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Old 2010-04-19, 22:09   Link #8461
chronotrig
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Originally Posted by Shiro Kaisen View Post
Yeah, I know how counters work. 人 always refers to human beings though. I've never seen an instance of it not being literal human beings.

And whether or not the seven stakes "exist" or not, they are still never referred to as "humans." Ange doesn't say that the Seven Stakes "might be human." None of the magical beings are referred to as "human." That's the distinction--Gaap, Virgilia, the Stakes, Piece-Beato in 5, they're all pieces on the board but they don't count towards the human total because they're magical beings. That point about the stakes doesn't really imply anything.
Again, 人 can be used to refer to many human-like fictional creatures, and moreover, it can be used to refer to characters in a play. It's only used to count the number, not to specify exactly what the thing being counted is.

Also, EP6 makes an point of saying "what is it that defines a person", so I don't think you can throw this out so lightly.
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Old 2010-04-19, 22:13   Link #8462
Renall
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Originally Posted by chronotrig View Post
Then you aren't seeing much. I suggest you go back and read the whole thing again. It's long, and too much of it doesn't make sense for just character development. After all, grown up Ange isn't actually a character that affects the game. Unless you can think up some way that the character development is significant, then there must be another reason.
The game affects her. There's also something clearly important about what she was going to see and didn't. The effect of the board on Ange reflects on what the board itself was.

Plus there's always the prospect that there's only one 1998, in which case Ange becomes very important to the overall story.
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Old 2010-04-19, 22:14   Link #8463
Judoh
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Originally Posted by chronotrig View Post
Then you aren't seeing much. I suggest you go back and read the whole thing again. It's long, and too much of it doesn't make sense for just character development. After all, grown up Ange isn't actually a character that affects the game. Unless you can think up some way that the character development is significant, then there must be another reason.
Maybe your seeing "too much"? Why doesn't it make sense with just character development? The character development gives us an emotional connection to the character before she gets grinded up and turned into hamburger meat. She's also investigating the murders in 1998 after the murders happen, and gives us some decent hints about the epitaph and insight into Eva's character.

So it doesn't just have to be a point about the stakes. It can be about giving us insight into Ange, Eva, and Maria.
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Old 2010-04-19, 22:15   Link #8464
chronotrig
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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
The game affects her. There's also something clearly important about what she was going to see and didn't. The effect of the board on Ange reflects on what the board itself was.

Plus there's always the prospect that there's only one 1998, in which case Ange becomes very important to the overall story.
But half of an entire game on her? Yes, we get the fact that Ange has a horrible life, and that Battler needs to save her, and the clues Ange looks up are important, but why spend so much on the school scenes? Moreover, why does Maria's grimoire contain the meditation techniques that Ange uses? And why does she even know about the stakes?
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Old 2010-04-19, 22:26   Link #8465
Renall
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Originally Posted by chronotrig View Post
But half of an entire game on her? Yes, we get the fact that Ange has a horrible life, and that Battler needs to save her, and the clues Ange looks up are important, but why spend so much on the school scenes? Moreover, why does Maria's grimoire contain the meditation techniques that Ange uses? And why does she even know about the stakes?
There seem to be other parts that are being overlooked here, like the revelation of Bern's trolling and the like. You can read her character arc as much about moving on (or self-destructing from the realization, Ange's not exactly stable) as about being some grand metaphor that it simply isn't really supportable to say it is.
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Old 2010-04-19, 22:35   Link #8466
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Originally Posted by chronotrig View Post
why does Maria's grimoire contain the meditation techniques that Ange uses? And why does she even know about the stakes?
I hate how you use those words... it makes me cringe. I've tried meditation myself. It's not like "chanting" or "imagining things". In meditation the most basic thing you do is clear all thoughts from your mind and just focus. That's right meditation is when you stop thinking and just focus. Your basically half asleep. It's not something that causes delusions. Maybe you could call that channeling or chanting, but not meditation.

As for Maria's Grimoire she has a lot of things in there magic circles and other stuff.

The bigger question is why does she have the grimoire? And why is it Maria's? Couldn't it be something from Kinzo's collection?
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Old 2010-04-19, 22:37   Link #8467
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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
There seem to be other parts that are being overlooked here, like the revelation of Bern's trolling and the like. You can read her character arc as much about moving on (or self-destructing from the realization, Ange's not exactly stable) as about being some grand metaphor that it simply isn't really supportable to say it is.
And what about "you need to understand magic and witches to defeat Beatrice"?

Look, I'm not trying to prove that my interpretation is right. All I'm saying at this point is that it offers a completely legitimate explanation for those scenes. Therefore, it can be used as a hint to satisfy Knox.

Quote:
That's right meditation is when you stop thinking and just focus. Your basically half asleep. It's not something that causes delusions. Maybe you could call that channeling or chanting, but not meditation.
Visualizing something in your mind is a form of meditation.
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Old 2010-04-19, 22:44   Link #8468
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Visualizing something in your mind is a form of meditation.
I'll give you that. There are meditation exercises where imagine things like maybe environments or energy or something.

But I've never come across a meditation exercise where you create a fictional world in your head where imaginary persons exist. No such thing would help you "find yourself". Which is generally the purpose of such things.
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Old 2010-04-19, 22:52   Link #8469
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I'll give you that. There are meditation exercises where imagine things like maybe environments or something.

But I've never come across a meditation exercise where you create a fictional world in your head where imaginary persons exist. No such thing would help you "find yourself". Which is generally the purpose of such things.
Well, the game tells us what the purpose is. By "using magic", you can create friends if you have none and are all alone. By "using magic", you can rewrite the past and turn a very sad night into a happy one (see Ange's reaction to Maria's party). You can think of it as a very sad and lonely person's attempt to find inner peace, and it does seem to work, at least for a short term basis.
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Old 2010-04-19, 23:50   Link #8470
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Originally Posted by chronotrig View Post
And what about "you need to understand magic and witches to defeat Beatrice"?
What precisely is the relationship between Ange's understanding in ep4 and Battler's understanding in ep5? Their objectives with respect to Beatrice are quite different, and Battler has access to information Ange doesn't. That suggests some differences in narrative interpretation, and trying to fit them together isn't necessarily as pat as all that.
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Old 2010-04-20, 00:01   Link #8471
Tyabann
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Why does Ryukishi spend half an episode on Ange and Maria? Because he isn't that great a writer, it's that simple.
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Old 2010-04-20, 00:25   Link #8472
Shiro Kaisen
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I'd like to raise an alternate possibility. Just go with it.

Shannon and Kanon are separate people! However, Furudo Erika does not exist! What washed up on the island was nothing more than her corpse! Furudo Erika's corpse is carried into the closed room by Kanon for Reason X! Kanon leaves the closed room in the interval immediately between Meta-Erika's demand to move the game forward and Dlanor's appearance! If that doesn't work, then Kanon came into possession of Kinzo's ring following his death! As a result, Kanon possesses the title of Kinzo! Therefore, Kanon is excluded from "Everyone else!"

Last edited by Shiro Kaisen; 2010-04-20 at 00:36.
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Old 2010-04-20, 00:28   Link #8473
chronotrig
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Originally Posted by Renall View Post
What precisely is the relationship between Ange's understanding in ep4 and Battler's understanding in ep5? Their objectives with respect to Beatrice are quite different, and Battler has access to information Ange doesn't. That suggests some differences in narrative interpretation, and trying to fit them together isn't necessarily as pat as all that.
I'd argue that reading over the second to last chapter makes it clear that they are both trying to "destroy Beatrice's illusion" and "kill her heart", despite being very reluctant to do so, but even besides that.

Ange understanding magic takes place at a key point in EP4, just before the final chapter. It is the culmination of the final Ange scenes and the story thread that took up a third of the entire game. There has to be some purpose for it, don't you think?

Quote:
Why does Ryukishi spend half an episode on Ange and Maria? Because he isn't that great a writer, it's that simple.
If you don't see the irony in this statement, I'm not going to comment on it
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Old 2010-04-20, 00:38   Link #8474
Judoh
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Why does Ryukishi spend half an episode on Ange and Maria? Because he isn't that great a writer, it's that simple.
No that's not the point. People who have lots of character development to the point where you know everything about them can't possibly be masterminds. This is considering Ryuskishi's style of writing. The point of that was to make it so you couldn't suspect Maria and Ange. If he didn't do that people would begin thinking Ange was an off island mastermind or that She was really Battler in disguise or something. There probably were people who suspected Ange too and he had to make that impossible.
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Old 2010-04-20, 01:20   Link #8475
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There is no chessboard in a formal statement system, please don't throw catchphrases around for no good reason. Chessboard is something between the users of a formal statement system, but it does not, as such, influence the basic laws of logic.

Let me explain that a bit more formally. You are, apparently, stating the following things, please correct me if I'm misunderstanding you:
  • The use of exotic or foreign sounding names is FORBIDDEN.
  • Battler is both an exotic and a foreign sounding name.
  • Therefore the use of the name "Battler" is forbidden.
  • Therefore the statement "It was from Ushiromiya Asumu that Ushiromiya Battler was born." cannot be said in red.
  • Therefore, it is possible that the statement "It was from Ushiromiya Asumu that Ushiromiya Sento was born." can be said in red because it is not forbidden by that rule.

With possible implications that either the person we know as Battler is actually born from Asumu anyway or that the person who was born from Asumu is someone else named 'Sento'.

While this reasoning itself is formally correct if the initial premise in blue, that is, your interpretation of Knox 5th as it might apply to Umineko, is correct, it also inevitably produces other consequences like this:
  • Krauss, Eva, Rudolf, Rosa, Jessica, George, are foreign sounding names written in an exotic manner just like "Battler". Kanon and Shanon even more so -- because they aren't proper western names either, but are exotic in Japanese in the same way as "Battler".
  • Therefore their use is forbidden.
  • Therefore the statements using those names cannot be said in red!
  • Therefore all the statements that actually are said in red regarding those names are impossible or in some other manner invalid and cannot be believed.

You can put the chessboard into a centrifuge and spin it to your heart's content, but unless you also state that the rules of speaking in red are different for Battler and any other users of red, there's nothing you can do about the names of all his relatives.

But if the rules of speaking in red are different for different speakers, red is essentially useless, end of the game, stalemate.
Okay, how about I say this. Don't turn over the chessboard, next try thinking outside the box.
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Old 2010-04-20, 01:23   Link #8476
Tyabann
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Originally Posted by chronotrig View Post
If you don't see the irony in this statement, I'm not going to comment on it
Ah, well, you're perfectly right to disagree with me, but I don't see what's so ironic. I'm a little dense, so...

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Originally Posted by Judoh View Post
No that's not the point. People who have lots of character development to the point where you know everything about them can't possibly be masterminds. This is considering Ryuskishi's style of writing. The point of that was to make it so you couldn't suspect Maria and Ange. If he didn't do that people would begin thinking Ange was an off island mastermind or that She was really Battler in disguise or something. There probably were people who suspected Ange too and he had to make that impossible.
Ryukishi is a very good storyteller and very good at constructing a sense of mystery. He is NOT very good a creating a balance between character development and actual plot, and he is sometimes entirely too heavy-handed with his overarching themes. He also relies entirely too much on metaphor. Like way, way too much.

Furthermore, the mysteries in Higurashi kind of sucked in retrospect, and if, against all common sense, Shkanon turns out to be true, it'll be confirming my opinion of him.

Sorry I insulted your favorite author.

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Okay, how about I say this. Don't turn over the chessboard, next try thinking outside the box.
You know, some people here don't take very kindly to people just dangling "I HAVE A THEORY LOL" in front of their noses. I don't mean to be rude, but please either tell us your theory or go away.
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Old 2010-04-20, 01:23   Link #8477
Uberzaki
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I think I've figured this out, this isn't about who Beatrice is. It's about who Ryukishi07 is.
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Old 2010-04-20, 01:31   Link #8478
chronotrig
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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
Furthermore, the mysteries in Higurashi kind of sucked in retrospect, and if, against all common sense, Shkanon turns out to be true, it'll be confirming my opinion of him.

Sorry I insulted your favorite author.
Not offended, but curious about why you think Shhanon is so bad. If it just doesn't match your tastes, that's no reason to go bashing the author who wrote it. If Umineko isn't part of a genre you like, it's probably better to move on instead of complaining.

Most of the reasons that people say Shkanon is bad don't apply to all Shkanon versions. It's not Shkanon they dislike, but a particular type of Shkanon.
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Old 2010-04-20, 01:32   Link #8479
Judoh
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Originally Posted by Kaisos Erranon View Post
Ryukishi is a very good storyteller and very good at constructing a sense of mystery. He is NOT very good a creating a balance between character development and actual plot, and he is sometimes entirely too heavy-handed with his overarching themes. He also relies entirely too much on metaphor. Like way, way too much.
Hmm? Takano had absolutely no character development other than being an occultist who writes scrapbooks until the last episode. On the other hand Rena gets the whole thing about her parents. Keiichi gets a bit of character development about his school life and about the whole Bee bee gun thing. Rika (although she has the syringe) gets tons of character development and even some backstory on who Bernkastel is. Shion and Mion were switched during a sushi dinner and Shion (who is actually named Mion) was narrating the entire story in Kai.

Point is in Ryukishi's stories lack of character development = suspicious. Getting loads of character development means you are not suspicious. That's all I'm saying.
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Old 2010-04-20, 01:38   Link #8480
chronotrig
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Hmm? Takano had absolutely no character development other than being an occultist who writes scrapbooks until the last episode. On the other hand Rena gets the whole thing about her parents. Keiichi gets a bit of character development about his school life and about the whole Bee bee gun thing. Rika (although she has the syringe) gets tons of character development and even some backstory on who Bernkastel is. Shion and Mion were switched during a sushi dinner and Shion (who is actually named Mion) was narrating the entire story in Kai.

Point is in Ryukishi's stories lack of character development = suspicious. Getting loads of character development means you are not suspicious.
Well, keep in mind that Umineko was a planned out in advance in a lot more detail. Ryuukishi wrote most of all 4 Higurashi question arcs before selling even 1000 copies of any game, and I think he had another full-time job at the time. Originally, there was only going to be 3 question arcs, and many other changes seemed to have happened during the process.

Umineko, on the other hand, seems to have been scheduled in great detail from the outset. He's been talking about moving stuff from EP5 and 6 all the way back during the release of EP3. Also, he's taken great care to learn from his mistakes and things he was criticized for in Higurashi. You can see the difference if you go back and look at the Higurashi question arcs in almost every aspect of the games.
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