[Manga] Chapter 415 Discussion

[james0246]

Originally Posted by Hunter

Honestly james your "among other thing" doesn't change the main body of your post -in fact it doesn't really adress the point I am making- and I think you know it

Not quite (I guess I haven't made myself clear enough on this issue). I fully admit that I could have been more clear in my original (on this topic) post, but, as I said I do not view two of your three examples you gave as being true evidence of "emotions", but I fully acknowledged that I forgot to include the Sasuke v Itachi fight. As is, I feel you are downplaying my initial statement. Sasuke focused entirely on revenge so that he need not feel his emotions (the mask (which he does wear, I am not disagreeing with that), is the symptom, not the problem; rather Sasuke's quest is (one of) the problem(s) that created the mask).

Much the same as a person that focuses too much on work (or fantasy) as a means of escaping life, Sasuke escaped his emotions by focusing entirely on his quest for revenge (at least this is how I read his "mask"). It is only now that the original focus has passed, that his emotionless facade is crumbling, and true full emotions (like grief and compassion) are being shown (rage is definitely an emotion, and Sasuke definitely expressed it during the Itachi fight, but, I admit, I was focusing on more personable emotions that the audience can relate to rather than the darker emotions that Sasuke was focusing on).

Originally Posted by Hunter

Until? Super powerful chakra from a virtually infinite source that actually make you recover when you use it instead of tiring you?
Sound pretty overpowered to me and amusingly enough this one really does not have any drawback whatsoever when you have learned to use it.
Jiraiya's fight must have faded out from your memory, Senjutsu is as overpowered as it gets. Ultimately it means super speed, super strength, super powered jutsu and super recovery all in one package.

I did not really see Senjutsu as being too overpowered in Jiraiya's fight (maybe that was due to how easily, at times, Pain took on Jiraiya.) But, I fully admit that I will probably complain a little the first time I see Naruto use the ability in battle. Again, I fully acknowledge that Senjutsu will undoubtedly be extremely overpowered (I gave a scenario earlier in this thread detailing the complete domination that a Senjutsu wielding Naruto with just Hiraishin would do to anyone and everyone in the manga), but for now, I like the basic training.

[Phenomenal]

Originally Posted by ShadowAssasin

You left something out…. By looking at him and directing black inextinguishable flames that rival the sun’s temperature at its body; searing its flesh…

And? That's still terrible writing.

You don’t have to; it will still be one of the strongest attacks in naruto; and will still have the potential to kill powerful characters.

THIS AIN'T JUST ANY POWERFUL CHARACTER..THIS IS DA 8-TAILS! BAD WRITING.

…And what does the “ultimate” rasengan have to do with the amaterasu? Pein is not the 8-tailed jinchuriki, and the Amaterasu is not the “ultimate” rasengan; those were two totally different situations.

THE FACT THAT A CLONE CAN SHRUGG OFF ONE OF THE MOST POWERFUL ATTACKS IN NARUTO BUT THE 8-TAILS [SECOND BEHIND THE NINE-TAILS] COULDN'T? WEAK THAT'S WEAK.

Wait, do the tailed beasts not have the ability to feel pain?

NO.

I’m sure that is quite an insult considering the vast amount of literature and work you must have read. Is it safe to assume you’ll no longer be reading this terribly written manga? I guess we won’t be seeing you next week?

THE FIGHT WAS WRITTEN TERRIBLY. I'LL BE BACK.

[Shiryuu]

It'd be awesome if Raikage shows up and takes back Killer Bee.

[SajberToent]

Originally Posted by The Phenomenol

THIS AIN'T JUST ANY POWERFUL CHARACTER..THIS IS DA 8-TAILS! BAD WRITING

I don't see what the problem is, Akatsuki has been killing Jinchuurikis and Bijus left and right for well over a hundred chapters now. Sasuke is one of the most powerful Nins in Naruto now, he killed Deidara and this time versus Killerbee he had help. If it weren't for the other Hawk members then Sasuke would likely have been dead.

Lastly there can be a big difference between a jinchuuriki and a biju in terms of power, would Sasuke kill kyuubi? No, probably not (amaterasu or no amaterasu).

[Keroko]

I'm still not convinced that its logical for Amaterasu to one-shot Hachibi. Sure, it may have been named after a sun goddess, but that doesn't make it a 'flame of the gods' (because lets face it, that would mean Madara and Sasuke wield god-like powers, which I'm pretty sure is a no-no) it's a powerfull eye technique, sure, and as a finishing move it would have been very fitting.

But to one-shot an enemy who was, untill that point, completely dominating the fight?

I fear for Kyuubi. The nerf-bat shall probably smash out his teeth too. Heck, Naruto is already gaining access to a Chakra source with all the advantages of Kyuubi but without its disadvantages.

Allas, my dear Bijuu, some of you I knew well, some of you I never knew at all, but it seems your tale has ended before its time had come.

[HiroInazuma]

Originally Posted by The Phenomenol

And? That's still terrible writing.

THE FACT THAT A CLONE CAN SHRUGG OFF ONE OF THE MOST POWERFUL ATTACKS IN NARUTO BUT THE 8-TAILS [SECOND BEHIND THE NINE-TAILS] COULDN'T? WEAK THAT'S WEAK.

1) How is it terrible writing? I would be p*ssed off if the Amaterasu didn't kill the Hachibi cos then by extension it would be down playing the Itachi's jutsu cos they said that Sasuke's eyes have more potential that Itachi's

2) Itachi stopped the jutsu to save Sasuke but Sasuke had used Orochimaru's body shedding technique, so it isn't a clone shrugging it off, cos the clone was almost burnt to a crisp I mean the black flames almost destroyed the forest

@Keroko The Hachibi would have no way of stopping the flames anyway so how would it not beat him? Also the Kyuubi is probably on a whole other level than the others, he might just eat the amaterasu for break fast...then he would fall into submission of the MS

[Keroko]

Originally Posted by HiroInazuma

@Keroko The Hachibi would have no way of stopping the flames anyway so how would it not beat him?

The demon cloack sound like an ideal shield, remember, four-tailed Naruto could stop Kusanagi, a sword which according to Enma is able to cut even diamond. It might not have stopped the attack completely, but I expected him to at least be able to stand after the blow, and keep fighting (you know, breathing heavilly, charred in several places, but not instant-KO). This is why I said it would have been better of as a finisher, after Hachibi had already recieved several blows and was slightly battered.

Right now its as if Amaterasu is an instant Bijuu smasher, which either makes the move ridiculously strong, or the Bijuu ridiculously weak. Since Naruto most likely will defeat Sasuke somewhere along the story, I fear it is the later.

Originally Posted by HiroInazuma

Also the Kyuubi is probably on a whole other level than the others, he might just eat the amaterasu for break fast...

*clucks tongue* I hope so, though it wouldn't change the nerfing of the other beasts, it would at least give us a good Bijuu fight.

Originally Posted by HiroInazuma

then he would fall into submission of the MS

Don't remind me. I'm still disapointed they completely downplayed Yondaime's sacrifice like that. I still can't understand how a kitsune, a master of illusions, can be controled by a pair of fancy eyes and some bloke who can control wood. The whole 'Shodaime could control Bijuu and MS can control Kyuubi' gig was perhaps the most disapointing part in Naruto. To me at least.

[Endrance]

Originally Posted by Keroko

The demon cloack sound like an ideal shield, remember, four-tailed Naruto could stop Kusanagi, a sword which according to Enma is able to cut even diamond. It might not have stopped the attack completely, but I expected him to at least be able to stand after the blow, and keep fighting (you know, breathing heavilly, charred in several places, but not instant-KO). This is why I said it would have been better of as a finisher, after Hachibi had already recieved several blows and was slightly battered.

Not even a demon cloak could stop a fire that is inextinguishable because shay the cloak did somehow hold it off how long would it be before theses flames that are hotter than the sun burn up the little cloak

[Keroko]

Several ways, since the cloack would keep the flames from reching his body, he could expell the chakra, blasting the flames outwards. As it stands now, by taking down a Bijuu in top shape in one shot the Amaterasu has stepped up from being a powerfull technique to a technique that even surpasses a Bijuu in power. The Bijuu were supposed to be demons who's strength far surpassed what humans could ever achieve, hence why they were sealed and wars were fought over their possesion. And yet, here is a technique that can overpower one, basically making its owner, be they Sasuke, Madara, Itachi or even Kakashi if he could, stronger then a Bijuu.

This does several things:

1: It completely obliterates Yondaime's sacrifice. He died trying to seal one, while Sasuke has the abillity to take one down and come out battered, but alive.

2: It furthers the nerfing the Bijuu have been recieving since Shippuuden. They went from 'indestructible beasts of terrible might' to 'overpowered by a handfull and a few scars' (even during the Naruto/Gaara fight it was 'exploiting a weakness' not overpowering them)

3: It further raises the question "Why on earth is Akatsuki gathering Bijuu?" if they have the power to defeat them, why gather them? Why not just destroy them?

4: It makes one wonder just what relevancy Bijuu have to the plot from now on. In the first half, they were the apex of power in Naruto. Now they are captured left and right, some we only get to see a face, some we don't get to see at all. Jinchuuriki power is being replaced by Mangekyou/Sage Arts as the apex in power.

[Rawrz]

Im sorry but this fight was one of the worst battles Ive ever seen in a manga yet...Whats with that useless emotional stuff anyway? Did the write expected us to cry or something by burning karin accidently? Another sharingan gimmick and another demon in our picnic basket.Someone should tell the guy that this tricks getting old...

Well at least its still better than Bleach weekly wrestling show...

[SajberToent]

1: It completely obliterates Yondaime's sacrifice. He died trying to seal one, while Sasuke has the abillity to take one down and come out battered, but alive.

For starters, Jinchuuriki's are usually not as powerful as their Biju's. One exception was the two tails since it lacked a mind to control it's immense power.

Secondly Kyuubi is stronger, much stronger. We don't know how powerful a free Eight Tails would have been but we do know that the entire might of Konoha was only able to stop Kyuubi by sealing him away, at a terrible price.

Kyuubi is composed of a raw force of concentrated demon chakra, I doubt that Amaterasu would have any impact on him and even if it did then Kyuubi would probably have some means of countering it. Pherhaps by shedding the burning bodyparts or deflecting it with a wave of chakra.

2: It furthers the nerfing the Bijuu have been recieving since Shippuuden. They went from 'indestructible beasts of terrible might' to 'overpowered by a handfull and a few scars' (even during the Naruto/Gaara fight it was 'exploiting a weakness' not overpowering them)

I agree, but then again the powerlevel has gone up considerably since Akatsuki were introduced. Many of the fights we see now are Hokage level or above.

3: It further raises the question "Why on earth is Akatsuki gathering Bijuu?" if they have the power to defeat them, why gather them? Why not just destroy them?

They have been able to defeat them one at a time, yes. Usually it's also been Jinchuuriki's (who despite their powers are still very much still mere humans). The power of all the Bijus should be considerable and unlike anything we've seen so far.

4: It makes one wonder just what relevancy Bijuu have to the plot from now on. In the first half, they were the apex of power in Naruto. Now they are captured left and right, some we only get to see a face, some we don't get to see at all. Jinchuuriki power is being replaced by Mangekyou/Sage Arts as the apex in power.

Biju's are probably dead and done with. However Jinchuurikis still very much have a part to play. Expect to see Naruto to learn more about Junchuuriki-hood sometime soon. The key and killerbee are good indications of this.

I'm however curious if Gaara still has his powers or not.

[Endrance]

Originally Posted by SajberToent

I'm however curious if Gaara still has his powers or not.

He still has his powers but to a weaker extent

[LUVBOOTIESONCUTIES]

Originally Posted by jinbei

i agree, heck if you look back at the itachi vs sasuke fight, the 1st time itachi used god of the sun on sasuke's fire ball he stop it from eating sasuke two, and when he stop it from eating away at sasuke when it caught his wing.

And after looking at the data book 3, i think it pretty much confirmed that all the ms have the same technique's.

As for kakashi weird ms's

Spoiler:

it will be explain some time in the manga.

all ms do not have the same technique's 'cause itachi never had tobi's ability to use space time jutsu and i dont think tobi can use the black flames or susano

[LUVBOOTIESONCUTIES]

Originally Posted by spydersidiouss

People are still saying this garbage? Even after the fight he just had?? Lol whats wrong with you man, how can you say he's a "god"? There goes your imagination again; try sticking to the facts hm?

sasuke inheriting one ability after the next --he needs to gain power by working for it

[SajberToent]

Originally Posted by Endrance

He still has his powers but to a weaker extent

Do you have any source on that? Assuming the new databook?

[Endrance]

Its shown after he has shukaku removed that he can still manipulate sand like before but not to the extent he did before

[Keroko]

Originally Posted by SajberToent

For starters, Jinchuuriki's are usually not as powerful as their Biju's. One exception was the two tails since it lacked a mind to control it's immense power.

I certainly hope you're right, but so far Shippuuden has shown nothing but the oposite.

Originally Posted by SajberToent

Secondly Kyuubi is stronger, much stronger. We don't know how powerful a free Eight Tails would have been but we do know that the entire might of Konoha was only able to stop Kyuubi by sealing him away, at a terrible price.

Yes, and then came shippuuden with 'lolz my eyes can control Kyuubi' Madara and even worse: 'lolz I can control all Bijuu' Shodaime.

Originally Posted by SajberToent

Kyuubi is composed of a raw force of concentrated demon chakra, I doubt that Amaterasu would have any impact on him and even if it did then Kyuubi would probably have some means of countering it. Pherhaps by shedding the burning bodyparts or deflecting it with a wave of chakra.

All Bijuu are concentrated demon chakra, so these counters were available for Hachibi as well. Perhaps its Killerbee's stupidity for not using them. I hope so.

Originally Posted by SajberToent

Biju's are probably dead and done with. However Jinchuurikis still very much have a part to play. Expect to see Naruto to learn more about Junchuuriki-hood sometime soon. The key and killerbee are good indications of this.

What I hope is that Naruto uses the Nature chakra to equally mix his chakra with Kyuubi's to avoid being overpowered. As the frog holding the key said, 'just opening the seal a little caused Kyuubi's chakra to overwhelm Naruto's chakra' maybe he can use Nature chakra to avoid being overwhelmed.

Originally Posted by SajberToent

I'm however curious if Gaara still has his powers or not.

The data book said he still has his control over sand, but there's no mention of the shield of sand. I personally think he has lost the shield, as it was being controlled by Shukaku.

[LUVBOOTIESONCUTIES]

Originally Posted by james0246

this new ms ability is not orihime's time-reversal ability . Rather, it appears to be a more profound control over amaterasu (and by extension, possibly, tsukuyomi as well). Specifically, sasuke's ms was not shown to heal karin or hj from their amaterasu induced wounds (which a time-reversal ability would do). Rather, he simply made the amaterasu recede and then disappear (he extinguished the flame).

I must say that i do not agree with hunter or the others that have mentioned that itachi made his own amaterasu recede, rather i see this ability as being unique to sasuke.

why would he need a more profound control over tsukuyomi and even amteratsu(remember when itachi was in a frogs gut his use of the black flames was "profound " enough) they are many ms abilities and some people have these others have different ones /// all the ms eyes shown look different // the common theme seems to be ms gives you a variation of space time jutsu (tsukuyomi was said to control space and time by itachi remember) genjutsu and whatever else

[felix]

Originally Posted by HiroInazuma

@Keroko The Hachibi would have no way of
stopping the flames anyway so how would it not beat him? Also the Kyuubi is probably on a whole other level than the others, he might just eat the amaterasu for break fast...then he would fall into submission of the MS

• this thing is so damn big even if amaterasu can burn all that the user sees, Sasuke can't exactly see it all and for what's worth the human vision space of concentration is roughtly the size of a penny which makes the hole attack on this scale even more prepostarous. And NO, normal sharingan properties don't apply, since otherwise Itachi and others could use amaterasu against oponents behind them or behind objects, which would be even more ridiculous.
  
  
• up until now we've seen it applied in accordance to it's name, but nothing of this magnitude. It's all very reasonable for it to be unstopable and all consuming but the way Sasuke used it you have to wonder why Tobi doesn't just go and look at Konoha to see it go boom. Hell he might just as well glimpse at any mountain before him -that he doesn't like- and it will go boom.
  
  
• if Naruto's 9-tail is anything to go by the monster's chakra burns as well, as far as I'm concern this should have been something like a case of burning lava with fire. (honestly I don't see the sun evaporating, lol) Sure it might hurt but it's not going to be anything instant. I sure hope something wasn't showned or there is some huge timeskip there.

I'm not going to say Sasuke is overpowered since I can see using a ton of clones somewhow preventing the sharingan user from freely casting amaterasu at leasure, but the story writing (if this is really all there is to it) was very poor and forced.

[LUVBOOTIESONCUTIES]

Originally Posted by ero-senn1n

you're right, just reread the chapter and the flames are really gone. Well then it seems that sasuke mastered amaterasu so he can extinguish flames. Meanwhile someone translated the 3rd data book's part which says that if both tsukiyomi and amaterasu are mastered then the 3rd ms jutsu which itachi did use is unlocked to him as a reward. I guess sasuke didn't master tsukiyomi yet, since the 8-tails guy easily broke out of his jutsu. Now, that gives sasuke even more room for becoming even stronger. Supposing that madara mastered the ms, even has the ems, he must have all 3 ms jutsu. And yet the 1st hokage defeated him, he had all 3 ms jutsu, which makes someone almost a god, and he even had full control of kyuubi, but he was still beaten. That cannot be demon control (all 8 demons under 1st's control) and wood jutsu only, the 1st had to have even more than all that to beat madara. I guess the times of dbz where planets are blown to oblivion are coming :d

u get a reward for perfecting 2 ms abilities wtf - who gives you this reward // and madara so called ems came from stealing his brother eyes-itachi said but not in these exact words -he gained all three techniques that day (not he was rewarded) sasuke itachi and kakashi all got their ms differently so why people think sasuke have all of itachi abilities and not new stuff like kakashi and even madara (i will never know this ans...)

Originally Posted by suna no tate

what do you mean? There is no reason why amaterasu has to be a guaranteed win.

If anything, kishi has been hyping it for a really long time that its not, since it's an ill gotten attack (that whole theme about those who cheat to get power, have to pay a price and that power often turns out to be useful but not an end all- think curse seal for starters).

1) itachi chose to run away from jiraiya instead of using amaterasu as an instant win. Also consider that itachi's amaterasu didn't burn down the whole house despite the residual flamers. Its similar to the paradox of how you contain a substance that can dissolve everything.

2) itachi uses it vs sasuke and it's easily dodged. Itachi doesn't even consider it his real trump card to boot! Susanoo is his instant win, not amaterasu

3) sasuke uses it on madara and he somehow escapes. Madara didn't seem too impressed either

i'm actually really really suprised because i figured what'd happen is amaterasu would connect but the bijuu would form a massive chakra cloak that would swallow it up. Remember, naruto's 4 tail chakra cloak withstood the kusanagi sword which supposedly could cut through anything much like amaterasu could burn through anything. I'm really surprised the hachibi had no counter, even in the form of simply jumping in the water (a natural reaction to being set aflame).

Sucks kishi.. Sucks...

your correcto -- everything that comes from one person has to travel before it gets to another person regardless of speed or medium including genjutsu--the black flames can burn anything yet it can be sealed in fucking paper AND I ALSO THOUGHT THE CLOAKED THING MIGHT HAVE COME INTO IT SINCE HE DOES SO MANY THING LIKE DEMON NARUTO --i tell you this anything can be sealed in my toilet paper

Sasuke wants to distroy konoha help the akatsuki create a atomic type weapon(jutsu) by getting the 8 tails(who will loose his life now and has never done anything to saSuke or his clan unlike madara)would like to kill naruto and people are still BUTT riding him -even itachi gave naruto an ability he hoped could stop sasuke if he went down this same path// sorry folks sasuke crossed the line when he was going to kill naruto and sakura now doing this to the 8 tails to gain power sasuke is a sicko like orochi