[Manga] Chapter 414 Discussion

[Tsuyoshi]

Originally Posted by Luce

I have a thought on what that "tsukiyomi" might be, it might be wrong, but still just a thought. I'm thinking that it could be the paralyzing genjutsu that Itachi used on Orochimaru back in the day and cut his hand off. If you remember it kinda looked like tsukiyomi but Orochimaru clearly stated, "I can't believe you caught me in a paralyzing genjutsu", or something along those lines. This seems to be exactly what happened to Killerbee. It started out looking like tsukiyomi, but then it shows him landing and saying that he couldn't move. Well, this was my thought, your thoughts on my thought

First off, Itachi wasn't even using the MS against Oro to make that paralyzing Genjutsu. We already knew Itachi's Genjutsu wasn't limited to eye jutsu. Not to mention Sasuke used the same jutsu, and that was long before he had the MS. The Tsukuyomi's on a whole different level, but so is Killer Bee's 8 tails chakra after all.

[Luce]

Yeah...nevermind about what I said, I did some searching and found the chapter (ch.345 pg 8), and it's just a normal (sharingan) genjutsu that Itachi used, there is nothing that resembles tsukuyomi. I think I just got confused with when Sasuke did it to Orochimaru, with the black background there. Well, my idea just got crushed

[astayanax]

As far as killerbee breaking out of tsukiyomi is concerned, imo it's rubbish. Tsukiyomi is instant, you can't break out of it. It's like saying you blocked a punch after taking the punch in the face.

If kishimoto made killerbee receive the full effects of tsukiyomi but had him fully recovered in a few seconds because of his bijuu chakra, that would be somewhat plausible. But to say he broke out of tsukiyomi is a serious error on Kishimoto's behalf that has caused confusion amongst the readers.

The hachibi didn't break out of Tsukiyomo. Sasuke stopped this jutsu himself as he was in pain. The hachibi demon broke the paralysis effect itself on hachibi.

[X_Danny_X]

Originally Posted by Freedan

Giant slugs iyho? Don't forget she's supposedly uber strong in Genjutsu.

eh? uber strong? there were just hints given that she would be better than Tsunade because she knew a little bit of Genjutsu.

there were hints about a couple of other stuff in this manga but nothing much was build upon them since this manga took a turn about Sasuke in Shippuden and the majority of the cast just went missing.

[holypanl]

Originally Posted by elusive

you guys forget that sasuke was GONE from the manga for a long time. he's disappeared multiple times for large chunks of chapters. we went about 60 straight chapters/over a year without seeing him. he probably hasn't even made an appearance in at least 100 chapters out of 414. how is that too much screen time?

the naruto/sasuke battle has been built up from day one. naruto surpassed sasuke, sasuke passed naruto, and now naruto is gonna get his power up to pass or equal him. sasuke will probably vanish after this fight and the pein/konoha fight begins.

now...hawk getting captured would be weird. kisame or zetsu might step in. w/pein going for naruto, they want the last 2 biju now w/no delays.

Sigh...the blindness...

Sasuke was hidden from our view for a while in order to build up suspense. We were all excited before Shippuden came out, and even after, up until he killed Orochimaru, because we all wanted to see "OMG...it's Sasuke, the so-called genius...he must totally cool now...!!!"

But now that he's out, and everything, his first few fights up to Itachi Vs Sasuke were cool, and yea, they've pretty much shown us everything he has to ofer. (And don't tell me any BS about "Now he has the Mangekyou!!" I've seen enough of these "My eyes own you, your wife, kids, sister, parents, house, lands, business and your dog all in 1 second flat" eyes.) Sasuke is just old news now.

To much screen time is defined as literally taking over the damn focus for about 20 chapter straight or more. I'm effing fed up with Sasuke. The show need to move on...

And the saddest part is that the series Naruto was going SOOO well before. That's practically the only reason I'm still reading it. I'm waiting for Sasuke to go away. Or die. Whichever comes first.

Originally Posted by james0246

Sasuke 'got' his MS because he felt a deep emotion . Okay, that is putting it a little too simplistically. Sasuke gained the MS by being sad over Itachi's death (symbolically Itachi was the "sacrifice" needed to activate Sasuke's MS, so Itachi's statement of sacrificing your best friend still holds true), so through the death of the person closest to him Sasuke gains the Mangekyo Sharingan.

This is also probably how Kakashi gained the MS.

Wow...Something tells me that NAruto is getting more illogical every chapter...

Think about it...

At first when I read this post, I didn't see anything unusual about it. Makes sense, right?

But actualy THINK...read that over. NAruto has become such utter nonsense now that this kind of statement is the logic behind it.

Reall now: Does that make any sense?

Originally Posted by Freya

If Amaterasu is able to kill the 8 tails that easily then the whole fight was pointless.

True...

[Master Mold]

Originally Posted by neuromancer

As far as killerbee breaking out of tsukiyomi is concerned, imo it's rubbish. Tsukiyomi is instant, you can't break out of it. It's like saying you blocked a punch after taking the punch in the face.

If kishimoto made killerbee receive the full effects of tsukiyomi but had him fully recovered in a few seconds because of his bijuu chakra, that would be somewhat plausible. But to say he broke out of tsukiyomi is a serious error on Kishimoto's behalf that has caused confusion amongst the readers.

In the fight between Team 7 + Chiyo vs Itachi's 30% clone, Chiyo describes the way to fight doujutsu. She says the best way is to have a companion strike either you or the opponent, in order to release you from it. Killerbee claims that the hachibi disturbed his chakra and thus dispelled the genjutsu. It's essentially the same concept as what Chiyo described. However, Kakashi explained to Chiyo that the MS's tsukiyomi can't be dispelled that way because it is instant.

Also, to say Sasuke's tsukiyomi isn't as powerfull as Itachi's is irrelevant. The main characteristic of tsukiyomii is that it's instant. If it's not instant, it's not tsukiyomi.

So in the end, either the jutsu was tsukiyomi and Kishimoto downplayed it too much, or the jutsu wasn't tsukiyomi and Kishi mistakenly made it look like it was.

At this point, the only plausible explanation would be for Kishimoto to have Sasuke say that it was a failed tsukiyomi, that he tried to use that jutsu and it was unsuccesfull. And let killerbee think that he broke out of it...

That's just imo.

Did you forget that The God of the Moon is not over with in an instant to the person traped in the Gen? Sure its like a few seconds in reality, but its 72 hours of Mind rape for the victim traped in the Gen, that enough time for the Killer bee to break out.IMO

[Ero-Senn1n]

Originally Posted by james0246

That is not quite true. Sasuke's arrogance over his "rampage" was already thoroughly crushed by Itachi and Madara. In Sasuke's fight with Itachi, Sasuke learned that he did not defeat Orochimaru, but rather the snake was waiting to ambush Sasuke from behind, and if it was not for Itachi, Sasuke would be gone. Then, Madara burst Sasuke's bubble completely by more or less telling him that Itachi threw the match and pulled almost every one of his punches. So, Sasuke walking into a match with HJ feeling any amount of arrogance concerning his fights in the past makes little sense, considering the fact that Sasuke only really won one of his three major fights.

No, I expect that Sasuke just had regular old Sharingan-arrogance (his "I'm more special" arrogance), and this fight might have finally beat out that arrogance (which Lee beat out of him in Part I, but had a resurgence by the end of Part I and has existed throughout Part II).

It's difficult to not take for "arrogance" and "excessive self confidence" when Sasuke charges against the 8-tails guy in an unknown place without his sharingan, without a plan and without counting on his teammates. I wouldn't call that simply "sharingan-arrogance", since we don't even know if there was such a thing among the members of the Uchiha clan. In the flashbacks the Uchiha were not arrogant in general, also Itachi never had such an arrogant behaviour.

As for the basis of his arrogance, well it's not clear what he has comprehended from his past fights, in the end he was the one to survive so they surely based his arrogant approach. Against Orochimaru he said that Orochi is nothing compared to the sharingan, against Deidara it was similar. After Itachi's death he turned against Konoha, he had not understood Itachi's wish to protect Konoha, so why would he understand how inferior he was to Itachi?

Originally Posted by OtseisRagnarok

Also, was anyone else happy to see them mention the Raikage? The only villages that really get any kind of mention are Leaf and Sand. It was nice to see a mention of another governing faction.

It was time for this, since Madara&Pain's big plan is about the whole ninja world, so the big players should be introduced. Madara is the kage of the mist village, so he will probably use the village for his own sake when needed. But the story of the manga is often quite simple, so it may be that the other big villages will not have any major role in the story, apart from being randomly selected for destruction and bloodshed, so that Naruto and co. can save everybody in the end.

[Master Mold]

Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n

It was time for this, since Madara&Pain's big plan is about the whole ninja world, so the big players should be introduced. Madara is the kage of the mist village, so he will probably use the village for his own sake when needed. But the story of the manga is often quite simple, so it may be that the other big villages will not have any major role in the story, apart from being randomly selected for destruction and bloodshed, so that Naruto and co. can save everybody in the end.

isni't Pein also a Lage of the Rain village?

[Sabaku Kyu]

Originally Posted by holypanl

Wow...Something tells me that NAruto is getting more illogical every chapter...

Think about it...

At first when I read this post, I didn't see anything unusual about it. Makes sense, right?

But actualy THINK...read that over. NAruto has become such utter nonsense now that this kind of statement is the logic behind it.

Reall now: Does that make any sense?

Yeah, actually it does. Every MS we've heard of in the story (with the possible exception of Kakashi's MS) was stated to be directly tied to the death of a close friend or relative. Sasuke's MS was the result of Itachi's death. What about that doesn't make sense?

[james0246]

Originally Posted by JINBEI

isni't Pein also a Lage of the Rain village?

Only the five main villages (Sand, Leaf, Cloud, Rock, and Mist) have a Kage, the other smaller villages seem to just have a leader (unless you wish to count the Hoshikage from the Land of Bears as a real Kage and not just a filler anime character ). It seems you have to be recognized as a Kage from all 5 other villages before you can assume the title of Kage.

[Master Mold]

Originally Posted by james0246

Only the five main villages (Sand, Leaf, Cloud, Rock, and Mist) have a Kage, the other smaller villages seem to just have a leader (unless you wish to count the Hoshikage from the Land of Bears as a real Kage and not just a filler anime character ). It seems you have to be recognized as a Kage from all 5 other villages before you can assume the title of Kage.

Then what was that Hanzou guys rank? and didn't it say his name was known anywhere.IIRC

[james0246]

Originally Posted by JINBEI

The what was that Hanzou guys rank? and didn't it say his name was know anywhere.IIRC

The Land of Rain (Ame) is a small country situated between three big countries. So, it is a field that many battles have been fought on and fought for. Hanzou was one of the great shinobi of his day, and he helped to fight for the protection of his country, and while he was definetly Kage level, for some reason he was never given the title of Kage. Probably the three larger countries that surrounding Ame did not wish for Hanzou or his country to be officially recognized as a Kage for a variety of reasons.

[Ero-Senn1n]

Originally Posted by james0246

Only the five main villages (Sand, Leaf, Cloud, Rock, and Mist) have a Kage, the other smaller villages seem to just have a leader (unless you wish to count the Hoshikage from the Land of Bears as a real Kage and not just a filler anime character ). It seems you have to be recognized as a Kage from all 5 other villages before you can assume the title of Kage.

I would say it's more like the Security Council: 5 strongest countries are members, and their leaders are the kage. So they can choose a kage in whatever way they want (just as the members of the Security Council, one was democratic while the other communist). Obviously Konoha is the USA: they had the 4 kage head monuments (mount rushmore), they were the youngest country, they had the will of fire (=american dream, democracy, etc.) and they became the strongest country of all. I think the smaller countries can have the same naming too, kage, jounin, chuunin, genin. I don't think the word "kage" was trademarked by the big five

[Master Mold]

Originally Posted by james0246

The Land of Rain (Ame) is a small country situated between three big countries. So, it is a field that many battles have been fought on and fought for. Hanzou was one of the great shinobi of his day, and he helped to fight for the protection of his country, and while he was definetly Kage level, for some reason he was never given the title of Kage. Probably the three larger countries that surrounding Ame did not wish for Hanzou or his country to be officially recognized as a Kage for a variety of reasons.

Makes me wonder just how is Madara recognize as a Kage, with out the other country finding out who he is?

[SajberToent]

Originally Posted by james0246

In the entire continuity of the story, Lee has only won one fight (if you can call it a fight), and that was against Sasuke pre-Chuunin exam. Lee has never once won another fight in the manga.

Well since the story isn't titled LEE but NARUTO that's probably why we haven't seen Lee fight that much. Have you forgot how a nearly hospitalized Lee saved Naruto (to be saved by Gaara in return)?

Naruto was good pre-shippuuden, one of the top genins for sure. He was cunning, had some really powerful jutsus along with his kyuubi powers. Now he's just mediocre at best but with a tactical nuke that he can't afford to use for obvious reasons.

[Sabaku Kyu]

Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n

I would say it's more like the Security Council: 5 strongest countries are members, and their leaders are the kage. So they can choose a kage in whatever way they want (just as the members of the Security Council, one was democratic while the other communist). Obviously Konoha is the USA: they had the 4 kage head monuments (mount rushmore), they were the youngest country, they had the will of fire (=american dream, democracy, etc.) and they became the strongest country of all. I think the smaller countries can have the same naming too, kage, jounin, chuunin, genin. I don't think the word "kage" was trademarked by the big five

It's simpler than that. Kages are the leaders of ninja villages that have the backing of a country's daimyo (i.e. feudal lord). Other villages such as the Sound and the Rain aren't the service of any daimyo so their leaders don't have the kage name.

[Phenomenal]

Emotional Eye Blast!!!!

[james0246]

Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n

I would say it's more like the Security Council: 5 strongest countries are members, and their leaders are the kage. So they can choose a kage in whatever way they want (just as the members of the Security Council, one was democratic while the other communist). Obviously Konoha is the USA: they had the 4 kage head monuments (mount rushmore), they were the youngest country, they had the will of fire (=american dream, democracy, etc.) and they became the strongest country of all. I think the smaller countries can have the same naming too, kage, jounin, chuunin, genin. I don't think the word "kage" was trademarked by the big five

Well, I wouldn't quite say that. the way Madara spoke of Hashirama and the foundation of Konoha leads me to believe that Konoha was the first Hidden Village and Hashirama the first Kage (judging by the fact that Madara said that the other villages copied Konoha's design, it is very likely that Konoha was first at everything). That being said, I believe that the fact that Ame is surrounded by three of the five great villages, those villages would go out of their way to not let anyone from Ame become Kage (you can't very well fight in a country that has a leader that you acknowledge as being your equal).

As to whether or not Hanzou was Kage of Ame, well we need only look at Orochimaru and his village Sound. Orochimaru has never been called the Kage of Sound, even though he should be able to claim the title quite easily if the title has no real importance outside of listing the leader of a village. Added to that, the title could stem from the fact that the Hidden Village is sponsered by a Daimyo, and Rain (or Sound) never had a Daimyo or at least did not have their support.

It also seems more likely that the position of Kage was established when Hashirama distributed the 9 (or 8 if Konoha kept Kyuubi) Bijuu (in fact I would almost say that each village besides Konoha received two Bijuu but either misplaced the tailed beasts over the years, or they escaped).

Originally Posted by JINBEI

Makes me wonder just how is Madara recognize as a Kage, with out the other country finding out who he is?

Since the five viallges more or less came about at the same time, it is possible that Madara has always been Mizukage (he could have even founded the village). But, that is juat a possibility. Right now it is unknown how Madara hid his Uchiha-ness and became Mizukage.

[Master Mold]

Originally Posted by SajberToent

Naruto was good pre-shippuuden, one of the top genins for sure. He was cunning, had some really powerful jutsus along with his kyuubi powers. Now he's just mediocre at best but with a tactical nuke that he can't afford to use for obvious reasons.

How can you judge Naruto when he has not fought anyone to show off what he can do?

[Tsuyoshi]

Well, it's already been said that for a ninja leader to be ranked as Kage, that ninja would need the approval of the other four. I think who gets the title of Kage is actually quite simple. This scan says that it's the villages with the greatest power among every single one in the continent that have the five Kages.

The reasons why they're the most powerful may vary. Either they have their land's lord backing them, which adds to their influence, or perhaps the nation is just naturally large, which leads to larger forces for that ninja village. Notice how the five Kages all belong to the biggest nations. The Fire, Wind and Cloud countries, for example, are the biggest ones around.

Ame was not very big, nor was it very powerful either. It was mentioned offhand during the Chuunin exam arc I think. Possibly because the country they were in was small to begin with. Thus, their overall military strength could not compare to its counterparts in the Fire and Cloud countries for example. That would explain why Hanzou didn't have the title of Kage. Either that or his ways of running his business in his village were not approved. The other four Kages likely frowned upon his extremely paranoic methods of conduct.

As far as Madara's concerned, I agree with james. Madara left Konoha shortly after its foundation. It wouldn't surprise me that he was the one who created the Mist in the first place.