2009-12-29, 12:51 | Link #1881 | |
Member
Join Date: Nov 2006
|
Quote:
then what about Knox's 2nd: It is forbidden for supernatural agencies to be employed as a detective technique. that has a fantasy POV as well to it...
__________________
|
|
2009-12-29, 12:51 | Link #1882 | |
Member
Join Date: May 2009
|
Quote:
Beatrice never said she would use Knox commandments to heart and declare her mystery is an orthodox one. Also, she probably only allowed some of the commandments to remain to allow the game to be more constructive. |
|
2009-12-29, 12:56 | Link #1883 | ||
SS.VDine full steam ahead
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Germany
Age: 32
|
Quote:
5. No Chinaman must figure in the story Like this: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/YellowPeril Well, you could say "No Foreigner must figure in the story" or sth. like that, but it isn't really needed in the EP5 case. EDIT: About Quote:
__________________
|
||
2009-12-29, 13:24 | Link #1884 | ||
Member
Join Date: Nov 2006
|
Quote:
Why show a rule which denies your own existence. That's my theory on why Knox's 5th wasn't displayed.
__________________
|
||
2009-12-29, 13:33 | Link #1885 | |
SS.VDine full steam ahead
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Germany
Age: 32
|
Quote:
I don't think you can use them against a fantasy explanation at all (like: I dissapeared with magic, can magic be called a drug or hidden passage?) , so I guess they are just used to discuss one or two mystery explanations...
__________________
|
|
2009-12-29, 13:38 | Link #1886 |
Aspiring Aspirer
|
However the existence of Knox's fifth still does not deny the existence of a witch, only the possibility that a witch is the culprit.
And the Witch's game board doesn't need to follow all of the decalogue, only enough to make it solvable. If we assume that the decalouge has some holding in the game, it serves as effective red and dramatically reduces the amount of possibilities; leading a single unique answer.
__________________
|
2009-12-29, 13:58 | Link #1887 | |
Member
Join Date: Nov 2006
|
Quote:
lol, I'm gonna make a 4koma based off of the Knox's Commandments, lol. For the 5th i'm gonna have it where, It's unknown, and since it's unknown Battler can fill in what he wants ^.^ Easy Win ^.^
__________________
|
|
2009-12-29, 14:26 | Link #1888 |
Senior Member
|
Just google "Ronald-Knox rules" for the list. http://gadetection.pbworks.com/Ronal...ective+Fiction
|
2009-12-29, 14:38 | Link #1889 |
SS.VDine full steam ahead
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Germany
Age: 32
|
The problem with those is, that the 5th rule would be against the whole story, as they are all "chinamen"...
When mysterys all around the world are discussed with the rules, the 5th can't really be used that way/would change to "foreigners" for example... And because no real person on Rokkenjima is a foreigner (afaik), the rule doesn't need to be included.
__________________
|
2009-12-29, 14:46 | Link #1890 | |
Member
Join Date: Nov 2006
|
Quote:
Knox's 5th: Eastern Mystery theories can not be used in a Western Mystery plot and vice-versa. That's how I interpret the Chinaman part of that dialogue I think that's why it was left out of Umineko, because Umineko involves both.
__________________
|
|
2009-12-29, 14:52 | Link #1892 |
Amry-chan, mii~
Join Date: Nov 2008
|
If I remember correctly, the 'Chinaman' refers to how, around the end of a book, some random person (normally foreigner, hence the name) just comes around and is just shown to be the culprit; this also violates the 1st commandment/rule. It's almost the same as the 1st, though, so adding it in doesn't really add up to anything.
|
2009-12-29, 14:52 | Link #1893 | |
Member
Join Date: Jun 2009
|
Quote:
Therefore, if the detective made a theory that The boat captain is the culprit!, it wouldn't even need to be discussed. The 5th simply removes such a minor character from consideration. To clarify- the 5th reinforces the assertion that there must be proper clues and foreshadowing. Many bad mystery writers in Knox's day would have just a single sentence, like "Mr. xxxx had a Chinaman working for him" with nothing more said on the subject, and then at the end the detective would reveal this Chinaman to be the culprit. But "Chinaman" is just an analogy for any character without enough development to be made a valid suspect by the reader. |
|
2009-12-29, 14:54 | Link #1894 | |
Member
Join Date: Nov 2006
|
Quote:
__________________
|
|
2009-12-29, 15:03 | Link #1895 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Buffer overflow
|
Okay, just to clarify things, because this has come up over and over again.
Knox's 5th does not mean "a foreign-ish person cannot be the culprit". It addresses a specific trend in Western detective novels at the time and therefore has no relevance to Umineko. Ryuukishi could have used it if he wanted to, but he would be forced to change it from it's original intended meaning.
__________________
|
2009-12-29, 15:12 | Link #1896 | |
Member
Join Date: Nov 2006
|
Quote:
Especially since in the Tea Party, he was asking what were the Knox Decalogues, lol. When they were being explained, I didn't hear about the 5th, so I was wondering as well... lol. Since it doesn't mention anything about it in Umineko, I guess I can just fill in what I want for it ^.^ Let my Imagination go wild ^.^
__________________
|
|
2009-12-29, 15:13 | Link #1897 | |
SS.VDine full steam ahead
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Germany
Age: 32
|
Quote:
__________________
|
|
2009-12-29, 15:15 | Link #1898 |
Member
Join Date: Dec 2006
|
I suppose if there were an equivalent to Knox's 5th in the Umineko universe, it would be:
It is forbidden for a stranger of unknown origins to be the culprit. Which doesn't really apply to this story, because everyone knows each other. It would be like if Erika happened to be there in every game from the start, wasn't the detective, and turned out to be behind everything. It's just a device to prevent an easy scapegoat from cheapening the story. |
2009-12-29, 15:22 | Link #1899 |
do you know ベアトリーチェ様?
Join Date: Dec 2003
Age: 35
|
Like chronotrig mentioned, Knox's 5th involves a trend in Western detective fiction in which some villain of Oriental origin was used as a sort of cheap stock ending (kind of similar to the "bastard" in Shakespeare's time).
I wouldn't read too much into its exclusion. |
2009-12-29, 15:30 | Link #1900 | |
Member
Join Date: Jun 2009
|
Moving along, let's bring things back to the murders for the time being. I had a few thoughts I'd like nitpicked.
With regards to Renall's post earlier: Quote:
Krauss was also a 'victim' of the first twilight. He even had his room prepared to fake his death the same as the others. And I have trouble placing him in a scheme to expose his wife for hiding Kinzo's death. Or murdering an adopted child and maid. Jessica either- her protectiveness of her parents is obvious. Better to think that the 'murders' were a ploy the family made up during the late night conference to entertain their surprise guest. Natsuhi was ordered not to speak to anyone or accept any calls by the REAL killer, in order to isolate her from the plan and make her a 'suspect'. The rest of the family probably never realized that Natsuhi wasn't actually acting. She was probably intended to take the suspects role (by the killer's suggestion) and the killer falsely told everyone else she was in on the plan. The killer had taken Krauss from his room and detained him someplace, and after threatening Natsuhi, killed Krauss and then hunted down the other 'victims' where they were hiding. During the search for Kinzo, Natsuhi gets cornered pretty easily by Erika and the rest of the family. The killer's plan is not to indite Natsuhi for hiding Kinzo's death, so either the killer stifles Erika's arguments by quickly accepting Battler's explanation for how Kinzo escaped, or Battler himself is the killer and rescued Natsuhi in order to squeeze the real confession he wants out of her. Natsuhi later goes to hide in the closet as planned, and some time later, Hideyoshi finds the room he was directed to, locks himself in, and does a brief bereaved father act before faking his death. Both Kyrie and Battler use some misdirection to prevent Erika from looking inside the closet. I have trouble finding this coincidental. Maybe the original plan was for Natsuhi to be hiding there in the first place. Or maybe it wasn't, and one of them is the killer preventing their plan from unraveling. Either way, Natsuhi evades Erika's notice, and escapes from the room, only to be found by Erika and dragged back to the parlor, where she does her whole detective show. To everyone's surprise, Natsuhi breaks down and admits to the murders of the maid and the baby. But then Battler makes some rather creepy 'It's all useless' statements, and Natsuhi gasps. End. Obvious suspects: Battler. Kyrie. Both of them hindered Erika at a few key turns that might have brought things into a new light. Battler in particular. Less obvious suspects: Eva. She was the only one whose emotions seemed genuine this episode aside from Natsuhi. Also: Anyone who agreed to Battler's explanation for how Kinzo escaped his room and prevented Erika from countering. Even less obvious suspects: Hideyoshi. If he faked his death, he had plenty of time to go kill the victims. Also, he put on a show in that locked room despite there not being anyone to benefit from it. Unless he knew Natsuhi was in the closet. Impossible suspects: One of the other victims. They were all killed by other people. So one of the apparent victims killing the others and then committing suicide is out of the question. |
|
|
|