Macross Delta the Movie 2: Absolute LIVE!!!!!! Discussion Thread

[Nachtwandler]

Originally Posted by HirouKeimou

To be fair, in order:

Spoiler for Frontier isn't the greatest writing in the world but it's not terrible...:

- Not an excuse for it but Michael's death served as a push for Alto because their slopping writing of Alto's character throughout the first half of the series left him as this completely indecisive character following wherever the wind blew. And this infuriated a lot of characters on the show, including Ozma, who in the movie got to freaking punch him. Talk about not critically thinking about things, Alto took Mishima's words about the Vajra at face value and failed to think for himself, which he later regretted but alas his character having flaws essentially meant other characters had to pay for it.

- Grace is an enigma. On one hand, it's foreshadowed a couple of times earlier in the story with her relationship with Mishima prior. However, her actions and complete disregard for Sheryl, at least, were confusing at first. Because it did sort of come out of left field in episode 15. And it's like they felt Mishima didn't work as enough of a villain so then they decided Grace was but then also Galaxy, except Galaxy isn't Grace herself, she's a part of Galaxy. The whole thing got super hive mined in the final episode, especially. So it's like, I look at Delta, and I get it considering Frontier's reveal in episode 24.

- This is valid. But I always took it as by the time Mishima had power to do so (death of Catherine's father), the situation was in such a dire strain and Sheryl was already compromised so he could blackmail her into doing his bidding. And once the show finished, they'd basically cleared Sheryl's name. Ranka, on the other hand, is one I'm kind of bitter about in the TV series because they basically glossed over how she temporarily (for good reasons, but I digress) swapped sides and if it would have any negative consequences for her as a person once the war had ended. They dropped this in the movies and thank goodness. Because the switch itself still baffles lots of people; her sudden choice to go with the Vajra in the context of the show and her character makes no sense at all; however, as an outsider looking in it could be perceived differently; so it's been a mixed bag and one of the most inconsistent writing in the show by far.

- Didn't really care about the triangular ending but not gonna lie, I look back at the ending and feel it really didn't deliver on where the consequences for the villains. And I've talked in prior forums on here about how Galaxy is still at large (the main ship) at the end of the TV series. And as far as I remember, the movies didn't resolve that either. So it's like, I could write that off as lazy writing, but the show is kind of about the people who live on Frontier, specifically. So it's no surprise if Galaxy one day shows up as an enemy in a new Macross. The most interesting aspect would be to see how Kawamori would keep their affiliation to the ship a secret.

On topic, at the end of the day, Delta is ironically better as a TV series because of how much it sadly wants to cover in one go. Whereas the movie can't focus on one plot or the other. So it's like eight stories all going on at once with very little resolution for each one. And I know I said it's a lot more compact back when the movie first hit Blu-ray, and it's true; but that can be a detriment. After all, as I said for Frontier, it's not simply a retelling of events because a lot of those events are mixed up so much that the original context of the TV series no longer works. Everything about the characters is changed or swapped around. I said ages ago how Sheryl got watered down in her movie appearance to a point where if you didn't watch the TV show you wouldn't know this girl suffered much outside of a passing mention in the movie. But it's a real plot point in the TV series that's supposed to help you sympathize with her. And it's sort of why I wish they would stop doing a retelling of an established series and make a sequel movie for an existing plot. They did this with 7, what's so hard about other Macross'? (And no, I'm not counting Frontier's second movie being a completely different beast from the original series or Delta's new movie because it's still in the movie verse; I mean something following the TV adaption.)

Spoiler for Spoilers:

- It may be a matter of interpretation. Ipersonally saw no reason for this. In general that the character you like is being killed without much purpose it is annoying. The movies avoided it just fine.
- My main concern here ios not from the plot point perspective (they needed a 'final bboss fight' and some drama involving Ranka and sHeril after all). My main issue is character-related. Most of the time they were ambigous characters, who, while not on the 'good' side, still largherly were the victims of the goverment pressure anddidf what they did because they had no better choice. In the last part of the series they just started to behave like outright anatagonists obn their own free will. Especially Grace and it was areal case of bad writing. Most probably a last-minute script rewrite.
- This one is not a big deal, but still was handled way better in the movies and resulted in some cool scenes.
- Here it is a clear case of scriptwrighters not knowing how to resolve the riomantic plot. The rumors about Kawamori being in 'team Ranka' and other key staff members
in 'team Sheril' is just a rumors made by annoyed fans (which was alreadfy discussed). But it is still another case of hast rewriting itr seems. In the movies Alto at least confessed to Sheril resolving the romantic plot. And the endding was bittersweet but with potential happy-end (Alto being teleported with Varjra 'mothership' and Sheril in coma, but, according to Kawamori, they will be fine a cople of years later).

So, while I understand siome people liking the series more than the movies, it is a clear case for me that during the series production scriptwriters were notr sure what to do with some plotlines and have to redo them with limited time on their hand, while during the movies production there was no such issue. Though, as it were movies, of course the generasl time for the plot developments were more limited.

[HirouKeimou]

@Nachtwandler: This is the wrong thread for discussing Frontier so I'm gonna end here by saying this: I think you misunderstood my initial response.

You initially (and still kind of are) arguing an unresolved love triangle is a reason for a TV series feeling anti-climatic in its conclusion; it's not a valid reason. In fact, a lot of people on here could surely argue the lack of a definitive conclusion for the love triangle in 7 (or even how absurdly obvious it was) did not ruin the ending's climatic feel for anyone. The difference is, in 7, a lot of the plot related stuff regarding the villains and consequences of the characters choices were resolved, if not in the TV series then in the OVA which followed closely after. Meanwhile, Frontier had a TV series and a set of movies retelling the TV series story in a completely different context. So all of the stuff like what happened to the villains and if any of the characters choices throughout the show affected their ability to even live on Frontier was left for a sequel it would never receive. This is sometimes lazy writing if you're never planning on adding anything to a preexisting universe. For instance, we'll never hear from SDF-1 again; they're likely dead by now but at some point people used to wonder.

For the love triangle though, it was likely either a conscious decision to not stir up discourse or a marketing decision to promote the movies which were literally announced after the TV series concluded (or extremely close). Long before the TV series concluded, they knew they were doing a movie for it (unlike Delta where they initially hoped for a movie). So they likely left it open-ended because it could sell the movies for people really wanting to find out which girl won. And it worked for a lot of people. And sadly, it also resulted in extreme discourse amongst fandom because obviously both sides had been heated from like the beginning of the TV series.

And I think that's why Delta didn't really hide the love triangle's conclusion from day one. Imagine trying to sell a new series based on old tropes people were obviously beginning to tire of (at the time). Clearly, Kawamori believed what he'd slapped together would sell; and if the series had been only those beginning thirteen episodes, it likely would've sold hotly. Sadly, when the "movie deal" he initially wanted for the final half of Delta fell through, he decided to add everything, basically everything, into the second half of Delta's TV series. And oh boy, I'm glad he did it there and not in the movies because could you imagine having no context for why anything on screen is happening? The only downside to this is unlike Frontier, he resolved the love triangle; so now he's gonna have to sell Delta's movies based on the plot and singing alone, and Delta is performing alright in Japan, but it's not near the levels of Frontier.

And sadly, all of this talking about the short-comings of his series has dug up my repressed memories of his older works. If you were to go back and watch the first Sousei no Aquarion, it's an utter mess of a show even for someone like me who watched it years ago. Trying to figure out what's going on based on the in-universe lore before you even account for how EVOL and Logos changed and added things (oh, and the movie and spin-off OVA, we can't forget), likelihood is you'll think the man is crazy. The fact he never planned for sequels back then is insane considering how much of that series is a freaking crash course in all the wrong writing choices. It's entertaining, yes; sort of like how Guilty Crown is pretty to look at till you watch it with a critical eye; but it's got a lot of camp, and a lot of characters make dumb or sometimes outright ridiculous decisions for the sake of advancing the plot and all of it feels very forced in areas. This is why I always felt EVOL was a bit of an improvement over Sousei no Aquarion, because at least the main leads had progression that felt fitting of their characters on average vs. forced development for plot progression. But it's always kind of been Kawamori's thing: To force characters into situations you naturally would think is against a character's personality simply so he can advance a plot. And Delta's no exception to this, in fact, it's like the best example in the form of Mikumo and Hayate at points. And it's freaking annoying, to be honest. But it's less intrusive overall because it never affects the outcome of the plot whereas it did in his older works.

[Nachtwandler]

I did not mean to go to offtopic. It is just that TV vs movies discussion about Macross in general started by itself.

On the other hand. They actually do hinted possible fate of SDF-1 in Delta, but abandoned that plotline again.

Still, for some reason I like watching Macrosses despite the fact that I still have a hard time watching Gundams (only was able to finish 8th Squad anbd started a bunch of other but lost interest). They have their charm.

[HirouKeimou]

Originally Posted by Nachtwandler

On the other hand. They actually do hinted possible fate of SDF-1 in Delta, but abandoned that plotline again.

If you mean all the mentions of Lady M, it's kind of misleading to assume it's designed as a "hint" for the fate of SDF-1. The Japanese language doesn't use the alphabet like English speakers do, so simply because a character's name starts with 'M' for us, it's not applicable in the Japanese alphabet. The reference could've been for either of the two prior main lead girl characters whose name started with 'M' or it could simply be an organization.

It's all speculation and not really something you could classify as a "hint." And even when it comes to actual hints in Delta, none of them give us any new information that prior series in the universe didn't. The references it received in episode 20 were basically the ones that had existed since the days of 7.

[Nachtwandler]

Not actully. At least in one ep. there was a talk between characters about the lost Macross apparently appering a few years ago and that it may have relations to lady M.

[magnuskn]

Originally Posted by Nachtwandler

I would argue with it.

- They killed Michael just because;
- They made Sherils manager and Rankas brother behave out of character as generic villians in final parts of the story just because, instead of exploiting the whole plot with crazy goverment of their homeplanet;
- The whole situation with Sherils potential imprisonment was abandonned;
- They ended the series with generic happy end that did not resolve romantic triangle any way.

And these are just from the top of my head. It is pretty clear that the script was rewritten during the process and scriptwriters just were not sure what to do with trhe plot.

Despite movies being much more condenced I like the general storyline and ending way more there.

Uh, wat?

Spoiler for Spoilers, just to be sure of the rules.:

- No, Michaels death had a big impact on Alto and Klan-Klan in their character development. I wish it hadn't happened, but saying it was "just because" really doesn't do it justice.
- Grace (and Banana as her henchman) were the main villains behind the entire story from the beginning. It's called a plot twist and it was set up properly throughout the series before the reveal in the middle.
- Sheryl was never really in danger of being imprisoned on Frontier. That wasn't her plot arc in the TV series, that only got introduced in the movies.
- Yeah, the ending was a cop-out, although it was pretty clear that Sheryl was the "Winner" in the romantic triangle.

[saya_leviathan]

YouTube

https://youtu.be/Tt4vjKw2KNk

Sorry; dynamic content not loaded. Reload?

New trailer. And a certain SDF Macross character (around 0:16) appears!

[Tak]

Good one Kawamori... good one...

Might just confirm who I think is Lady M.

- Tak

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by Tak

Might just confirm who I think is Lady M.

I wonder... do you think Lady M is Milia?

[Tak]

Originally Posted by Kazu-kun

I wonder... do you think Lady M is Milia?

Well, it's either that or Max knows something we don't...

Also, I would have LOVED for him to actually show up on screen in the 2nd Frontier movie, since he did participate in the last battle.

- Tak

[HirouKeimou]

Originally Posted by Tak

Also, I would have LOVED for him to actually show up on screen in the 2nd Frontier movie, since he did participate in the last battle.

- Tak

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I do believe you're thinking of Isamu.

It's more likely it'll be like with Frontier, Kawamori trolled in the trailer of Isamu showing up in the movie but he was only present in the final fight, and only his voice and Valkyrie. Otherwise, he was never on screen. Watch it be the case with Lady M too.

[Tak]

Isamu, as well as Max & Milia were in the final battle during the events of Frontier 2nd movie. Unfortunately, the latter only appeared in the novels, thus why the lack of screen time.

- Tak

[HirouKeimou]

Originally Posted by Tak

Isamu, as well as Max & Milia were in the final battle during the events of Frontier 2nd movie. Unfortunately, the latter only appeared in the novels, thus why the lack of screen time.

- Tak

That would explain why I only remember Isamu appearing in the movie...

Sadly, I'm not gonna fall for any trolls from Kawamori because if one of the characters from SDF-1 show up as a pilot in the movie, I will simply sign off for his sheer lack of understanding of how time works, specifically if it's a human character. Because chronologically speaking, Delta is in 2067, SDF-1 ended in 2012, Plus in 2040, and 7 ran from 2045 to 2047 (including sequels here), and Frontier was in 2059. Logically speaking, the vast majority of specifically older and human characters in general from prior shows in the franchise are likely either dead or retired from service by now or, as we witnessed with Max, in a higher position of power.

And remembering all their ages during those shows, it's understandable to show Isamu appearing in Frontier's second movie since he was in his early 20s during Plus. Meaning he was in his early 30s at best during Frontier. However, by Frontier, Max was likely pushing his mid-60s, because he was around his late teens in SDF-1 back in 2012. So it's not likely either of these characters or any other human characters from SDF-1, Plus, or 7 would show up as pilots unless it was one of the teenagers from 7 in particular. It's more likely to predict they'll be shown in flashbacks regarding something happening in the current timeline.

The only characters most likely to show up to help in this movie are likely going to be from Frontier, if any. Because it's the most recent timeline which logically a set of pilots could come in and help.

At this point, if Kawamori is gonna bring people from earlier in the franchise back for a cameo on the battlefield, he best stop placing these shows so far apart chronologically.

(And yes, I deep-dived into the timeline earlier because I was thinking to myself, "how in the world would Max even be capable of piloting a Valkyrie at this point?" And I discovered it'd be impossible unless humanity discovered de-aging solutions...)

[Tak]

Originally Posted by HirouKeimou

That would explain why I only remember Isamu appearing in the movie...

Logically speaking, the vast majority of specifically older and human characters in general from prior shows in the franchise are likely either dead or retired from service by now or, as we witnessed with Max, in a higher position of power.

The introduction of advanced alien technology also means that extending human lifespan (with the health to boot) is attainable, though unfortunately not a topic that has been discussed in depth.

On the other hand, age differs depending on specie. Those poor 'wind' passers have a relatively short life span of what? Fifty years? Whereas the Zentradi are essentially immortal (or at least ageless). For example, Gol Boddole Zer, Vrlitwhai and Exsedol were over 100,000 years old by the time of Space War I. Vrlitwhai was appointed command of the UN Spacy in 2016, and I do not remember this position ever being replaced by someone else.

Then there are people like Grace, cybernetically enhanced, genetically engineered and using Super-Dimension Space to hold their conscious. Under standard circumstances, they are as close to immortality as you can get.

- Tak

[HirouKeimou]

@Tak
In my earlier post, I pinpointed more than once how the timeline would affect "humans specifically" when considering cameos in the new movie. Hence why I pointed to the ages of Max and Isamu.

Also, extending the human lifespan is up for debate. Because for one, in Frontier, the Vajra blood is considered deadly for a human to even accidentally consume or be injected with. In Delta, the virus has shifted into a nerve-based issue no one seemingly can resolve. And continuous activation of it reduces the lifespan of the host (i.e. Messar). You could argue cross-species breeding could result in a longer lifespan but then the child would not be fully human so it hinders my initial point.

As for Grace... I believe it was established in the original TV series (and is true of the movie too), Grace is more or less an android version of her human self with all her prior knowledge copied over. The real Grace died years ago. This is also true of Brera. The problem is, if you're discussing side material for her, it undermines the on-screen situations from the TV series (and movies) of Frontier, as Grace is undeniably linked to Galaxy to the point where she loses sight of her original goal towards the end of both versions (and thankfully redeems herself in the movies).

My point originally was based on the human characters specifically. The likelihood of Alto showing up as a pilot cameo in Delta is higher than any of the prior human pilots, i.e. Max and Isamu. Now, Basara could show up, because logically he should still be of age in-universe to pilot a Valkyrie. However, if I recall correctly, in Frontier, Ozma mentions how he's "reaching the age of retirement," implying there is a cutoff age for when someone can operate heavy machinery or ballistic weapons in the military as there is in real-life. The problem is, those types of things are left to side material and never fully addressed in the shows (maybe it's a boring topic but it's world-building so it should be discussed more), and outside of fan translations, there's no official translation of those materials. Also, a lot of stuff mentioned in the side materials tends to contradict the timeline of the franchise itself... so I tend to consider Macross, as a franchise, to be Kawamori's Gundam series. Because you could bend yourself backwards trying to figure out which version of a Macross is "canon" whenever a new addition to the franchise drops. I know many on here initially believed Delta followed Frontier's movie-verse; however, as the series continued, it felt more like it followed the TV series ending. And neither is confirmed despite how both endings did indeed differ from each other in the outcome of the war itself.

However, Kawamori has at least been consistent over the years on remembering which characters he can bring back for what in the event he does a cameo. Meaning, he's at least aware of how timelines work in a vacuum.

[Tak]

Well, if you want a not-so-serious answer, this question regarding Max's age did come up during the airing of Macross 7. When asked why Max was able to retain his youth after all these years, Kawamori's reply was basically "well, he is a genius..."

As for extending human lifespan via Vajra blood, I don't recall that was ever a thing. Grace & co basically kept a copy of their conscious in Super-Dimension Space and send it to the next host whenever they saw fit. This was based on existing technology within the Macross-verse.

- Tak

[charles883]

Okay here first 5 minues of Delta movie

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UoU1LF55dAw&t=201s

I heard Delta Movie 2 is very well received as majority of fan says its as good or Better than Frontier Movie 2.

[Jingdot]

JP Twitter is once again not spoiling anything - they're really good at keeping secrets.

I've read the same as charles883 - it has been really well received so far, many people are watching it a second time. But I'm kind of afraid of what's going to happen since literally all of the comments are saying they had to cry so much that they recommend bringing a towel or a lot off tissues for new people watching the film :/ Also Minori-sans tweet is worrying me kind of...

[HirouKeimou]

Originally Posted by Jingdot

JP Twitter is once again not spoiling anything - they're really good at keeping secrets.

I've read the same as charles883 - it has been really well received so far, many people are watching it a second time. But I'm kind of afraid of what's going to happen since literally all of the comments are saying they had to cry so much that they recommend bringing a towel or a lot off tissues for new people watching the film :/ Also Minori-sans tweet is worrying me kind of...

There's spoilers for it everywhere if you look hard enough, but it also kind of depends on what you're looking for in general. Because quite a number of people have given rough details of the final battle, the new fighters, and who (or what, essentially) the new singers are. However, if you're meaning towards characters, well... I'll try to summarize the ones I did find:

Spoiler for The collection I could find or at least mostly confirm...:

- The revival of the Immelman Dance
- The Imperial Knights have now sided with Delta and even kill off bad guys on the side (in fact, a couple of people have said at least Bogue kills off a higher grade enemy towards the final rush)
- The battleship has an AI programmed directly to combat Walkure (or that's how I read it)
- Mirage is still around and valid but aside from her combat scenes, no one has said if she received more growth or not
- And, of course, the biggest spoiler hidden within a spoiler here,

Spoiler for Freyja's fate.:

Freyja dies. She confesses her feelings via song (what Japanese Twitter refers to as her "love song"), and essentially sacrifices herself for everyone else. And a new Star Singers is born with a rune similar to hers that Hayate apparently decides to raise.

To be honest, there's so many spoilers for the final battle, and yet so few for any of the characters, even side characters who arguably receive little screen time as it is. Regardless, if anyone has more spoilers to add or context, be my guest. But I have hidden these behind as many Spoiler tags as I can, so please heed them if you don't want to read spoilers.

[Jingdot]

My laptops broken so I guess I couldn't look thorough enough but

Spoiler for WHAT:

They really killed my baby off? I just got some spoilers from somewhere else too but that's just so sad... Now I know why everyone had to cry so much - I'll probably do the same when I'll get to see the movie. It's really hard to let it sink in that they really let her die. I kind of expected it for her because she loves singing and once said that she'll sing until her rune will run out but I'm still heartbroken about it.

Thanks for telling me!