[SE Change] When Kira Joins ZAFT...

[SoldierOfDarkness]

DSSD (Deep Space Survey and Development Organization) is a neutral organization established for the purpose of "advancing the frontier" from survey and development of regions beyond the orbit of Mars

Pretty sure this is what they listed.

[Renegade334]

From Oxford's Compendium, Ninth Edition:
- "Organisation: an organized body, esp. a business, government department, charity, etc."
From The Free Dictionary by Farlex
- "the persons (or committees or departments etc.) who make up a body for the purpose of administering something;"
- "a group of people who work together"

As Tak said, as soon as a group of people start working together - and there is no point denying this since there are obvious signs of cooperation and planning (the Factory, TSA fleet, etc) - and for a common purpose or a common goal, then it is elegible for the title of 'organisation'.

Unless you mean to say, 'group of organisations'. Go semantics and whatnot. Gotta love them.
Or does group fit your tastes better?
Oxford Compendium:
Group:
- "A number of persons or things located close together, or considered or classed together."
- "A number of people working together or sharing beliefs, e.g. part of a political party."

[Deacon Blues]

Perhaps I should have used the term faction instead. Terminal is merely a name applied to the private sector groups such as DSSD and what not. Everyone seems to think that their this renegade faction all hyped up to take power.

[Tak]

From the official Stargazer website:

（Deep Space Survey and Development Organization――通称ＤＳＳＤ）は、火星軌道以遠領域の探査および開発を目的に設立された機関である。地球連合、プラント、非同盟中立国家群が共同で設立に参画した組織で、地球連合、ザフトの両陣営に対して中立かつ特別の権限を持つ。その基本理念は「フロンティアの前進」

(Deep Space Survey and Development Organization AKA DSSD) is an Organization established for the purpose of exploring territories beyond Mars. It is an organization composed by the support of the Earth Alliance, Plant and other non-aligned neutral countries, it holds a special neutral priviliage between the factions of Alliance and ZAFT. Its primary objective is to 'Advance the frontiers'.

How clear cut you want this to be? I dunno.

Originally Posted by Deacon Blues

Everyone seems to think that their this renegade faction all hyped up to take power.

Not everyone think that way. Certainly I don't. I personally never suggested that they are there to assume power. I merely implied they have the power to do so. Nonetheless, I clearly stated it would be utterly uncharacteristic for Lacus/Kira and co to assume any forms of political power beyond the position of mediation.

- Tak

[hanxthre]

Originally Posted by Deacon Blues

Perhaps I should have used the term faction instead. Terminal is merely a name applied to the private sector groups such as DSSD and what not. Everyone seems to think that their this renegade faction all hyped up to take power.

To the point they try and rationalize Kira somehow having an equal ranking that would give him a white-coat thru TERMINAL. As if a rouge faction can just blend in with the national military because some Clyne loyalists pish-poshed a unit of nobody's we've never seen once. If we are to believe this then the janitor who swept up Strike-Freedom warehouse dust should also get a military ranking since he was apart of the all powerful TERMINAL.

[Tak]

Originally Posted by hanxthre

To the point they try and rationalize Kira somehow having an equal ranking that would give him a white-coat thru TERMINAL. As if a rouge faction can just blend in with the national military because some Clyne loyalist pish-poshed a unit of nobody's we've never seen once. If we are to believe this then the janitor who swept up Strike-Freedom warehouse dust should also get a military ranking since he was apart of the all powerful TERMINAL.

Try not to get this over your head. I sincerly believe that Kira in a whitey will have little bearings on ZAFT personnel. Nonetheless, it would make sense if Kira is in some way a commander of certain TERMINAL forces/squad/fleet. After all, the TERMINAL is composed of mostly ex-ZAFT members, and it would make sense if Kira wore a whitey as a representation of their authority.

However, the Terminal won the Second War. If they wanted to give Kira an equavalent rank of General as he had in ORB, they have the power to do so. you cannot ignore the fact that they now can do whatever they see fit. Who is there to oppose them when Lacus currently controls the known-universe's largest fleet? That is one scenerio.

The second scenerio, if Athrun is so readily forgiven by the people of ZAFT, I don't see why they cannot do the same for Kira, especially considering the latter's credentials as a pilot, and survivor of both wars. Rank or no rank, when you take his experiences into account, its difficult to ignore.

However, the latter two scenerios are highly uncharacteristic of both Kira and Lacus.

- Tak

[hanxthre]

What I'm saying Tak, if you want to look at this in a pure Cartoon sense I can understand that. But if you wanna look at this in any type of realistic sense I can't get down with you on this. The people of ZAFT who had there official rankings did a great job. They totally destroyed BLUE COSMOS and LOGOS (EAF aswell)...They had very few loses with the exception of the Game-genie episode called Final Plus. For the most part they kicked ass! Just because you lose to TERMINAL you can't automatically intergrate these people into the national level of command. Lacus or no Lacus. When they won they didnt take over a nation like Hitler. They didn't cripple the government of ZAFT per se, they just beat down the chairman's pimp-crib. They don't have the POWER you think they have. Now Fukuda can chose to do what he pleases and we all will have to accept it but I can't support these people switching factions and sides like haro batteries. It just isn't realistic to any degree. Regardless of what you think TERMINAL did, they can't just ride roughshot. Who knows if the basis of TERMINAL is littered with politicians and strategists (People who might re-intergrate decently) or just haxor geeks with loads of cash? If we knew 1 iota of what TERMINAL really is maybe I'd be a bit more pasive about this, but unless they are pulling pistols on the ZAFT coucil regardless of their helping or hurting (depending on what side you support) they can't just be simply integrated and given rank.

After all, the TERMINAL is composed of mostly ex-ZAFT members

Andy Waldfelt (formerly of the Orb underground crew), DiCasta (Lacus fanboy), who else? I could have sworn everyone on the AA and every vessel other than ETERNAL fought as Orb representatives. Who made Strike Freedom and Infinite Justice? I've never seen or heard of them. Your just conforming to this view IMO. We'll just agree to disagree at this point because I just find it difficult to accept things with zero explanations or evidence.

[Obi-Wan]

Originally Posted by Deacon Blues

Oh for the love of god... Terminal is not an organization! It is just like DSSD! RAWR!

Don't worry, some people are just destined to get their shit wrong. Just like the redcoat/whitecoat shit that's being spread all around this thread, and like me using Savior because it's in the R1 dvd (and my overwhelming hate for British English spellings), and like how Zanejin thinks "Andorew" is Waltfeld's intended name even though it's a blatantly obvious typo of Andrew. You just have to sit back and let idiocy run its course.

[Tak]

Originally Posted by hanxthre

What I'm saying Tak, if you want to look at this in a pure Cartoon sense I can understand that. But if you wanna look at this in any type of realistic sense I can't get down with you on this. The people of ZAFT who had there official rankings did a great job. They totally destroyed BLUE COSMOS and LOGOS (EAF aswell)...They had very few loses with the exception of the Game-genie episode called Final Plus. For the most part they kicked ass! Just because you lose to TERMINAL you can't automatically intergrate these people into the national level of command. Lacus or no Lacus. When they won they didnt take over a nation like Hitler. They didn't cripple the government of ZAFT per se, they just beat down the chairman's pimp-crib. They don't have the POWER you think they have. Now Fukuda can chose to do what he pleases and we all will have to accept it but I can't support these people switching factions and sides like haro batteries. It just isn't realistic to any degree. Regardless of what you think TERMINAL did, they can't just ride roughshot. Who knows if the basis of TERMINAL is littered with politicians and strategists (People who might re-intergrate decently) or just haxor geeks with loads of cash? If we knew 1 iota of what TERMINAL really is maybe I'd be a bit more pasive about this, but unless they are pulling pistols on the ZAFT coucil regardless of their helping or hurting (depending on what side you support) they can't just be simply integrated and given rank.

LOL. I am in basic agreement with you (And you just had to stab me right in the heart, ow man, ow... PAIN!).

If you read my previous posts, I -do- on numerous occassions doubted the military power of the Terminal, and I have also on numerous occassions stated that it was ORB Nationals who did most of the fighting. However, regardless of their limitations, Terminal -does- have some military power, evident as with more than half a dozen ZAFT battleships that joined the Eternal during the second war. There might be more, but we will never know, not until later CE incarnations.

As I said already, I do not believe Kira or Lacus can just waltz in and take over whatever they deem fit. Not only is that totally uncharacteristic of them, but it'd be downright impossible without starting another war.

What I do believe to be a possibility is that Kira might be in command of a portion of the Terminal military forces (as well as ORB forces). Once again, the Terminal does have a sizable fleet, no matter no small compared to ZAFT.

I doubt it is within Lacus or Kira's nature to take over PLANT, and at most, they exist only as an opposition political party (albeit one with unusual powers and privilages).

Originally Posted by hanxthre

Andy Waldfelt (formerly of the Orb underground crew), DiCasta (Lacus fanboy), who else? I could have sworn everyone on the AA and every vessel other than ETERNAL fought as Orb representatives. Who made Strike Freedom and Infinite Justice?" I've never see or heard of them. Your just conforming to this view IMO. We'll just agree to disagree at this point because I just find it difficult to accept things with zero explanations or evidence.

The DOM pilots, crews of the Eternal. Several battleships that joined Lacus during the Second War are all part of the Clyne Faction and Terminal.

According to an interview with the producers, when questioned how the S. Freedom and I. Justice could exist, they answered

A: Well, Lacus is rich, while her technical aid came from both ORB and Terminal.

I don't know how much truth of that you are willing to accept, but its a reference nonetheless.

- Tak

[Deacon Blues]

Don't bother arguing with hanx... it's wingdarkness on ban evasion. You can tell with the capitilization and what not and even the random bolding of words (not to mention the month gap in posting from his previous 'banned' period).

[hanxthre]

Sorry for the heartburn Well it's like TERMINAL's the shit no doubt, but ZAFT wasn't exactly losing and begging for table scraps before they interfered (They were leading the universe!)So from that standpoint it's like thanks for the help (If you can even say that), but we got things under control from a governmental and military standpoint. What's funny is that Durandal's only mistake in-terms of this arguement is that he fired neo genesis and hit some ZAFT vessels. Other than that ZAFT was still at his command even during the DESTINY PLAN decleration. Durandel seemed to be really admired by the higher representatives, I'd hate to see in the SE his legacy be reduced to a simple lunatic megalomaniac. I just think ZAFT minus Durandel is still a pretty solid governmental orginization. Obviously the peoples love for lacus will superceed basic thought, but not to the degree she need re-shape the military establishment.

However, regardless of their limitations, Terminal -does- have some military power, evident as with more than half a dozen ZAFT battleships that joined the Eternal during the second war. There might be more, but we will never know, not until later CE incarnations.

Do you mean Yzak and company from ep 50? I'd have to rewatch the episode but the only soldiers i saw that whole episode other than ETERNAL were Orb members. I don't remember seeing any TERMINAL members specifically other than I guess the DOMS.

Deacon Blues I joined in july. I've read that guys post, but I'm not him. Although you seem to do alot of detective work for internet users which seems a bit weird

[Tak]

Originally Posted by hanxthre

Do you mean Yzak and company from ep 50? I'd have to rewatch the episode but the only soldiers i saw that whole episode other than ETERNAL were Orb members. I don't remember seeing any TERMINAL members specifically other than I guess the DOMS.

Yzak and co. are not Terminal members. He is the most unpredictable element of the ZAFT military, not even Dully know what to do with him.

He might not win a duel against Kira, Athrun or even Shinn, but he -can- royally mess things up for everybody if he wanted to. He is someone you'd want as an ally, and most definately not an enemy.

During the later episodes, Andrew gave a coded msg stating: "The princess has returned, the Princess has returned", which led to a score of ZAFT battleships to rally behind the Eternal. One must make clear distinction between Terminal and ZAFT. They may originated from the same place, but they sure as heck aren't the same.

Speaking of Dully, he is just a politician through and through. He made some wise decisions, but he also made several bad ones. Unfortunately for him, his bad decisions haunted him to his grave. I am sure he never regretted what he did though, because he knew, if he is going to be in the game, he has to pay the price some day. He did just that.

- Tak

[SoldierOfDarkness]

Originally Posted by Tak

During the later episodes, Andrew gave a coded msg stating: "The princess has returned, the Princess has returned", which led to a score of ZAFT battleships to rally behind the Eternal. One must make clear distinction between Terminal and ZAFT. They may originated from the same place, but they sure as heck aren't the same.
- Tak

Weren't there also EAF warships rallying behind them as well?

[Renegade334]

^ There were (in one of the MSV books - the one where the Murasame with the multilock railgun appeared - I think there also were news about an EA Zamzazah and a Gellsghe allying themselves with Terminal for the final battle) but Tak's point was to prove that ZAFT's participation in Terminal didn't limit itself to Eternal and its crew...plus the Factory.

BTW, Obi-Wan, 'redcoat', although it might sound ridiculous to some ears, happens to be an actual word that is even found inside Oxford's dictionary - and it was most used by Americans (Paul Revere's warning that 'the redcoats are coming' is particularly well-known) during the Independence War. Although at that time it just referred to the British soldiers wearing red coats, I don't see why we can't use that term here again. But then again, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah...ZAFT and British empire just ain't the same. My bad, my bad...just blame me for coining 'whitecoat' and the rest. Sorry for the anachronism, too.

[_X12A_Testament]

The ZAFT uniform has a Coat! The definition includes hanging below the waist and also "coattails" are on the uniform as well. If you can't distinguish between a coat and a jacket, at least you must recognize the coattail.

Since they are ranked by color, it makes perfect sense to use the ____-coat reference.

[Obi-Wan]

First, ZAFT's uniforms aren't coated, and second, every time in the series when it is said, it's said "ZAFT RED (zafuto reddo)" in English. The only anomaly is in ep 21 of GSD when Auel says to Sting "Hey he's wearing the red uniform! (Oi, akafuku daze)" when Athrun shows up with Shinn to return Stella.

I'm certainly not blaming you for starting the -coat thing. That was started quite a long time ago by the infamously shitty fansub team HaroTori, and unfortunately many people downloaded their stuff and have regurgitated it tenfold. Another thing they started that bugs me to no end is "EAF." Short for Earth Alliance Forces (Chikyuu rengou gun), he Earth Alliance military is seldomly referred to by their formal name. Nine times out of ten, the term used is simply just Chikyuu gun, or Earth Forces.

I'm definitely not singling you out, but rather singling out overpopularized, incorrect fan terminology in general. I'm kind of anal about it but it seriously gets under my skin.

[_X12A_Testament]

Dude, what do you call a long article of clothing that hangs belong the waist and has coattails? No one is saying it is the official name, but it is a fitting description of the uniform.

:: Latches onto Obi-wan and self destructs ::

[Tak]

@Obi-Wan *Shrug* I don't see why you have to make a big fuss out of this.

Personally, I tend to use the term 'Fed' or 'Feddie' when describing Earth forces. I know, its a UC term, but old habits die hard. Besides, two factions out of three of the Alliance are named Atlantic Federation and Eurasian Federation respectively, making them 'FEDDIES' anyway. That and it sure as heck a lot easier to type than E A F (all capitalized. Three letters, 'Fed' surely beats having to press that annoying shift button!) or Earth Alliance, or Earth that, Earth this... etc.

But thats just me.

And red uniform or ZAFT red sounds crappy in a sentence, unless you are speaking Japanese. Not to mention red coat is much easier to type than 'red uniform' or 'ZAFT red'. Once again, laziness prevails.

- Tak

[Arimfe]

This is what I want to see in a new series:

*Kira, Shinn and Athrun enters atmosphere with their gundams*
Kira: "FOR ZAFT!!!!!"
Shinn:: "FOR ZAFT!!!!!"
Athrun: "FOR ZAFT!!!!"

That would be so ownage

And just imagine that with the new stargazer op running in background lol

[Obi-Wan]

Originally Posted by Tak

And red uniform or ZAFT red sounds crappy in a sentence, unless you are speaking Japanese. Not to mention red coat is much easier to type than 'red uniform' or 'ZAFT red'. Once again, laziness prevails.

Well, applying the term redcoat, which in every dictionary I've thusfar referenced only applies it as a slanderous term for British soldiers during the American Revolution sounds crappy too. Let's complete the set by calling Orb "the vietcong" and the Earth Forces "Spartans," or a host of any other historically specific terms that don't belong in GSD. I wouldn't have a problem with it if ZAFT soldiers in the series didn't specifically refer to the red uniform wearing soldiers as "Reds." That seems to hint that in some official sense, ZAFT acknowledges that branch as their military as Red as a special certification of some kind. No other rank they have is referenced by the color of its uniform, hence why the term "whitecoat" is stupid. Aside from the Reds, every other uniform seems to carry a certain rank: green=regular military, black=unit captain (Ades), unit/ship commander (Rau, Yzak). Given that, I think the term Red is an appropriate name for the uniform since they're ace pilots and the other uniforms are NOT referred to by their color.

But I can't stop this from snowballing so you all may as well just go on saying it while I sit back and laugh. I use Stella, Durandal, Savior, etc. while other use Stellar, Dullindal, Saviour so it's not like I'm above breaking the cycle or doing my own thing. I'm just pointing out that it's odd to use redcoat due to it being a historical allusion and ZAFT not actually calling their soldiers that in the show.