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View Poll Results: Nanoha StrikerS - Overall series rating | |||
Perfect 10 | 47 | 15.99% | |
9 out of 10 : Excellent | 52 | 17.69% | |
8 out of 10 : Very Good | 57 | 19.39% | |
7 out of 10 : Good | 62 | 21.09% | |
6 out of 10 : Average | 44 | 14.97% | |
5 out of 10 : Below Average | 8 | 2.72% | |
4 out of 10 : Poor | 11 | 3.74% | |
3 out of 10 : Bad | 3 | 1.02% | |
2 out of 10 : Very Bad | 1 | 0.34% | |
1 out of 10 : Painful | 9 | 3.06% | |
Voters: 294. You may not vote on this poll |
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Thread Tools |
2009-09-15, 08:57 | Link #281 |
Grumpy Russian bear
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1. "Maximum power limit in unit" law was created because "elite all-powerful unit" is good when you have solid base for them to stay on. Without this law it will either result in small number of elite units that gathered most powerful mages and overall bunch that can't do anything in serious crisis... scratch that - anything at all. And it is much worse then don't having "spearhead" elite units at all. Or it will result in bureaucratic nightmare when every transfer of AA and higher mages would require enormous amount of paperwork and time. Or most likely both. Low-level unit erosion is very bad at TSAB as it is.
2. Limiters are official cheat to that law or it would again return to bureaucratic paper nightmare because people are people with all they quirks and such thing as transfer because of personal reasons can require such shortcut for it being on one side quick and on other side personal and not strong mage hoarding. (And you want to allow such transfers, because if strong mage say "to hell with it" and retires from TSAB career... ups!) 3. And RF6 is NOT elite unit. IIRC it barely passed as experimental one. And it's NOT in any way part of Mid defense btw - except in case of emergency in which... limiters were thrown out of window immediately. And for that there is time-proved answer. "Then we will call another unit." BTW RF6 had not 3 but 5 S class and another one passed as "civilian" (Shamal).
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2009-09-15, 10:15 | Link #282 | |
Adeptus Animus
Author
Join Date: Jan 2007
Age: 36
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Quote:
Nanoha is still an S-rank mage in a unit with a lot of AA+ members. To be frank, having the bureaucracy accept this excuse is one of the silly things about it. Sure, Nanoha is limited to AA-rank out of combat, but when pandemonium happens, the entire unit hops back to elite status with the push of a button. In other words: Whether they have or don't have limiters changes nothing. |
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2009-09-15, 12:29 | Link #284 |
Adeptus Animus
Author
Join Date: Jan 2007
Age: 36
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Limiters are active whenever there isn't an emergency, and are disabled whenever there is... explain to me what the use of these limiters is then.
Again, there are still high-level mages hoarded in one unit. Limiting does not make them lower level. If the entire point is to make the units equal in power, then those limits would remain on even in emergency situations. As it stands now, its no different than giving a unit special gear, and have them store it away when needed. Just because its stored away doesn't mean all other squads don't know about it, or will find out when that unit enters the fray. |
2009-09-15, 18:24 | Link #285 |
Grumpy Russian bear
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Everyday work? Having better mages help at it too. And multidimensional crisis is not everyday encounter even for TSAB. Better mages with limiters aren't very helpful in "my unit is better then yours" game and "we did best of all so i will get promotion" game, and that "games" are why "power limit" law was made in first place.
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2009-09-16, 07:15 | Link #286 |
~ Your Smile ~
Author
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: 346Pro
Age: 38
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Simply put, this is but one of many flaws in portrayals of TSAB that pretty much convinces us that it doesn't deserve to rule all known realms... but somehow do. So in a sense, I believe that this is a case of "something's broken, but it does not affect the whole body".
Let's start with limiters. This limiter thing was invented by Riot 6 to circumvent the operational guideline, by no means anyone would bother hardcoding it into law or even a constitution; laws and constituitions bother with other kinds of matters. Back to the guidelines: I've always believed that Regius & the High Council obstructed the formation of Riot 6 specifically because it would directly threaten their pet project. Of course they can't say that, so they use every other "legitimate" excuse, however remote, to clamp and crimp on them. This could be: - Repeatedly highlighting their "ex-criminal" status: I can imagine Auris and other like-minded officials bringing it up every time Riot 6 was mentioned) - Giving them little to no equipment or personnel: The empty halls in a base in the middle of nowhere without a forward firebase or platform like Asura was. Instead, they got a platoon of cooks to serve their enormous appetites! - Pressing on them with ridiculous rules and regulations that could've been waived easily: Limiters. Hence, this "1 Ace per battle-force" got pressed on them hard, and in order to go around it, the Riot 6 simply followed the Rules As Written rather than Rules As Intended, which was via the limiters, since the guidelines forgot to state whether or not it applied to their permanent or transient magic rank. In any other situation, had let's say a high-level task force was needed to combat a powerful group of rogues that has been so far running amok in a precinct as Leti once did, or even if Regius cobbled together Aces doggedly loyal to him into a force that served Riot 6's "purpose", this would not have been a problem. The Brass would've had some grumbles, but otherwise approved it for the greater good. But not Riot 6; I believe this entire fiasco has all been a solely political exception made on Riot 6 by Regius and the High Council pulling strings. I can go on and list all the other things in canon that can be explained by this top-down conspiracy, but ultimately that this is why the High Council system of rule ultimately fails this dystopia. As much as canon depicts TSAB as a utopic world order, I refuse to see it as such. But if Force and Vivid show that the Bureau is able to change, there is hope for this useless organization yet. In the mean time, expect the fallout from the Jail Incident to increase, however the canon works downplay it. I've come now to see canon releases as propaganda released by TSAB for viewing of it's people, and as such deliberately leaves out certain unsightly details. You could even blame the excessive fanservice as a means for the Bureau to blind their people to the darker truth! However, the spin doctors aren't perfect; they mention some things and blot out the others, not realizing that it causes everything to not make total sense. Once you take the canon that you are given with a pinch of salt, you will begin to see things in greater clarity, how such conundrums can exist in spite of the stability of the greater picture. "This city fears me. For I have seen its true face."
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2009-09-16, 11:46 | Link #287 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2008
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http://asnano.wordpress.com/2007/10/...dvd-3-booklet/ or : 出力リミッター/能力限定 – Output Limiter / Ability restriction The set total number of mage ranks within each unit is basically an ambiguous standard, depending on connections or left to the whims of a Human Resources officer, which is used to prevent any particular unit from amassing powerful mages. Unlike equipment, this measurement can fluctuate (mage ranks can go up or down depending on examinations and updates). Since “Rank = the level of ability” is not true, these Limiter settings can be used to accommodate the rank restrictions to some extent, and there is an tacit understanding of this loophole. Limiters for high ranking mages normally restrict only output, and can only be released in extreme situations after receiving approval. This is similar to how a normal organization is restricted from carrying excessive weaponry during normal missions, only using such equipment in times of emergency. |
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2009-09-16, 13:32 | Link #288 |
Grumpy Russian bear
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What with this utopia/dystopia thing? TSAB is not one or other. It's "realistic" bureaucratic organization that tries to be on the side of good and usually succeed, but not ideal, have it's flaws and sometimes fail miserably. And i don't see any problem with that. Kha, you sound like person that found that his parents have *oh, noes* SEX with each other. Or that his father/mother is not ideal saint.
unrelated: in post like this i just love my avatar...
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2009-09-16, 14:02 | Link #289 | |
Adeptus Animus
Author
Join Date: Jan 2007
Age: 36
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Sure, in every day work it prevents the Aces from going S-rank full power... but then again, in every day work the Aces wouldn't go S-rank full power anyway. Use of the limiters once again becomes head-tilting. The main use of limiters was to prevent jealousy between units. However, in case of an emergency, the limiters are removed, which means that the unit that has a lot of powerful limited mages will still steal the show in the event of a real emergency. I fail to see how this helps the 'jealousy' in any way. |
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2009-09-16, 15:59 | Link #290 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2008
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Quote:
The limit of rank in unit is to prevent jealousy *and* hogging power. Limiters are a acknowledged loophole in cases where there is high chances of the unit actually needing that power in case of emergencies. Also, the limiters still can't be taken off an unlimited numbers of time (it was said in StrikerS that the limier could only be taken off once every few months or something like that). |
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2009-09-16, 16:29 | Link #291 |
Adeptus Animus
Author
Join Date: Jan 2007
Age: 36
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The great irony is that limiters prevent neither. Even limited, a unit with 4 S-rankers is still a unit with 4 S-rankers. It's still hogging power, but just keeping it bottled until they've got an excuse to use it. Ergo, its still jealousy inducing. This is another of the silly things about the entire limiter plot-device.
And the limiter time thing was just that it'd take time for Chrono to regain permission to release Hayate's limiter. Chrono and Carim are from the Navy and Saint Church, after all. Hayate was under the command of the Ground Forces, so they needed permission themselves in order to release Hayate's limiter. Though they can impose a time limit on the release itself (Chrono gave Hayate 120 minutes in episode 11), such a limit is optional, as no such limit was imposed when Carim released the entire RF6 in episode 20. |
2009-09-16, 16:41 | Link #292 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2007
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Well I always thought that limiters in StrikerS were a really stupid plot device, but there is one plausible explenation for their existence. TSAB leaders may fear that really strong mages within their ranks could team up and destroy or take over their organisation. Considering that a single AAA rank and above mage has more firepower that a medium sized Earth country this fear is uderstandable. Don't forget that 90% of Mid citizens aren't mages and 99% of mages wouldn't be able to even scratch an AAA ranked mage. Considering that the vast majority of TSAB soldiers are nothing more than some levitating guys with plasma lances and weak personal shields and their army still use things like helicopters or tanks Nanoha and other elite mages are just as powerfull monsters on Mid as they would be on modern day Earth. If we imagine top class mages as TSAB equivalent of nuclear arsenals it's understandable they want to have some kind of supervision and control over them. I bet normal citizens wouldn't feel safe knowing there are 10y old little girls with enought firepower to vaporise a city running around.
On top of that RF6 gathered many (if not most) of the very best and strongest TSAB mages under the command of a former criminal. If Hayate suddenly decided to turn against TSAB and all her friends followed her she could very well take over the whole organization and become the new Empress or something like that. That's why I think limiters themselves aren't such a bad idea, but the way they were used and explained in StrikerS is plain terrible. They are there to prevent jealousy between units... Really now are TSAB officers little kids or something... ah wait some of them are :P If they were instead showed as tools in corrupted political games between TSAB admirals and factions or as means of forced control of powerfull mages who refused to join TSAB they could become a very good plot device. |
2009-09-16, 18:02 | Link #293 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2008
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Quote:
Limiters are a loophole in the law that's suppose to prevent things. Hence, limiters is a way to "cheat" when the brass think things can go to hell. Also, i am pretty sure Nanoha and Fate's limiters weren't "free" either. We only saw them talking about Hayate's limiter because they didn't need to repeat themselves. and, no, the climax fight was a bit different as they didn't really care about procedure at this point. I am pretty sure you can't go around using an emergency where the birth-world of TSAB can get razed as something to prove the limiters rule are not obeyed even most of the time. |
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2009-09-17, 00:53 | Link #294 | |||||
~ Your Smile ~
Author
Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: 346Pro
Age: 38
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Quote:
"Canon or not, this is nothing but bullshit!" Which force, real or fiction, carries excessive weaponry into a situation knowing full well they are never going to use it?! After all, why would you waste your men's strength carrying all that extra gear?! You bring specialist gear because you know you are going to need it somewhere, be it a TOW missile for a tank, C4s for doors, frag grenades for clearing rooms, etc, stuff that your M203 rifle isn't meant for. You don't need executive orders to ready them either. Sure they have safeties, but that is so that you don't accidentally fire them off. If limiters were there so that high-power Aces could limited their power output so that they don't go and kill themselves from magical strain, maybe there might be some validity in the reason (it's still pretty bad, your body seldom has the capacity to outdo itself!). But no, 7Arcs go and say things that don't make sense! Furthermore, places questions on the Bureau's capacity to administrate. Quote:
*is whacked by Anita's flying dictionary* Bottomline, parents were never depicted to be saints. If we see them as perfect, it's our fault. But this is not the case for the Bureau. It rules all the worlds, that is an idealistic perfection in itself! The Bureau has to be absolutely perfect at everything in order to do that and still have everything running smoothly as seen in canon. If it could make a mistake, it would've never come to existence in the first place! But it can. And so, with the stupidity it demonstrates, it's very easy to guess that somewhere, outside the cozy glasshouse of Midchilda, the fire is burning, and the Jail incident has set a precedent, if not already by Orussia and how many countless warring barons leftover from when the Belka empire collapsed. But we don't see this, simply because we are being controlled to see things as such. Things are too perfect. Heroines always win in the end, no matter the flaws in tactics. This is not reality, this is propaganda. Quote:
And don't tell me to hope for the best due to probablilities. A good unit going to battle is prepared for 99% of the scenarios it could possibly encounter, requiring executive orders for use of frontline firepower is inexplicable. Quote:
Jokes aside, I'd like to point out that the Aces themselves are still only mortal. They can destroy a lot of real estate and could probably tear GFHQ a new one, but after that, the combined might of the entire multiverse bearing down on them will overwhelm them. No way they are going to survive multiple Arcs going off at once from several battlegroups of ships suddenly jumping out from warpspeed from every possible angle. Even if they can, the TSAB combined arms can keep firing and firing and firing by cycling their weapons, and the Aces will eventually tire from all that bombardment to eventually make a mistake, or fail an invulnerable save. TSAB aren't shy of glassing a city to bits if the threat is big enough. Uminari almost got silicated in A's after all. If the top of the top mages are nukes, then there'd better be quicker means for them to be unlimited. Having to stop and call for permission to use their power could mean that a sniper could take them out in a single shot before they can be unlimited. Top mages should've never been deployed in the frontlines as such, and should only be deployed after being unlimited, going by the logic of things. But no, we see the Captains in operation with limits, and then have them pause to have the limits removed, during which a properly-placed railgun slug would've cleaved them. Limiters are just plot-devices protected by other plot devices. But since they exist, we have to accept that they are there, and work things out from there. Quote:
I'll explain. First, let's turn the chessboard over and look at the silly reasons given for limiters from another perspective. What is the purpose for all this? Self-protection? We've pretty much demonstrated otherwise. For the safety of the mage involved? No mention was ever made. So, in the end, what's in it for me as a TSAB official to gimp my troops as such? Nothing, simply because it was all a ruse. I have several SS-down-AA Aces in my arsenal, and they are loyal to me. I'm in a high-ish place, and have many friends in here who are also using this to bring high-level Aces together, despite the rule. Between us, we already have garnered military and civil powers over a huge chunk of dimensions. And we hold the High Council hostage as we already know their dark plans thanks to our vast dealings, but let them be as long as they let us be. After all, we are all making sure that peace remains in the dimensions, just that we're making ourselves fat with power in the process. It's a win-win-win situation. If anyone asks, we laugh it off as silly. But if someone got close to the truth with evidence, we simply break out the spin doctors, charge them with threatening the safety of the dimension, pop limiters and obliterate them before anything can be verified. Limiters come back on, spin docters spin on praising the Aces having protected all Humanity, peace resumes. The cycle repeats itself over and over the years until no one could've stood against us. Hayate is rocking the boat, but we can't move just yet. We wait... Oh look! The High Council is now dead! We're in charge boys! And no one knows what's happened! Peace is eternal now... ...but is that really true peace? ~~~~~~ I know it's extreme, and probably never intended as such by 7Arcs, but after putting all the disparate clues together and throwing out the red herrings, this looks most probable. This is one of the many reasons why in order to operate the way they do, TSAB has a lot more going on in the background than we actually know.
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Last edited by MeisterBabylon; 2009-09-17 at 01:04. |
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2009-09-17, 02:20 | Link #295 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2007
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Quote:
Hayate and friends would (probably) never do such a thing, but somebody will someday. A single AAA class mage would very likely be able to take down the whole TSAB interdimensional HQ by blasting a SB like attack near it's core. TSAB high command and most of it's fleet would be gone in a single strike, along with many of it's best mages (who would die like flies with their limiters active). StrikerS showed TSAB to be so incompetent it's a miracle they still exist. |
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2009-09-17, 07:26 | Link #296 | |
Explodes when thrown
IT Support
Join Date: Jan 2009
Age: 37
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2009-09-17, 13:17 | Link #299 | |
Random Translator
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: New Brunswick
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Seeing that there are Lost Logia's that are borderline otherworldly horrors, government backed mad scientists, and dangerous remnants of lost civilizations running around in their universe. I mean, what the hell? You know, all the infighting of the TSAB kind of reminds me how the Japanese Imperial military (Imperial Navy vs. Imperial Army) had a seriously deficient relationship. I wonder at times if the writers were trying to tap into that...
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2009-09-17, 13:28 | Link #300 | |
Adeptus Animus
Author
Join Date: Jan 2007
Age: 36
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Considering this is a Japanese anime, and the writers most likely just went with what they knew instead of doing deep research... I think that might be possible. |
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