Ore no Imouto - Light Novel & Manga Discussion Thread

[larethian]

The problem is, this wasn't a 'harem' series when it started but turned into one...... romance with other girls is more like a subplot to move the siblings' relationship dynamics to me, and it didn't even start till v5.
When the author 'force-fit' Kanako into the mix of people 'dere' towards Kyousuke, it became a blatant problem for me.

[Vexx]

Originally Posted by larethian

The problem is, this wasn't a 'harem' series when it started but turned into one...... romance with other girls is more like a subplot to move the siblings' relationship dynamics to me, and it didn't even start till v5.
When the author 'force-fit' Kanako into the mix of people 'dere' towards Kyousuke, it became a blatant problem for me.

It wouldn't be the first time someone set up a great story premise but then didn't lay out the framework for the entire epic, tripping and stumbling at the end or even crashing outright with some kind of "pulled out of the air" ending.

However, not calling anything until the last page given this author's obvious enjoyment of pulling the chains of different fan factions.

[GVN.Chaos]

Originally Posted by larethian

The problem is, this wasn't a 'harem' series when it started but turned into one...... romance with other girls is more like a subplot to move the siblings' relationship dynamics to me, and it didn't even start till v5.
When the author 'force-fit' Kanako into the mix of people 'dere' towards Kyousuke, it became a blatant problem for me.

True, but that also meant that author might not actually planed the story to turn out this way, and he might not prepared a framework before hand. In this case, anything is possible, simply because he had been affected once, he would be affected again.

[relentlessflame]

I've said this before (back when the first anime season aired in particular), but I personally basically saw this as a "harem" premise (with Kirino as a central member) from early-on, even though the actual "candidates" started adding up in a serious way as it went on. I've always felt that the view that the whole story was just about "sibling relationship dynamics" with no romantic implications was, at best, an incomplete interpretation of what was really being shown. To me, it's sort of like "where there's smoke, there's fire"; people kept trying to view the story as one thing, but the evidence kept adding up the other way as it went along. So I have a little bit of a hard time buying the "the premise changed" or "it wasn't planned" argument. Of course, no LN author necessarily knows how many volumes their story will last, but I do think there's a pretty linear progression between where things started and where things ended up.

[Vexx]

Yeah, (speculation obviously since he isn't telling) but the way the story reads I think he pretty much had the addition of interesting possibilities mapped out for the most part from the start. So he's set up this massive Jenga situation on purpose. I remain curious to see how he executes the crash (or the winning deconstruction).

I still think having him initially connect with Kuroneko and then "pausing" that path is something that I don't recall seeing too often in this kind of set up.

[relentlessflame]

Originally Posted by Vexx

I still think having him initially connect with Kuroneko and then "pausing" that path is something that I don't recall seeing too often in this kind of set up.

Yeah, this is a bit of a page from the shounen romance playbook -- I'm thinking stories like Ichigo 100% here. To be honest, as much as they've been throwing more candidates into the mix recently, I do still fundamentally see the story as a romantic triangle at its core. (I note that all of the anime promo material for this second season also emphasizes this aspect.) My view is still that the recent Ayase developments are essentially a red herring (along with the other "candidates"). And in that sense, I still envision the ending going back to Kuroneko and Kirino in the end, to finish dealing with the "pause" from earlier. Resolving things with Kirino was, in fact, the key requirement to unpausing that situation.

I totally agree with you that what will be interesting to see is how the pieces fall into place at the end, and particularly just how "conclusive" he decides to make it.

[larethian]

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

I've said this before (back when the first anime season aired in particular), but I personally basically saw this as a "harem" premise (with Kirino as a central member) from early-on, even though the actual "candidates" started adding up in a serious way as it went on. I've always felt that the view that the whole story was just about "sibling relationship dynamics" with no romantic implications was, at best, an incomplete interpretation of what was really being shown. To me, it's sort of like "where there's smoke, there's fire"; people kept trying to view the story as one thing, but the evidence kept adding up the other way as it went along. So I have a little bit of a hard time buying the "the premise changed" or "it wasn't planned" argument. Of course, no LN author necessarily knows how many volumes their story will last, but I do think there's a pretty linear progression between where things started and where things ended up.

First of all, no offense, but your opinion, as well as those who are of the same view as you, is as good as mine (and those who are of the same view as me). Or should I say it the other way round, that, mine is as good as yours?

I must also point out that, my judgement is definitely not clouded because I'm against a work on sibling-romance, because I'm not against a work of this sort. I've played my fair share of eroge with sis-ends and I also enjoyed a very old, touching, Korean drama series that openly touched on sibling romance.

With regards to 'mis-interpretation', I could say likewise when people are trying to assert that this was meant to be a 'soft-incestuous story' right from the get-go, when some of them haven't read the story from the get-go. Either that, or they too choose to see what they want to see (I'll come back to this point at the end). Anyway. this might not mean a thing, but OreImo was originally a one-shot, so it's totally possible that the plan or direction has changed, especially if it's to capitalize on its popularity to certain groups of audience, given its (later) success in its dating sim franchise. Granted, I agreed on Vexx's point that he had created a set of 'viable options' to take on the romance (sub)plot; aside from Kuro, Ayase is fine, Saori is good, but when suddenly, in the most jarring way, Kanako gets thrown in to strengthen his harem hold, it does create quite a 'WTF is this!?' stir in me. And I've never thought that the premise has changed since all along, I've seen the premise to be about "Kyou-Kiri's relationship", and it pretty much remains at that. What changed for me was how Kyousuke got a harem at an accelerated rate. Well, it's not totally unexpected or unthinkable to have a group of girls falling for Kyou; things like Ayase's setup was pretty much in the pipeline, but why Kanako (this primarily is the basis behind my jab that it has turned into a harem-focused series)? Anyway, can someone explain this (why Kanako) to me? The execution rubbed me off the wrong way and left much to be desired. But anyhow, overall, I still see 'harem/romance' as a subplot and not the main premise.

With regards to 'mounting evidence', I hope you are coming from the perspective of someone who has read the novels since volume 1, including the author's afterwords. Most of these 'evidence' I see suggested in this thread with reference to earlier volumes cannot be called 'evidence' imo (like playing Imouto eroge and supposed 'sexual' tension), but merely used for comedic effect (when I read those, what came to my mind was 'www'). It's only in the later volumes, that the evidence can be said to be 'truly mounting', but even so, they are not yet absolute enough to me that I can totally forget about dismissing them as possible pandering or comedy tools. If you are coming from that perspective (as a novel reader), then we can agree to disagree.

While I'm sure there are some readers, like VVolf, who are holding the same view as you, there are also quite a number of us who see otherwise, like karice and Undertaker (who are more veteran LN readers than someone like me), among others, though I'm not sure what their current positions are. Like I mentioned, I'm not against a work on brother-sister romance, but for me, when I read the first few volumes, I just don't get the 'feeling' that it will be a story on brother-sister romance. Yes, it's a feeling and I can't explain it. Call it lame or illogical or whatever, but the writing did not sing that tune to me.

Back to the topic on choosing the way things are seen by different people. I'm sure we all have a bias as to how we see things, and I can agree that many things you have suggested are valid possibilities. But I would not agree that they can be taken as objective definite proofs and evidences.

All in all, we know your view, and you know ours (myself + those on the opposing camp), that's why I stopped repeating myself since hundreds of posts ago, and continue to wait and see. And we just have to wait for v12 to see which of our interpretation is more 'correct'. Or we may never know for sure, depending on how the author chooses to end it.

(Looking at the time now, I really regret writing this post, but I'll regret it more if I delete it without posting. It's hard to write a post to bring across my thoughts and without sounding overly offensive. And pardon my English and dis-jointedness since I kept getting interrupted. Hopefully this is the last one I make here till June.

Peace.)

[icebreaker]

I don't see how this wasn't planned from the start. People seem to think that Ayase's confession isn't justified when actually she had more build up than Kuroneko before Volume 5. So compared to Kuroneko, who had one solid Volume dedicated to her build up, Ayase's build up is more spread out but is definitely not something the author pulled out to make this into a harem joke. I agree that Kanako's build up is a joke though, but it seems like there is space to re-interpret her actions. She could have been trying to mess with the other girls all along without actually having feelings for Kyousuke, ie. she won't do anything at all in Volume 12.

And I disagree on the core of this series being a love-triangle. I see the core of this series being "how everything that has happened in these 2 years affect the relationship between Kyousuke and Kirino." Explains why the novels always have Kyousuke and Kirino only on the cover.

[larethian]

Originally Posted by icebreaker

I don't see how this wasn't planned from the start. People seem to think that Ayase's confession isn't justified when actually she had more build up than Kuroneko before Volume 5. So compared to Kuroneko, who had one solid Volume dedicated to her build up, Ayase's build up is more spread out but is definitely not something the author pulled out to make this into a harem joke. I agree that Kanako's build up is a joke though, but it seems like there is space to re-interpret her actions. She could have been trying to mess with the other girls all along without actually having feelings for Kyousuke, ie. she won't do anything at all in Volume 12.

And I disagree on the core of this series being a love-triangle. I see the core of this series being "how everything that has happened in these 2 years affect the relationship between Kyousuke and Kirino." Explains why the novels always have Kyousuke and Kirino only on the cover.

Are you replying to me, icebreaker? Just in case you are, I never said Ayase's confession was unacceptable or unjustifiable

[Micromancer]

Originally Posted by icebreaker

And I disagree on the core of this series being a love-triangle. I see the core of this series being "how everything that has happened in these 2 years affect the relationship between Kyousuke and Kirino." Explains why the novels always have Kyousuke and Kirino only on the cover.

Quite agree with you, since an art's title, often describes the core of the story (Idk if this is true or not, but i [as a newb LN reader] usually interpret the core of the story based on this)

After all, I'm still rooting for the (romantic) sibling relationship to develop and sometimes think to myself "how the heck will it happen, it requires the power of Holy Grail !!! "

But, I have a feeling that the story would turn out to be a normal love story, ignoring the 'romantic' sibling relationship *sigh* . . .

[relentlessflame]

Originally Posted by larethian

First of all, no offense, but your opinion, as well as those who are of the same view as you, is as good as mine (and those who are of the same view as me). Or should I say it the other way round, that, mine is as good as yours?

Well, you know, this is a bit of an un-winnable argument because the terms are a bit unfair.

If I say "I always felt that things were heading this way" (which I did at the time, ref. my posts from back then), and they do head that way, then I suppose I could argue that my interpretation ended up being not invalid, since the subsequent events support it.

But if you say "I never thought it was heading this way, but the author could easily have changed his plan, so my interpretation earlier was equally right"... then on what basis are we supposed to interpret the story's meaning and the significance of earlier events? If you have to do an ever-increasing amount of downplaying and dismissing, doesn't it make the argument more difficult?

If there's an interpretation of the story that connects from start to end and ties everything together on a clear path/direction (granted, we don't know the ending yet, so we can only speculate at this point based on where we're at so far), then don't we have to assume this is the most logical interpretation of the author's underlying intent? If the alternative is "the intent was one thing at first, but it changed", isn't the burden of proof that much higher? (Unless you take the view that "we can never know the intent" (unless the author tells us specifically), and then a lot of analysis potential is closed off.)

Of course opinions are opinions and everyone is entitled to their own. But when it comes to interpreting a work's essential themes and central elements, I think we can't just rely on personal opinion. The evidence is in the work itself; you have to prove it in the text. But obviously, such proofs will ultimately have to wait until the final volume is released (although even then, I strongly suspect a lot will be left open to interpretation, so this is an argument that may never be won).

I didn't mean my comment as a sort of personal attack against you or anyone else, and I wasn't trying to imply that the way you interpreted the story at first was invalid, even though my gut/instinct/guess was different at the time. But I do think that, looking back now, it seems to me that a picture is forming that connects everything together. But we'll just have to wait to see how things end.

[GVN.Chaos]

Originally Posted by relentlessflame

I've said this before (back when the first anime season aired in particular), but I personally basically saw this as a "harem" premise (with Kirino as a central member) from early-on, even though the actual "candidates" started adding up in a serious way as it went on. I've always felt that the view that the whole story was just about "sibling relationship dynamics" with no romantic implications was, at best, an incomplete interpretation of what was really being shown. To me, it's sort of like "where there's smoke, there's fire"; people kept trying to view the story as one thing, but the evidence kept adding up the other way as it went along. So I have a little bit of a hard time buying the "the premise changed" or "it wasn't planned" argument. Of course, no LN author necessarily knows how many volumes their story will last, but I do think there's a pretty linear progression between where things started and where things ended up.

You got an interesting opinion here. As far as I knew, there is almost no hint of romance between Kyou and anyone from volume 1 to volume 4 (aside from the time he bought a present for Kirino). So how did you come to that conclusion that far ahead?

[relentlessflame]

Originally Posted by GVN.Chaos

You got an interesting opinion here. As far as I knew, there is almost no hint of romance between Kyou and anyone from volume 1 to volume 4 (aside from the time he bought a present for Kirino). So how did you come to that conclusion that far ahead?

Well, I guess to put it simply, it has all the trappings of a romantic comedy: the quasi-unpopular/"normal" protagonist with a childhood friend he's close to, a sudden "encounter" with the main heroine, beginning to be surrounded by more and more female heroines... Even someone like Ayase was pretty-clearly presented as an object of desire for Kyousuke right from the get-go, and Manami was presented as his sort of defacto "wife". His horizons opened as he started spending time with more different female characters. Obviously the story was focused on breaking the ice with Kirino at first, but I guess it didn't surprise me as that slowly shifted to romance; it's the clearest way to illustrate a teenager hesitating over the course of their life's direction, and that was really a major theme from the start. Plus there was also the whole theme of eroge that was there from the get-go, and in a lot of ways the scenario was just setting up a situation that mirrored your standard eroge setup (so a bit of a "meta" thing going on).

Of course, to go back to the point mentioned earlier, who knew that they'd try to pass all the heroines including Kanako as a "serious candidate", but I feel like that's a bit of comedy of excess as they get towards the end. It just puts that much more impetus on Kyousuke finally making a decision, and muddies the waters a bit more for "shippers".

So maybe it is just my bias that read something more into the story than was clear/intended at first, but I just always felt like it was that sort of story. *shrug*

[Shinji103]

Yeah, this title had the love comedy flags waving from Day 1.

[Mystic_Vegetto]

Anyone else amazed that we're now 1 month away from the final volume? Kinda excited and kinda sad that it's finally coming to an end.

[Shinji103]

Originally Posted by Mystic_Vegetto

Anyone else amazed that we're now 1 month away from the final volume? Kinda excited and kinda sad that it's finally coming to an end.

Only one month? I thought the novels were supposed to end with the TV series.

Not that I'm complaining. I'd definitely love to wait less time rather than more for this ending. I'm still rooting for KyousukexAyase, but it's hard to tell which way it's going to go.

[GVN.Chaos]

Anyone felt this episode rushed ? I mean, 12 minutes for chapter 1, but only 4 for chapter 2 ?
And good thing that Mikagami wasn't out. I always felt that his character is hard to understand.

[relentlessflame]

Originally Posted by GVN.Chaos

Anyone felt this episode rushed ? I mean, 12 minutes for chapter 1, but only 4 for chapter 2 ?
And good thing that Mikagami wasn't out. I always felt that his character is hard to understand.

This maybe should go to the spoiler & speculation thread, but I think the way they organized the episode made a lot of sense. You only have 24 minutes, and it's a lot better to use them to set-up the parallel between the A part and the B part, ending with that cliffhanger. I think they provided enough info in the B part that you can infer what happened in the interim, and they can throw the actual content onto a Drama CD bundled with this volume to fill in the rest.

In terms of cutting decisions, I'd say this was a good one. The episode has a very nice flow (the date, the inference of the boyfriend, and the discovery of the boyfriend). It's hard to think of a better way to end the episode, IMO.

[jasonhan416]

They skipped volume 7 chapter 2!!!
My ayase. My angel wtf man?

[Mystic_Vegetto]

Originally Posted by Shinji103

Only one month? I thought the novels were supposed to end with the TV series.

Not that I'm complaining. I'd definitely love to wait less time rather than more for this ending. I'm still rooting for KyousukexAyase, but it's hard to tell which way it's going to go.

The last volume comes out June 7th. The last episode of the TV Anime should be at the end of June I believe. I'm not sure when the last 3 episodes of the OVA will air/be released, but supposedly it should be some time soon after the TV Broadcast finishes.