[Manga] Chapter 423 Discussion

[Fran~]

Hunter you touched some point there... "strength"...

In Naruto, you can see how strength is always the opposite to another factor, in naruto's case is guts, in Shikamaru's case is intelligence...

And... that is one of the plot's key points, the eternal argument between Jiraiya and Orochimaru about what defines a Ninja, to Oro is the number of Ninjutsu that the Ninja uses... to Jiraiya was all about guts. Pain is on Oro's side, now Kakashi is on Jiraiya's side, tomorrow will be Naruto.

Remember Hidan against Shikamaru. Hidan is a immortal being, but still a lazy -but genius- ninja could defeated him completely. How that could be possible?, Shikamaru find out the secret behind Hidan's ritual and Hidan was history. Futhermore, when Asuma fought with Hidan, Shikamaru already could figure it out how the ritual worked.

Pain is the same. It doesnt matters how much strenght he has o how invencible he is... he already said it... "If we hadn't keep our secret, we would never have won"... once the secret is revealed, pain's defeat is close.

[Satsuki Yuuhi Ramius]

Im just read this chapter.The Last page is painful for me ><

[Kishimyu]

I was guessing that if another person was gonna die it would be Tsunade or Kakashi
....hopeful im wrong, cause then Tsunade cannot die
If Kakashi and Tsunade both die though they havent mentioned anyone capable of stepping up to become Hokage; as for Naruto, he isnt strong enough yet

[Nintendo]

Originally Posted by The Small One

I don't think Madara is the final boss. Pain is still standing higher than him with all this "destined child" prophecy.
Though I think it's kind of obvious, that the final villain is going to be Sasuke.

i always thought it was...Madara is sasukes main boss and pain is narutos main boss.

[TwilightHack]

Ouch, we didn't even see the Mangeyoku.

Which leads me to speculate he didn't bite it yet. Unless of course Kishi wanted him to go down in a less than flattering way.

[MidnightViper88]

Ace in the hole; Kakashi uses up the rest of his chakra in a last resort effort to bust out the MG and avoid certain death...

My bet

[wtfftw]

This fight sucked balls for me was so corny and stuff. I thought pain would be doing some more crazy stuf yet he is fairly easy i might say. If kakashi doenst die ill be very disappointed being able to draw people and push them away and not killing them means you fail imo, I would have wanted pein to push someone in a freaking steel pipe.

[Ero-Senn1n]

Originally Posted by The Small One

With all the people guessing where, if and how bad Kakashi was hit, I think it would be the most amusing outcome, if the last picture didn't even show Kakashi's sihouette, but Pain's.

The hair is definietely Kakashi's.

I'm quite sure that Kakashi won't die, not only because of plot shield and popularity shield (Gai and Tsunade do not have that popularity shield) but also because there was no flashback for Kakashi. Kakashi is one of the main characters, he is more important in the manga than any of the sannins or any of the akatsuki so if he goes down that will be a big event, definitely not being hit by some shitty nail. So even if he dies in this fight (which i think will not happen) it must be after he used his MS and had the upper hand over Pain for a moment and in the end even forces Pain to escape and thus saves Konoha.

Originally Posted by james0246

... Kishimoto would have each body fight one of the known Teams (Team 8 and 9, Team Gai, Kakashi, etc - the Aces/main tertiary characters) ...

Since Kishimoto didn't let any of those teams fight one Pain body we can assume that none of the teams is strong enough to even survive such an encounter, and that can be taken as a sign of how strong Pain is. Chouji and his father who are taijutsu monsters were knocked out of fight like they were some weak genins. The only reason why Chouji is still alive is that Kakashi is there to face Pain. My idea was that Pain will fight the teams after he killed a lot of ninja and he is already on low chakra, so that the teams can show their ability (i want to see a Neji fight!) but if Kakashi performs too good in the next chapter then maybe Pain will escape the village before further fighting. Seeing Neji kill one of the Pains after it killed Hinata's father in an epic fight would be a nice show

[wtfftw]

Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n

The hair is definietely Kakashi's.

I'm quite sure that Kakashi won't die, not only because of plot shield and popularity shield (Gai and Tsunade do not have that popularity shield) but also because there was no flashback for Kakashi. Kakashi is one of the main characters, he is more important in the manga than any of the sannins or any of the akatsuki so if he goes down that will be a big event, definitely not being hit by some shitty nail. So even if he dies in this fight (which i think will not happen) it must be after he used his MS and had the upper hand over Pain for a moment and in the end even forces Pain to escape and thus saves Konoha.

He needs to die

[Gamma_Sennin]

I disagree on pain becoming disappointing if he doesnt kill kakashi... kakashi has information on pain... (from what both jiraiya/pa toad have told him).. giving him the upper hand from the very beginning... not to mention he is only fighting one pain... and hes also figured out what god pains power is... and how it works... kakashi dieing would only reinforce pains strength... but its already been made very clear by his defeat of a ninja arguably a lot stronger than kakashi... the fact that kakashi will be defeated by one pain, even if he lives... will still be something impressive... one and a half bodies defeated one of the most well rounded shinobies in the narutoverse...

thats like itachi defeating him without sharingan...:S

[Cub-Sama]

Is it possible for Kakashi to use Kamui on himself to transport himself somewhere else?

[Fran~]

Itachi fought with Sasuke, Sasuke was done for... but plot no jutsu saved his big emo ass...

Kishi sacrificed Jiriaya for the plot, from the farewell talk with Tsunade, remembering Naruto's parents, he told us things that we always wanted to know, who was naruto's parents, why he travelled and wrote books... when he was fighting he told us about Yahiko, Nagato and Konan, he told us his most deeper thoughts...

If in this fight, Kakashi would remember what happen to Rin or how was the fight between Yondaime and Kyuubi, i would say that Kakashi is done for... but i still think that Kakashi has an important part in the plot... he is one of the ninja who could guide to the new generation to take the control of the world.

[Cub-Sama]

Originally Posted by Fran~

If in this fight, Kakashi would remember what happen to Rin or how was the fight between Yondaime and Kyuubi, i would say that Kakashi is done for... but i still think that Kakashi has an important part in the plot... he is one of the ninja who could guide to the new generation to take the control of the world.

If Kakashi does die I can just see Kakashi having a flashback about Naruto with him dying with a smile saying 'How ironic that your child will end up in my team...goodbye Naruto' with Kakashi writing a note that reveals something about either Minato and Kushina or something about anything.

[AuroraFlash]

Originally Posted by elusive

I FIGURED IT OUT.

kinda...

the key is pein saying he'll keep his distance. kakashi knew pein would stay back after the bunshin trick. plus his power isn't suited for close range combat hence the other pein joining the fight. pein has a lag in his power and kakashi's trap was to lull pein to sleep thinking he has an easy kill. he shot the nail and someone or something is gonna hit pein before he can recover.

the other attacks allowed kakashi to test the speed of pein's recovery and the correct range to counter it.

i think kakashi wins but we see how pein can revive himself. deva pein then finishes him off.

At leat the next chapter isn't called "Kakashi's death". I could imagine Kakashi to think that far ahead, because he's really a clever guy. I also think that Kakashi's much more clever than Jiraiya. Jiraiya was hell of a powerful guy with loads of chakra and he fought Pain with his power - that's insane. Ninja's can't fight Pain that way. That's the matter. You can't struggle with Pain, you have to defeat him by cleverness. That actually makes someone like Kakashi or Shikamaru a better enemy for Pain than someone like Jiraiya. That's also the reason why I think it's somehow too hard for Naruto to beat Pain. If he uses plenty of his surprises and stays clever, he can do it, but even a 600-tails exponentially whatever Kyuubi demon release might do nothing effective.

Originally Posted by Hunter

Well I think Kakashi is a better measuring stick than most of those kids put together and we aren't going to see all of Pain's powers so soon against low-key characters like them anyway.
What we are seeing now is 1~2 bodies (mostly one though) taking care of Kakashi (along reinforcement fodders) who is what Konoha has best to offer beside Naruto and Tsunade... While the rest of the bodies keep laying waste in the village. I find this rather impressive.

Now I never thought Pain was final villain material myself so I probably don't have the same exigence than you have but while I think Pain will fall prey to Naruto's wrath soon enough the fact remain that he is displaying more than enough strength to be at the very top of the ninja world right now.

Yes and no. At first yes. He's shown unique skills and he's shown strength and it's actually easy for him to fight lots of people. On the other hand, that's been told about other Akatsuki before. If you think about it, Shikamaru had a lot of time to think about how to defeat Hidan and Kakuzu and that was and is the only way to defeat them. In the end, it took a lot of cleverness to defeat those two and they were defeated separately. Pain fights with two bodies, so he's actually an Akatsuki team on his own... more than that... all in all, he's three Akatsuki teams plus Konan.
I think which makes him strong is that he has the strongest doujutsu and thus the strongest bloodline limit or at least one of the strongest because we don't know what Masa-kun comes up with.

What makes him weak is that we already know that he has a weakness and Kakashi even discovered something about his skills. On the other hand, it makes him strong that he doesn't give his enemies time to hesitate and reflect on their experiences with him. Kakashi can do that in battle, maybe even better than Shikamaru because he has experience with doing it in battle. Shikamaru always needs his pose and a calm moment.

I think it's just tricky what you have to do to kill Pain. Madara on the other hand might not have a secret like that, no Achilles heel, you know?
That's what makes Madara a better suited final villain, especially because Madara is from the ancient times. He is a founder of Konoha, like Yin and Yang, like white and black or bad and evil and so on. While Senjuu Harashima is the white, the good part and beloved founder of Konoha, Madara has existed at the same time and he's somehow like Nero... he wants to burn it to the ground. He's as old as Konoha and I think that he's a fitting counterweight.

[ragnos007]

Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n

The other 4 are on different places in the village, so they do not see what's happening to god-pein. Only the asura-pain did see it but it was hit by Kakashi's chidori just before that, so i assume it was killed (even if it will be resummoned or revived somehow).


I assume Kakashi didn't use genjutsu because the other pain was watching so he would notice the genjutsu immediately and notify god-pain of that, so Kakashi's genjutsu would have failed. I don't see a reason why Kakashi could not be able to make a successful genjutsu on god-pain, MS is very strong, and also we must remember that now Kakashi is fighting only 1 of the 6 pains.


I think that Pain has to beat MS first, and then Gai may enter to help him out, but that might cost Gai's life. Since Kakashi is very popular i assume he cannot be killed, but Gai is not so popular, also a nice thing would be to see Gai with 8 gates open forcing Pain to retreat from Konoha. With 8 gates open he must be a monster, and i think that at least one major character has to be sacrificed to rescuse the village from Pain.

I agree that Gai should come in and open the 8 gates With that speed he would definitely be able to make it a close range fight against god pain. I don't think that Gai should allow Pain to retreat either that would just be plain stupid... I wanna see Gais Turtle summon too. I wonder what it can do other than throw a pin wheel thingy.

Also.... I want to know how Pain can control rain across a great area when his power is controling gravity and repulsion forces from his centre. Remember when Jiraiya entered that hidden rain village and God Pain had his sensor rain going.... Anyone have any theories?

[DeDe]

Originally Posted by Hunter

Well I think Kakashi is a better measuring stick than most of those kids put together and we aren't going to see all of Pain's powers so soon against low-key characters like them anyway.
What we are seeing now is 1~2 bodies (mostly one though) taking care of Kakashi (along reinforcement fodders) who is what Konoha has best to offer beside Naruto and Tsunade... While the rest of the bodies keep laying waste in the village. I find this rather impressive.

But remember Tsunade's speech two chapters ago about entrusting Konoha to the kids? It's their time now. Kishi seems to be setting up for them to be in the spotlight.

The older generation is slowly stepping aside for the new one to take over.

[Darkkendo]

Spoiler for l:

OMG! Don't die Kakashi!

[tatami]

Originally Posted by DeDe

But remember Tsunade's speech two chapters ago about entrusting Konoha to the kids? It's their time now. Kishi seems to be setting up for them to be in the spotlight.

The older generation is slowly stepping aside for the new one to take over.

new generation is too yopung to take over , the generation to take over is kakashi's age of shinobi's...no one in narutos age could defend the village or make village duties properly...

can you imagine lee ten ten and neji deailng with god pein? I give it 10 minutes tops.

[SajberToent]

Originally Posted by tatami

can you imagine lee ten ten and neji deailng with god pein? I give it 10 minutes tops.

Well we don't know much about Neiji, as for 10 minutes I think that's far too generous.

[Fran~]

For that reason is why i think that Kakashi will be like a tutor for them... Kakashi is full of the will of fire, he already suffered a big shock in his life with the death of his father (with the same reasoning about duty versus moral), obito's death, etc...

But if Kakashi really dies... well... what the hell, but is up to the Fat Lady (or kishi... is it the same? )