AnimeSuki Forums

anime fan99 · 2015-01-03, 22:14

Do you need to do The Prologue every time after Finishing the Fate" Route

and about Studio Deen Fate/stay night anime it was my introduction to the Fate universe and I know Believe me, I know the series has many flaws, but in the end of the day Studio Deen Fate/stay night anime will always have a special place in my heart

GDB · 2015-01-03, 22:15

No, prologue is one time only unless you want to do it manually.

At least, that's how it is on the full version. Not sure if it's different for the ones that separate each route.

DragoZERO · 2015-01-04, 08:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amarantine

I haven't read them myself, but I remember hearing somewhere that Nasu revealed in side materials that Archer remembered everything as soon as Rin told him her name.

Quote:

Originally Posted by GDB

^ This. Though he always knew who he was, it wasn't until Rin said her name that he realized where and when he was and the people he used to know.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lorhand

I'll just quote side material:

OK, I was remembering something like that. Thanks, all.

AC-Phoenix · 2015-01-05, 00:01

Thing that is bugging me for a while now, regarding the grail war...

Spoiler for Some stuff from the Type Moon Wiki and Tsukihime included:

TwilightsCall · 2015-01-05, 06:07

A few reasons I can think of...

The Grail War might be a big deal in the Fate series, but that doesn't mean it's necessarily famous across magi/dead apostles across the world. So first, they would even have to know it exists, and when it was occurring. Then they can start thinking about participating.

Secondly, Dead Apostles aren't necessarily all that strong. If the Grail doesn't select them as a Master, I wouldn't think they really had the power necessary to force their way into the war. The only one who's shown themselves capable of doing this was Kirei, but he's a special case in a lot of ways. Most Servants probably wouldn't let a Dead Apostle get that close to their Master.

Thirdly, due to the way Dead Apostles propagate and develop their strength, they are strongly tied to a specific location. Of course, this doesn't apply to all of them, but for the most part once they've decided an area, they fortify themselves within it for their own protection. Leaving that protection is rather dangerous, and leaving it to participate in a death game seems kind of like asking to die.

Fourthly, the greatest enemy of Dead Apostles is the Church. Busting in to a ritual overseen by the Church and causing problems would be a death sentence.

So while there are Dead apostles that could certainly participate, and probably do fairly well, in the Grail War, its a large risk that entitles leaving behind all of their protections that they've built up for themselves at best, and just plain assisted suicide at worst. I don't think it's surprising that none of them have bothered to participate.

GreyZone · 2015-01-05, 07:31

Also wouldn't a Dark Apostle interfering with the 5th HGW and facing Archer cause a conflict between Gaia and Alaya?

Levani · 2015-01-05, 07:44

Did Kiritsugu knew about Lesser Grail/Greater Grail stuff? And since Ilya knew everything about Angra Mainyu, does this mean Irisviel did too? If so, why didn't she warn Kerry?

Oh and do we know what Waver was up to during 5th war? I can't imagine that he wouldn't get himself involved at all.

Lorhand · 2015-01-05, 08:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by Levani

Did Kiritsugu knew about Lesser Grail/Greater Grail stuff? And since Ilya knew everything about Angra Mainyu, does this mean Irisviel did too? If so, why didn't she warn Kerry?

Oh and do we know what Waver was up to during 5th war? I can't imagine that he wouldn't get himself involved at all.

Kiritsugu's task was to win the war and get back the Third Magic, and if what Kirei said was true, the Einzberns taught him everything about the Grail War. He knew about the Grail system. Also, he placed bombs near the leylines that lead to the Greater Grail beneath the Ryuudou Temple. Unfortunately, they were supposed to detonate 30-40 years after the Fourth War. He didn't realize the next War would happen in only ten years. Iri probably didn't know the Grail was corrupted, the Einzberns must have found out what went wrong after Kiritsugu destroyed the Lesser Grail.

Waver... well, I don't know what Waver was doing, but the Association sent their agents to Fuyuki. One was Bazett, the other from an enemy faction inside the Clock Tower that Bazett later killed. Kirei also kind of counted as an agent, as he was the supervisor who worked for both the Church and the Association.

Levani · 2015-01-05, 08:22

If the Nazi mages found out what made Kiritsugu destroy the Lesser Grail, why were they such assholes towards him later? Couldn't they let him see Ilya at least. Oh right, Nazi mages.

Dengar · 2015-01-05, 08:45

They sent him out to do a task. Not only did he fail that task, he chose deliberately to fail that task. What reason WOULD they have to welcome him back?

Levani · 2015-01-05, 08:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dengar

They sent him out to do a task. Not only did he fail that task, he chose deliberately to fail that task. What reason WOULD they have to welcome him back?

The fact that he saved their asses from total destruction by Angra Mainyu should at least let them reconsider their hostile decisions.

Lorhand · 2015-01-05, 08:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by Levani

If the Nazi mages found out what made Kiritsugu destroy the Lesser Grail, why were they such assholes towards him later? Couldn't they let him see Ilya at least. Oh right, Nazi mages.

The Einzberns weren't and aren't Nazis, they isolated themselves for a thousand years from the rest of the world, and as a German I am asking you to stop using "Nazi" to refer to them, just because they are German.

The Einzberns don't care whether it would lead to the destruction of the world or mankind, as long as they get back the Third Magic. As if magi in general care about anything but knowledge and power. Rin was almost sentenced to suffer unfair consequences by the whole Clock Tower after what happened in HF, too. It's fact Kiritsugu betrayed them and they had no intention to let Kiritsugu take away their insurance. Both Kiritsugu and Iri knew what would happen to Ilya, if the two of them failed to win the Grail.

Levani · 2015-01-05, 08:54

Quote:

The Einzberns weren't and aren't Nazis, they isolated themselves for a thousand years from the rest of the world, and as a German I am asking you to stop using "Nazi" to refer to them, just because they are German.

It's just a joke and you know that very well, I called them Nazis because of their cruelty. I don't know why you take it so personally. Victimization trend at its finest.

Lorhand · 2015-01-05, 09:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Levani

It's just a joke and you know that very well, I called them Nazis because of their cruelty. I don't know why you take it so personally. Victimization trend at its finest.

It's not a funny joke. I certainly didn't laugh.

Levani · 2015-01-05, 09:03

Look, the word Nazi has changed its definition on the internet, it's part of pop culture now and is usually never taken seriously. You are German, you aren't discriminated by this, you live in one of the best countries in the world and you are part of one of the most richest cultures ever. Nazi thing happened and no German today has anything to do with what happened decades ago. Move on and don't be offended on such things. If it's not funny, shrug it off because my intentions weren't an insult towards German culture. Bad joke, I admit it, it was a bad joke and I'm sorry if I offended you.

TwilightsCall · 2015-01-05, 09:22

Quote:

Also wouldn't a Dark Apostle interfering with the 5th HGW and facing Archer cause a conflict between Gaia and Alaya?

Possibly, but considering Archer is acting as a familiar and not as an agent of Alaya for his role in the Grail War, I suspect it wouldn't be too much of an issue.

Quote:

Did Kiritsugu knew about Lesser Grail/Greater Grail stuff? And since Ilya knew everything about Angra Mainyu, does this mean Irisviel did too? If so, why didn't she warn Kerry?

He either did know or he found out later, because as Lorhand said, he took measures to destroy the Greater Grail in the end.

I find it very hard to believe Kiritsugu or the Einzberns had any knowledge of the Grail being corrupted. First of all, the corruption wouldn't be apparent until the fourth war, so there was no real opportunity for them to warn him beforehand. Irisviel's behaviour in F/Z also is strong evidence that the Einzberns had no idea, as she wouldn't have worked so hard to protect Kiritsugu's dream if she knew the Grail wouldn't be able to accomplish it. She's much too honest of a person for that.

Quote:

Iri probably didn't know the Grail was corrupted, the Einzberns must have found out what went wrong after Kiritsugu destroyed the Lesser Grail.

Considering their rather closeted attitudes, I suspect they didn't even figure out what went wrong after Kiritsugu destroyed the grail. They probably weren't willing to listen to Kiritsugu at all (hence him not being able to get through the Boundary Field to reach the Einzbern castle...) so he probably never even had the chance to explain himself. As such, my suspicion is that the Einzberns didn't know about the grail corruption...and probably still don't. Illya probably figured it out for herself once she got to Fuyuki, and unfortunately for everyone involved she never made it back to make a report.

She could have told Sella and Leysritt, and they may have gone back and told them, but we have no word as to what happened to those two after F/SN so it's anyone's guess at that point afaik.

Levani · 2015-01-05, 09:28

Quote:

He either did know or he found out later, because as Lorhand said, he took measures to destroy the Greater Grail in the end.

I find it very hard to believe Kiritsugu or the Einzberns had any knowledge of the Grail being corrupted. First of all, the corruption wouldn't be apparent until the fourth war, so there was no real opportunity for them to warn him beforehand. Irisviel's behaviour in F/Z also is strong evidence that the Einzberns had no idea, as she wouldn't have worked so hard to protect Kiritsugu's dream if she knew the Grail wouldn't be able to accomplish it. She's much too honest of a person for that.

Yeah, I don't doubt Iri, I was just curious if it was known.

Oh and how did human Angra Mainyu become all the evil of the world? It said that the Grail did this but does this imply that Angra Mainyu won the third war and his wish became a reality? How would that be possible, considering that he was very weak?

GDB · 2015-01-05, 09:32

He was a normal human sacrificed by his tribe/people as a scapegoat for all the world's evils. They then worshipped him as a god of evil. As with many heroic spirits, legend and reality got mixed upon his summoning. He was the first Servant defeated, and when his soul entered the Grail, the Grail was instantly corrupted.

Levani · 2015-01-05, 09:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by GDB

He was a normal human sacrificed by his tribe/people as a scapegoat for all the world's evils. They then worshipped him as a god of evil. As with many heroic spirits, legend and reality got mixed upon his summoning. He was the first Servant defeated, and when his soul entered the Grail, the Grail was instantly corrupted.

I see. Thank you, that makes sense.

I gotta say, I love this part of Fate, using real legends, myths and gods.

TwilightsCall · 2015-01-05, 10:30

GDB basically answered it, but because I'm a nerd I'll throw in my two cents as well 8D

Basically, any evil Heroic Spirit would have corrupted the grail. That's why until the third war, all heroic spirits summoned were "true heroic spirits," or those who were "not evil," for lack of a better term to describe them.

Einzbern tried to cheat during the third war by summoning Angra Mainyu, breaking the "no baddies" rule, but they got cheated themselves as the true identity of Angra Mainyu was just a guy who had been sacrificed as a scapegoat as GDB said, so he had no real combat ability. Because he was fundamentally evil, however, when he was defeated and taken in by the purely-neutral grail, the entire thing adopted his evilness.

And so in being taken into the Grail, Angra Mainyu basically became the thing that the Einzberns were trying to summon - an evil god with the power to destroy the world. The fallout of the Grail being corrupted and attempting to destroy the world is a result of the now super-charged Angra Mainyu attempting to leave the Grail and return to the real world - a feat that can only be accomplished if someone wins the Grail and makes a wish.

2015-01-03, 22:14	Link #5541
anime fan99 Senior Member Join Date: May 2012	Do you need to do The Prologue every time after Finishing the Fate" Route and about Studio Deen Fate/stay night anime it was my introduction to the Fate universe and I know Believe me, I know the series has many flaws, but in the end of the day Studio Deen Fate/stay night anime will always have a special place in my heart __________________

2015-01-05, 00:01	Link #5544
AC-Phoenix Detective Join Date: Aug 2010 Age: 36	Thing that is bugging me for a while now, regarding the grail war... Spoiler for Some stuff from the Type Moon Wiki and Tsukihime included: From the Type Moon wiki we know that Archer's Red overcoat is apparently a gift from Ciel so... I kinda wonder why the Death apostels don't care about the holy grail war... Whatever their goal is, the grail would certainly serve it well. On the other hand, the Church wouldn't even have to bother sending someone there since the heroic spirits would probably aknowledge them as a threat and take care of them before they can do any real damage. Yet they could still serve as masters themselves. - We also know that not only Ciel exists in the Fate story but also Arcueid and the death apostels as one is seen in Zero. UJust something that makes me wonder for a while now. __________________ Those who forget about the past are condemned to repeat it - Santayana Sidenote: I'm seemingly too dumb for my current keyboard, so if you see the same character twice in a row, when it doesn't belong there just ignore it.

2015-01-05, 07:31	Link #5546
GreyZone "Senior" "Member" Join Date: Jan 2012	Also wouldn't a Dark Apostle interfering with the 5th HGW and facing Archer cause a conflict between Gaia and Alaya? __________________

2015-01-03, 22:15	Link #5542
GDB Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Age: 38	No, prologue is one time only unless you want to do it manually. At least, that's how it is on the full version. Not sure if it's different for the ones that separate each route.

2015-01-05, 06:07	Link #5545
TwilightsCall Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2011 Location: Tokyo, Japan Age: 33	A few reasons I can think of... The Grail War might be a big deal in the Fate series, but that doesn't mean it's necessarily famous across magi/dead apostles across the world. So first, they would even have to know it exists, and when it was occurring. Then they can start thinking about participating. Secondly, Dead Apostles aren't necessarily all that strong. If the Grail doesn't select them as a Master, I wouldn't think they really had the power necessary to force their way into the war. The only one who's shown themselves capable of doing this was Kirei, but he's a special case in a lot of ways. Most Servants probably wouldn't let a Dead Apostle get that close to their Master. Thirdly, due to the way Dead Apostles propagate and develop their strength, they are strongly tied to a specific location. Of course, this doesn't apply to all of them, but for the most part once they've decided an area, they fortify themselves within it for their own protection. Leaving that protection is rather dangerous, and leaving it to participate in a death game seems kind of like asking to die. Fourthly, the greatest enemy of Dead Apostles is the Church. Busting in to a ritual overseen by the Church and causing problems would be a death sentence. So while there are Dead apostles that could certainly participate, and probably do fairly well, in the Grail War, its a large risk that entitles leaving behind all of their protections that they've built up for themselves at best, and just plain assisted suicide at worst. I don't think it's surprising that none of them have bothered to participate.

2015-01-05, 07:44	Link #5547
Levani 貴方が私のマスターか？ Join Date: Jul 2014 Location: Georgia, Tbilisi	Did Kiritsugu knew about Lesser Grail/Greater Grail stuff? And since Ilya knew everything about Angra Mainyu, does this mean Irisviel did too? If so, why didn't she warn Kerry? Oh and do we know what Waver was up to during 5th war? I can't imagine that he wouldn't get himself involved at all.

2015-01-05, 08:22	Link #5549
Levani 貴方が私のマスターか？ Join Date: Jul 2014 Location: Georgia, Tbilisi	If the Nazi mages found out what made Kiritsugu destroy the Lesser Grail, why were they such assholes towards him later? Couldn't they let him see Ilya at least. Oh right, Nazi mages.

2015-01-05, 08:45	Link #5550
Dengar Kamen Rider Muppeteer Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: Unknown Age: 39	They sent him out to do a task. Not only did he fail that task, he chose deliberately to fail that task. What reason WOULD they have to welcome him back?

2015-01-05, 09:03	Link #5555
Levani 貴方が私のマスターか？ Join Date: Jul 2014 Location: Georgia, Tbilisi	Look, the word Nazi has changed its definition on the internet, it's part of pop culture now and is usually never taken seriously. You are German, you aren't discriminated by this, you live in one of the best countries in the world and you are part of one of the most richest cultures ever. Nazi thing happened and no German today has anything to do with what happened decades ago. Move on and don't be offended on such things. If it's not funny, shrug it off because my intentions weren't an insult towards German culture. Bad joke, I admit it, it was a bad joke and I'm sorry if I offended you.

2015-01-05, 09:32	Link #5558
GDB Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Age: 38	He was a normal human sacrificed by his tribe/people as a scapegoat for all the world's evils. They then worshipped him as a god of evil. As with many heroic spirits, legend and reality got mixed upon his summoning. He was the first Servant defeated, and when his soul entered the Grail, the Grail was instantly corrupted.

2015-01-05, 10:30	Link #5560
TwilightsCall Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2011 Location: Tokyo, Japan Age: 33	GDB basically answered it, but because I'm a nerd I'll throw in my two cents as well 8D Basically, any evil Heroic Spirit would have corrupted the grail. That's why until the third war, all heroic spirits summoned were "true heroic spirits," or those who were "not evil," for lack of a better term to describe them. Einzbern tried to cheat during the third war by summoning Angra Mainyu, breaking the "no baddies" rule, but they got cheated themselves as the true identity of Angra Mainyu was just a guy who had been sacrificed as a scapegoat as GDB said, so he had no real combat ability. Because he was fundamentally evil, however, when he was defeated and taken in by the purely-neutral grail, the entire thing adopted his evilness. And so in being taken into the Grail, Angra Mainyu basically became the thing that the Einzberns were trying to summon - an evil god with the power to destroy the world. The fallout of the Grail being corrupted and attempting to destroy the world is a result of the now super-charged Angra Mainyu attempting to leave the Grail and return to the real world - a feat that can only be accomplished if someone wins the Grail and makes a wish.