Good Ending (GE)

[Who]

Originally Posted by TrueKnight

I had my suspicion the author being a woman and all. The story is just way too girly and naive to be considered made from a guy's point of view. Let's see if its gonna end up like Hatsu Limited or not aka being hacked early.

Has a higher chance of staying in serialization as opposed to HL imo. Story is more focused and it's not in Jump. :d
Although the storyline from what I've seen is definitely a turnoff to a majority of audiences who are close-minded.

[Zwei]

Originally Posted by Who

Has a higher chance of staying in serialization as opposed to HL imo. Story is more focused and it's not in Jump. :d
Although the storyline from what I've seen is definitely a turnoff to a majority of audiences who are close-minded.

No, it's because they read seinen manga and have seen it a billion times already. And it also depends on how the story plays out, GTO was rather successful even though it carried out themes such as rape, drugs, violence, etc. etc. However, it wasn't really a romance manga like this one to begin with. I don't really think it's a case of "close-minded people", more like it needs time to be accepted in a shounen magazine by the audience for a shounen manga which carries out such themes.

I had a feeling the author is a woman. I must say, even though it's her first manga, she seems very talented.

[Who]

Originally Posted by Zwei

No, it's because they read seinen manga and have seen it a billion times already. And it also depends on how the story plays out, GTO was rather successful even though it carried out themes such as rape, drugs, violence, etc. etc. However, it wasn't really a romance manga like this one to begin with. I don't really think it's a case of "close-minded people", more like it needs time to be accepted in a shounen magazine by the audience for a shounen manga which carries out such themes.

I had a feeling the author is a woman. I must say, even though it's her first manga, she seems very talented.

What I say by close minded is more of my own opinion and what I've seen. May not necessarily be true but from what I asked around of people who read this as well.

[Darknemo2000]

Originally Posted by Who

Has a higher chance of staying in serialization as opposed to HL imo. Story is more focused and it's not in Jump. :d
Although the storyline from what I've seen is definitely a turnoff to a majority of audiences who are close-minded.

Well calling someone close-minded is way too harsh and rather close-minded itself.

Because frankly when you come to a restaurant and pay for the services and menu you think it will provide what you have paid for but then the label turns out wrong, and instead of chicken soup you get mushroom salads... And when you try to protest waitress comes and waves it off saying that you are too 'close-minded' or picky...

Or maybe a better allegory would be coming to an expensive restaurant and ordering something that has an interesting name to it and you get a nice appetizer and all is fine, but in the end you get a simple hot-dog that you can get in every snack-bar for much cheaper price. But you cannot say you were actually tricked since you never knew what it will be about nor were told in clear terms, you just judged from the former diners you had and from the place itself that this one would be something that this place usually serves...

I think it is understandable for some to feel disappointed and I would not call it close-mindedness, rather - just an irritation over the order not matching the expectations...

[aliasxn]

Originally Posted by Darknemo2000

Well calling someone close-minded is way too harsh and rather close-minded itself.

Because frankly when you come to a restaurant and pay for the services and menu you think it will provide what you have paid for but then the label turns out wrong, and instead of chicken soup you get mushroom salads... And when you try to protest waitress comes and waves it off saying that you are too 'close-minded' or picky...

I think it is understandable for some to feel disappointed and I would not call it close-mindedness, rather - just an irritation over the order not matching the expectations...

Exactly! There are things you expect to see in a story and things you don't, that's what the goddamn labels are for, so you know what to look for and what to avoid. The female leads going out with the playboy bishounen ain't gonna sit well with a shounen audience.

[Rainrir]

I don't think it is a case close-mindedness or "seeing it a billion times in seinen already". Alot of seinen have "those scenes", but they are just there for eye-candy and rarely important to the plot at all. Usually, it doesn't really hit so close to reality

I think the problem is that it's just like a bolt out of the blue from nowhere, especially people who picked up the series around chapter 6. Many people didn't expect a development like this, and are floored by it. So in a sense, it is a kind of "Shocking Swerve". But its a smart move, alluding to it will probably be a good way to test fan reaction early, rather than have it drop like an anvil when the series progresses further (possibly breaking the fanbase in two). There are just too many details that are unclear to really understand what really happened. So its a plot hook of sorts.

I never understood the backlash (there wasn't much of one in the earlier case. The other one...on the other hand...), since most of the longer time fans have already wonderd what was up with Yuki since Day 1. It is to be expected she has some kind of unusual experience or reasons (early on the "School Days" thing is being throw around alot) behind her helping Utsumi.

As for a certain someone's situation...

Spoiler:

people get dumped all the time right, its pretty common in schoolyard romances? At least Shou's choosing of Keito makes some sense and has a sembience of reality to it. Utsumi likes Shou alot, but they aren't really a couple no matter how you look at it. Shou only has budding feelings for Utsumi and not the full-on crush she has for Keito...not to mention the fact that she knew Keito for far longer. She and Utsumi never even passed the "first date" checkpoint.

Finally, the plot isn't over and who knows what will happen next?

In a weird way, people caring about what happened to Utsumi (and the girls) indicates that the characters are likable and people actually care about them. So bizarrely, the rage is a form of love IMHO.

[Darknemo2000]

Originally Posted by Rainrir

IBut its a smart move, alluding to it will probably be a good way to test fan reaction early, rather than have it drop like an anvil when the series progresses further (possibly breaking the fanbase in two). There are just too many details that are unclear to really understand what really happened. So its a plot hook of sorts.

Yeah, they can even make it not being Yuki at all but someone really close, whose betrayal felt like done on herself specially if she witnessed it, because we never see the actual face of the girl who is getting banged in those flashbacks... we just logically assume it is Yuki, but it is still rather unclear when one thinks about it...

I think it will not suffer as badly as HL or at very least it won't be as fast cut - for once audience is bit more mature, for seconds the magazine is not WSJ, who are infamous for treating their mangakas like crap (maybe because they have a big number of other mangakas who are ready to take the 'losers' place).

[Who]

Close minded was too "harsh" a word, I'll admit, but really, I've run out of word choices as my lexicon's limited but if there's no way of convincing the people in question to try giving the series a bit more chance before they drop it altogether, then I really dunno what to say about them. But I guess nemo put it into words better for me.

Edit:
People in question meaning people I know in real life. Not speaking about everyone else.

[Zwei]

Originally Posted by Rainrir

I don't think it is a case close-mindedness or "seeing it a billion times in seinen already". Alot of seinen have "those scenes", but they are just there for eye-candy and rarely important to the plot at all. Usually, it doesn't really hit so close to reality

It's not uncommon to see rape and cheating girlfriends in a seinen manga. It's obviously relevant to the plot. I didn't get your "eye candy" perception however. If by "those scenes" you mean rape and they are just there for eye-candy and rarely important to the plot, then I disagree; they're not visually appealing at all.

I think the problem is that it's just like a bolt out of the blue from nowhere, especially people who picked up the series around chapter 6. Many people didn't expect a development like this, and are floored by it. So in a sense, it is a kind of "Shocking Swerve". But its a smart move, alluding to it will probably be a good way to test fan reaction early, rather than have it drop like an anvil when the series progresses further (possibly breaking the fanbase in two). There are just too many details that are unclear to really understand what really happened. So its a plot hook of sorts.

It was quite surprising however I don't really think it was a test. The reaction was obviously predictable and this is coming from someone who doesn't live in Japan, so I don't see how the "author" who lives in Japan didn't see the reaction coming. Depending on how the author decides to play things out, it could be a smart move or it could backfire completely to the point of no return. There are certain preconditions that have to be taken beforehand, for example; "We still don't know if it was consensual or rape", but I'm certainly sure going by either these two, there will be two different reactions.

Besides, I'm still waiting for the scanlators to catch up with ch. 11 and see what the hell happened.

[Rainrir]

The way I see it, the reaction is more because it might have happened to a "main girl(s)" than anything to do with seeing it everywhere in seinen and going "not again!". I was trying to allude to the fact that what happened alot in seinen has no bearing to what happens here. The nature of what happened in GE is fundermentally different as other seinen series because:

Spoiler:

Seinen usually has raped girls or cheating girlfriends as side characters. Or even one-shot characters. There is a strong adversion to portraying female leads to be anything less than being a little prudish when it comes to sexual stuff. (The worse case is that the main female lead in a certain seinen manga is a....er..prostitute, but she is portrayed with a heart of gold and forced to do what she does).

The reaction is so strong because stuff like that rarely happens to the main girl(s),even in seinen, who the audience is supposed to empathise with. I am sure the readers empathise or sympathise the characters in GE. Hence, there is some backlash as a result. However, the backlash against what happened to Yuki is relatively mild from what I gather. The fallout from Shou is much, much greater. Then again, Shou is NOT YET Utsumi's girlfriend...so I don't see why everyone raged like the caught a pair of adulterors.

Eye candy marker does apply to those scenes (rape or not), because the explicit detail some seinen authors go at it sometimes, and how often these scenes are superfluous to the plot. Regardless of what you (and me, really!) feel, the scenes are drawn with explicit detail and present in the book for a reason. I would hazard a guess to say that it attracts a certain demograph...or they are doing it for the "art" (haha, right).

Look on the bright side, the backlash isn't as vocal and idiotic as Kannagi levels. That incident made me question the mental stability of moe-moe fans.

As for the test thing, it is really just meta-speculation on what the author is thinking. In any case, I just think its better to reveal (or allude) it early than to drop the bomb after the series has been running for some time. This prevents split fanbases because fans that can't take it will stop following the series early on. Also prevents editors from foaming in the mouth when the series takes an unexpected turn right in the middle (weekly shounen serials usually have editors hate that sort of thing).

[Zwei]

Originally Posted by Rainrir

The way I see it, the reaction is more because it might have happened to a "main girl(s)" than anything to do with seeing it everywhere in seinen and going "not again!". I was trying to allude to the fact that what happened alot in seinen has no bearing to what happens here.

I was also refering to the "main girls" in seinen. As an avid seinen reader, I've seen it often where the "main girl" was either raped or lost her virginity to someone else other the main character, that's what I was talking about and not other side characters which are most of the time insignifcant to the subject unless they are also main love interests. However, you rarely see this in shounen because it's a shounen manga, which tends to draw different readers and is aimed particulary at younger audience.

The reaction is so strong because stuff like that rarely happens to the main girl(s),even in seinen, who the audience is supposed to empathise with. I am sure the readers empathise or sympathise the characters in GE. Hence, there is some backlash as a result. However, the backlash against what happened to Yuki is relatively mild from what I gather. The fallout from Shou is much, much greater. Then again, Shou is NOT YET Utsumi's girlfriend...so I don't see why everyone raged like the caught a pair of adulterors.

No, part of the reaction is because Weekly Shounen Magazine is the 2nd most selled magazine behind Weekly Shounen Jump in Japan, so It will obviously draw unnecessary attention over it. I've read dozens of seinen with this particular subject in the matter however it didn't draw this much attention, mostly because it's not that popular in the magazine it's published in or seinen manga tends to draw less attention. The other reason the reaction was "strong"(I don't know how people took it to be honest, I'm just assuming) it's because it's a shounen manga which is published in a shounen magazine aimed at shounen readers. We've all seen it before in a particular shounen and how much preconception conjecture it caused, take for example; Kannagi.

Personally speaking, it didn't even bother me that much because I feel there weren't enough chapters to help me symphatize with the characters. It did surprise me obviously.

[aliasxn]

Just out of curiosity, what happened in Kannagi?

[Zwei]

Originally Posted by aliasxn

Just out of curiosity, what happened in Kannagi?

Nagi had a boyfriend in the past and fans assumed she isn't a virgin anymore which resulted in a little controversy.

[TrueKnight]

Originally Posted by Who

Although the storyline from what I've seen is definitely a turnoff to a majority of audiences who are close-minded.

What? Close-minded? Had my fair share on relationships in real life whether dump or being dumped, with people around work, clients younger and older, including with divorced women over their 40s along with their kids. Maybe you have far more experience in life for this sort of thing to say that people who read GE are ‘close minded’.

So far I consider GE story to be retard. I don’t mind about the slutty bitch girl on chapter 9 because in real life young girls often after guys with sex experience just for the fling and to look cool ‘hey I’m good at bed, so it’s understandable. What I don’t like is how the author set up the main guy, because it seems the main guy is geared up to be more like a female dream-guy who is sensitive, pansy and naïve rather than a male-driven hormone (i.e other story like Orange blabla).

[Who]

Originally Posted by TrueKnight

What? Close-minded? Had my fair share on relationships in real life whether dump or being dumped, with people around work, clients younger and older, including with divorced women over their 40s along with their kids. Maybe you have far more experience in life for this sort of thing to say that people who read GE are ‘close minded’.

So far I consider GE story to be retard. I don’t mind about the slutty bitch girl on chapter 9 because in real life young girls often after guys with sex experience just for the fling and to look cool ‘hey I’m good at bed, so it’s understandable. What I don’t like is how the author set up the main guy, because it seems the main guy is geared up to be more like a female dream-guy who is sensitive, pansy and naïve rather than a male-driven hormone (i.e other story like Orange blabla).

Actually, wasn't targetting you or other users at all. I meant more toward people who I know in my own life who would throw this kind of story down (and they have) over the recent course of events and not give it a further shot.
I still apologize if you got that notion from my post even when I explained it a few posts up.

[Rainrir]

I was also refering to the "main girls" in seinen. As an avid seinen reader, I've seen it often where the "main girl" was either raped or lost her virginity to someone else other the main character, that's what I was talking about and not other side characters which are most of the time insignifcant to the subject unless they are also main love interests. However, you rarely see this in shounen because it's a shounen manga, which tends to draw different readers and is aimed particulary at younger audience.

Maybe I am reading the wrong types of seinen. Where do you get your seinen? Business Jump? Morning? Ultra Jump? Young Animal?? I do read quite a bit of manga and it doesn't happen all that often. I suppose I was kinda lucky to not see that many seinen with such events.

Kannagi and GE don't exactly target the same core audience. Comic Rex is not your mainstream shonen magazine. It has a distinct slant towards gaming and moe moe crowds. That is the niche it occupies, its different from Weekly Shounen Magazine...which targets the older spectrum of general shounen readers. The fallout, from what I see, is mostly due to the core demograph that it targets. On the other hand, response on GE's recent development is rabid from some people (Shou that B****, for example), but its not reached the idiocy that characterised the kannagi crowd.

So far I consider GE story to be retard. I don’t mind about the slutty bitch girl on chapter 9 because in real life young girls often after guys with sex experience just for the fling and to look cool ‘hey I’m good at bed, so it’s understandable. What I don’t like is how the author set up the main guy, because it seems the main guy is geared up to be more like a female dream-guy who is sensitive, pansy and naïve rather than a male-driven hormone (i.e other story like Orange blabla).

I dunno. Utsumi is pretty mature for a male lead, especially considering he is a 16-17 year old boy. Where is he being a pansy? Care to elaborate? Utsumi manned up relatively fast with just a bit of prodding from Yuki and he already decided to confess. The only reason why it didn't work because he was beaten to the punch. Don't forget that he is just a regular kid with no prior romance experience. He has his own doubts and fears when it comes to trying to be adequent in the eyes of the person he loves. I have seen 16 year old boys react alot worse to things like that and being more "pansy-ish" in approaching a girl he likes.

[TrueKnight]

Originally Posted by Rainrir

Where is he being a pansy? Care to elaborate? Utsumi manned up relatively fast with just a bit of prodding from Yuki and he already decided to confess. The only reason why it didn't work because he was beaten to the punch. Don't forget that he is just a regular kid with no prior romance experience. He has his own doubts and fears when it comes to trying to be adequent in the eyes of the person he loves. I have seen 16 year old boys react alot worse to things like that and being more "pansy-ish" in approaching a girl he likes.

That’s the point, I don’t like him. Let see, didn’t man up when facing problem with his girl, acting all sensitive with no self-confidence, his inner thoughts seems like more geared towards female audience with almost zero male companionship, only accompanied with a bishie and a girl. No guy friends to discuss pr0n or girls with  already fail. And sorry if our experience differs, but most of the kids I knew would either seek advice from other male friends or experienced bros, not from other girls while being tossed/played around.

I only up to the scanlation up to chapter 9. No I can’t read Japanese so I’m basing my judgment only on the above. So, sorry if I won’t take into account if anyone reading beyond 9 and then giving their opinion based on the latest raw chapters. Do that in spoiler tags or another forum.

[Darknemo2000]

Originally Posted by Rainrir

Maybe I am reading the wrong types of seinen. Where do you get your seinen? Business Jump? Morning? Ultra Jump? Young Animal?? I do read quite a bit of manga and it doesn't happen all that often. I suppose I was kinda lucky to not see that many seinen with such events.

Thats something I am interested to hear as well. Since though I read a lot of seinen myself I really have troubles remembering a lot of seinen titles where main girl interest is being shown getting raped or having sex with her boyfriend other than the main char.

Care to en-light me too, Zwei? What kind of magazines you read that show so many as you say cases similar to this? Yeah we all know of Bitter Virgin and so but the number I can think off is really small actually, even when we are talking about seinen. Usually you see side-characters getting raped or having sex.

Yeah in Josei's you see quite a number of girl sleeping around (or her male love interest do that) but again it is different category than seinen or shonen to begin with.

PS. Yuutai Nova doesn't count as the girl sleeping around though is an ex-girlfriend of the main character, is just a side-character.

Gekkoh is similar since main girl character is a revenge-slut - meaning she is using her body as a mean to get her revenge (or informaion). Yet she never really has sex, thogh she french-kissed or let grope her naked body for more men than it is possible to count and a few times had oral sex (never with the main male caracter) but even there the stuation is different and she is a virgin even if in many cases she wated to have sex and actually enjoyed other guys jamming their togues down her throat, but even so, by a lucky accident she is stil a virgin...

Yeah, in a lot of senens main female characters are not virgins but again - you usually never see their past experiences either, or it is vaguely told at best without 'visuals'...

So can you tell the titles of such theme seinens?

[Zwei]

Hmmm, well maybe I wasn't specific enough. It doesn't have to be visually shown whether she was raped or she's not a virgin anymore. However, there are alot of cases when in a seinen manga the main female is a virgin as well. It doesn't mean just because it's a seinen manga, then the main female character has to get raped or have sex with someone else, I just said that you commonly find these in a seinen manga where in a shounen manga is rarely.

So can you tell the titles of such theme seinens?

Where it's visually shown whether she was raped or she lost her virginity to someone else? I can name a few that come to my mind, however I have yet to keep track of what manga I'm reading unlike anime, so I can't name all the one's I've read;

Ciguatera
Chisa x Pon
Haru Yo Koi
Usotsuki Paradox
Knights
Golden Boy
Love Junkies
REC
Yellow Heart
Zero
Junk - Record of the Last Hero
Mon Seul

I might add a few more later, maybe.

[Arturro]

The problem with this manga is not with manga, but with readers. It's too soon to tell something definite, but reactions in this topic suggest that GE invited at first wrong kind of readers. By wrong readers I mean readers with different expectations and different set of rules (morals/ethic/etc.).

Zwei you've posted a lots of names of manga, I suppose those manga were unknow for majority of readers here. They (me included) don't read such manga. From that list I'm reading only Love Junkies, for me it's not seinen but comedy/soft hentai (BTW I've found it on hentai site). I've different expectations for hentai than for seinen or shounen manga.

There are two kinds of people (I'm simplifying!). Those who believe that sex is a part of love (ignore platonic love for a moment), and those who believe that sex and love are two different things. For the first group sleeping with someone another than partner is always cheating, sleeping without love is slutting/whoring, loosing virginity is something important and should be done only with someone loved. For the second group virginity is just a nuisance, sex with someone another than partner is not cheating if it was only incidental etc. Again, I'm simplifying, people are a little more complicated . People are changing with age, members of first group became more forgiving while members of second group starting to notice that it's hard to trust partner who is sleeping with other people. Of course most of people are somewhere inbetween those two groups.

People of first group won't like to read stories about people of second group and vice versa.

About mentioned Gekkoh. I'm not sure but I'm thinking author of Gekkoh is a woman. There is problem with definition of sex. For many years sociologist and sexuologist around the world had a problem. In anonymous questionaries males and females of same age were asked: How many sexual partners you have had? Males answered that they had almost twice more partner than females, what of course is impossible. Many theories tried to solve that problem (like: all males are lying, males did include paid sex and prostitutes weren't questioned, etc.). Not so far ago someone changed question. For females it was: How many sexual partners you have had?, for males it was: How many sexual partners you have had, only include those partner with whom vaginal penetration happened? And you know? Numbers of sexual partners were almost equal...