hidden door X that is impossible to discover. He's hidden behind that, so it is impossible for me to find him."

"Knox's 3rd. It is forbidden for hidden passages to exist. ......That right?"
"......No hidden places that are impossible for Erika-san to find exist inside the guest room."
"Knox's 3rd......EFFECTIVE."

"<Good>. ......Then let's get started with the search."

We were told that there was only one place which Erika did not search before Kanon was revised into the story, and that was the closet.

Originally Posted by Mali

It would be nasty if I say "From the time after the Logic Error was fixed (Kanon rescued Battler) more bodys can go in or out. " It doesn't violate "I acknowledge it. From the time you entered the room to the time of the logic error, you, Battler, and Kanon were the only ones who went in or out of the guest room.".
If we implies that the red "Only you and Kanon entered, and only Battler left." only applies to the time of the logic error then Kanon dissapeared or can be rescued after time of the logic error.

I like that train of thought, and I think it has more potential than some arguments that try to solve the Kanon problem, but I don't know if it can work. The game actually froze during the time that Erika was in the room. It looks as if the time that the logic error happened marks the point when the game ended and time ceased to flow. As long as that is the case, Kanon can't disappear or be rescued after the logic error. I wonder if there is any evidence that time could have started again.

What Beatrice needed to do to fix the logic error was to revise the gameboard logic so that the trick of having somebody replace Battler in the room would be effective. When Kanon did that, the logic was fixed but the gameboard didn't seem to spring back into life.

"The witch's game had already stopped, and the clock of the world of the pieces would never tick again.

So, for all eternity, ......no one...would come to save him from this place."

We also have the red from Erika that "The game ended while I was inside the guest room, so I did not undo the chain lock that I had previously set. So, it can't be that he escaped behind my back after I left the room. Furthermore, the chain lock was set at the same time I entered the room. No one could have left the room during the few seconds between the time I entered and the time I set the chain lock. "

Kanon definitely set the chain lock after Battler left.

"'The rescuer' means someone who reset the chain lock after Battler undid it. It does not matter whether they intended to save Battler or not. "

"The one who rescued Battler was, without a doubt, Kanon."

And "There is no exit to escape from except for this door. However, the chain lock on this door is set. You can unset and reset it all you want, but you can only do so from the inside. Furthermore, you are free to go out through the door, but you cannot leave or escape while the chain lock is unset."

I don't see how Kanon could have got out of that situation.

[Mali]

"For the rest of the fight in this room, the progression of the time will be stopped. This way, all the moves for both players will be made at the same time, and the first move will be treated no differently than the last move."

I think it's better to distinguish <player's pieces> and <pieces on their own>. So "everyone" couldn't act on their own, Battler can move them.

The game's end is similar to an open end because Erika didn't specify the exact time.
TIme's is very vague like in the 5th game.

Originally Posted by GoldenLand

I don't know. Going by Knox, "Knox's 3rd. It is forbidden for hidden passages to exist." But does Knox's 3rd apply? For the sake of argument I think it's fair to use it.

Certainly, the text says that Erika checked the room very thoroughly. She wasn't even the detective at the time, but nonetheless we have the red that "No hidden places that are impossible for Erika-san to find exist inside the guest room.". So, personally I am satisfied that Erika searched the room extremely carefully and would not have overlooked a hidden passage or place. Erika even checked to make sure that she would be able to find a hidden place.

Yeah you're right with this. But I didn't like the definitions of hidden passages because it was said in the 5th game "Passages that the detective cannot find are hidden PASSAGES." And Erika isn't the detective at that time.

Let's take these, too!

"The word guest room includes all of the bedroom, the bathroom, and the closet.", " I acknowledge it. "
"The inside of the guest room is divided into three sections: the bedroom, the bathroom, and the closet.", " I also recognize it as such. Furthermore, you have already confirmed with the red truth that two of those sections, the bedroom and the bathroom, had no one hiding in them."

Here's my absurd blue:
After Kanon hid in the closet he moved somehow inside the closet outside! Erika is the rescuer of Kanon. Kanon is not in the guest room but he didn't left the guestroom because the closet is a section of the guest room.
It'd be a logic error itself.

[eX_ploit]

Originally Posted by GoldenLand

We have the red that: "And right now, there is no one other than you on this island. The only one alive on this island is you. Nothing outside the island can interfere." and "You are all alone on this island. And of course, I am not you. Yet I am here, now, and will kill you."

Jessica has already escaped the island at this time, so she is not counted among people on island.

However, aside from that, it is not possible for the corpse observed by Battler to be not Jessica's. He clearly observed it. And he was the detective during the 4th game: his viewpoint is objective; he cannot mis-identify a corpse, and has the ability to examine a corpse perfectly. Jessica is definitely dead. He looks at her corpse carefully to see what killed her - and he sees that half of her head is split open and that there were no other wounds on her.



But Battler had the detective's authority at that point. He could examine the corpse perfectly. He cannot be mistaken about Jessica's identity.

Yes, I do think that detective's point of view can be trusted.
However, your version of detective's authority seems somehow... supernatural.
If we are talking about Erika for example, then yes, her powers are somewhat supernatural. Because that's how she is introduced. You can't expect the same level from Battler.

......In this game, ......it is impossible for humans without the detective's authority to examine corpses perfectly.

Detective's authority doesn't give corpse examining skills or motivation, only the possibility. And it's up to individual detective how he uses it. It's really apparent when we compare Battler to Erika.

Detective such as Battler doesn't automatically solve everything he touches. Instead he truthfully reports everything he discovers to the reader.
In that particular scene you say that he can't misidentify the corpse, but he never even attempted to identify it. That thought, that it could be someone else never crossed his mind.

I see you are talking elsewhere about how the only things humans have to rely on is the red truth and the detective. But if you say that Battler did not correctly examine Jessica's corpse, you are saying that you do not believe in the skills of the detective, and you are simply picking and choosing when to believe the red and the detective as it fits your theory.

No, I just read the story and see what actually happens in each scene.
And if there was any description that he actually recognized her face for example, then I would gladly accept that he is not mistaken. But the problem is that there are no remarks about her face at all. Which is strange because when he examines Shannon there is a remark about her lovely face.

As you have pointed out above, It is forbidden for the case to be resolved with clues that are not PRESENTED...!! but you are saying that clues were not presented to Battler, the detective with an objective viewpoint, about Jessica's corpse when he examined it, and you are resolving the case using them.

I'm resolving the case using other clues which are presented.
Contradictions between what Jessica told him on the phone and what he saw in her room lead to this conclusion too.
And disapearence of Kanon's corpse in the same 2 games where Jessica is observed dead.

No, a corpse is a corpse. Note that during ep 6, when a fake corpse was referred to for Battler, the word corpse was used in quotes.

The guest room was sealed at the time that Battler's 'corpse' was examined.

This indicates that the corpse is a fake and Battler is still alive – the corpse is merely a thing being called a corpse, not a real one.

At that time it was obvious to all parties involved that Battlers corpse is not a corpse.

A corpse is by definition a dead human body. Saying that something is Jessica's corpse is the same as saying that it is Jessica's dead body. If it is not Jessica's dead body, then that would appear to be a case of lying using the red.

But that red does not talk specifically about that corpse, it only mentions it indirectly.
In other words this corpse is not the subject of the red statement.
And in the next Sentence, where it does directly talk about corpse, word corpse is omitted from red.

Even if this were not so...she would still have to be hiding in the room. But the red means that she was not hiding in the room.



"Let's go back to Jessica's room. When Jessica's corpse was discovered, only Battler, George, Maria, Rosa, Genji, Gohda, Shannon, Kumasawa, and Nanjo were in Jessica's room. Whoops, the corpse of Jessica is also included. Therefore, both in the case of Jessica's room and the case in this servants' room, no humans exist that you were not aware of. No one is hiding."

"Let's go back to Jessica's room." is not in red.

No way, I can't believe you're saying that the red suddenly does not apply right in the middle of a paragraph because of time travel.

That is a completely ridiculous suggestion. Beatrice is talking specifically about Jessica's room at the time when Jessica's corpse was discovered. It is not ambiguous. There are no clues to suggest that she is actually talking about a different event. You are saying there that Beatrice is straight up lying with the red.

That's exactly what I say. She said "no one is hiding" in present time, so it works only on the time when she said it. With all other sentences here she used past time, and elaborated to which time they refer.
And about
no humans exist that you were not aware of
Jessica is not included here because he was already aware about her existance.
And at this point Battler argued with Beatrice that she is the unknown 19th person, so this is red against that.

You can't pick and choose. I say that the corpse must have been accurately identified as Jessica's, because it is stated as her corpse in red, and because the detective with his objective viewpoint observed it. The reason Beatrice goes "oops" and has to add her in as an afterthought is because Jessica, being a corpse, no longer counts as a human who exists.

On the contrary, if what you are saying was true, then Beatrice wouldn't need to include Jessica anywhere. The fact that she is forced to list her somewhere suggests that she is alive.

However, let's say for the sake of argument that it is actually Kanon. You cannot say that the red Jessica is also included is effective but the red that no humans exist that you were not aware of. No one is hiding. does not, because it is convenient for you that with no warning or clues, Beatrice used TIME TRAVEL half way through the paragraph so that the red you don't like is a lie. No.

She didn't use time travel. that was my allegory. They simply discuss event's of Jessica's room long after these events have ended. And that creates a situation that every red truth which is spoken in present time form applies to present and not to that previous time that they are discussing.

If you do not trust the red at all, it's not possible to use it to reason with, and it is silly to claim that you are relying upon it.

I do trust red generally, I just realize that it too can be used for deception by author, so I check for holes in them.

It doesn't follow at all that the person must have been invited. All they need to do is cut the chain, go in and kill Eva and then Hideyoshi.

You cannot cut the chain from outside, you need to open door first
If that was the case it gives Eva and Hideyoshi a little bit of time, and so we would expect to find them in different poses

There are also reasons why Eva can be an accomplice and could believe that the murders were all a game, thus inviting the culprit in; other people have already gone over those, I suspect.

Eva couldn't believe that, because she was in the shed, and bodies there were humiliated so brutally that it was obvious for anyone who saw them.

It's a bit trite to say it, but I think you've been looking at Jessica and her parents "without love". They have a difficult relationship where they can't relate to each other easily, but that doesn't mean she hates them. I think there has been a lot of nuance to their characterisation all along, so it isn't simple to give an example which can persuade somebody who didn't see it and believes that Jessica is the mastermind behind their murders.

It may not mean that she hates them, but that is certainly not something that I would call raised with love.

Jessica gives the scorpion charm to her mother in ep 1, and feels bad to see her looking so lonely.She thinks that her mother is doing her best, and tries to be kind to her even though it doesn't come easily to her. Natsuhi, in turn, tries to be considerate of Jessica, but is unable to convey her intentions. They're both very awkward with each other, but it is not that they don't care.

Did you read my whole post by the way? Because this scene is actually one of my evidences that Jessica is culprit.
She gave her this charm and the next morning there was blood on Natsuhi's door.
Whoever painted it there must've known about the charm, but the only ones who knew were Natsuhi and Jessica.

So Jessica is always Beatrice to Maria, except for one time when Rosa randomly decides to be Beatrice? And according to your other reasoning, she must have had a dress and wig handy, too, and Maria only believes that Rosa is Beatrice because she's really really stupid? Not sure I buy any of that.

I'm not really sure about his one actually. Didn't give it too much thought.

I'm also not seeing an explanation of the connection between Rosa and Jessica and the reasoning behind them being the elder and younger Beatrices.

I think the reasoning is backwards here actually. The thing that Full Beato(who represents the whole game) consists of Chic-Beato and Elder-Beato is simply a hint that there are two of them, nothing that particularly binds them to Rosa and Jessica, only that they both need to dress as Beatrice at different times.

As for the connection between Jessica and Rosa it can actually be Maria.
As we know in childhood Rosa did meet and accidentally killed real Beatrice.
So what happens then, when for example, Rosa takes Maria to Rokkenjima and after finishing her business with Kinzo, tries to find Maria, only to stumble upon her in the company of Beatrice.

That isn't bad as an explanation, and if it was a fanfic I think I'd like it a lot, but unfortunately I don't think it can explain all of Beatrice's behaviour towards Kanon and Shannon, at least not in its current form. It's quite fun, though, to explore the idea of Jessica becoming resentful towards Kanon.

But it doesn't need to explain all of Beatrice's behavior. By the way what are those behavior that can't be explained?

Hmm. Re the points about Jessica being Rudolf and Asumu's child, I don't find the reasoning persuasive. Natsuhi would find it easier to accept a child who was related to her husband than a random child, but it would still be massive blow to her pride, and she had already been unable to accept one child. It would not be an easy thing for her, and I don't think she would arrange it of her own will.

It's not that strange for somebody to not be able to conceive for a long time. Every now and then, people who doctors have told are 100% sterile for certain have surprise kids, and Natsuhi's doctors had been unable to find anything wrong with her. Natsuhi narrated "I still don't know what caused my inability to become pregnant. I even went to see noted physicians. I underwent humiliating examinations. ......But I was always just told that they didn't understand the reason..." (Really, if Natsuhi was cleared by the physicians, if one of the couple had a problem it would be more likely to be Krauss.)

George is about 5 years older than Jessica. Hideyoshi had already been adopted into the family years before Jessica was born. Eva started to get ideas of maybe George being the next head eventually and trying to persuade Kinzo, but there was no particular crunch point. Sorry, but there really doesn't seem to be any good evidence that Jessica is Rudolf's kid. I don't think there are any clues, other than Battler and Jessica being both born in the same year or so.

Okay, I fucked up George's birth, but other than that. You've only analyzed half of the equation. What about the other half? Rudolf's plan to get rid of one of his children. We know that he at least swapped one child from one woman to the other. But that doesn't make any sense. It's not that easy to swap alive child with a dead child in nursery. Therefore preparations should have been made beforehand.
But how could he know beforehand that one of his children would die?

[Mr. Dent]

Originally Posted by eX_ploit

Okay, I fucked up George's birth, but other than that. You've only analyzed half of the equation. What about the other half? Rudolf's plan to get rid of one of his children. We know that he at least swapped one child from one woman to the other. But that doesn't make any sense. It's not that easy to swap alive child with a dead child in nursery. Therefore preparations should have been made beforehand.
But how could he know beforehand that one of his children would die?

I may be remembering wrong, and am not in a position to check, but wasn't it a spontaneous, spur-of-the-moment thing? I seem to remember him bribing the doctors after birth. Even still, this raises a question- Why did he give Kyrie's child to Asumu? Why didn't he let Asumu keep her baby, and give Battler to Krauss and Natsuhi?

[haguruma]

Originally Posted by eX_ploit

Yes, I do think that detective's point of view can be trusted.
However, your version of detective's authority seems somehow... supernatural.

The detective in any mystery novel is technically supernatural...or rather preternatural...in that he is an insurance for the readers to have a perspective they can trust.
And your definition of the detective in Umineko is incomplete. The detective character cannot tell the reader false information, thus when Battler says he finds "Jessica's corpse" in EP4, it is Jessica's corpse and not "something that looks like Jessica's corpse".

With all your ideas behind why Shkannontrice is an elaborate lie, I'd like you to explain this chapter to me:
Translation of EP8 Chapter 25 (Manga)

[AuraTwilight]

And "right there" is where her portrait hangs.

You are now changing the goalposts. No one in that quote directly asks Maria, "What does the person who handed you the letter look like?" and Maria does not lie. Beatrice has an appearance, but she also, by the construction of her own narrative, work through other people.

And, you know, you're ignoring her characterization in EP7 where she basically literally states this.

What is this alibi you are talking about?
Do you want to say that they were together the whole time between 1st and 2nd twilight?

For the majority of it, yea. Pretty much the one time they're not together, Natsuhi and Dr. Nanjo would've been with George.

Setting chain and drawing magic circle can be performed by a different person hiding in the room after murder. In this case Rosa, after playing dead in the shed in 1st twilight.

The reds don't allow someone to have been hiding in the room for the 1st episode's 2nd Twilight, and Will's conclusions call out the chain as having been an illusion. Since Kanon and Genji claim otherwise, they are lying. It's the same as the Church door trick for the second episode.

That's not what I was arguing about. Let's say that you see those mutilated bodies. Even if you can't 100% tell that they are dead, what you can say is if they are alive, they probably wish they were dead.

Or "Wow, that person I'm conspiring with for a murder mystery game with literally millions upon millions in GOLD can afford Hollywood style makeup and affects", and by the time things fall apart, it's too late to come clean or confront them about it.

Also people don't get wet in the rain and leave wet footprints, by Ryukishi's own Word of God, so.

The whole point of personalities in Shkannon theory is that they are not humans, and so things that work on humans don't work on them. Such as death proclaimed in red.
So your assertion that personalities are humans is the same as saying that Shkannon theory is false.

No, it's not. The point of personalities is that they can die and come back whenever Beatrice says they do. They're still 'humans' for her purposes when she characterizes them as such. Shannon and Kanon are called 'humans' in the red, but she can also 'revive' them.

It's a pretty important insight.

No. (Wounds resembling gunshot wounds) which became fatal.

Grammar-wise, my interpretation is equally valid. If you want to apply common sense over literal interpretations, then most of your arguments fall apart.

Jessica has already escaped the island at this time, so she is not counted among people on island.

Jessica's corpse is found by the Detective. That is as good as confirming that she is dead in red, even without considering Beato's multi-game Reds. Jessica's face is intact enough that you can discern her identity (one side of her face is fine), therefore it is not a fake or a double by Beatrice's rules.

Yes, I do think that detective's point of view can be trusted.
However, your version of detective's authority seems somehow... supernatural.
If we are talking about Erika for example, then yes, her powers are somewhat supernatural. Because that's how she is introduced. You can't expect the same level from Battler.

Detective Authority is effectively a Meta-power. It means that Battler is basically incapable of receiving false information. He cannot hallucinate, mistake a fake body for a real one, and other things of that nature. He can draw false conclusions, but he cannot provide the reader with incorrect facts.

Detective's authority doesn't give corpse examining skills or motivation, only the possibility. And it's up to individual detective how he uses it. It's really apparent when we compare Battler to Erika.

Detective such as Battler doesn't automatically solve everything he touches. Instead he truthfully reports everything he discovers to the reader.
In that particular scene you say that he can't misidentify the corpse, but he never even attempted to identify it. That thought, that it could be someone else never crossed his mind.

Battler literally uses the fact that he mistook a false thing for the real Kinzo in EP5 as proof that he is not the Detective. Therefore, when Battler is the detective, he cannot confuse "Not that person" with "That person".

No, I just read the story and see what actually happens in each scene.
And if there was any description that he actually recognized her face for example, then I would gladly accept that he is not mistaken. But the problem is that there are no remarks about her face at all. Which is strange because when he examines Shannon there is a remark about her lovely face.

he DOES talk about her head, and how HALF OF IT IS PERFECTLY INTACT.

You cannot cut the chain from outside, you need to open door first
If that was the case it gives Eva and Hideyoshi a little bit of time, and so we would expect to find them in different poses

Because. You know. Beatrice never puts corpses into specific positions, ever.

Oh wait, that's literally the first twilight of the second game.

I think the reasoning is backwards here actually. The thing that Full Beato(who represents the whole game) consists of Chic-Beato and Elder-Beato is simply a hint that there are two of them, nothing that particularly binds them to Rosa and Jessica, only that they both need to dress as Beatrice at different times.

That's not really what the two Beatos represent. Chick-Beato represents the aspect of Beatrice that was born to love Battler, and the other is a personification of the legend of Beatrice responsible for mysterious pranks at night. It's only when they're embodied in a single person that murder becomes possible for the Beatrice persona, implying only one person is acting as them.

In your attempt to find loopholes in everything you're missing the symbolic truth of the novel. That effectively makes you one of the goats who doesn't trust anything that isn't Red, which was Erika's downfall.

Okay, I fucked up George's birth, but other than that. You've only analyzed half of the equation. What about the other half? Rudolf's plan to get rid of one of his children. We know that he at least swapped one child from one woman to the other. But that doesn't make any sense. It's not that easy to swap alive child with a dead child in nursery. Therefore preparations should have been made beforehand.
But how could he know beforehand that one of his children would die?

Nanjo is described as the FAMILY doctor and he is hilariously easy to bribe.

[Oroboro]

As ludicrous as these positions are, it's still pretty hilarious to see this thread blow up again after months of near dormancy.

[GoldenLand]

Originally Posted by AuraTwilight

Nanjo is described as the FAMILY doctor and he is hilariously easy to bribe.

Actually, the ep 8 manga explains this situation. It looks as if Nanjo was not involved. Pictures are shown of Rudolf bribing the doctors, and he outright says that he bribed the hospital. Looks as if the hospital was pretty easy to bribe too.

Originally Posted by eX_ploit

Okay, I fucked up George's birth, but other than that. You've only analyzed half of the equation. What about the other half? Rudolf's plan to get rid of one of his children. We know that he at least swapped one child from one woman to the other. But that doesn't make any sense. It's not that easy to swap alive child with a dead child in nursery. Therefore preparations should have been made beforehand.
But how could he know beforehand that one of his children would die?

He didn't know beforehand, didn't plan to get rid of one of the babies, and having Asumu's baby die actually wrecked his plans for both families coexisting.

Ep 8 manga chapter 7

Rudolf: "When I was informed by Kyrie about the pregnancy at a time when an abortion could not be done any more, I lost all hope. But when the two reached the last month of pregnancy, I had my mind set on, somehow, making the two families coexist together. I had the money to make that possible.

However, when my legal wife lost her child and the child of my mistress was born, the story changed.

The cunning Kyrie would probably take advantage of this childbirth to separate me from Asumu and press me to enter her into the family register."

Rudolf: "At the time, my financial standing was good, so I threatened the hospital with money and switched your child with Asumu's. And like this, officially, the child of my legal wife was born and the child of my mistress died...In exchange, I made a vow to protect you as much as I could, since you had your child taken away as a result of this."

Ange: "In 1998, it was a well known fact that Battler onii-chan was a child of mom and dad. Suspicious of the Rokkenjima Incident conspiracy theories, the police and media investigated the lives of the relatives. The doctor in question revealed the switch of the babies."

The only weird thing is that Beatrice knew about the switch. Ange explains that it's because Beatrice has furniture who's informed about family internal affairs (Genji) so it is no wonder she knew about it, but that means that Genji knew about it. But, it's clear from other things that Rudolf said that the last thing he wanted was for Kinzo to find out about the death of Asumu's baby, because then Kinzo would want Kyrie to become Rudolf's legal wife.